Comics JMS off Amazing

[kainedamo]

For me to poop on.

I think you missed my point about JMS bringing MJ and Pete back together. Alot of writers didn't think it could or should be done. So you have JMS to thank for doing it and doing it well.

Did you not like issue #36?

I don't think any writers have written May as well as JMS since he's come aboard. If you think someone has done just as well if not better, feel free to point them out.

Anyway, my point is is that JMS is a good writer and has done good stories. Some people here (not all of you) are too quick to say JMS is the worst writer in history or that he's complete crap when that isn't the case. He's a talented writer and he has proved that during his time on AMZ. Two bad stories (arguably completely the fault of Joe Q) don't make him a bad writer.

 

[Doc Destruction]

4 bad stories AT LEAST.

Sins Past
Sins Remembered
The Other
Crappy Molten Man guy

 

[Kevin]

4 bad stories AT LEAST.

Sins Past
Sins Remembered
The Other
Crappy Molten Man guy

He didn't write Sins Remembered, and "the crappy molten man guy" story was called "Skin Deep," and yes, it was complete crap.

 

[The Joker]

ASM#36 was touching, but there were some parts that were just too stupid to overlook. The main one being the entire "Villians can feel sad too" part. Dr. Doom crying over something bad happening to America? Never gonna happen. Doc Ock....maybe, although he's tried to do worse to New York countless times in the past.

Doc Ock......NEVER!!!

We were only discussing this the other day in my Ock fan thread. Ock and Kingpin were completely out of place there. Likewise with Doom. Magneto I could see being there. But not the others.

Ock is a terrorist, who wouldn't bat an eye lid at the loss of a few hundred lives. He's tried to do much worse to New York, and the world.

JMS didn't have to put Marvel's nastiest villains there to illustrate just how tragic 9/11 was.

 

[kainedamo]

4 bad stories AT LEAST.

Sins Past
Sins Remembered
The Other
Crappy Molten Man guy

Jenkins wrote Sins Remembered.

And I'll give ya crappy Molten Man guy. There is noway that story should have been 6 issues long. It would have been alright as two issues. Overall, it bored the hell out of me and was unnecassery.

 

[kainedamo]

Doc Ock......NEVER!!!

We were only discussing this the other day in my Ock fan thread. Ock and Kingpin were completely out of place there. Likewise with Doom. Magneto I could see being there. But not the others.

Ock is a terrorist, who wouldn't bat an eye lid at the loss of a few hundred lives. He's tried to do much worse to New York, and the world.

JMS didn't have to put Marvel's nastiest villains there to illustrate just how tragic 9/11 was.

The way I saw it, their appearance wasn't to be taken completetly literally, if you know what I mean. An issue where people could let continuity slide considering what the story was about.

 

[Kevin]

Jenkins wrote Sins Remembered.

And I'll give ya crappy Molten Man guy. There is noway that story should have been 6 issues long. It would have been alright as two issues. Overall, it bored the hell out of me and was unnecassery.

I thought is was only 4 issues

 

[kainedamo]

Was it?? I can't remember. I think it was 6 issues... I remember thinking it was too long anyway.

 

[Kevin]

Wait, let me check... "Skin deep" Issues 515 - 518. 516 was my first "Amazing" issue that I ever bought.

 

[OctoHaz]

The way I saw it, their appearance wasn't to be taken completetly literally, if you know what I mean. An issue where people could let continuity slide considering what the story was about.

The problem is that it was completely against character and utterly unnecessary. Someone like Kingpin would conceivably mourn the WTC. But the loss of human life would not bother Otto Octavius; the only way he'd be upset at 9/11 would be if one of the less than a handful of people he actually cared about (like May Parker) had been a victim.

So even if one takes the 9/11 comic purely metaphorically, it still doesn't really work to have those villains there.

 

[Marc]

I think you missed my point about JMS bringing MJ and Pete back together. Alot of writers didn't think it could or should be done. So you have JMS to thank for doing it and doing it well.

Did you not like issue #36?

I don't think any writers have written May as well as JMS since he's come aboard. If you think someone has done just as well if not better, feel free to point them out.

Anyway, my point is is that JMS is a good writer and has done good stories. Some people here (not all of you) are too quick to say JMS is the worst writer in history or that he's complete crap when that isn't the case. He's a talented writer and he has proved that during his time on AMZ. Two bad stories (arguably completely the fault of Joe Q) don't make him a bad writer.

