BvS Jena Malone is in Batman v. Superman... Which role is she playing?

[KillerWolf]

Yeah, other writers did great things with it and, as I said, I love her as Oracle, but it doesn't change my view on the book itself. I don't feel it does her as a character any justice, essentially making her a lamp instead of a character. It's easier to stomach as a one shot for me but once that's in the larger universe, it especially bothers me because I don't like how something so major happens to her in a story she's not really a character in, especially considering she's one of my favourite characters. Other writers can do great things, but it doesn't change my issues with it's presence in the DCU.

I completely get where you're coming from. She has pretty much zero characterization in this issue. And, actually, I believe it probably could be handled better without it detracting from the main theme that was originally envisioned, but alas it wasn't.

I'm just saying, from a writers standpoint, I don't believe it was intended as sexist or that the trope (aforementioned by Mrs. Kent) was even consciously used by Moore when he was planning out the story. I don't think it was like Mad Ones said, that she was used this way just because she's a woman. I imagine it going more like this:

"I want to write a Joker-centric story that depicts him doing something completely sick and inexcusable and then raise a question of whether he's that different from Gotham's best citizens or is it just a matter of one day stepping across the line and from a sane, morally good person, becoming a crazy psychopath. Gotham's best should definitely be Jim Gordon, but how to get Jim Gordon to the edge of that line? I know, there's nothing worse for a parent than to have their own child suffer and be helpless to do anything about it. Joker should hurt Barbara Gordon and then force Jim to witness that, conducting little experiment on him".

It could very well go something along these lines and I believe it is more likely the case than "eh, she's a female character, screw her characterization, she doesn't need any. Lets get her shot, be done with it quickly and then focus on the male ones". t:

 

[Snow Queen]

I completely get where you're coming from. She has pretty much zero characterization in this issue. And, actually, I believe it probably could be handled better without it detracting from the main theme that was originally envisioned, but alas it wasn't.

I'm just saying, from a writers standpoint, I don't believe it was intended as sexist or that the trope (aforementioned by Mrs. Kent) was even consciously used by Moore when he was planning out the story. I don't think it was like Mad Ones said, that she was used this way just because she's a woman. I imagine it going more like this:

"I want to write a Joker-centric story that depicts him doing something completely sick and inexcusable and then raise a question of whether he's that different from Gotham's best citizens or is it just a matter of one day stepping across the line and from a sane, morally good person, becoming a crazy psychopath. Gotham's best should definitely be Jim Gordon, but how to get Jim Gordon to the edge of that line? I know, there's nothing worse for a parent than to have their own child suffer and be helpless to do anything about it. Joker should hurt Barbara Gordon and then force Jim to witness that, conducting little experiment on him".

It could very well go something along these lines and I believe it is more likely the case than "ah, she's a female character, screw her characterization, she doesn't need any. Lets get her shot, be done with it quickly and then focus on the male ones". t:

We're pretty much in agreement then. t: Though that last bit sounds more like the editor who said "cripple the *****" than Moore.

 

[Mad Ones]

Oh, I really don't think Moore was purposely sexist. He didn't write Barbara like he did only because she's a woman. He probably wasn't conscious of sexist tropes because he didn't need to be. It was an industry that didn't think about these things. In a medium where the vast majority of protagonists, supporting casts, and villains are male characters, stories like TKJ are going to happen over and over again. Which is why it's important to speak about the problems TJK has.

 

[KillerWolf]

We're pretty much in agreement then. t: Though that last bit sounds more like the editor who said "cripple the *****" than Moore.

 

[MrsKent26]

I think the key for authors or screen writers is to give supporting characters the same care in writing that the main characters get. The main character will naturally get more screen time and development as a result, but they all deserve the same care. This will help prevent characters of any sex from being used as mere objects in a story. Well-written supporting characters don't mean that a protagonist is lost; it just means they have someone interesting to interact with and the audience has more than one character to be absorbed in.

Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen and certain supporting characters get shafted. There are more stories (especially in comics or movies based on comics) written about male protagonists, so female characters are the ones getting shafted most of the time. This is not in the best interest of the creative team these days. People are demanding better roles and writing for females (just look at the hubbub about Black Widow in AoU) and I hope DC is able to provide this. I'm certain it will lead to better box office returns and reviews.

