Joe Quesada Kills The Marvel Universe

[runawayboulder]

My answer... 100%. I know it sounds overly bitter, but I'd have rather seen the company fold and say good bye to the characters I loved than see what he did to them.

I would never go that far.

Listen, we can be here all day on this. Bottom line for me is that Quesada's been a mixed bag. He's done some great things and done some things I wish he never did. He got Marvel's house in order but he also caters to lazy artists (compared to years ago when Marvel chased all their talent away).

I can't give him any credit for the movie side success. The success of the first X-Men movie then the first Spider-Man movie launched all of that. Those movies were already in development way before he was put in charge.

 

[Hawkingbird]

Let us not forget EMH *breaks down and cries*

 

[Themanofbat]

As crappy as OMD was in regards to the actual "story"... it did bring a MUCH-NEEDED breath of fresh air to stagnant Spider-Man books... and everyone wants to put OMD on Quesada's back... fine... but let's be honest... Marvel wanted a single Spider-Man almost immediately after their wedding vows (Clone Saga anyone?)... but nobody could pull the trigger effectively...

But haters gonna hate... lulz... I can't believe I wrote that... I'm so hip.

 

[JewishHobbit]

As you know, we'll disagree on OMD to the bitter end. The title, in my opinion, wasn't stagnant at all, the smell that came from the title post-OMD sure wasn't fresh, and Peter being single honestly did little toward the storylines that's happened since. And just because some people wanted a single Peter since he was first married, doesn't take the weight off of Quesada's back when HE was the one to make it happen.

And to be honest, the Clone Saga answer was far better than the OMD answer. I'd have rather they went with that.

 

[runawayboulder]

Oh, it was stagnant. But OMD wasn't the right answer. TMoB is right, folks at Marvel pretty much wanted a single Peter since the second they got married. The fact that the Wedding issue even happened was because of a perfect storm going on in the Marvel offices at the time.

No matter how it was going down, it was going to be a lose/lose anyway.

 

[JewishHobbit]

You people are crazy. It was only bland from post-Clone Saga through pre-Straczynski. I was loving everything in Straczynski's run. I didn't even mind Sins Past all that much (though I'd prefer that Gwen was raped instead of voluntarily having sex with Norman), and I thought the Other was great. Back In Black was fantastic; in fact I was really looking forward to public identity Peter to see how that played out. I only read Amazing Spider-Man, but I heard fantastic things about some of the other titles going at that time.

Stagnation wasn't the problem at all in my opinion. The title died after OMD in my opinion and still hasn't recovered.

 

[runawayboulder]

The really painted themselves into a corner with the unmasking. All the outside interference didn't help at all. You can't have 5 differing opinions on what to do with a character. Leave it to the writer and editor and only the EiC should be involved beyond that. There were way too many people involved in OMD.

Nevertheless, Spider-Man has been producing on a very high level since Dan Slott took solo reigns of the character.

 

[JewishHobbit]

I loved the unmasking, and I LOVED Back In Black (Amazing anyway, I didn't read the rest). I wanted to see more of that.

 

[Themanofbat]

Just because I called the books "stagnant" doesn't necessarily mean that ALL the books were boring over a 20 year period... there were a few gems here and there, but for the most part, Spidey books from 1987-2007 were mostly dull... in my opinion... and I've been reading the books since 1975.

Micheline's run was dull, especially sue to some editorial "six issue summer stories" that ran during the three summer months... stories that had no consequential effects... Larsen made the book look awful, and having Venom with a huge tongue constantly shouting "Eat Brains!!!" was boring... Clone saga...post-Clone Saga... John Byrne reboot/Chapter One... Jenkins' run on PP:SM was nice, and Straczynski got off to a good start... but whenever he wrote an arc, he had an uncanny ability to fail to deliver on the last part... his ASM #500 was arguably the worst centennial Spider-Issue ever written... maybe Web #100 was the worst... The Other...

