Comics JMS off Amazing

[kainedamo]

Fair enough.

I enjoyed Whedon's first X-Men arc. The second one was horrid. It was a blatant rip-off of an old storyline that was told better back then. The third one was okay, but predictable.

Millar's run was very good for some time. I did NOT like Gargan Venom or Norman being behind everything AGAIN. The end was very anti-climactic. I'd give it a B-.

Sorry, forgot all about this. I asked because I find that alot of people think the sun shines out of Joss Whedons' ass and that Mark Millars' MK Spidey run is the best thing since sliced bread. I consider both to be highly overrated. Not just that - I hate Joss Whedons' X-Men run. And while Mark Millars' MK Spidey run had alot of entertaining action, the dialogue was absolutely awful. The story was highly unoriginal. In fact, I had written a fairly similar Spidey fan fic some four or five years ago when I was young and foolish enough to waste time on such things. And then I find a professional writer actually rips off my lame ideas!!

I just brought it up to see what kind of tastes you had.

 

[Kevin]

the best thing about mk spidey was the whole thing with black cat.

 

[kguillou]

If JMS does leave, all that is ask for him to do before leaves is please please please explain to us who the HELL IS Morlun? Its been like 4 years since he introduced this guy and we dont know jack about him. And yet, this is the guy that killed spider-man. If JMS could do one last story explaining who morlun is, his motives, his powers etc. i'd be satisfied and i would forgive him for his past stories.

 

[Kevin]

I should start buying amazing again...

 

[diespinne]

If JMS does leave, all that is ask for him to do before leaves is please please please explain to us who the HELL IS Morlun? Its been like 4 years since he introduced this guy and we dont know jack about him. And yet, this is the guy that killed spider-man. If JMS could do one last story explaining who morlun is, his motives, his powers etc. i'd be satisfied and i would forgive him for his past stories.

Yeah... and how did Morlun just reappear in The Other story arc when he was more-or-less destroyed at the end of his first arc? Also, why was he only seen by Spider-man and Mary Jane during The Other? And while we're at it... why are all of Spider-man's vampiric enemies named "Mor"-something?

Well, the easy answer: crappy writing.

 

[Kevin]

...because it begins with "mor" it's crappy writing...?...*sigh*

 

[diespinne]

Oh, come on, COMICBOY-- give me a little bit more credit than that. The "Mor-" bit was just tacked-on as a joke. But yeah, he could have had a cooler name...

Seriously, though... considering Morlun played such a big role in JMS's run, it's odd that certain things like how he came back from the dead were totally ignored. I guess most ppl don't care since The Other is considered horrible all around.

 

[Kevin]

I do agreed with the "What the Hell is up with Morlun?" crowd.

 

[TwilightPro101]

Morlun mentioned some rebirth of some kind. I vaguely recall it, but for some reason the particular plot detail didn't stand out.

 

[kguillou]

Also, why was he only seen by Spider-man and Mary Jane during The Other?

They weren't the only ones. After Morlun beat the life outta spidey, there were a bunch of cops who shot at him and they were killed easily by morlun. So dont worry about him being a figment of peter's imagination. Besides why would spidey beat himself to death?

 

[Spade]

Morlun mentioned some rebirth of some kind. I vaguely recall it, but for some reason the particular plot detail didn't stand out.

That is, hopefully, one of the many things that will never be spoken of again after JMS is gone. Superman fighting Doomsday in Prey had no real impact. The bad idea to begin with was making Morlun Spidey's killer. They could only make it worse by bringing him back.

 

[diespinne]

They weren't the only ones. After Morlun beat the life outta spidey, there were a bunch of cops who shot at him and they were killed easily by morlun. So dont worry about him being a figment of peter's imagination. Besides why would spidey beat himself to death?

Oh yeah, that's right-- I forgot about the cops and the other bystanders seeing him. Funny how no other superheroes ever saw him or got to tussle with him though... or did I miss that too?

I kind of wish Morlun was just a figment of Spidey's imagination... that might have been interesting-- Spidey beating himself to death due to some spider-instinct that understood that his body was ready to molt and decided to expedite the process... heh...

 

[diespinne]

That is, hopefully, one of the many things that will never be spoken of again after JMS is gone. Superman fighting Doomsday in Prey had no real impact. The bad idea to begin with was making Morlun Spidey's killer. They could only make it worse by bringing him back.

Agreed! I hope Morlun and the whole Other storyline is either never brought up again or explained away in some way. So many unbelievable "what the?!" moments that ended-up amounting to nothing...

 

[AmaznSpider-Fan]

What pissed me off about JMS the most is that you can clearly see he's a quality writer and that he gets the gist of each character. Hell, I'd even go out on a limb and say that he's one of the few Spidey writers that really knew how to write the Pete/MJ relationship really well. For whatever reason though, he chose to go against the grain and try to change too many things that have been Spider-lore for way too long. I'm all about change, but not at the sake of stories and events that already took place. It's like taking what someone wrote 30 years ago and changing it into something completely different.