 

[KillerWolf]

Oh, I really don't think Moore was purposely sexist. He didn't write Barbara like he did only because she's a woman. He probably wasn't conscious of sexist tropes because he didn't need to be. It was an industry that didn't think about these things. In a medium where the vast majority of protagonists, supporting casts, and villains are male characters, stories like TKJ are going to happen over and over again. Which is why it's important to speak about the problems TJK has.

I see your point with this and can agree, and, yes, her characterization could definitely be handled better. Still I retain that Moore focusing almost exclusively on Joker and Gordon can be justified by what kind of story he wanted to tell.

 

[MrsKent26]

He probably wasn't conscious of sexist tropes because he didn't need to be. It was an industry that didn't think about these things. In a medium where the vast majority of protagonists, supporting casts, and villains are male characters, stories like TKJ are going to happen over and over again.

Indeed. Most comics and comic characters began many years ago when women were either minimized or confined to certain limiting roles in narratives. That's why I always bristle when purists start lamenting any changes surrounding female characters and their treatment citing "it's not like the comics I read as a kid!". Sorry guys, but you can't perfectly preserve a medium that originated in a time when women (and as a result female characters) were treated in a way that offends many people today. Long-running comics survive in part by changing with the times. This is especially true for CBMs that target a wider audience.

 

[KillerWolf]

I think the key for authors or screen writers is to give supporting characters the same care in writing that the main characters get. The main character will naturally get more screen time and development as a result, but they all deserve the same care. This will help prevent characters of any sex from being used as mere objects in a story. Well-written supporting characters don't mean that a protagonist is lost; it just means they have someone interesting to interact with and the audience has more than one character to be absorbed in.

Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen and certain supporting characters get shafted. There are more stories (especially in comics or movies based on comics) written about male protagonists, so female characters are the ones getting shafted most of the time. This is not in the best interest of the creative team these days. People are demanding better roles and writing for females (just look at the hubbub about Black Widow in AoU) and I hope DC is able to provide this. I'm certain it will lead to better box office returns and reviews.

I actually wanted to make this point, but being tired as a dog (pun intended, I guess t I forgot to do so. Indeed, there are many instances where writer makes a great job with main characters, but a sub-par one when it comes to supporting ones, regardless of gender of characters in question.

As for DCCU, I am observing carefully what they're doing with Wonder Woman. I have many concerns regarding that and I really, really hope they will handle the character as they should and prove my worries wrong.

 

[Mad Ones]

Indeed. Most comics and comic characters began many years ago when women were either minimized or confined to certain limiting roles in narratives. That's why I always bristle when purists start lamenting any changes surrounding female characters and their treatment citing "it's not like the comics I read as a kid!". Sorry guys, but you can't perfectly preserve a medium that originated in a time when women (and as a result female characters) were treated in a way that offends many people today. Long-running comics survive in part by changing with the times. This is especially true for CBMs that target a wider audience.

I agree with this so much!

 

[MrsKent26]

As for DCCU, I am observing carefully what they're doing with Wonder Woman. I have many concerns regarding that and I really, really hope they will handle the character as they should and prove my worries wrong.

Ditto. I've got many worries and hopes for her as well.

I'm not one of those people that think a female character having a love interest invalidates her, but I do hope her big debut isn't comprised mostly of flirting with Bruce Wayne and modelling nice clothes. I also hope Gadot can act. Nothing we've seen so far has alleviated those worries, but hopefully something will, even if I have to wait for the final product in April.

Wonder woman isn't my only hope though. I'm hoping for meaty supporting roles for Martha Kent, whoever Malone is playing, Lois, and Hunter's character. Then there's the females of SS. Bring it, DC!

 

[Snow Queen]

Ditto. I've got many worries and hopes for her as well.

I'm not one of those people that think a female character having a love interest invalidates her, but I do hope her big debut isn't comprised mostly of flirting with Bruce Wayne and modelling nice clothes. I also hope Gadot can act. Nothing we've seen so far has alleviated those worries, but hopefully something will, even if I have to wait for the final product in April.

Wonder woman isn't my only hope though. I'm hoping for meaty supporting roles for Martha Kent, whoever Malone is playing, Lois and Hunter's character. Then there's the females of SS. Bring it, DC!