But yes, there were some gems, and some really enjoyable stories... but when they get mixed into the boring crap from that period, it made me feel indifferent to Spidey... unlike how I felt from reading his 60's material (thanks Marvel Tales in the 70's), his 70's material and most of his 80's material...

And whether you agree or not, Slott's run on Amazing/Superior has arguably been some of the BEST Spider-Man material since Roger Stern's work in the early 80's... again, just my opinion.

Cheers...

 

[JewishHobbit]

I tried to stick with Slott's run for the first 10 or 12 issues but felt he lacked Spider-Man's voice, and his Peter Parker was bland. A pale comparison to the Peter/Spider-Man I grew up with in the 90s and before. And the comic still feels like it's a step behind pre-OMD days, which is annoying.

And yes, there were some lulls in the 90s-00s, but I disagree with most of your list up there. I loved most of that. And for the record, I'll say Web 100 was the worst centennial issue (it sucked), but at least we had centennials back then unlike today. They're a thing of the past. And no, I don't count these renumbered centennials we get now. Those aren't legit in the slightest, most times having to combined multiple titles and even minis to get to that point. They're just cash in frauds.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

Ah, my favorite subject. You knew I had to comment...

As crappy as OMD was in regards to the actual "story"... it did bring a MUCH-NEEDED breath of fresh air to stagnant Spider-Man books... and everyone wants to put OMD on Quesada's back... fine... but let's be honest... Marvel wanted a single Spider-Man almost immediately after their wedding vows (Clone Saga anyone?)... but nobody could pull the trigger effectively...

But haters gonna hate... lulz... I can't believe I wrote that... I'm so hip.

First off, I wouldn't say stagnant. JMS & JRJR I thought brought life back to the book after much blandness. Unfortunately, JRJR left and Sins Past struck, and that just continued in bad stuff for the Spidey title up to and including OMD. OMD is still the all time low point for the title, in my opinion.

And that gave us BND, which in my opinion was NOT a "breath of fresh air." You had slacker Pete (who was WORSE than he ever was when he was in high school), drunken one night stands, horrible villains (except maybe Mr. Negative), horrible supporting cast that replaced Pete's old supporting cast, and cramming Carlie down our throats. It was abysmal.

But, a "breath of fresh" air was coming, but it wasn't because they got rid of the marriage...

And just because some people wanted a single Peter since he was first married, doesn't take the weight off of Quesada's back when HE was the one to make it happen.

It was definitely editorial interference, no way was it organic. Pete selling his marriage to the Devil to get out of bad situation? Really?

And to be honest, the Clone Saga answer was far better than the OMD answer. I'd have rather they went with that.

I definitely hated the initial reveal that the Pete we read for the past 20 years was a clone, but it was more logical (comic book wise) than OMD.

You people are crazy. It was only bland from post-Clone Saga through pre-Straczynski. I was loving everything in Straczynski's run.

Agree here...

I didn't even mind Sins Past all that much (though I'd prefer that Gwen was raped instead of voluntarily having sex with Norman), and I thought the Other was great. Back In Black was fantastic; in fact I was really looking forward to public identity Peter to see how that played out. I only read Amazing Spider-Man, but I heard fantastic things about some of the other titles going at that time.

...but, you lose me here. Sins Past and the Other were travesties, thrown at us because JMS thought he would be erasing it anyway with his version of OMD (which in some respects, worse than Joe Q's idea). And the unmasking was only approved, because it served its purpose to put Pete in a corner for the Mephisto deal.

The really painted themselves into a corner with the unmasking. All the outside interference didn't help at all. You can't have 5 differing opinions on what to do with a character. Leave it to the writer and editor and only the EiC should be involved beyond that. There were way too many people involved in OMD.

Again, the unmasking served Joe Q's agenda.

Nevertheless, Spider-Man has been producing on a very high level since Dan Slott took solo reigns of the character.