JMS split them apart in the first place, he wanted Spidey on his own to 'focus' on. To thank him for that seems insane to say the least. Same as thanking him for not writing a poor Aunt May. Its not an accomplishment to avoid writing crap, its the standard expectation. I don't think he has advanced her character at all to deserve plaudits. Making her think she knows more about what Peter does than Peter, telling him what to do when he got along fine all this time on his own... well its dumb.

I never liked the Morlun story in the first place, I recall being battered for comments against the story. WIth insistance that the magic stuff is just implied and meant nothing etc..

As for 36, it was supposed to be literal. Again JMS at the time defended it spouting BS about how Doom cares about the people and has a line. Riiiight. And I didn't like it either, I thought it was total self-righteous pap. As if that event is the only horror story in the real world worth telling and validating. Its also shooting yourself in the foot to do contemporary things with timeless characters for obvious reasons.

Its an opinion in that regard as to how bad he was, I think he is the worst for many reasons. Active destruction of characters is more negative than the multiple mediocre writers in Spidey's history, and I simply cannot think of another writer to do as much damage to the core mythos. I think he can be a great writer, and I don't think he has come close to being good with Spidey, other titles yes, spidey no. Ignoring opinion though, there are so many factual faults throughout his run to point to as already done that to say he has been great just doesn't wash.

And please the Joe Q stuff is tiring, the guy is an idiot for unleashing JMS but he didn't put a gun to JMS' head about anything. JMS only had a problem and tried to pass it all on after he got the bad reactions. Couldn't simply hold up his hands and say he did wrong, even now he can't as he simply cannot admit he is wrong... ever.

 

[diespinne]

Jenkins wrote Sins Remembered.

Actually, Samm Barnes--JMS's protege--wrote Sins Remembered.

 

[kainedamo]

JMS split them apart in the first place, he wanted Spidey on his own to 'focus' on. To thank him for that seems insane to say the least. Same as thanking him for not writing a poor Aunt May. Its not an accomplishment to avoid writing crap, its the standard expectation. I don't think he has advanced her character at all to deserve plaudits. Making her think she knows more about what Peter does than Peter, telling him what to do when he got along fine all this time on his own... well its dumb.

I never liked the Morlun story in the first place, I recall being battered for comments against the story. WIth insistance that the magic stuff is just implied and meant nothing etc..

As for 36, it was supposed to be literal. Again JMS at the time defended it spouting BS about how Doom cares about the people and has a line. Riiiight. And I didn't like it either, I thought it was total self-righteous pap. As if that event is the only horror story in the real world worth telling and validating. Its also shooting yourself in the foot to do contemporary things with timeless characters for obvious reasons.

Its an opinion in that regard as to how bad he was, I think he is the worst for many reasons. Active destruction of characters is more negative than the multiple mediocre writers in Spidey's history, and I simply cannot think of another writer to do as much damage to the core mythos. I think he can be a great writer, and I don't think he has come close to being good with Spidey, other titles yes, spidey no. Ignoring opinion though, there are so many factual faults throughout his run to point to as already done that to say he has been great just doesn't wash.

And please the Joe Q stuff is tiring, the guy is an idiot for unleashing JMS but he didn't put a gun to JMS' head about anything. JMS only had a problem and tried to pass it all on after he got the bad reactions. Couldn't simply hold up his hands and say he did wrong, even now he can't as he simply cannot admit he is wrong... ever.

I was reading all that taking it in, and then I got to "I think he is the worst for many reasons." That is simply an opinion I cannot take seriously. It's a childish opinion.

To me, it's the equivalent of someone saying "Batman Begins is the worst movie I've ever seen". I can't take that kind of opinion seriously.

And JMS didn't split MJ and Peter up. They were seperated when he came onto the title.

Same as thanking him for not writing a poor Aunt May.

I think his Aunt May is exceptionally good. It's something to be applauded, yes. So many writers in the past had no idea how to handle her, simply repeating everything Stan Lee had done with her.

and I don't think he has come close to being good with Spidey, other titles yes, spidey no.

*shrugs* You don't think he has come close to being good? You sure hard to please. I can see where peoples complaints lie, and I have complaints about his time on Spidey too. But I mean... he's done some exceptional work. Are you a writer yourself? Even the most adamant JMS haters admit his writing is good its just his ideas they don't like. What is it you want from a Spidey title exactly?

 

[Doc Destruction]

Too hard to please?

NO, the fans have let them lower the freaking bar for excellence, and the writers are stepping all over them.

