The Rise of Skywalker JJ Abrams is Writing and Directing Episode IX

[Roose Bolton]

Well it comes down to the simple fact for me, I cannot abide someone who kills children. And not just in the sense of pushing a button or pulling a trigger in a cold and militaristic fashion where hundreds and thousands die in the cold arithmetic of war, but actually using your hands and ending the life of a child. There's a perversity to that kind of act I can't get past. The fact that Vader couldn't kill his own child shows that he had some standards, but it doesn't negate the hundreds he slew in the Jedi Temple.

There's no reason to assume Kylo doesn't have the potential to do something like that, but we haven't seen it of him. It's a small distinction, but an important one for me.

 

[titansupes]

Johnson has talked about Rey as an audience surrogate, and the way he writes Rey, jumping right into "Kylo can be redeemed, you're not alone, man who I watched kill and maim most people I have bonded with up to this point," doesn't exactly dispel my thoughts on his handling of Kylo.

Yeah, and that is exactly why TLJ ends not with a confrontation involving the main character, but Rian's main character Kylo taking on Luke Skywalker. It is why TLJ is missing its protagonist. It focuses on Kylo a lot, in what feels like Rian's attempt to make him seem not that bad, while having him do extremely awful things. It is almost like Rian doesn't see what he is writing and somehow relates to Kylo. Which is kind of scary when you think about it.

There's so much stuff like that throughout--

"What's Luke doing on that island? We know he's not a coward"-- resulted in Luke being a big ****ing coward in TLJ.

"Not by killing what we hate, but saving what we love"-- a line literally punctuated by a big laser blowing up the one thing between her friends and certain death, moments after she stopped Finn from trying to save them.

Holdo showing Poe what true leadership is... by being the epitome of bad leadership, yet the movie insisting she was right.

 

[Aximili86]

*Laughs* The metric here is Vader?

Vader probably is worse than Kylo, he had 20 years and a buttload more power to work with, and while on the dark path shared all the same goals as his Master, they were sympatico unlike the Snoke/Kylo stuff.

That doesn't mean Kylo's not a ttal scum****. He was literally presented that way in TLJ, in the throne room aftermath he has a chance to turn things around, and instead Rey simply not joining him is enough to send him all murderous tyrant.

That doesn't mean he can't be "redeemed" to an extent. I don't want him killed, but also not forgiven. Throw him into self-imposed exile at the end of IX, as in he's come around to seeing the error of his ways and ****s off to live in depressed solitude on Tatooine or some equivalent.

Just bring him around to seeing what a scumbag he was and accept some lonely hermit-life punishment over it. Don't "redeem" him like Vader though.

 

[Broseph44]

There's so much stuff like that throughout--

"What's Luke doing on that island? We know he's not a coward"-- resulted in Luke being a big ****ing coward in TLJ.

"Not by killing what we hate, but saving what we love"-- a line literally punctuated by a big laser blowing up the one thing between her friends and certain death, moments after she stopped Finn from trying to save them.

Holdo showing Poe what true leadership is... by being the epitome of bad leadership, yet the movie insisting she was right.

I enjoy TLJ a lot but lord, I absolutely hated Rose.

 

[Greens]

Yeah, I hope Rose gets killed off soon. She's just dead weight.

 

[Iceman]

I would have rather kept the same director for the 3 Episode films.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I don't agree. While Lucas was actively involved in the OT, they had 3 different directors and I think they were the better for it. Conversely, the PT had the same director and one voice. They suck. Sometimes having multiple voices yields a better product.

 

[Iceman]

I don't agree. While Lucas was actively involved in the OT, they had 3 different directors and I think they were the better for it. Conversely, the PT had the same director and one voice. They suck. Sometimes having multiple voices yields a better product.

All you’re saying is that Lucas sucks as the PT kept him for the duration while we got Empire by switching away from him.

Whatever people think of Abrams, he’s decent enough that a change is a big risk. I just think people didn’t recognise that there was a significant risk and thought Star Wars was totally infallible with audiences.

 

[Spider-Fan]

All you’re saying is that Lucas sucks as the PT kept him for the duration while we got Empire by switching away from him.

Whatever people think of Abrams, he’s decent enough that a change is a big risk. I just think people didn’t recognise that there was a significant risk and thought Star Wars was totally infallible with audiences.

