Live-Action The Little Mermaid

[jmc]

I think the problem is that once you alter the skin colour, no matter how many of the other characteristics of the character remain, there's going to be a disconnect that's hard to overcome. For instance, I follow a lot of cosplayers on Instagram, one of them, a Caucasian girl, did a Storm from X-Men cosplay. Everything about the costume looked like the Storm from the comics, the outfit, the cape, the hair, all of it. But by virtue of her skin colour it didn't register as Storm in my mind, it's someone dressing up as Storm yes, but it never felt like the character. And this goes across other types of characters. A blonde girl in a Supergirl cosplay looks like the character, whilst a brunette looks like someone dressing up as the character. There's nothing wrong with people dressing up as characters who don't look like them, but IMO there's a break in immersion compared to someone who does look like a character. One comes across as authentic, the other is someone playing a part.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Join me on a thought experiment. There are no wrong answers...

Do iconic characters have a certain look that becomes part of the identity of the character?
Is race a part of that "look"? If you take a part of that look away, is this the same character? For example, imagine:

Indiana Jones, minus a whip, leather jacket, and the fedora hat
Captain Hook, minus the pirate get-up and a hook hand.
Popeye, without a pipe, a squinty eye, or anchor tattoos on bulgy forearms.
Superman, wearing a green suit with a yellow cape
The Joker, without the green hair, the purple suit, and the white face (make up or otherwise)
Ariel, without the red hair, the green fish body, and a seashell bra.

Are these the same characters? Now, if you make any of these characters black, does it change the identity of the character more or less than changing or removing their identifiers and accessories?

Superman is arguably the most iconographic character on that list, and one of the most iconographic fictional characters of all time. He also happens to be my personal favorite on a very deep level.

I remember many years ago somewhere on this forum someone posited the idea of a black actor playing Superman and I'm certain I justified to myself that he needs to be white on the merits of upholding his iconography. But at some point I realized that is total b.s.. The idea that a black man can't wear Superman's costume and represent everything Superman means is ridiculous and racist. Yes, his suit needs to be red and blue with the crest of House El emblazoned on his chest. Yes his cape needs to be red. Yes, he needs to be a cheesy Boy Scout who stand for truth and justice. But nothing about his skin color has anything to do with what makes Superman great. Coming to that realization required me to recognize and confront my own racial bias that I was socialized to inherit.

It's hard to confront your own racism, of which we are all afflicted. It's easier to just be offended and lash out proclaiming you're not a racist when someone accuses you of it. But until you are capable of recognizing it in yourself; taking responsibility for it; and adjusting your behavior accordingly, then no amount of stubbornly digging your head in the sand will change the reality of you being racist. If you don't like the idea of being seen as racist, then do the work and make the change.

P.S. writer0327, my use of "you" in this rant is a general you, not you specifically ha. In case that needed to be said.

 

[Lily Adler]

 

[Legendver2]

I think the problem is that once you alter the skin colour, no matter how many of the other characteristics of the character remain, there's going to be a disconnect that's hard to overcome. For instance, I follow a lot of cosplayers on Instagram, one of them, a Caucasian girl, did a Storm from X-Men cosplay. Everything about the costume looked like the Storm from the comics, the outfit, the cape, the hair, all of it. But by virtue of her skin colour it didn't register as Storm in my mind, it's someone dressing up as Storm yes, but it never felt like the character. And this goes across other types of characters. A blonde girl in a Supergirl cosplay looks like the character, whilst a brunette looks like someone dressing up as the character. There's nothing wrong with people dressing up as characters who don't look like them, but IMO there's a break in immersion compared to someone who does look like a character. One comes across as authentic, the other is someone playing a part.

With this whole drama with skin color and race, it always amazes me how the **** Aquaman worked so well lmao.

 

[Silvermoth]

I wonder how they’ll do the sharks without being too scary for the littlies?

Probably exactly like Bruce in finding nemo haha

 

[Charzhin0]

The idea that a black man can't wear Superman's costume and represent everything Superman means is ridiculous and racist.

Its racist and insulting to the black man for him to become a tokenized version of a historically white character.

 

[jolldan]

I wonder how they’ll do the sharks without being too scary for the littlies?

Probably exactly like Bruce in finding nemo haha

I dunno they might beef them up a bit in live action remember the zombie sharks in the last POTC?