I hope that isn't the case because I just hate that relationship. It can stay in the DCAU with Barbara/Bruce. *shudders*

 

[def28]

Love Oracle, more so then most of the Batgirl stuff which I dig as well. Even if the killing Joke is too extreme/controversial for some fans of the character the stuff Birds of Prey and Gail Simone did with her later was fantastic. And in a world where there a very few wheelchair bound characters (with let alone zero super powers) I always thought people would find her to be a very inspiring character on getting through the darkest times and pushing yourself. She's a fantastic leader and one of the brightest in the DC world. Batman himself relies on her knowledge constantly.

I straight up hate that fans and think pieces have been trying to argue or just flat out forget to mention things like that in defense over a variant cover. People saying that she somehow needs to walk in order to be a fully respected non victimized character or some bs like that. This is the only character female fans who are in a wheelchair for their rest of their lives can probably relate to regarding their physical condition.

Oracle,Batgirl or whatever... love the casting of Jena if true. The Bat family needs more love on screen for sure.

 

[MrsKent26]

I hope that isn't the case because I just hate that relationship.

I don't like it either. They just don't mesh, IMO.

Love Oracle, more so then most of the Batgirl stuff which I dig as well. Even if the killing Joke is too extreme/controversial for some fans of the character the stuff Birds of Prey and Gail Simone did with her later was fantastic. And in a world where there a very few wheelchair bound characters (with let alone zero super powers) I always thought people would find her to be a very inspiring character on getting through the darkest time and pushing yourself. She's a fantastic leader and one of the brightest in the DC world. Batman himself relies on her knowledge constantly.

This is the only character female fans who are in a wheelchair for their rest of their lives can probably relate to regarding their physical condition.

Indeed. I think she can be a very inspiring and likable character if written well. And Jenna is fun to watch.

 

[KillerWolf]

Ditto. I've got many worries and hopes for her as well.

I'm not one of those people that think a female character having a love interest invalidates her, but I do hope her big debut isn't comprised mostly of flirting with Bruce Wayne and modelling nice clothes. I also hope Gadot can act. Nothing we've seen so far has alleviated those worries, but hopefully something will, even if I have to wait for the final product in April.

Wonder woman isn't my only hope though. I'm hoping for meaty supporting roles for Martha Kent, whoever Malone is playing, Lois, and Hunter's character. Then there's the females of SS. Bring it, DC!

Yeah, that's why I am really against her having any sort of romance with Bruce Wayne, even though, admittedly, I was fond of it in animated series. I'll survive a bit of flirting, as I see primarily it as a little nod to the animated series, but anything more than that - no.
Actually, given that two of them are my favorite DC superheroes, this would pretty much kill both of them with one shot. t:

As for her having or not having a love interest, considering how often female characters get used solely as love interests and not much else in films, I believe that shifting that completely and having her without any in her first film wouldn't be a bad approach at all. Still, it is pointless to discuss this now, as Steve Trevor has been cast, so I hope they'll at least handle the relationship well.

And I agree about other female characters. I enjoyed Martha in MOS and I liked how they handled Lois in the first half of the film. Later, not so much. Hopefully she will be handled better this time.

 

[MrsKent26]

Yeah, that's why I am really against her having any sort of romance with Bruce Wayne, even though, admittedly, I was fond of it in animated series. I'll survive a bit of flirting, as I see primarily it as a little nod to the animated series, but anything more than that - no.
Actually, given that two of them are my favorite DC superheroes, this would pretty much kill both of them with one shot. t:

As for her having or not having a love interest, considering how often female characters get used solely as love interests and not much else in films, I believe that shifting that completely and having her without any in her first film wouldn't be a bad approach at all. Still, it is pointless to discuss this now, as Steve Trevor has been cast, so I hope they'll at least handle the relationship well.

Yeah, I think her having no love interesting or anything like that is BvS would have been a good move. But...it seems like there might be something with Bruce. Hopefully, it's just a little flirt. But even so...I'd rather not see her "getting her way" or info from a man using flirting or anything of the sort. It's just so...cliched and dull. It seems like she doesn't have that large of a part, so I hope it's used wisely.

As for Steve, I'm all for a romance in the WW solo. By the way...who was cast? I didn't even hear about it...

 

[def28]

Indeed. I think she can be a very inspiring and likable character if written well. And Jenna is fun to watch.

Yeah, Jena is awesome. Have been hoping she would get a good role in a comic flick.

 

[Snow Queen]

Yeah, I think her having no love interesting or anything like that is BvS would have been a good move. But...it seems like there might be something with Bruce. Hopefully, it's just a little flirt. But even so...I'd rather not see her "getting her way" or info from a man using flirting or anything of the sort. It's just so...cliched and dull. It seems like she doesn't have that large of a part, so I hope it's used wisely.

