Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[roach]

Last time I checked, this was a Phoenix and Jean discussion.

And Ororo is hardly a goddess. More like a crazy lady who calls herself a goddess

any fan of Jean shouldnt be throwing the "crazy" word around

 

[javon]

Tell me about it! But sorry 4 da Storm disussion..continue.

 

[D-scythe]

any fan of Jean shouldnt be throwing the "crazy" word around

Actually, if I was a Jean fan, that would've been the biggest touche ever

 

[Intheknow101]

Which ones out of them would be good to get as i would like to get more comics, with like development or about Jean really (sorry about the post looking stupid not all the buttons or keys work on my college keyboard.

Phoenix Endsong is great and Ultimate X-Men is good at times. The End can be good, depends on if you're into Claremont's verbose and often continuity heavy plots. You can always go for single back issues as well. Like X-Men 53 where Jean confronts Onslaught and delves into Xavier's mind, UXM 334 where she encounters Juggernaut, X-Men 54 where she breaks the blocks in Juggernaut's head and finds out the truth, X-Men 28 where she lays the smack down on Sabretooth, Sabretooth:Bloodshot for a nice team up of the original X-Men where Jean owns Victor again.


Handoffate, like I stated a bazillion times, Jean doesn't have to be at White Phoenix levels. Green Phoenix/New X-Men is fine to which Superman and WW are comparable levels.

And Sebita we've been through this before, do you have a short term memory? Only Magneto would be able to create an EMP wave capable of flipping the earth on it's axis. The person you're alluding to wouldn't be able to do that. For that incident he caught Jean off guard as she showed compasison towards him(shows she's still human and can make mistakes), and it was power that he took many days to store. If Jean was on the defensive, it wouldn't have phased her considering she just came back from the sun which releases EMP's stronger than anything on earth.

 

[Valechan]

Who says Ororo can't do such emps??? Just because she is a hero and she doesn't want to flip the Earth's EMfield upside down doesn't mean she can. It is called ELECTROmagnetic field. Erik controls Magnetism, Ororo controls electricity. Just because only Claremont makes her do EMPs doesn't mean she can't use them on a gigantic scale. And btw, the EMP used on her was not big just "lethal" and Ororo could certainly do that if she pleased.

And btw it's not Sabretooth:Bloodshot, it's Sabretooth: In the Red Zone... and it was a kick-ass one-shot, I enjoyed it a lot.

 

[Intheknow101]

Who says Ororo can't do such emps??? Just because she is a hero and she doesn't want to flip the Earth's EMfield upside down doesn't mean she can. It is called ELECTROmagnetic field. Erik controls Magnetism, Ororo controls electricity. Just because only Claremont makes her do EMPs doesn't mean she can't use them on a gigantic scale. And btw, the EMP used on her was not big just "lethal" and Ororo could certainly do that if she pleased.

And btw it's not Sabretooth:Bloodshot, it's Sabretooth: In the Red Zone... and it was a kick-ass one-shot, I enjoyed it a lot.

Ummm ok. Keep on believing Storm can create an EMP that can flip the world on it's axis. You can believe Storm can **** and the universe will quake for all I care. Fact is she's never done it and is not capable of flipping the world.

What made it lethal was the amount of power and immensity of it, and the fact that Jean was caught off guard, not just because it's an EMP. And like I said if Jean were on the defensive, it wouldn't have phased her. EMP from the sun>>>> EMP on earth

 

[roach]

who the "F" cares?????
Storm this and Jean that.
The X-men books are horrid right now with no direction and you guys are fighting over the crumbs. Jean is dead but will forever be dug up in crap books like Endsong, Warsong,Themesong, Lovesong , Rapsong and whatever else they decide to do and Storm went from team leader to Mrs. T'challa.

 

[Valechan]

In The End, her EMP covered the entire Chandilar planet. The potential it's there, she just hasn't used it.

And Roach... I wholeheartedly disagree. The X-Books are very much directed or at least they will be come July. I am looking very forward to this new line-ups and stories. And I have immensely enjoyed the X-Books since the Reload, perhaps Milligan's X-Men not so much, but Claremont and Whedon haven't let me down at all. I do have to agree that Crapsong and its imminent sequel are crap, but I'll buy them nonetheless.

 

[Intheknow101]

In The End, her EMP covered the entire Chandilar planet. The potential it's there, she just hasn't used it.

And Roach... I wholeheartedly disagree. The X-Books are very much directed or at least they will be come July. I am looking very forward to this new line-ups and stories. And I have immensely enjoyed the X-Books since the Reload, perhaps Milligan's X-Men not so much, but Claremont and Whedon haven't let me down at all. I do have to agree that Crapsong and its imminent sequel are crap, but I'll buy them nonetheless.

I don't remember her doing that in The End or anything worldwide from Storm, what issue? What exactly did her EMP do or accomplish? But merely covering a planet is different from flipping it. And in The End, it stated that her powers were degrading her nervous system as she got older and that's why she's on life support. So much for evolving, huh?

