Comics Jean and the Phoenix Force

[aidol]

Why are you guys comparing Phoenix with Storm? I mean since jean doesn't have that much power to completely freeze atoms without phoenix you are comparing Storm with Phoenix even if you didn't know. Phoenix is beyond any other mutant or even being out there.

 

[Wolverazio]

If she wanted to she could phase too since she can slip her molecules around solid objects similar to how Kitty does it.

Shown in practice as Onslaught did it when he first revealed himself to the X-Men.

And since Jean is more powerful than Onslaught, it would seem to make it obvious that Jean can (and has) teleported.

Sorry...one reason I actually liked Onslaught, he did a lot of stuff that Jenix obviously can (but he actually did it so we could see).

 

[HandOfFate]

Um, scientifically, the applications of telekinesis is almost infinite. The ability to take away or impart kinetic energy on the atomic/sub-atomic level (or even lower) through telekinesis is without doubt one of the most powerful mutant powers ever. Hell, theoretically Jean can freeze time if she wanted to.

So long as a telekinetic is powerful enough, they can do anything, literally, anything, except magic.

Sigh...the good old days when people talked about Jean and not the power. Yet another example of god-like power making a boring character.

Anyway...

Phoenix Force and Galactus

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The Silver Surfer is also a murderer of worlds many times over. He chose to serve Galactus willingly and led him to various populated planets until he finally rebelled. Nowadays, he's considered a hero.

Only on a couple of worlds, most of the universe still distrust the Surfer. Also, the majority of people on Marvel's earth don't know the full extend of what Surfer did while as a herald of Galactus.

And what about the Hulk? It was revealed that, unsurprisingly, his rampages throughout the country led to the deaths of many, many people. He's still a Marvel superhero with his own fanbase.

Yeah that's why they just shoot his butt off into outer space.

Jean might repair the entire universe again or she could exterminate an entire species for being a genetic dead end.

That's not Jean/Phoenix Force's job. That the role of Galactus in the universe.

Like I said the water she brings to replace the energy she just used has to come from somewhere. She's unnaturally moving it. Water cycle takes time. She's messing with the balance of things and that has consequences. If it was a self correcting issue, we wouldn't have seen what happened to the death of the herds of animals.

This is pointless seeing that Storm can control the water cycle. Also, when did she cause the death of the herd of animals?

And she did it again, when she regrew a new future to replace the universe she had just cut away and allowed it to flourish.

I've talked about this on another board and I think she just changed Scott's mind, not regrew a new future as you say. She went back in time and changed a major moment in the universe.

okay...this thread was supposed to be how people think they can blame jean for the phoenix's actions. Jean isn't the Phoenix in reality...it entered her body because she is just about the only person strong enough to handle the phoenix's powers....phoenix force is not jean....they act as one but jean is the puppet and phoenix is the puppeter. You can't blame jean because she didn't do any of it on her own will...it was phoenix who killed all those people!

How I wish that was true and for almost 20 years it was, but it seems that some disagree with you..

 

[Valechan]

Sigh. We've been through this Sebita. Current Jean even has memories of doing it. And if it was really an alternate earth, then then reality that all the books are taking place in would be an alternate reality.

Javon, Storm manipulates weather patterns to conjure weather phenomena.

Let's take the simple road. Is that future EArth 616's future? Is that the way Earth 616 is going to be? Is it? No it isn't. Then, logically, it's an alternate future, it's an alternate reality, therefore it's not 616, therefore Jean 616 did not do it, even if she does have a semblance of a memory regarding it. It's just like HandofFate said, she merely nudged Scott to go on, alternate 15104 Jean sent her telepathy back in time using the M'Kraan (which is a nexus) and nudged Scott, nothing more, nothing less, creating the divergence point which makes her world an alternate reality. Just because Morrison knows not the workings of alternate realities and time travel and didn't put it in his book doesn't mean we don't know it also.

And cool pics HandofFate!! I love that battle. For me, the only one who truly holds claim to the title of Phoenix is Rachel

 

[Intheknow101]

Only on a couple of worlds, most of the universe still distrust the Surfer. Also, the majority of people on Marvel's earth don't know the full extend of what Surfer did while as a herald of Galactus.

Yeah that's why they just shoot his butt off into outer space.

That's not Jean/Phoenix Force's job. That the role of Galactus in the universe.



This is pointless seeing that Storm can control the water cycle. Also, when did she cause the death of the herd of animals?

I've talked about this on another board and I think she just changed Scott's mind, not regrew a new future as you say. She went back in time and changed a major moment in the universe.

How I wish that was true and for almost 20 years it was, but it seems that some disagree with you..

Let's not take one's opinion as fact. Jean has one of the most interesting backgrounds because of the metaphysical and comsic ties. She's a series of wonderful dichotomies. You may not enjoy it, but I and many others do.

Thanks for the Excalibur scans, which in context of Endsong, is a fragment of Jean. The shard even naturally appears in Jean's form.

