The Last Jedi Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (VIII)

[KRYPTON INC.]

Spoiler

Luke walking out of that base like a gunslinger and facing down the might of the First Order was more badass than any saber fight. In that scene Luke was the myth and the legend. Besides, we've seen people bashing sabers together in 7 of the 8 Episode films. This was the biggst display of force power and skill we have seen in the films, and was actually something different.

You are right about one thing tho. It wasn't much of a fight. A fight implies there was a struggle between two opposing forces. Luke wasn't fighting Kylo. He was making Kylo look like a ***** in front of his army.

This Marv. SO this.

Spoiler

Luke pulled off the greatest Jedi Mind Trick of all time with his projection, and then he showed how much mastery he had as a person by so getting into Kylo's head.

 

[Brian Braddock]

Spoiler

Luke walking out of that base like a gunslinger and facing down the might of the First Order was more badass than any saber fight. In that scene Luke was the myth and the legend. Besides, we've seen people bashing sabers together in 7 of the 8 Episode films. This was the biggst display of force power and skill we have seen in the films, and was actually something different.

You are right about one thing tho. It wasn't much of a fight. A fight implies there was a struggle between two opposing forces. Luke wasn't fighting Kylo. He was making Kylo look like a ***** in front of his army.

^^^Indeed. SO MUCH THIS.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Doesn't mean he couldn't have had a fight scene. I can't imagine there was anyone who, prior to seeing this film, were like "you know what would be great? If the most powerful Jedi ever (I think?) who we've waited years to see again, doesn't have a fight scene."

I am sorry but I don't think you paid attention to a single thing Luke said about the force, and Jedis are not just about assaulting people with lightsabers. The prequels may have done that, but that is not what I Jedi supposed to be like. Yoda didn't need a lightsaber neither did Luke. When they gave yoda a lightsaber they sort of ruined him

A Jedi's weapon is not the lightsaber, it is the force

 

[moviedoors]

And what I'm saying, is that these are all things that people like post seeing the film. We have long threads about people being excited to see Luke come back and kick some butt. I would be shocked if there is a single post saying they want him to come back as a pacifist or w.e

I frankly don’t see why it matters if people called it before hand if it works. I’m certainly not going to penalize if for not doing the most obvious thing ever.

 

[titansupes]

I am sorry but I don't think you paid attention to a single thing Luke said about the force, and Jedis are not just about assaulting people with lightsabers. The prequels may have done that, but that is not what I Jedi supposed to be like. Yoda didn't need a lightsaber neither did Luke. When they gave yoda a lightsaber they sort of ruined him

A Jedi's weapon is not the lightsaber, it is the force

Spoiler

I would have been more on board with that if they didn't have him holding the 'saber during the fight. So much build up that says "Here we go! We're gonna see Luke in a lightsaber fight!!"... And then he turns it off after two dodges (one of those dodges being very silly)...

Don't tease the sword fight and not payoff that aspect of the confrontation. Just let Luke stand there and dodge, or block Kylo with the Force-- He's so in tune with everything he doesn't even need the pretense of a lightsaber. Kylo could have attacked him anyway thinking not lighting up a 'saber was another way of screwing with his head.

Like... It's just giving the audience blue balls.

Also bizarre that they build up an Obi-Wan parallels ("If you strike me down--" and a horizontal slash through the body) to lure us into thinking he's going to die, then reveal the projection as if to say "Gotcha, audience! He's not going down today!"... The he fades away to the sound of Kylo being very upset that Luke wouldn't die... And then they immediately go into his REAL fade away death scene.

I like the projection scene (getting closer to love) and LOVE the death scene... But they just don't go together.

 

[FunkMiller]

Spoiler

Luke walking out of that base like a gunslinger and facing down the might of the First Order was more badass than any saber fight. In that scene Luke was the myth and the legend. Besides, we've seen people bashing sabers together in 7 of the 8 Episode films. This was the biggst display of force power and skill we have seen in the films, and was actually something different.

You are right about one thing tho. It wasn't much of a fight. A fight implies there was a struggle between two opposing forces. Luke wasn't fighting Kylo. He was making Kylo look like a ***** in front of his army.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Spoiler

I would have been more on board with that if they didn't have him holding the 'saber during the fight. So much build up that says "Here we go! We're gonna see Luke in a lightsaber fight!!"... And then he turns it off after two dodges (one of those dodges being very silly)...