I am not Abrams biggest fan. I think he is a solid director who makes solid movies. I don't think he has made a great movie yet IMO. He's made several good/very good films, but nothing I ever thought was genius. I know he is more popular with many people, though. That said, I don't think Abrams not staying on for VIII was an issue of thinking Star Wars was invincible. Star Wars always belonged to Lucas, and now he is gone essentially. The world of Star Wars opened up, and I think Kennedy and co wanted to use that to allow newer voices to take over and give people a chance to work on something most in the film world cherish. This is something I completely understand, and like you said, with the OT bringing in a new director gave us TESB. I don't think TESB as made by Lucas would have been as good as he hated things like the "I love you" "I know" exchange, which is an iconic moment.

 

[Aximili86]

Well, really, Lucas basically directed Jedi. Marquand was the guy with the title, but basically executing George's vision, very much a workhorse director carrying out what George wanted.

I dunno, I never really had much issue with George's directing in the prequels. It's the dialogue that's the problem - and the relying too much upon the new digital tech, trying to push boundaries and break that frontier to a further extent than it had been at the time. Given the tech wasn't quite there yet a lot of it comes off looking artificial.

But that's not really "bad directing" as such. Just on a pure cinematic level there are some pretty insane visuals and concepts in the PT, the sort of scope and vision not even Johnson really rivalled with TLJ (and I really ****ing love TLJ).

You definitely want someone like Kasdan or Kurtz working with George to temper things a little and focus him. But I don't know that's even a knock on George, he's still basically the best "ideas man" in pulp/adventure/scifi cinema, on that world-building (universe-building?) level. George on his best day (just not his worst) can do what most directors do, but most directors can't do what George does, if that makes sense.

 

[Greens]

Well, really, Lucas basically directed Jedi. Marquand was the guy with the title, but basically executing George's vision, very much a workhorse director carrying out what George wanted.

I dunno, I never really had much issue with George's directing in the prequels. It's the dialogue that's the problem - and the relying too much upon the new digital tech, trying to push boundaries and break that frontier to a further extent than it had been at the time. Given the tech wasn't quite there yet a lot of it comes off looking artificial.

But that's not really "bad directing" as such. Just on a pure cinematic level there are some pretty insane visuals and concepts in the PT, the sort of scope and vision not even Johnson really rivalled with TLJ (and I really ****ing love TLJ).

You definitely want someone like Kasdan or Kurtz working with George to temper things a little and focus him. But I don't know that's even a knock on George, he's still basically the best "ideas man" in pulp/adventure/scifi cinema, on that world-building (universe-building?) level. George on his best day (just not his worst) can do what most directors do, but most directors can't do what George does, if that makes sense.

The dialogue scenes in the prequels were poorly directed. He didn't know what to do with them. It's either people sitting on a couch or walking through a hallway talking to each other in the blandest way.

But yeah in terms of world building his films blow the new films out of the water.

 

[Aximili86]

See, I don't know about that. A lot of Neeson's scenes in I are pretty decent, around the table in Schmi's apartment is pretty well done.

III has some good stuff, the Obi/Padme conversation just after Anakin's started to go bat****.

I think Lucas is capable of it, even on his own. He sure as hell used to be with his earlier work, but I'd argue you even see glimmers of it with the prequels. It just seemed like his head was sort of elsewhere, in the late-90s/early-2000s it seemed like the tech was the focus, finding a way of painting this huge operatic thing on a new canvas that didn't exist just 10 years earlier.

Which absolutely, really negatively effected the films. I just sort of feel like, should Lucas have not completely retired and rather decided to go do some small quirkier personal movies post-SW, we might have been getting some pretty interesting American Graffiti-esque stuff out of him. He ****ed-up on a lot of the emotional elements of the prequels (and even then, there are a few really good ones in I and III), but honestly it almost seemed like that wasn't even the point, he was trying to lean all-in to the broad new scope of what he could do with ILM's new toys. Which hell, for the industry in a wider sense was probably a really good thing, so much of this was pioneered by George, stuff we take for granted now.

Now that that's all out of his system, I do think if he took a different non-tech-focused tack with a movie he's still probably capable of writing/directing good stuff. He just won't, as he's out for good.