That is her job as the fully realized White Phoenix. To be the harbringer of change and evolution, like the universe's immmune system burning away what doesn't work. Why? Because the comics says so. You may not like it, but it's fact.

A lot of people still trust Jean and a lot of people distrust her. She's feared and respected. Despite all the negatives, she's still a hero. It's even more interesting when not everyone is on good terms and trusts Jean.

The animal deaths Storm caused is shown in X-Men 77 or 78 during the psiwar.


It's not an alternate reality since what she did directly impacted the current X-Men series and basically all of Marvel. If that is true, than what you're currently reading month to month is a divergence. It was THE future until Jean changed it. It did happen or else we wouldn't be reading what we are right now. Jean didn't have just a glancing memory, she was experiencing it again and again, once more reinforcing the fact that the white hot room is outside of conventional space and time, and encompasses everything that is, was and will be. I trust Morrison more than you. Like stated below, she used her tk to control all the atoms of the universe and cut them away, and then regrow the universe she just cut away.

And Handoffate, it says in New X-Men 154 that telekinetic control of all those atoms isn't as easy as it sounds. Then we see Jean holding the entire universe in her hands. She does her Phoenix work, and Quetin tells her if she should regrow the universe SHE just cut away. There's not getting around it. Jean cut away an entire universe and regrew a new one in it's place. Messing with time, reality and consequently all the atoms in the universe, which is one of many applications of telekinesis.

Sebita, a part of Jean resided in Rachel. It's no coincidence that Rachel only became possessed with the power after she came in contact with the holoempathic crystal that has Jean's essence in it. That's why that part was able to protect Rachel even while she was unconcious. Very similar to when one of Jean's fragments possesssed Emma Frost, except Frost couldn't contain it without burning out for very long. Rachel could because she's Jean's daughter.

 

[BrianWilly]

I trust Morrison more than you.

Not just Morrison, incidentally; Pak and Claremont are also supporting what he reintroduced to the comics. Pak has done the whole Endsong tie-in, and Claremont makes it clear in recent and not-so-recent issues of Uncanny that Jean is the Phoenix's true avatar; he even has Rachel mention it, several times. You might disregard the continuity of one writer, and you might even disregard the continuity of two...but how willfully ignorant must you be in order to disregard the continuity of three?

If the Phoenix truly is responsible for the loss of future life, whatever the heck that means (how in the world do you kill something that isn't even born yet??), then the loss of future life is a natural, necessary aspect of the universe in order to sustain itself since the Phoenix is a natural, necessary aspect of the universe.

 

[Valechan]

Must I keep posting the HAndbooks where it clearly says it's an alternate reality and that Jean is merely a host? It's not just me, it's the majority of the X-FAndom, only you PHoenixFreaks fail to acknowledge what everyone else does.

 

[BrianWilly]

If it is the majority that believes this, which I highly doubt, then the majority is wrong and willfully ignoring very plainly and obviously-stated facts straight from the comics.

 

[Intheknow101]

Comics (the actual source of info) >>>>> than any second hand version which includes biases which the handbooks are not exception. They've included questionable things in the handbooks which include events from certain novels and once even a video game. All of which are not "canon" per se, and was merely up to the discretion of whoever was writing that particular bio. Even Marvel's web bios have a disclaimer that says info will be decided somtimes based on the mood of the "web guy." We've been through this Sebita. I'm tired of explaining to you over and over.

I'll let the comics speak for themselves. This is one of many panels from a recent issue of Uncanny.

Another even more recent issue had Rachel wondering why if the first foursaken came to earth, that while one force is appearing on earth, why is her mom not here? (a paraphrase) She is even holding the second holoempathic crystal that Jean made because she knew she was going to go.

And then you have Morrison's run which showed Jean was Phoenix. And then it's blatantly spelled out in Endsong. And best of all Claremont's original stories with Jean as well as the classic back ups, Inferno, and various issues throughout the years backing it all up and tying together.

Really dense or feigning ignorance; the world may never know.

 

[Harlekin]

Must I keep posting the HAndbooks where it clearly says it's an alternate reality and that Jean is merely a host? It's not just me, it's the majority of the X-FAndom, only you PHoenixFreaks fail to acknowledge what everyone else does.

And yet, that is logically impossible. Simple time travel theory would mean that we would now be following the adventures of the X-Men from a reality that is not 616.

 

[Optic Rage]

Must I keep posting the HAndbooks where it clearly says it's an alternate reality and that Jean is merely a host? It's not just me, it's the majority of the X-FAndom, only you PHoenixFreaks fail to acknowledge what everyone else does.

Wrong.

The majorty of people agree with the people who WROTE the comics...not the storm fans who are pissed off because jean is #1. jeez just accept it already..it would make your time here much more enjoyabale.

you dont hear the rest of us *****ing about jean.

 

[javon]

Who said Jean's #1?

 

[javon]

my bad 4 double.

 

[Intheknow101]

Who said Jean's #1? my bad 4 double.