Don't tease the sword fight and not payoff that aspect of the confrontation. Just let Luke stand there and dodge, or block Kylo with the Force-- He's so in tune with everything he doesn't even need the pretense of a lightsaber. Kylo could have attacked him anyway thinking not lighting up a 'saber was another way of screwing with his head.

Like... It's just giving the audience blue balls.

Also bizarre that they build up an Obi-Wan parallels ("If you strike me down--" and a horizontal slash through the body) to lure us into thinking he's going to die, then reveal the projection as if to say "Gotcha, audience! He's not going down today!"... The he fades away to the sound of Kylo being very upset that Luke wouldn't die... And then they immediately go into his REAL fade away death scene.

I like the projection scene (getting closer to love) and LOVE the death scene... But they just don't go together.

I disagree. They absolutely do.

Spoiler

Luke knew what he was doing. I think Marvolo's post more eliquently puts just how awesome that moment is, but also Luke in doing that projection exhausted himself. His distraction saved everyone, the Jedi torch was passed, and he redeemed himself. He was at peace in his final moment. Now that he was at peace, he could join the Force. It's a wonderful moment.

 

[FunkMiller]

I would have been more on board with that if they didn't have him holding the 'saber during the fight. So much build up that says "Here we go! We're gonna see Luke in a lightsaber fight!!"... And then he turns it off after two dodges (one of those dodges being very silly)...

Don't tease the sword fight and not payoff that aspect of the confrontation. Just let Luke stand there and dodge, or block Kylo with the Force-- He's so in tune with everything he doesn't even need the pretense of a lightsaber. Kylo could have attacked him anyway thinking not lighting up a 'saber was another way of screwing with his head.

Like... It's just giving the audience blue balls.
.

Mark Hamill is 66 years old.

I much prefer what we got, compared to yet another unrealistic fight sequence with an actor’s face digitally grafted onto a stuntman’s body.

Luke Skywalker didn’t need to fight no whiny emo b**ch.

 

[titansupes]

I disagree. They absolutely do.

Spoiler

Luke knew what he was doing. I think Marvolo's post more eliquently puts just how awesome that moment is, but also Luke in doing that projection exhausted himself. His distraction saved everyone, the Jedi torch was passed, and he redeemed himself. He was at peace in his final moment. Now that he was at peace, he could join the Force. It's a wonderful moment.

Oh ****, we're doing spoiler tags here?! I'll edit my post if you edit the quoted part in yours?

Spoiler

Yeah, I got all that. That's not the aspect of it I'm arguing. I'm happy with it on a BIG emotional level that you're describing (non-violent atonement), and somewhat on the literal level (using the Force in such a way killing him... eh...).

But the immediate set-up doesn't click well. It cuts from "You're not killing Luke today, young man! Fade away to victory!" to "Oh no, he's actually fading to death now, too.

Plus, again, don't have him standing with a 'saber if he's not going to use it It'd have been equally effective, if not more so, to have him stand there unarmed and let Kylo make even more of a fool of himself in front of his troops, and getting him all riled up at Luke and his power.

 

[titansupes]

Mark Hamill is 66 years old.

I much prefer what we got, compared to yet another unrealistic fight sequence with an actor’s face digitally grafted onto a stuntman’s body.

Luke Skywalker didn’t need to fight no whiny emo b**ch.

Well, a couple of things-- First, I think Hamill's in fine shape to be able to pull of an elegant style of movie-fighting. Mix that in with a stunt double-- as they did very effectively with those two dodges. People of a similar age have fought just as well across cinema.

It wouldn't be some silly Dooku thing with face grafts and flipping. It'd be true mirror of the opening part of the Luke/Vader duel in ESB (still the best fight in the sage, by the way). When Luke's moves are very cautious and deliberate, and Vader's are slower and calmer (because he knows how much better he is than Luke and he's just toying with him/feeling him out). Have Kylo standing in for Luke (he clearly fears him given the "fire every gun we have at that man" moment) and have Luke being the non-handchoppy version of Vader.

And second, I literally just said my preferred non-'saber version of the scene.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Oh ****, we're doing spoiler tags here?! I'll edit my post if you edit the quoted part in yours?

Spoiler

Yeah, I got all that. I'm happy with it on a BIG emotional level that you're describing (non-violent atonement), and somewhat on the literal level (using the Force in such a way killing him... eh...).

But the immediate set-up doesn't click well. It cuts from "You're not killing Luke today, young man! Fade away to victory!" to "Oh no, he's actually fading to death now, too.