The End also says Jean is Phoenix Sebita and that she keys on passion for better or for worse. And that it's her human side that tempers her power. Jean also devours a sun and once again blocks a resulting supernova and all the heat and electromagnetic energies of such an act. A different universe but the laws still apply. EMP from the SUN>>>>Planetary
Or are you just picking and choosing what you like?

Roach, I agree with you. The books suck currently. Oversaturated mess. There are individual issues that are good, but overall the state of the franchise is in disarray moving from relaunch after relaunch.

 

[roach]

Roach, I agree with you. The books suck currently. Oversaturated mess. There are individual issues that are good, but overall the state of the franchise is in disarray moving from relaunch after relaunch.

sure there are gonna be new line ups and creative teams in July but I dont expect them to last until Sept. How long was Reload before it was messed with??? How long was Decimation?????

 

[Intheknow101]

sure there are gonna be new line ups and creative teams in July but I dont expect them to last until Sept. How long was Reload before it was messed with??? How long was Decimation?????

yep I agree. It's like one creative team change after the next. Worse yet the new teams don't even make sense and just scream fan fic. The X-Men have lost it. They used to place in the top 10 easily. Now they're lucky if Uncanny makes it into the top 10. It's been run into the ground. Instead of writers actually staying on for longer than several arcs, the new writer comes in and either writes characters out, or change characterization. THey don't feel like characters anymore, but wheels for Marvel to move on to the next arc to sell stories you can read in under 3 minutes.

And for all the fan fare that Joe Quesada makes about focus and trimming the x-line more he somehow manages to squeeze more and more books out of his @$$. Just like Decimation...instead of taking a nice oppurtunity to focus and cull the line with so many mutants losing their powers, we actually got more books from it further diluting the X-Men. I mean the 198, Sentinel Squad are just a few of the crap that spawned from the House of Crap.

 

[roach]

and Bru is writing Daredevil and Captain America. What if he pulls a Bendis and isnt right for team books??????
I hated his DG and am not looking forward to him being on the book.

 

[Intheknow101]

and Bru is writing Daredevil and Captain America. What if he pulls a Bendis and isnt right for team books??????
I hated his DG and am not looking forward to him being on the book.

I wasn't particularly fond of DG either. Such a massively needless retcon. And once again it painted Xavier as a prick. That and the recent Astonishing just about undermines everything he's been preaching for the last 30 years. Brubaker relies too much on dragging up some old story, just like he did on Captain America with The Winter Soldier/Bucky. I saw some previews for the latest Uncanny, the dialouge is rather meh.

But I wonder can we really blame Brubaker since according to him the idea spawned from the editors. Which leads me to another concern. Somewhere along the way the editors stopped editing(so many mistakes in the books) and became the writers.

 

[roach]

editors started writing when the realized people would buy anything with an X on the cover

 

[Intheknow101]

editors started writing when the realized people would buy anything with an X on the cover

It's sad but true. A part of me is glad Jean is currently inactive. It prevents the writers/editors from screwing with her. Like all characters Milligan has been writing I used to like (Iceman, Havok, and Polaris) but he turned me off them. And Claremont's Psylocke and Rachel show over in Uncanny doesn't help either. He has some sort of female strong woman warrior fetish and often makes his male characters (like Nightcrawler) nothing more than background noise to his "almighty superior" women.

 

[HandOfFate]

Should we go ahead an change the name of this thread to

"The OFFICIAL: Jean Grey/Phoenix Discussion Thread"

 

[BrianWilly]

I still can't get over how you can say this green phoenix and white phoenix stuff without laughing your butt off. What's next? Purple or Blue or Red alert Phoenix? Does she slip into the next stage only when its truly a life threatening situation?

You do realize that this is a comic book universe where people dress up in brightly-colored spandex to shoot lasers out of their eyes? Honestly, I'd think that it were a bit strange if colorful uniforms was all it took to get you laughing your butt off.

And, as others have already mentioned, the White Phoenix is not a new concept...it appeared way back in the heyday of Claremont's stories.

http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/400/cxmen43c8wt.jpg
http://img128.imageshack.us/img128/1610/cxmen43d1ec.jpg

So you are telling me you love scott and emma. You love gay beast. Wait gay to get back at Trish because you know all straight guys are running around doing that. You love all that?

Are you aware that Morrison's New X-Men run sold consistently in the monthly top five and invariably outsold all other X-Men titles going on at the time? Clearly, there were much more than a few people who loved all that.

Oh I get it phoenix has gone all madonna on us. Thats great for a fundamental aspect of the universe. Where does she find the time to pick up the texts?

http://www.barbelith.com/topic.php?id=11457
Again, nothing new.

It's interesting that some of the things that you continuously attack Morrison and Pak for are actually some of the most significant aspects of classic X-Men stories. If anything, it seems like they're the ones that have actually been paying attention to, respecting, and referencing the old stories. You refuse to accept that Jean is the Phoenix...and yet, Jean was originally the Phoenix. You mock her white costume and her connection to the Kabbalah...and yet, those elements have been featured in her stories long before you even started reading. Just who here is actually being disrespectful towards past writers and classic stories?