Unfortunately, I don't think that his memory will be overshadowed by Sins Past, and The Other.

 

[Venom Drool]

also.. you cannot retcon the issues brought up in an EVENT as big as his involvewment in the Civil War, his unmasking, his rebirth (although it might be forgotten). his kidnapped child is still in the MU somewhere, we havent forgotten, its just tht most dont care.. .like the spider stingers... ill always remember those.

 

[kainedamo]

The whole Morlun thing...

I'd prefer if there was some sort of explanation in the future. I would like to see Morlun be a recurring character... but only sparringly. If he's used, he should only be portrayed as nothing other than a huge threat. It would be cool to see him kill off some c list heroes or something, or travel to an alternate dimension (ala The Fury) and kill off a whole world of heroes. It would be nice to see other heroes have a stab at him, but his menace would be undermined if he's defeated by anyone other than Spidey.

 

[Dangerous]

It's these types of childish opinions that make it incredibly hard for me to take JMS haters seriously. It's like when you talk about movies, and someone says "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon is the WORST movie I have ever saw!!!". You have guys like that in movie debates, and it's totally eye rolling.

Total eye rolling aside, I myself find CTHD to be a very tiresome movie, and since I am not of Japanese origin unintentionally humorous. No matter what anyone says, wire work is lame.
If I want to see a martial arts movie I will watch Bruce Lee or Tony Jaa.

My opinions are not childish, but it is childish of you to suggest they are. It’s just a fact that JMS is hack.
We have all been through this a million times but he basically wrote the two worst Spider-man arcs ever within two years.
First,- in Sins Past he delves into Spider-mans past to concoct an arc of absolute garbage to try and define his boring and essentially (up till this point) mediocre run. He attempts this by defiling the memory of one of the greatest and most important characters in the Spidey mythos.

He claimed to be able to do this in an arc that would make perfect sense continuity wise. In actuality to get this turd to float, he had to invent a 6 month holiday that never happened were Gwen took up residence in Paris for an extended holiday.

Now, I don’t know how long you have reading SM for, or how many back issues you have read, but here’s a hint- Gwen never went to Paris while she was w/ Peter.

No other writer ever invented things that never happened just for the sake of creating sensationalist arcs w/ key supporting cast members that have been dead for years. See where I’m going w/ this?
JMS is a hack, too bad if you can’t see that.

I really don't give a rats ass what percentage of board members agree or disagree. Say what you like about JMS, but he is still a talented writer.

Talented at writing boring SM stories, or arcs that lack any understanding of continuity, or correct characterizations of PP..
Il give you that.

Look at AMZ #36.

Vol2 #36 was good, but it was an emotional issue for everyone.
I don’t think he is especially talented for writing it, any writer back in 2001/02 would have turned out a similar effort.
Only they probably would not have made the mistake of depicting Dr Doom and co as giving a s-hit.

Look at the many great character moments.

Well he made MJ and May real people again, that was about it.

JMS was the one that saved the marriage.

More likely it was an editorial decision.

I don't read comics for character cameos, I read comics partly for heartfelt character moments, and JMS provides that in bucketloads.

Good for you.
I read Spider-man in the hope that the comic has a writer who has at least a simple understanding of how continuity works, and that he/she can grasp the basics. Y’know, like Spidey does not kill.

Again, say what you like about Sins Past. You may not like it, but it's an incredibly heart felt story.

Apart from it not making any sense continuity wise, and because of it we can clearly see it was garbage manufactured by Joe Q and JMS for the sole purpose of shock value and spiking the sales.
It also portrays PP out of character, plus turns out MJ betrayed him by lying to him for years, and you know what?,- for PP that’s fine too.
That sure is great writing.

Joe Q is responsible for many things that people blame JMS for. The new costume, his identity being public, Norman being the father of Gwens kids, The Other being a total mess.

No JMS is responsible for what he is responsible for.

Some of the arcs may have been crafted by the editorial, but if JMS had any integrity as the supposed Spidey comic fan he professes to be, or any respect for the characters, he would not have touched any of it w/ a barge pole. He would have just jumped to a different book.
If you like that stuff, that’s fine.
To me and most other Spidey fans its pure trash.

 

[dan1]

1. Peter becoming a teacher was one huge waste of storyline potential. Besides the 2 or 3 storylines that actually involved teaching and students, what exactly has his new job done for the character? NOTHING. There have been no supporting characters spun out of the storyline, there have been no memorable arcs spun out of the storyline. And the fact that he even still teaches after being unmasked is complete and utter BS!!!! Peter never should have been a teacher. If anything, he should have become a scientist. He's a genius with the potential to become ALMOST on par with Reed Richards... yet they wasted it by making him a teacher that is always late for class and now puts CHILDREN'S lives in danger. So much for responsibility.