Plus, again, don't have him standing with a 'saber if he's not going to use it It'd have been equally effective, if not more so, to have him stand there unarmed and let Kylo make even more of a fool of himself in front of his troops, and getting him all riled up at Luke and his power.

Since the title doesn't say spoiler, I am just being more safe than sorry, LOL.

Spoiler

I get what you're saying, but what Luke does makes his deception of Kylo work. Kylo is ready for it to be a duel, while Luke is playing chess with him and outsmarts him. I sort of like this more. See, I think Star Wars greatly devolved into Jedis answer all problems with light sabers in the PT.
But, the light saber was never the Jedi's weapon. The Force was, and that is what Luke uses, his mastery of the Force. It shows a level of wisdom that Kylo simply lacks, and to me that made Luke far more awesome than triple flips in the air or trading swords would have. Also, it was more unique.

 

[titansupes]

Since the title doesn't say spoiler, I am just being more safe than sorry, LOL.

Spoiler

I get what you're saying, but what Luke does makes his deception of Kylo work. Kylo is ready for it to be a duel, while Luke is playing chess with him and outsmarts him. I sort of like this more. See, I think Star Wars greatly devolved into Jedis answer all problems with light sabers in the PT.
But, the light saber was never the Jedi's weapon. The Force was, and that is what Luke uses, his mastery of the Force. It shows a level of wisdom that Kylo simply lacks, and to me that made Luke far more awesome than triple flips in the air or trading swords would have. Also, it was more unique.

Spoiler

I guess the old Chekov's Gun quote sums it up for me-- "If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don't put it there."

I get that he was deceiving Kylo with it, and that Luke isn't necessarily big on physical combat anymore (we all had those discussions over and over since 2012). I just think there was a better way of executing the scene right there, that doesn't involve unnecessarily teasing the 'saber lovers.

So I felt kind of cheated twice (the 'saber and the non-death/real death trick)in two big, important ways in the span of like four minutes.

I know RJ's been giving interviews in which he's saying "You can't think about what the audience wants, you think about what you want", and he's right in terms of the telling the story you want to tell. But in terms of HOW you tell that story, you absolutely need to take the audience into account. To try and make clear what you want them to be feeling moment to moment via the writing, the shot choice, the music etc. Make sure it all emotionally tracks not just to the characters, but for us in the seats.

These two things don't add up to me.

It's lucky that everything else plays for me (Hamill's spectacular, I love LOVE the dialogue and what the scene's going for in general etc).

 

[markjoedelonge]

I agree with titansupes. I got massive blue balls from

Spoiler

not seeing Luke kick ass with his lightsaber. It's even worse because they teased his saber-fighting skills during his fight with Rey in the rain. It got even worse when he ignited his lightsaber.

 

[FunkMiller]

I agree with titansupes. I got massive blue balls from

Spoiler

not seeing Luke kick ass with his lightsaber. It's even worse because they teased his saber-fighting skills during his fight with Rey in the rain. It got even worse when he ignited his lightsaber.

Spoiler

But he can’t kick ass with a lightsaber because he’s not actually there. I know he has some physical projected presence in the scene, but a full on lightsaber battle would have been a bit much to swallow, I think.

 

[markjoedelonge]

Spoiler

But he can’t kick ass with a lightsaber because he’s not actually there. I know he has some physical projected presence in the scene, but a full on lightsaber battle would have been a bit much to swallow, I think.

Spoiler

Yeah they pretty much removed any possibility of a real fight with the astral projection thing.

 

[titansupes]

I agree with titansupes. I got massive blue balls from

Spoiler

not seeing Luke kick ass with his lightsaber. It's even worse because they teased his saber-fighting skills during his fight with Rey in the rain. It got even worse when he ignited his lightsaber.

Exactly. A bunch of set-up with no payoff.

Spoiler

But he can’t kick ass with a lightsaber because he’s not actually there. I know he has some physical projected presence in the scene, but a full on lightsaber battle would have been a bit much to swallow, I think.

Very true. So--

-- Just take the 'saber (which was the blue one for some reason?) out of the scene entirely and we're golden. As it is now, it's just awkward.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Exactly. A bunch of set-up with no payoff.



Very true. So--

Spoiler

He is also playing of Kylo's fear for the distraction. By pulling out the saber, he is making the deception seem more authentic and further driving Kylo more insane.

 

[Aximili86]

Whoever said it earlier about what we got was way more interesting & iconic than a duel was so on the money.

What would you even expect from a duel? Luke, at that point, would wipe the floor with him. We know Luke can't bring himself to kill him, from earlier in the movie. What would be the point, narratively? You'd figure Kylo's too dangerous to keep alive by that point, he'd be hard to keep imprisoned.