 

[Closerframe]

I'll never understand this racial argument. If a character's race is not instrumental in who the character is, then who cares if a studio race swaps them? Characters like Black Panther, Mulan, Aladdin, and Storm, are obviously characters that have their race/culture operate as a central figure in defining who they are. Superman, Batman, and almost every other traditionally white character, can be swapped out at anytime because it doesn't change their story at the end of the day. But most importantly, these changes aren't based on an individual's comfort level of what they've been accustomed to growing up. The counter argument is just make new minority characters instead of being "lazy" but the problem with that premise is the marketability and how recognizable these existing characters are. Aquaman and MCU MJ are just recent examples of characters that worked despite the backlash from The fan base.

 

[jmc]

The Wayne fortune and the family itself has been in existence since the early 1800's. I think there's a pretty good argument there that changing Bruce's ethnicity wouldn't exactly match with the Wayne family history.

 

[Closerframe]

The Wayne fortune and the family itself has been in existence since the early 1800's. I think there's a pretty good argument there that changing Bruce's ethnicity wouldn't exactly match with the Wayne family history.

I'm assuming wealth was only accumulated by one racial ethnicity in the 1800s? Also, since when did the Wayne family's long history ever been mentioned besides a two second line of dialogue in Batman Begins?

 

[Schlosser85]

I'm assuming wealth was only accumulated by one racial ethnicity in the 1800s? Also, since when did the Wayne family's long history ever been mentioned besides a two second line of dialogue in Batman Begins?

In the 1800s United States? The vast majority of the time......yes?

 

[jmc]

I think it's a pretty easy answer to that question. It's in the comics. Bruce's relatives fought in the American Revolutionary War, they acquired their wealth through purchase of land which later became Gotham City. The wealth grew with each generation of the Wayne family, all of which was left to Bruce when his parents died.

 

[Closerframe]

In the 1800s United States? The vast majority of the time......yes?

Just to play devil's advocate here because I think my initial point is being overlooked because of a trivial example. Making Bruce of Spanish descent isn't out of the realm of possibilities given the settlement patterns and affluent families to this day being linked.

 

[ban768]

Never realized how common Hollywood tends to default casting a redhead/ginger character to an African American till now.

 

[daddydivine]

So what is that supposed to mean? I find it funny that whenever a character is black washed people always bring up the white washing of Asian, Middle Eastern and Hispanic characters. If this is about making up for past white washing shouldn't those groups be first in line to replace white characters. But it always seems to be black actors that benefit.

Yeah, I feel bad that black actors have taken a dozen acting jobs from white actors over the course of a century. It's a epidemic!

Quick. Someone get another movie made starring a white actor! So that white actors can receive all these benefits black actors receive. Hurry!

 

[jmc]

Just to play devil's advocate here because I think my initial point is being overlooked because of a trivial example. Making Bruce of Spanish descent isn't out of the realm of possibilities given the settlement patterns and affluent families to this day being linked.

You can apply the exact same line of thinking with literally any character to justify any alteration to make to him or her.

 

[Schlosser85]

Making Bruce Wayne black wouldn't realistically fit very well with his canonical family history, just like there's things about James Bond that are inherent to him being a white old money Brit of a certain age, generation, and background.

 

[jmc]

Bond came from wealth as well, at least from what I remember. He's also meant to be a relic from the past.

 

[jolldan]

Never realized how common Hollywood tends to default casting a redhead/ginger character to an African American till now.

Their gone damn ginergists I tell ya

That is strange thought weird that its always a redhead character.

 

[Closerframe]

You can apply the exact same line of thinking with literally any character to justify any alteration to make to him or her.

No, actually you can't. Bruce/Batman are not defined by their race, they're defined by the wealth and characteristics. Black Panther and Mulan are both characters that you couldn't race swap while retaining the central ethnic components that make them who they are. Your argument of because the character has always been white in the comics has no grounds other than it's what you're use to.

Making Bruce Wayne black wouldn't realistically fit very well with his canonical family history, just like there's things about James Bond that are inherent to him being a white old money Brit of a certain age, generation, and background.

Who said anything about make him black? Just because you race swap a traditionally white character doesn't mean the default is a black person. James Bond is a white old money Brit since when? We barely have had any references to his upbringing besides Skyfall. Prior to that, the theory was the '007' title was a codename passed down from agent to agent. Making him any other race wouldn't change his ability to be a deadly MI6 agent or womanizer.