And THIS, NOT BND, is what lead to the "breath of fresh air" in the title. And it wasn't because Pete was single. It was Dan Slott understanding the character (and the cast of characters), along with a healthy respect and knowledge of continuity. And it is his intricate plotlines that we see weaving throught the title until they come together.

Just because I called the books "stagnant" doesn't necessarily mean that ALL the books were boring over a 20 year period... there were a few gems here and there, but for the most part, Spidey books from 1987-2007 were mostly dull... in my opinion... and I've been reading the books since 1975.

I enjoyed the early part of that era, the McFarlane and Larsen years. It was when Pete's "parents" returned, that the series hit the skids for me.

Micheline's run was dull, especially sue to some editorial "six issue summer stories" that ran during the three summer months... stories that had no consequential effects... Larsen made the book look awful, and having Venom with a huge tongue constantly shouting "Eat Brains!!!" was boring...

Disagree. Not a fan of the tongue, but I did love Larsen's work. Loved his Sinster Six stuff! Didn't get dull for me until Bagley came on.

Clone saga...post-Clone Saga... John Byrne reboot/Chapter One... Jenkins' run on PP:SM was nice, and Straczynski got off to a good start...

Agree. Jenkins & JMS were good, then Sins Past started the stumble.

And whether you agree or not, Slott's run on Amazing/Superior has arguably been some of the BEST Spider-Man material since Roger Stern's work in the early 80's... again, just my opinion.

Cheers...

Agree 1,000 %!!!!

So, no, it's not "just your opinion."

 

[runawayboulder]

I enjoyed the early part of that era, the McFarlane and Larsen years. It was when Pete's "parents" returned, that the series hit the skids for me.

Disagree. Not a fan of the tongue, but I did love Larsen's work. Loved his Sinster Six stuff! Didn't get dull for me until Bagley came on.

Agree. Jenkins & JMS were good, then Sins Past started the stumble.

I agree with all this.

BTW, I liked your old avatar, should have kept it.

 

[Hawkingbird]

From what I've read, since Marvel Now things have really picked up.

 

[JewishHobbit]

My favorite time period is Bagely's run, primarily because Amazing Spider-Man 351 (the first ongoing Bagely) was my 3rd ever comic (behind Web of Spider-Man 81 and Spectacular Spider-Man 181). That, running alongside the Harry Osborn Saga in Spectacular Spider-Man, was a fantastic time to read Spidey for me. While I enjoyed Web of Spider-Man from 81 through the Rose stuff until sometime around Infinity Crusade (because it was new to me), I can see why others would dislike it. Adjectiveless was hit or miss for me. I liked Torment, hated everything else until issue 16 (my introduction into the broader X-Men world) and liked it consistently through issue 27. Then I pretty much hated the rest until issue 50 and the Clone Saga.


As far as a line overall, I like it until the second half of the Clone Saga, after Peter left, because I didn't like that switch, but I grew to like it in hindsight. I only read it hit or miss post-Clone Saga until Straczynski's run began. Then I was sucked right back in.

As for post-Romita on Straczynski's run, I liked Sins Past for the art most I think. And I liked the idea of Peter having kids. I HATED the reveal that they were Normans, but got used to it quickly and now I don't mind as much. Ultimately, I still like the arc. The arc with the kid from Peter's school was cool (and I liked that he was Peter's villain, not Spider-Man's) and the New Avengers arc was great. I honestly don't get how everyone hates on The Other. I loved every second of it. The returning as a Spider-like man was wierd, but it was only supposed to happen once so I didn't care. Plus, he's had six arms, was a Hulk, etc. Why not this? I loved the overall story, the honor he was paid by the Avengers, and his new abilities (well, I wasn't sold on the stingers). Then Civil War was interesting, putting his back against the wall. And I always liked darker stories, so Back In Black was fantastic for me. I loved seeing Peter unchained and putting such a cocky powerhouse like Kingpin in his place. Fantastic. I even liked the first two issues of OMD as Peter desperately fought to save Aunt May's life. If the story would have continued that vein to her ultimate death I'd have probably liked it (though Dr. Strange not being able to do anything was stupid).