 

[kainedamo]

JMS has been called one of the best Spidey writers by several critics

When someone honestly says that JMS is "the worst" and that his stuff "comes nowhere close to being good", I have to question whether or not we're reading the same stuff.

 

[Marc]

I was reading all that taking it in, and then I got to "I think he is the worst for many reasons." That is simply an opinion I cannot take seriously. It's a childish opinion.

To me, it's the equivalent of someone saying "Batman Begins is the worst movie I've ever seen". I can't take that kind of opinion seriously.

And JMS didn't split MJ and Peter up. They were seperated when he came onto the title.

Childish because you disagree... yeaaah... double standards... heard of 'em? I can put forth a factual analysis of his run listing the 'amazing' amount of c0ck-up's he has made. Some of the worst I have read most certainly. The best you got for 'greatness' was MJ coming back after HE broke them up, and Aunt May not being written as badly as others in recent times... which REAALLLY isn't saying much.

As if I can take people trying to justify actual factual contradictions throughout his run. Then when he digs his hole by admitting it was all on him, pull him out using Joe Q as an excuse. Sorry, but glass houses and machine guns do not a good rebuttal make.

.... yes, at his request. He wanted to come in running was the expression at the time I recall, so it was setup for him.

I think his Aunt May is exceptionally good. It's something to be applauded, yes. So many writers in the past had no idea how to handle her, simply repeating everything Stan Lee had done with her.

Whats she done then...

*shrugs* You don't think he has come close to being good? You sure hard to please. I can see where peoples complaints lie, and I have complaints about his time on Spidey too. But I mean... he's done some exceptional work. Are you a writer yourself? Even the most adamant JMS haters admit his writing is good its just his ideas they don't like. What is it you want from a Spidey title exactly?

I don't like many mainstream titles, I give praise where due though. I think to just limit it to his idea's being bad is silly considering how much he has to change characters to fit into these bad story idea's. Characters define the writing, so no didn't like it. Spidey being some 24/7 dope, not what I consider interesting. And the cast of characters beyond Spidey are few and far between so not like I can look elsewhere within the title. What do I want, the characters to y'know... be in-character, for everything to make sense as in logical progression and for Spidey to be the star in his own title. Many other things but the basics I would consider... basic.

 

[kainedamo]

Childish because you disagree... yeaaah... double standards... heard of 'em? I can put forth a factual analysis of his run listing the 'amazing' amount of c0ck-up's he has made. Some of the worst I have read most certainly. The bets you got for 'greatness' was MJ coming back after HE broke them up, and Aunt May not being written as badly as others in recent times... which REAALLLY isn't saying much.

He didn't break them up, you lunatic!! And even if JMS requested that they be split up before he came on (I find that highly unlikely) he wrote the two characters beautifully. And it's quite a popular opinion that JMS' Aunt May is one of the best.

Whats she done then...

What's she done? A heck of alot, when you think about it. There was that issue where Peter and May had an entire issue of heart to heart talking. When was the last time we've ever had that? She's a stronger person now. She's nowhere near as feeble as she used to be. She's a rock for Peter, instead of a burden. There was that flashback she had where she was at the hospital with Ben. That was scary, but also a heard rending memory for May. Again, adding depth and strength we had never seen before to her character.

I don't like many mainstream titles, I give praise where due though. I think to just limit it to his idea's being bad is silly considering how much he has to change characters to fit into these bad story idea's. Characters define the writing, so no didn't like it. Spidey being some 24/7 dope, not what I consider interesting. And the cast of characters beyond Spidey are few and far between so not like I can look elsewhere within the title. What do I want, the characters to y'know... be in-character, for everything to make sense as in logical progression and for Spidey to be the star in his own title. Many other things but the basics I would consider... basic.

And that's pretty much what we've had the whole way through JMS' run.

Who made Peter a high school science teacher? JMS. Brilliant issue where he stops the kid with the gun, by the way.

Characters define the writing - absolutely correct. Who here can say JMS hasn't always centered his stories around the characters and how they play into Peter's life? Peter's relationships with MJ and May are solid the whole way throughout JMS' run.

The characters have always been in character. Peter has always questioned and refused to believe Ezekiel's theory on his powers.

You want Spidey to be the star of his own title? When JMS came aboard, the books were more centered around Peter than they were in a long time!

For the last 5 years or so, I've laughed out loud reading AMZ so many times I can't even keep count. There have been heart warming moments between the characters. The relationships have always been solid. And I've even been made to cry - something no other comic book has EVER made me do. JMS made me care about Spidey in a way no other writer had - and Spidey was already my favourite superhero!