2. Yeah, that was great, I did enjoy that. But I would have enjoyed it even more had May stayed dead back in #400.

Exactly, even the "good ideas" were cra p when JMS put them to paper.

If you think his run on Spider-Man was great, do yourself a favor and read lots of backissues from the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's and I assure you, you will change your mind.

As matter of fact, he will probably start to offend you.

 

[Kevin]

I have read those issues and MY opinion still stands that JMS' Spider-man was great/different (not good or bad different, but different nevertheless.) What else you got? And I'm not trying to be rude, I just saying everyone have different tastes

 

[dan1]

I just read about this earlier in the day in the latest Wizard. He's been on Spider-Man for six years, that's a freakin' long ass run. Too bad J.M. DeMatteis or Tom Defalco didn't get a six year run on Amazing.

But I think it's good for him to bow out. He's had a long run on the title and really got to say something with the character, albeit good and horribly bad.

I really loved his early ASM work with Romita Jr.

Book of Ezekiel was a fabulous piece of work in the Spider-Man mythos but too bad The Other destroyed that. And Sins Past, of course, was the penultimate sucktastic blowhard piece of crap we all have come to know. Well, not really THAT bad of a story. It just didn't make ANY lick of sense.

But what I'm most excited to see, unlike the people having geekasms over his departure, is if Loeb/Campbell are taking over Amazing...because that would be AMAZING! Hahaha, I kill me!

But, yeah, too many people are taking this way too well. People seem to act like JMS has been pissing in their cornflakes for the past six years.

How many times have you defended JMS, and you admit that 2/3rds of his major stuff was crap and you know Loeb/Campbell would do well because they would respect past writers' efforts.

Believe it, that I am not trying to pick a fight.
Again, you're on your high horse that god forbid people are happy about this guy leaving ASM. ASM was the 1 Spider-Man comic that is suppossed to make sense from issue#1 to present, and you know he couldn't give a crud about the past. He manipulated it and sometimes pretended it didn't exist and you equate that to pissing on our cornflakes. I equate it to someone who didn't understand the essence of what made Spider-Man comics so endearing in the first place.

He thought he did, but he didn't, flat out.

Only quesiton now is, does the next writer sweep JMS' Totem, Sins' Past crap under the carpet, have Xavier wipe out everyone's memory about Civil War and find a way to break the news to Spider-Man that his metomorphosis and Gwens' ****iness were manipulations by a sick, twisted, super-villian (cough cough writer)? Or acknowledge what JMS has done and work with it?

That is the question to learn the answer from in a few months.

I hope, yes truly hope, that JMS' changes are written out of Spider-Man in a way that makes chronological, comic book sense. And man, what a sweet day that would be. A lesson learned for JMS too, no? I mean, his cr ap would become completely, utterly irrelevant, and he would learn the correct way to move on into a completely different direction, a way that doesn't entail sweeping recent supporting characters and storyline away without at least acknowledging them and why you moved on, on the written page.

If you don't see the relevance in the damage JMS did by manipulating the timeline and usually forgetting it all together, then maybe you are the type of person who should read Spider-Man comics for instantly gratifying fun, and not get involved in an in depth debate on a message board thread that takes the comic book very seriously from ASM issue #1 in Mar. 1963 all the way until the time when chronology, character development and personality, and past writers work wasn't taken seriously anymore.

I believe JMS' "Spider-Man Reign" was the beginning of this blatant disregard.

When I hear "Clone Saga was" I cringe, because, yes, it dragged on too long and became contrived, BUT, they tried wholeheartely to make it work and at least they were writing original stuff based on something that happened in the past (Clone) and Spider-Man never read those test resuls from Curt (ASM#150)

So then the next timeline to try to bash in ASM comics is Mackies' run. The re-boot was a mistake they quickly realized and aborted, at least in storyline very quickly. Mackie was overworked on two books, that was a mistake. BUT again, they tried to make it work.

The blatant disregard didn't come until JMS came on board, didn't answer the Baby May questions that people thought he would have the guts to answer and had Ezekial fight side by side with Peter and have Peter think that was the 1st time he fought with someone so similar to him. ASM completely, utterly, jumped the shark at that moment and continued down the slippery slope of lazy, shock value writing....with witty banter. Right we know, he gets the witty banter.

 

[SpideyInATree]

I didn't say that 2/3 of his run sucked. I said there were two storylines that really stunk and tarnished his run a little bit. Other than that his run was pretty solid, and knowing he's been on the title for about 6 years, it's about that time for another team to step in.