 

[jmc]

No, actually you can't. Bruce/Batman are not defined by their race, they're defined by the wealth and characteristics. Black Panther and Mulan are both characters that you couldn't race swap while retaining the central ethnic components that make them who they are. Your argument of because the character has always been white in the comics has no grounds other than it's what you're use to.

If someone is born into wealth, with said wealth stretching back to the early 1800's, at a time when the vast majority of the wealthiest people in America were of British/European decent, I think there's a very strong argument in favour that Bruce's European ancestry is important to who he is. Because, if we're taking things from a logical and literal perspective then I agree with you 100% regarding Mulan/BP. But, the problem is we're not. People are treating the likes of Batman as fiction, and the likes of Mulan as literal. Here's the thing. There's nothing about the Mulan story that couldn't be adapted to suit another culture. Nothing at all. And that goes for any story. Literally any story, including Little Mermaid. The same justification you can make in altering the heritage of Bruce Wayne to suit a change in ethnicity, you can do to the Mulan story, or any other story, because here's the truth - it's all fiction. We're not talking about real people who have historical significance. We're talking people who don't exist. And if they don't exist that means they are open to interpretation.

 

[Schlosser85]

007 is a codename, but James Bond himself has always been one character in different continuities.

 

[Schlosser85]

Bond came from wealth as well, at least from what I remember. He's also meant to be a relic from the past.

Yep. A significant part of his character is him being an old money white Englishman with outdated attitudes about the world. Which gets lost if he's cast with Idris Elba. There's just a whole other history there with black Englishmen that changes things about Bond's background which in turn changes his character.

Someone like Perry White being played by Laurence Fishburne doesn't matter. Jack Crawford also being played by Laurence Fishburne doesn't matter. Red in The Shawshank Redemption being white in the novella and played by Morgan Freeman in the movie doesn't matter. Because their races aren't relevant to the stories they're in and don't change anything. But making James Bond a minority would change the character.

 

[Motown Marvel]

Its racist and insulting to the black man for him to become a tokenized version of a historically white character.

How would this be an example of tokenism though? I've always understood tokenism to be represented by shallow characters who only exist as a shallow effort to pander to diversity expectations. But as the main character which the whole story is in service of, I don't see how it could be tokenism for a black actor to be cast as Superman. I don't think filmmakers should be of the mind to cast the actor just for the sake of casting a black actor and then revel in the controversy of it. But if a black actor auditioned for the role and he happened to best embody the character for the story they are telling, then they should absolutely cast him despite the history of Superman always being presented as white.

 

[B]

Superman is arguably the most iconographic character on that list, and one of the most iconographic fictional characters of all time. He also happens to be my personal favorite on a very deep level.

I remember many years ago somewhere on this forum someone posited the idea of a black actor playing Superman and I'm certain I justified to myself that he needs to be white on the merits of upholding his iconography. But at some point I realized that is total b.s.. The idea that a black man can't wear Superman's costume and represent everything Superman means is ridiculous and racist. Yes, his suit needs to be red and blue with the crest of House El emblazoned on his chest. Yes his cape needs to be red. Yes, he needs to be a cheesy Boy Scout who stand for truth and justice. But nothing about his skin color has anything to do with what makes Superman great. Coming to that realization required me to recognize and confront my own racial bias that I was socialized to inherit.

It's hard to confront your own racism, of which we are all afflicted. It's easier to just be offended and lash out proclaiming you're not a racist when someone accuses you of it. But until you are capable of recognizing it in yourself; taking responsibility for it; and adjusting your behavior accordingly, then no amount of stubbornly digging your head in the sand will change the reality of you being racist. If you don't like the idea of being seen as racist, then do the work and make the change.

It is physically impossible for me to disagree with this post anymore than I currently do.

You've went to the trouble of digging into your own psyche for any hidden potential racial bias or motivations when there is simply no need. Sometimes the easiest answer is right in front of you, I don't want there to be a black Superman for the same reason I don't want there to be a white Blade. I want the actors portraying them to look like they've walked straight off the page from the comic or animated features I've seen both characters feature in throughout my life.

It's not that Superman can't be black or Blade can't be white. It's quite simply I do not want it based on the fact that both of them have very iconic & definitive looks, changing anything significant, such as skin, hair, eye (in Superman's case) colour &/or costume appearance, matters quite a lot even if it may seem like it's irrelevant.