I'm quite fearful of what the books will be like without him. Part of me wishes the Civil War didn't come about, because it's sort of got in the way of JMS. Joe Q too has got in the way of JMS. Meh, I'm rambiling.

 

[Doc Destruction]

And clearly delusional.

Sorry, but he just wasn't a good writer. Overhyped hack.

 

[kainedamo]

Well, we have very different tastes then.

Answer me this, Doc. What do you think of Joss Whedon's X-Men? And did you like Mark Millar's MK Spidey run?

 

[Doc Destruction]

Fair enough.

I enjoyed Whedon's first X-Men arc. The second one was horrid. It was a blatant rip-off of an old storyline that was told better back then. The third one was okay, but predictable.

Millar's run was very good for some time. I did NOT like Gargan Venom or Norman being behind everything AGAIN. The end was very anti-climactic. I'd give it a B-.

 

[SpideyInATree]

Based on what 'boss'? One of those two stories, the totem **** dominated his entire run... 'the rest' ain't much and it certainly wasn't all good.

I loved the classic 500 issue with adverts for some nothing miniseries, oh and Uncle Ben in a magic box... awesome. Oh and his buddy he beat up in school to look cool coming back to burn stuff, genius. Which of course reminds us of all the original characters he has given us, vampire dude, octopus dude, hulk dude, molten dude, goblin dude, the totally new and original guy with spider powers just like Pete's... I mean its a never ending list of originality and genius. I for one am enriched.

Lets not forget the touching moments either, Dr Doom crying over dead people. Spider-Man struggling, for 2 seconds, to come to terms with Gwen and MJ's utter betrayal. His death, heart wrenching. It was also quite the feat to keep ramping up spider-man's powers yet at the same time make him lose more and more to lesser foes. Ah, and those powers eh... talking to insects... thats been a huge influence on Spidey. I hear there will be a spin off movie franchise with Spidey traveling the world talking to Spiders and getting them to do all his thinking for him.

I was a major JMS fan, his start of the run was dodgey and got worse as it went on. Everything seemed to be either out of character, contradict past events or involve some magic or deus ex machina. But yeah, failing basic writing standards and pointing out the fact makes one an emo... Spider-Man has been a weak, whining, toe the line, idiot for what seems a lifetime at this point. He's been a dullard at the best of times. Even if you happen to like idiocy underlining the character, its is not the character, it is at fault and is therefore wrong. You may like him being ******ed but the character's intelligence is already established and stated as intelligent, so any contradiction to that is wrong no matter how 'good'.

kainedamo - Utter BS, at the time JMS was defending that ***** to the hilt. He was pissing on people from above saying how he had done his homework and it was perfectly acceptable for Gwen to drop knickers for 'charisma'. Only once everyone had basically pointed out he was a hack did it amazingly all become Joe Q's idea, some homework. And what sodding homework do you need to do for Spidey in that instance, why is he on the title if he has no clue about the whole Gwen not being a **** for idiotic plot devices.

Sounds to me like you've got something stuck up your butt. And I hope it's not JMS.

I don't really recall anybody saying that JMS was super original. He was refreshing. He did something that nobody else has done before, he questioned whether Spider-Man's powers were by chance or predetermined. Just like things that happen to real life human beings. Is it all just luck and chance or is it all predetermined? It was interesting. Do you agree that it should have been drug on for as long as it was? You probably don't. You seem to not agree with anything unless it's someone around here bad mouthing something.

The fact of the matter is that JMS breathed fresh air into Spider-Man when he came on the book. He and Romita Jr. really did a great job, in my opinion. Yes, he stunk the place up with Sins Past. We GET the point. We got it when it was first released. And almost THREE YEARS LATER WE GET THE FREAKIN' POINT. It SUCKED. The Other. SUCKED. I get that TOO.

But he wasn't horrible by any means. Your opinions on Peter being written a weak, whining idiot I completely disagree with. It's called story. Build up. Look at the situation that Peter Parker was in. Living at Stark Tower. A part of the Avengers. His family living happily ever after. Tony Stark giving him a job. A new costume, whether you like the look or not it was ten times better than wearing a piece of freakin' cloth. I never saw anything wrong with Peter Parker's character. The only character that's SERIOUSLY out of character has been Aunt May. I'm down with how JMS made her into a stronger woman and all...but we went from frail old, "I'm gonna have a heart attack and die at ANY moment" Aunt May to a "I can own The Chameleon and have a laugh about it" Aunt May.