 

[Themanofbat]

I don't think you'll get much argument about BnB... it was indeed a fantastic story, but in the grand scheme of things, BnB falls into the "few gems" category that listed off earlier... I also enjoyed Aguirre-Sacasa's run on Sensational.

 

[runawayboulder]

ASM hit a dull point when Bagley came on and it really had nothing to do with him. Micheline had just overstayed his welcome at that point. He told all the best stories he had in him but stuck around anyway and the quality took a dive. The DeMatties run going on over in Spectacular at the time was much better and way deeper.

 

[Spider-Gnome]

BTW, I liked your old avatar, should have kept it.

I'm a frustrated Dolphins fan, who was venting against the Icognito controversy and the up and down play of the team.

The thing is, the Dolphins have been winning since the switch, so I can't switch back now!

But, don't worry, I will eventually go back to my old avatar.

 

[Dasher10]

I agree with the above that Dan Slott was the best thing to happen to Spider-Man since JMS. It's probably the best way that things could have turned out after OMD and BND. And I'm willing to forgive Sins Past as a storyline as JMS was the best thing to happen after Maximum Carnage.

My biggest issue with OMD was Carlie as the designated love interest when Carol and Felicia had far more history and chemistry. Either one of them would have been a decent replacement that I'd eventually warm up to after a while. Carlie cooper was just a horrible character on every level and now, after a year's gone by, I'm willing to cave and admit that Superior Spider-Man was the way to fix the series.

By the time that Peter comes back, Carlie will be a distant memory and there will be the potential for the possible conflict that'll happen between MJ, Felicia and Carol instead of an unlikable character rammed down our throats.

That and killing off Steve Rogers was also a good move as it allowed his resurrection to make the character shine again.

That doesn't mean that there weren't a lot of lazy deaths as well. Phoenix, Darkhawk and Psylocke stand out the most to me and so far, only one of those has been retconned.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

As crappy as OMD was in regards to the actual "story"... it did bring a MUCH-NEEDED breath of fresh air to stagnant Spider-Man books... and everyone wants to put OMD on Quesada's back... fine... but let's be honest... Marvel wanted a single Spider-Man almost immediately after their wedding vows (Clone Saga anyone?)... but nobody could pull the trigger effectively...

But haters gonna hate... lulz... I can't believe I wrote that... I'm so hip.

How was putting Peter back to a single guy living with his elderly Aunt a "breath of fresh air"?

 

[Lord]

I was actually liking the direction Spider-Man was going after Civil War, wanted to see more of Jonah during that time

 

[Themanofbat]

How was putting Peter back to a single guy living with his elderly Aunt a "breath of fresh air"?

Geez Louise... he was laying low at Aunt May's house for a few months while the aftermath of Civil War was playing itself out... Peter moves into Vin's apartment by ASM #562, which was 5 months into BND.

Peter needs to be a loner.

He wants love... he wants a life... he wants kids...

But the Spectre of Spider-Man always keeps those things away from him... as it always has... and Peter keeps making the responsible decisions as Spider-Man in spite of it making those things he wants more in life that much harder to achieve...

These aspects had been missing from the books for far too long... and having those elements return is what made the books "refreshing"....

Whatever...

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

As opposed to having him try new and interesting things like get married, join the Avengers, etc.,...

THOSE were all breaths of fresh air, man.

Putting him back to square one, even temporarily, was weak, safe, lazy assed writing.

 

[Themanofbat]

I was bored of his marriage by the time I read Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #8.

And if were actually used properly as an Avenger to his full potential, as opposed to "required comedy", maybe... the only good Spider-Man/New Avengers story was the 6 parter in ASM... and even that story ended with a "blah" note... like many of the JMS six-parters... good stories, failed endings...

Sometimes you have to take a few steps backwards if you really want to move forward.