 

[Mjölnir]

I love Rey coming from nothing, and I don't think it contradicts anything in TFA. This is a new kind of hero in the saga, divorced from chosen one tropes and special bloodlines, who has to rely only on herself to succeed. That's what the vision in the cave was about, that's what her thing has been since the beginning. Self-reliance.

I don't think she's divorced from the chosen one trope. Snoke talks about how the light side will elevate one to match the dark in Kylo, so while it's not an old prophecy like with Anakin, or a virgin birth, it's pretty much belonging to the same overall concept. She's not a hero of chance, the Force has a purpose with her.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Well, really, Lucas basically directed Jedi. Marquand was the guy with the title, but basically executing George's vision, very much a workhorse director carrying out what George wanted.

I dunno, I never really had much issue with George's directing in the prequels. It's the dialogue that's the problem - and the relying too much upon the new digital tech, trying to push boundaries and break that frontier to a further extent than it had been at the time. Given the tech wasn't quite there yet a lot of it comes off looking artificial.

But that's not really "bad directing" as such. Just on a pure cinematic level there are some pretty insane visuals and concepts in the PT, the sort of scope and vision not even Johnson really rivalled with TLJ (and I really ****ing love TLJ).

You definitely want someone like Kasdan or Kurtz working with George to temper things a little and focus him. But I don't know that's even a knock on George, he's still basically the best "ideas man" in pulp/adventure/scifi cinema, on that world-building (universe-building?) level. George on his best day (just not his worst) can do what most directors do, but most directors can't do what George does, if that makes sense.

It is the job of a director to direct the performances of the actors, so badly executed dialogue is 1000000000% on the director. He also was the writer, so he takes double the responsibility for the deficiencies in the dialogue. But Lucas was never good at directing actors. Many account from the trio on the OT state as much. The only difference it seems between the OT to the PT is the OT actors actually told George his dialogue sucked sometimes. No one seemed to want to tell the emperor that he had no clothes with the PT.

 

[Aximili86]

Yeah, no arguments on the writing. He should have mapped it out himself and done first drafts, but then handed it off to someone else to polish.

I do feel like the way the dialogue in the finished movies comes off would be a lot better if that had happened though, it's not like the positioning of cameras and staging of scenes is what made it crappy. It's the stuff they were reading, and the fact they were standing in a big green room with no reference points.

And Lucas has never been all that actor-friendly a director, he surely wasn't with the OT. Still got good performances out of the cast there. What changed? The tech, basically. It was harder for people to act opposite nothing, than act opposite something there in-camera. I guess that's direction in a sense, but I don't know that George himself changed all that much between the two trilogies, so much as George became lost in all his new toys.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah, no arguments on the writing. He should have mapped it out himself and done first drafts, but then handed it off to someone else to polish.

I do feel like the way the dialogue in the finished movies comes off would be a lot better if that had happened though, it's not like the positioning of cameras and staging of scenes is what made it crappy. It's the stuff they were reading, and the fact they were standing in a big green room with no reference points.

And Lucas has never been all that actor-friendly a director, he surely wasn't with the OT. Still got good performances out of the cast there. What changed? The tech, basically. It was harder for people to act opposite nothing, than act opposite something there in-camera. I guess that's direction in a sense, but I don't know that George himself changed all that much between the two trilogies, so much as George became lost in all his new toys.

The tech is part of it as no one knew how to react the to CG, but also what changed was status. When Lucas made Star Wars, he was the guy who made American Graffiti. He wasn't a legend. When he made the PT, he was a legend. It's harder to tell a guy who is an industry legend he is wrong than a dude who is just another director.

 

[Aximili86]

But who was telling him he was wrong on the '77 movie? We know Ford & Guinness had issues with some of the dialogue, but overall it was still pretty much the George Show and turned out as well as it did.

 

[Spider-Fan]

But who was telling him he was wrong on the '77 movie? We know Ford & Guinness had issues with some of the dialogue, but overall it was still pretty much the George Show and turned out as well as it did.

The actors on set, Lawrence Kasdan, etc. All of them had voices and would often tell George when things were not working for them. I am not saying Lucas deserves no credit, but I am saying he at the same time was questioned and not the only voice.