More than 4.

http://www.premiere.com/article.asp?section_id=6&article_id=2748&page_number=2

She may not be #1, but at least she's the top x-woman. #2, with Cyclops being #3. Premiere poll.

Jean was also right behind (she was #2) Wolverine in the yahoo poll. Not sure how I can find it since it was one of the polls in the summer movie guide.

Then there was the comics fan poll that had practically any character imaginable. Jean was always in the top 3 and often was #1.

Polls may mean nothing, since it varies on the people polled and even where/when it is polled, but it can give a general idea.

There was even a thread with a poll here about Jean vs ***** a while back, and Jean once again won.

X-Fan had her rated as the #2 x-character.
IGN had her rated as the #6.She rated higher and polled higher in all these than a certain stuck up mutie with a pentchant for hyperbole.

 

[javon]

Which mutant are you reffering to? And who is X-fan?

 

[Exploding Boy]

Who cares about most of those movie polls. Those are irrelevant in my opinion. And most of them aren't even number 1

 

[Intheknow101]

Who cares about most of those movie polls. Those are irrelevant in my opinion. And most of them aren't even number 1

Being right behind Wolverine is no shame. Top x-woman in the majority of cases is fine by me since no one can ever match the over exposed Wolverine. lol.

 

[Exploding Boy]

Being right behind Wolverine is no shame. Top x-woman in the majority of cases is fine by me since no one can ever match the over exposed Wolverine. lol.

That is impressive for the movies but this is comics so it doesn't really mean much

 

[Intheknow101]

That is impressive for he movies but this is comics so it doesn't reall mean much

There was a recent comics poll (I can't seem to find it where there was a huge list of mutants). Jean was in the top 3, and was often #1. Then there's the X-Fan list which is comic version as well.

Like I said, polls in the end just give general ideas, hardly facts. But it's still interesting to see what a lot of people think.

 

[javon]

Yeah it is..sometimes.

 

[Valechan]

.

You really like that pic right? Well it shall prove to be your downfall. It clearly says "JEAN BECAME THE PHOENIX". If she became the phoenix, if she was transformed into it, then logically, she wasn't phoenix to begin with. So, if she at one point wasn't phoenix and then became it, she can't be "always jean, always phoenix", there is no always if she wasn't phoenix at some point. That's one quote that doesn't work anymore.

And another thing "Jean became the PHOENIX", not the Phoenix Force. IT's not the same, the Force is a separate entity like we've read SO MANY times including in Endsong. Jean is merely a host, a person who can channel the Force's powers and not the Force itself. She's using borrowed power, not her own .

 

[GL1]

So... Jean was actually Born as just a mutant, but when she became the Phoenix she eventually went outside of time and thus, technically was always the Phoenix. That's understandable, actually. In fact, it makes, or at least allows, both statements true. It is true that Jean BECAME the Phoenix and it is also true that Jean has ALWAYS been Phoenix, since Phoenix is, apparently, not bound by time and the logics thereof.

Cool.

While this is all informative and stuff, it would be so cool to find a Phoenix fan who didn't have a hate for Storm. Unfortunately, enjoying Phoenix and her illogical origins and power levels requires a hatred for one of the coolest X-Men around. It's sad, honestly. Again, I wish I could find someone who was both a Storm AND Phoenix fan. Or could love one without hating the other. They are teammates, after all.

 

[Intheknow101]

You really like that pic right? Well it shall prove to be your downfall. It clearly says "JEAN BECAME THE PHOENIX". If she became the phoenix, if she was transformed into it, then logically, she wasn't phoenix to begin with. So, if she at one point wasn't phoenix and then became it, she can't be "always jean, always phoenix", there is no always if she wasn't phoenix at some point. That's one quote that doesn't work anymore.

And another thing "Jean became the PHOENIX", not the Phoenix Force. IT's not the same, the Force is a separate entity like we've read SO MANY times including in Endsong. Jean is merely a host, a person who can channel the Force's powers and not the Force itself. She's using borrowed power, not her own .

Obviously the concept of being outside of conventional space/time is lost on you. Things from there encompass all that is all that happens, will happen and has happened. That means once Jean (always having that potential since even as a child) fully evolved into Phoenix, she thus became Phoenix throughout all time and space. Which explains why she was "waiting for herself to arrive" upon her catalytic transformation on the shuttle.

How many times have we said that PHOENIX is what Jean becomes but she accesses an unsentient force of passion and creation to do so. Much like Storm manipulates unsentient forces that dictate the weather. or Magneto controlling the magnetic energies.

Do we really need to show you that panel again where it's said that the two are not mutually exclusive, and that it explicity says the force is neither a entity or being and that it was Jean's way of rationalizing a concept and what she was going through? She thought it was a figment of her imagination, she wasn't far off.

 

[javon]

^Thats is very true GL1..sometimes. I guess it just isn't in the blood of Storm fans to be firends with Jean fans...Just kidding,lol.

 

[Exploding Boy]

I like both Storm and Jean