Instead we get Luke, facing down an entire goddamn army all on his lonesome (a far as Kylo and the First Order are concerned), and then Luke being all dismissive and belittling of Ben in front of his own men, and capping it off with a "you're not done paying for what you did to your pops, you 32 year old whiney teenage punk".

It's the equivalent of how he's defying the Emperor in Jedi, only like if you invert his tone of "talking to all-powerful 80 year old wizard" to "talking down to your unstable entitled nephew who's flown off the rails".

I sort of get the sense the same people up in arms about the lack of a duel are the same people so peeved at the Obi/Maul final confrontation in Rebels because it wasn't flashy. No, guys, it's not flashy. It's poignant, it's character-based, it's right.

 

[titansupes]

Spoiler

He is also playing of Kylo's fear for the distraction. By pulling out the saber, he is making the deception seem more authentic and further driving Kylo more insane.

Spoiler

Yeah, I thought of that and acknowledged it in one of the previous posts. But again-- It sets up the audience an doesn't pay it off. Not in a clever way, just in a "OMG this is happening... Oh, no it's not?" kind of way.

I think Kylo would have been just as freaked, if not more so, if he's activated his 'saber... and Luke just stands there. Maybe there's a line where he demands Luke defend himself, and Luke just calmly raises his arms to the side (that "come at me, bro" kind of thing, which would compliment his little shoulder dust off from earlier). Kylo's both scared about Luke's behaviour (he knows how powerful he is) and blinded by rage at his uncle (who tried to murder him, in his eyes) humiliating him by not even bothering to take a 'saber out, and undermining him in front of both the Rebels and FO.

Then Luke proceeds to dodge and maybe use the Force in clever little ways (kicking dust up at Kylo to distract him or something) just as he does.

It gets Kylo to the same (or better) place emotionally, it makes Luke look even cooler and stays in character, and it intrigues/excites the audience without ****ing with them.

 

[FunkMiller]

Exactly. A bunch of set-up with no payoff.



Very true. So--

I guess part of using the lightsaber is [BLACKOUT]that he’s trying to provoke Kylo to buy the others time.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[titansupes]

^ See my last post above yours. I know his reasoning in the movie, but it doesn't track outside of it.

EDIT: Which still hasn't addressed the arguably much bigger problem of [BLACKOUT]following a death fake-out with his real death, both visualised with fade aways). It just destroys the emotional build for me.[/BLACKOUT]

 

[FunkMiller]

^ See my last post above yours. I know his reasoning in the movie, but it doesn't track outside of it.

Yeah, that’s fair enough. Your version would have worked too... but the way they went with it still makes some internal sense, so I’m still good with it. I guess I was never really bothered about seeing Luke [BLACKOUT]go all superJedi anyway, so the lack of that action wasn’t an issue, even with him being ‘armed’ with the lightsaber.[/BLACKOUT]

....and I hope we can turn this into a spoiler thread at some stage. All this spoiler tagging makes stuff hard to read t:

 

[Mjölnir]

"You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle for Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you?"

Just like THE DARK KNIGHT, this movie isn't resolved by punching, but by characters willing to make tough moral choices learned thru hardship, loss, maturity, and wisdom.

And that's so much more satisfying than more laser-swords.

One doesn't rule out the other. ESB and RotJ had lightsaber duels extremely important for the climax, yet they also tie them in with character moments that are some of the most known in film history.

 

[danoyse]

Instead we get Luke, facing down an entire goddamn army all on his lonesome (a far as Kylo and the First Order are concerned), and then Luke being all dismissive and belittling of Ben in front of his own men, and capping it off with a "you're not done paying for what you did to your pops, you 32 year old whiney teenage punk".

That's exactly what it was.

Spoiler

“Strike me down in anger, and I’ll be with you forever. Just like your father.”

That hurt him more than any lightsaber blow could. Because he knew how much that act weighed on Ben. And that whole “See you around, kid.” was a ‘oh, we are NOT done over what you did to Han either.

It was perfect. It was everything Luke ever was. I will take that over watching a stunt actor CGI’d to look like Mark Hamill doing backflips with a lightsaber.

 

[Aximili86]

Exactamundo.

I'm sort of awestruck people have issues with it. That whole sequence, more than anything, probably felt the most "80s Lucas" to me out of either Disney-era saga movie so far.

It feels so right, and I don't even know why, but it's Star Wars somehow. To the core.