 

[Bastila]

One thing. i am kind of new to the comcics still reading them and how and why does she get the 'white' phoenix?

 

[BrianWilly]

In those panels above I posted, she is appearing as the White Phoenix after she nobly sacrificed herself to prevent more tragedy a la the D'Bari. She helps Death to build a proper afterlife for those souls, "fixing" the mess that she made and performing her rightful duty.

In Here Comes Tomorrow, she becomes the White Phoenix after Wolverine and the rest of the New, New, New X-Men bring her fractured consciousness out of Sublime's lies. She exorcises Sublime from Henry and proceeds to fix the dying universe by burning away something that didn't work.

In Phoenix: Endsong, she becomes the White Phoenix after the Stepford Cuckoos connect her mind with every single one of the X-Men, her family, and restore her sanity. She saves the X-Men from the Shi'ar event horizon black hole weapon, says goodbye to Scott, and then leaves to reclaim all of her lost pieces.

The ways that she becomes White Phoenix varies a bit each time, but are also incredibly comparable and basically lead up to the same result; in all of those instances, the White Phoenix state is achieved by gaining some sort of balance between her human self -- her connection with her family and friends -- and the Phoenix Force that she wields. And in all of those instance, after having become the White Phoenix, she is able to perform her true duties.

 

[aidol]

Well Jean isn't doing all of the killing....Phoenix Force is. Phoenix force is a power beyond any of the mutants of the entire universe. You can't blame something that the phoenix did on jean.

 

[Harlekin]

Yeah, we can. Phoenix=Jean.

 

[HandOfFate]

Yeah, we can. Phoenix=Jean.

True, that's what people keep saying. Crazy or not, Jean is still a killer of billions of beings.

 

[Intheknow101]

True, that's what people keep saying. Crazy or not, Jean is still a killer of billions of beings.

Funny how people seem to home in on the negative. Let's recall what Death himself said to Jean: "If you hang a balance, lass, to judge yourself...be sure to measure the countless lives saved as well."

I'm not saying that is an excuse for what she did, she was driven insane after all, but to say she's just a killer of a billion people while crazy pales in comparison to saving all that is not once, but at least twice. Every single life form in the universe was saved at one point by Jean.

Without her everything would have been destroyed by the M'Kranh. Again without her compassion, she could have let the universe just die instead of growing a new one in it's place.

 

[HandOfFate]

Funny how people seem to home in on the negative. Let's recall what Death himself said to Jean: "If you hang a balance, lass, to judge yourself...be sure to measure the countless lives saved as well."

If you say she the Phoenix Force then she is a killer of billions, its very simple.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying she can’t be forgiven for her action but we should not forget the sins she done in the past.

No matter how Marvel might try to write it, Jean is now the killer of billions of people.

She is the living embodiment of the statement “With great power, Comes Great responsibility”.

I'm not saying that is an excuse for what she did, she was driven insane after all, but to say she's just a killer of a billion people while crazy pales in comparison to saving all that is not once, but at least twice. Every single life form in the universe was saved at one point by Jean.

While she might have saved life, she also has taken life from the D’Bari and the life force of future generations.

 

[Intheknow101]

If you say she the Phoenix Force then she is a killer of billions, its very simple.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying she can’t be forgiven for her action but we should not forget the sins she done in the past.

No matter how Marvel might try to write it, Jean is now the killer of billions of people.

She is the living embodiment of the statement “With great power, Comes Great responsibility”.



While she might have saved life, she also has taken life from the D’Bari and the life force of future generations.

Of course Jean should be forgiven but always will remember what she has done. Who wouldn't? (She was legally insane and at least she didn't kill them on purpose as with many other X-Men or villian turned X-Men who killed for fun). And what of the people who pushed her there? Emma Frost while not directly responsible is never even questioned for her actions in corrupting Jean. And she's currently the headmistress.

Jean is also the salvation of every lifeform in the universe and all that is, which accounts for billions of billions if not more. She made up for what she did by helping Death build the afterlife for the D'bari where they can spend enternity in happiness.

Without Jean there wouldn't be any future generations, period.

Speaking of which, do we ourselves not slaughter millions of cows every year? Destroy billions of ants and insects? etc etc or is it ok or "not considered killing" because insects are considered pests? they feel pain too.

Xavier also killed millions, maybe more, of living beings when he destroyed a planet in the microverse.

Storm, indirectly disrupts the natural weather flow everytime she uses her powers to manipulate weather. Weather she calls from one place, means that place is deprived of that weather. How many living beings have died from that because she's screwing around with what they need? I doubt she goes around and fixes everything since if she spontaneous generated all her weather manipulations, fall out of diverting weather patterns wouldn't be an issue. (X-Men 77 or 78)

Wolverine killed an entire city once.

Jean's a murderer. Xavier's a murderer. Wolverine's a murderer. Cyclops is a murderer. Emma's a murderer. Storm's a murderer.

Jean didn't just save a life or even a billion lives. She saved ALL LIVES and everything in existence. TWICE+. You're trying to overstate her mistakes and undermine her achievements.