 

[Brother Jack]

I don't think she's divorced from the chosen one trope. Snoke talks about how the light side will elevate one to match the dark in Kylo, so while it's not an old prophecy like with Anakin, or a virgin birth, it's pretty much belonging to the same overall concept. She's not a hero of chance, the Force has a purpose with her.

Yeah it's still within the chosen one archetype, but I think not having the virgin birth and prophecy are important deviations. The burden of being the "new hope" is not placed on Rey as immediately or as obviously as it was on Anakin, and she did not have the kind of support structures that Anakin and Luke had. They had families and mentors to help shape them, Rey only had herself.

 

[Brother Jack]

But who was telling him he was wrong on the '77 movie? We know Ford & Guinness had issues with some of the dialogue, but overall it was still pretty much the George Show and turned out as well as it did.

Lucas had a lot of assistance writing the original film from friends and colleagues such as Francis Ford Coppola and his then wife Marcia Lucas. No one else was credited with writing the script, but he had a lot of feedback and guidance during the process, as evidenced by how radically different the first drafts of "The Star Wars" were.

 

[Mjölnir]

Yeah it's still within the chosen one archetype, but I think not having the virgin birth and prophecy are important deviations. The burden of being the "new hope" is not placed on Rey as immediately or as obviously as it was on Anakin, and she did not have the kind of support structures that Anakin and Luke had. They had families and mentors to help shape them, Rey only had herself.

Rey being on her own isn't doing much for the character though since she's just so good at everything all the time. Brilliant with tech, great at fighting, master pilot, insanely strong with the Force, most people like her so much they even bend their personalities to cater to her, etc.

 

[Aximili86]

Lucas had a lot of assistance writing the original film from friends and colleagues such as Francis Ford Coppola and his then wife Marcia Lucas. No one else was credited with writing the script, but he had a lot of feedback and guidance during the process, as evidenced by how radically different the first drafts of "The Star Wars" were.

Yeah, Marcia was heavily involved with the editing of the thing, but I'm not sure she had that much to do with scripting & dialogue. Could be wrong there, though, not entirely sure. And Francis was involved early on, but was he on-set and stuff?

Spider-Fan, pretty sure the first time Larry worked with George was Raiders? And as for the actors, we know Ford & Guinness raised their issues with him, but whether they were actually listened to or not seems a whole other thing. Seems from how Guinness thought about shooting the damn thing, his general demeanor/attitude toward it, George probably wasn't taking their notes to heart in any major way.

Francis & Marcia definitely though. I just don't recall them being so much story/dialogue influencers.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Yeah, Marcia was heavily involved with the editing of the thing, but I'm not sure she had that much to do with scripting & dialogue. Could be wrong there, though, not entirely sure. And Francis was involved early on, but was he on-set and stuff?

Spider-Fan, pretty sure the first time Larry worked with George was Raiders? And as for the actors, we know Ford & Guinness raised their issues with him, but whether they were actually listened to or not seems a whole other thing. Seems from how Guinness thought about shooting the damn thing, his general demeanor/attitude toward it, George probably wasn't taking their notes to heart in any major way.

Francis & Marcia definitely though. I just don't recall them being so much story/dialogue influencers.

Empire was first time Kasdan came into Star Wars (predates Raiders).

 

[Aximili86]

Right, yeah, always forget which of those came out first. But point being, he wasn't around for the original SW.

 

[Deck Rickard]

Well it comes down to the simple fact for me, I cannot abide someone who kills children. And not just in the sense of pushing a button or pulling a trigger in a cold and militaristic fashion where hundreds and thousands die in the cold arithmetic of war, but actually using your hands and ending the life of a child. There's a perversity to that kind of act I can't get past. The fact that Vader couldn't kill his own child shows that he had some standards, but it doesn't negate the hundreds he slew in the Jedi Temple.

There's no reason to assume Kylo doesn't have the potential to do something like that, but we haven't seen it of him. It's a small distinction, but an important one for me.

Yeah. The prequels kind of made me lose respect for Vader as a villain. Aside from bad acting by Hayden and his creepy stalker routine with Padme, he also slaughters a bunch of children and never really even wins a big duel. Well, I think he beat Count Dookie in the first five minutes of Revenge of the Sith, but meh. I get that Lucas wanted to humanize him and make him a tragic character but he ended up just turning him into creep, an A-hole and a loser.