And Jeph Loeb is one of my favorite comic book writers so, yeah, I expect him to do good with Spider-Man, considering his earlier Spidey work was great.

 

[DACrowe]

Looking back at JMS I think he had two runs.

HIs work with JRjr was quite good I thought. The first Morlun story was riveting and the most entertaining villain clash in the comics for over 5 years when it happened.

And it left great story oppurtunities like Aunt May finding out Peter Parker was Spider-Man. Something long overdue. He was also the first writer (though Michillinie dabbled in this) to write Aunt May as a real character with a strong personality and it was absolutely riveting stuff between Pete and his supporting cast.

Perhaps his greatest contribution was that what he did with Aunt May but also with Mary Jane. For the first time since....roughly around when they lost baby May, Mary Jane was written as a real person. She had hopes, dreams, motivations and a good personality. She was interesting to read again for the first time in a LONG TIME. You wanted to see them to get back together and when they did it was done in a very satisfying way.

During this time he made other great contributions such as making Peter Parker a school teacher. I think it was a great evolution of his character that if they would not let him evolve personally (have a kid) letting him get a real steady job that he enjoyed that had to do with science since he missed that boat due to being Spider-Man (that is being a scientist) was a stroke of brilliance.

And I don't think enough kind words can be said about his tribute to the real heroes of 9/11.

And of course his first run (as I look at it) was just a lot of fun. Sure the Doc Ock storyline was moot, the Digger, Shakra AND Morlun were throw away villains, but they were fu nand a few of them quite memorable.

Then eh forgot to write the character as fun. And for the record during his JRjr run he wrote Peter Parker as very funny and very smart and a tough opponent to beat. He nailed the character for the first 3 years I thought. And the Book of Ezekiel would have been a good ending point for him as it brought it ALL full circle while leaving the ambiguity there and fullfilling the purpose of hte first really good supporting cast member in a long time.

THEN came Sins Past. Which is where the "second run" starts IMO. That story was so uniformly bad it made me cancel my subscription to Amazing. In this lame story, JMS takes a **** on Gwen, MJ, Peter Parker and makes Norman Osborn the even more contrived answer more than ever. It was hugely disappointing, I thought anyway.

I hear the rumor is that JMS wanted to make them Pete's kids and he would have to own up to the responsibility, and that would not have been a bad thing but that was not the case. As it is, it is probably one of the worst Spider-Man stories ever written and the artist during this time period (I forget his name) was probably one of the worst to do Amazing ina long time.

The nerdy kid run was boring and forgettable, then came Peter joining the Avengers. A teribble move, made by Joey Q no less but JMS really dropped the ball writing here. He made Spider-Man the court jester. While Pete was always good for jokes, that wasn't his sole attribute and for him to only be cracking them while getting his ass kicked by everyone on the team was pathetically written.

And the less said about The Other the better. And while it was Joey Q's decision to unmask Spidey, JMS went along with it. I actually think the last issue or two JMS has been writing Peter decently again and the marriage has some freshness again, but overall Civil War has still been a pathetic joke on Peter Parker, ruining who he is supposed to be.

So in the end I see JMS as having two runs really. One of which I think is the most entertaining run on Amazing in a decade adn the other one of the worst (I still think Mackie's relaunch run is probably the worst run on the Amazing title....ever). Too bad for him that most fans will only remember him for the latter stuff.

Civil War would have happened with or without JMS but the rest of the mistakes fal lsoely on him. So I thoroughly enjoy his first 30 issues or so, but after that....well I cancelled my subscription to Amazing didn't I? Stil lI don't hate the guy I think he did a lot of good htings for Spidey and at least when he first joined it was for the better as he replaced the only Amazing writer I down right loathe.

Oh well.

 

[Donald Thomas]

If JMS does leave, all that is ask for him to do before leaves is please please please explain to us who the HELL IS Morlun? Its been like 4 years since he introduced this guy and we dont know jack about him. And yet, this is the guy that killed spider-man. If JMS could do one last story explaining who morlun is, his motives, his powers etc. i'd be satisfied and i would forgive him for his past stories.

Aloha,
For more details on Morlun, his family and their origin, you may want to check out this novel.

For the record-if you go back to these threads before Sins Past- most people did not think that JMS was horiible.People liked Ezekiel and even though the Totem origin was introduced-at no time has Peter himself, ever accepted this idea. I predict that Sins Past will go the way of the Clone Saga.It happened but it didin't. Looking forward to who will take over Amazing as well as other titles this coming year. 2007 will be the year of the Spidey and MArvel will always pull out all the stops during that time.
Spidey rules

 

[Kevin]

Dammit, DACrowe, well said.

 

[The Joker]

Anyone read this: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/magazine/wizard/002865580.cfm

I reckon this is the end of the Spidey marriage.