As I said earlier in the thread. Some posters around here obviously are taking their comic book reading extremely seriously, much more seriously than I ever have or probably will. But even with the guy LEAVING the book now people are still talking like the guy pissed in their cornflakes and then banged their mom. All the guy is, really, is a mid aged, bald man who writes a comic book called The Amazing Spider-Man. And yet people spend precious minutes of their lives tearing the guy down because he doesn't write to their standards. Listen...I disliked things about his story but I'm the type of person to either move on and hope things get better or I just DROP THE BOOK and leave things at a standstill.

As Joe Quesada said in the latest Wizard. It doesn't matter whether people like you or dislike you...they are STILL talking about you. And that's much better than somebody not even mentioning you at all. And whether you like Quesada or not the guy is right when he says that.

How many people are still going to be talking about JMS' run around here after he's gone? Trust me...a lot of you are going to be. It's like the Howard Stern syndrome. You hate something so passionately yet all you do is TALK about that. Waste your hate on something, that quite honestly isn't that important.

JMS is leaving and many are happy that he is. But if you seriously think that things are going to drastically change, you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

 

[Cullen]

As Joe Quesada said in the latest Wizard. It doesn't matter whether people like you or dislike you...they are STILL talking about you. And that's much better than somebody not even mentioning you at all. And whether you like Quesada or not the guy is right when he says that.

How many people are still going to be talking about JMS' run around here after he's gone? Trust me...a lot of you are going to be. It's like the Howard Stern syndrome. You hate something so passionately yet all you do is TALK about that. Waste your hate on something, that quite honestly isn't that important.

I find the whole "It doesn't matter whether people like you or dislike you...they are STILL talking about you" line of thought to be wrong headed. It DOES matter.

I would rather have someone say of my work, "I hated the story, but it was well writen" than "I hated the story, it was a crappy job." Which is exactly what is being said about "Sins Past", about the Totem arc, about "The Other", and the vast majority of Marvel's current output.

JMS is leaving and many are happy that he is. But if you seriously think that things are going to drastically change, you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

Here's where I break with tradition and agree with you completely. I see no reason to celibrate JMS leaving the title until we find out who is replacing him. For his faults, JMS was a capable author. The next writer may not be as good.

 

[Lt. Figgnuts]

Again JMS at the time defended it spouting BS about how Doom cares about the people and has a line. Riiiight.

Maybe I'm mistaken, but I'm fairly positive that Doom's rule in Latveria was a benevolent one. They were treated well.

Doom's not the kind of character to just treat people well because he feels like he has to. If he doesn't want to do it, he won't. So for him to treat his subjects as a benevolent ruler as opposed to a oppressive dictator....well, if you ask me, that shows that he at least cares a little bit for his subjects at the very least, no?

And damn you guys are turning a mountain into a molehill. Sins Past, if probably the worst idea of all time, was at least readable up until part 3 or 4 or so. The Other sucked, but we all know that.

The rest of his run wasn't so terrible though. Everyone else has already made the arguments so I won't repeat them here; I will, however, side with SIAT and say "stop *****ing." Sins Past happened years ago. Get over it.

Or maybe we should start flaming Mackie? I mean, it's not so long ago he was the one ****ing with Peter Parker...

 

[Doc Destruction]

Sounds to me like you've got something stuck up your butt. And I hope it's not JMS.

And yet, you get offended when someone slams you.

I don't really recall anybody saying that JMS was super original. He was refreshing. He did something that nobody else has done before,

Yes, but most of it was terrible.

The fact of the matter is that JMS breathed fresh air into Spider-Man when he came on the book. He and Romita Jr. really did a great job, in my opinion. Yes, he stunk the place up with Sins Past. We GET the point. We got it when it was first released. And almost THREE YEARS LATER WE GET THE FREAKIN' POINT. It SUCKED. The Other. SUCKED. I get that TOO.

Then what the hell are you complaining about? You GET WHY HE SUCKS. CASE CLOSED.

How many people are still going to be talking about JMS' run around here after he's gone? Trust me...a lot of you are going to be. It's like the Howard Stern syndrome. You hate something so passionately yet all you do is TALK about that. Waste your hate on something, that quite honestly isn't that important.

You're correct. Years from now, we'll be remembering how awful his run really was.

JMS is leaving and many are happy that he is. But if you seriously think that things are going to drastically change, you're going to be in for a rude awakening.

I'll take that bet.

 

[Dangerous]

Re- Kainedamo, I will finally get round to kicking your ass in here,
once I get a bit more time online at the weekend.