As for Steve, I'm all for a romance in the WW solo. By the way...who was cast? I didn't even hear about it...

Chris Pine.

 

[MrsKent26]

^ Cool. I can support that.

 

[KillerWolf]

Yeah, I think her having no love interesting or anything like that is BvS would have been a good move. But...it seems like there might be something with Bruce. Hopefully, it's just a little flirt. But even so...I'd rather not see her "getting her way" or info from a man using flirting or anything of the sort. It's just so...cliched and dull. It seems like she doesn't have that large of a part, so I hope it's used wisely.

As for Steve, I'm all for a romance in the WW solo. By the way...who was cast? I didn't even hear about it...

I most definitely agree. Though, given that Affleck's quote about Bond-like scene with the two of them, I'm afraid we might be getting something like this. I'll survive it if it's the case, but it is indeed cliched as hell.
By the way, I am not so sure about the size of her part. We've seen her in four different outfits plus Wonder Woman costume so far, which leads me to believe that she might have more scenes than many initially believed she will.

And Chris Pine is playing Steve Trevor. At least I think that it was officially confirmed.

 

[MrsKent26]

^ I want to respond to that, but I've realized we're talking lots of WW in the Malone thread. So, I'm going to respond to this post in the "WW's role in BvS" thread.

 

[KillerWolf]

Gotcha. We kinda did hijack the thread.

I believe that I could be blamed for that. Both times, actually - regarding Barbara Gordon in "The Killing Joke" debate and now conversation regarding Wonder Woman. Damn, I really lack discipline.

 

[TripleJ]

Ditto. I've got many worries and hopes for her as well.

I'm not one of those people that think a female character having a love interest invalidates her, but I do hope her big debut isn't comprised mostly of flirting with Bruce Wayne and modelling nice clothes. I also hope Gadot can act. Nothing we've seen so far has alleviated those worries, but hopefully something will, even if I have to wait for the final product in April.

Wonder woman isn't my only hope though. I'm hoping for meaty supporting roles for Martha Kent, whoever Malone is playing, Lois, and Hunter's character. Then there's the females of SS. Bring it, DC!

Hope so too. Well, she did something to impress them - so, I don't think we have much to worry - we will know for sure next year.

As for Bruce-Diana relationship, I am a fan of it (I liked how Morrison did it in his JLA). If they are going for that, fine...but, like you mentioned, I hope they don't just reduce her to a romance. WW is much more than that.

Obviously, they might not be able to do much characterization in BvS (but, hopefully they will do enough to get people curious).

Oh, since Bruce and Diana know each other's identities...and since there are rumors of Diana being much older, it's possible that both have worked together in the past - so, a relationship might have happened in the past).

 

[Gee]

Love Oracle, more so then most of the Batgirl stuff which I dig as well. Even if the killing Joke is too extreme/controversial for some fans of the character the stuff Birds of Prey and Gail Simone did with her later was fantastic. And in a world where there a very few wheelchair bound characters (with let alone zero super powers) I always thought people would find her to be a very inspiring character on getting through the darkest times and pushing yourself. She's a fantastic leader and one of the brightest in the DC world. Batman himself relies on her knowledge constantly.

I straight up hate that fans and think pieces have been trying to argue or just flat out forget to mention things like that in defense over a variant cover. People saying that she somehow needs to walk in order to be a fully respected non victimized character or some bs like that. This is the only character female fans who are in a wheelchair for their rest of their lives can probably relate to regarding their physical condition.

Oracle,Batgirl or whatever... love the casting of Jena if true. The Bat family needs more love on screen for sure.

Yep. Jill Pantozzi from TheMarySue is a long-time Batgirl/Babs fan (she's also wheelchair-bound and a redhead) and was disheartened when DC announced Barbara would be able to walk and be Batgirl again when DC announced the New 52.

http://www.newsarama.com/7749-op-ed-oracle-is-stronger-than-batgirl-will-ever-be.html

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

If Malone is playing Babs, in the wheel chair or out my question is, what is the state of her relationship with Bruce? Are they estranged? Still friends? Is it icy?

 

[Gee]

If Malone is playing Babs, in the wheel chair or out my question is, what is the state of her relationship with Bruce? Are they estranged? Still friends? Is it icy?

Hopefully, it's not this relationship from the DCAU: