The Last Jedi Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (VIII)

[Brother Jack]

I still can't get over the fact that Luke Skywalker is dead. And to have died without having made any corrections to his mistakes, thus dying as a failure.

What a crappy fate for Luke Skywalker.

If you mean his mistake with Kylo, the situation was more complicated than that, and it was made pretty clear that Kylo is irredeemable, at least at this point in the story. And with his exile, he was able to come back and save the day, even if he wasn't corporeally there. His failures stem from him being unable to live up to his own legend. The force projection allowed him to reconcile himself to his legend, essentially giving his life to help his friends and, as we see, a whole generation of potential Jedi. So there is victory there, unlike Han's death which was all tragedy.

 

[Marvolo]

To say Luke died as a failure a person would have to ignore the entire climax of TLJ. Luke became the myth of Luke Skywalker. His actions on Crait inspired potential Jedi. He inspired the Resistance. He gave Rey time to save the Resistance. He made Kylo look like a weak ***** in front of his army. He psyched Kylo out. And Luke took a full barrage of ballistics from the FO's artillery and Luke walked away without a scratch which no doubt will demoralize some of the FO troops.

 

[Gothamsknight]

To say Luke died as a failure a person would have to ignore the entire climax of TLJ. Luke became the myth of Luke Skywalker. His actions on Crait inspired potential Jedi. He inspired the Resistance. He gave Rey time to save the Resistance. He made Kylo look like a weak ***** in front of his army. He psyched Kylo out. And Luke took a full barrage of ballistics from the FO's artillery and Luke walked away without a scratch which no doubt will demoralize some of the FO troops.

Exactly. hes the legend that everybody speculated he was in the past 30 years. i dont understand why people cant understand this! its brilliant storytelling.

 

[Boom]

Nothing about that last scene screamed "failure" to me.

He kept the Resistance alive, both physically and spiritually, while playing "Supreme Leader" Kylo Ren like a fiddle. He perpetuating the Luke Skywalker Myth, which is what the galaxy needed him to be. He became a new hope, again.

He can blame himself all he wants, but Kylo losing his **** and wiping out the Jedi Academy in no way makes Luke a failure. Just because Luke sees it that way doesn't mean it's true.

 

[Mjölnir]

To say Luke died as a failure a person would have to ignore the entire climax of TLJ. Luke became the myth of Luke Skywalker. His actions on Crait inspired potential Jedi. He inspired the Resistance. He gave Rey time to save the Resistance. He made Kylo look like a weak ***** in front of his army. He psyched Kylo out. And Luke took a full barrage of ballistics from the FO's artillery and Luke walked away without a scratch which no doubt will demoralize some of the FO troops.

Luke was already a legend and a myth, and I've already talked enough about how funny it is that he becomes a legend off something that no one in the resistance actually witnessed (all they saw was him walking out to face the First Order, to never be seen again), and that was spread by a handful of people.

He remains a failure since he gave up on Ben and all his friends and left them to fend for themselves against a new dark lord and his empire. That he eventually showed up and made a "hey, look over here" distraction while a few people escaped doesn't make up for that.

Although maybe Luke doing that apparent suicide distraction is the key to get all these new hyperdrive kamikaze pilots! t:

 

[danoyse]

Nothing about that last scene screamed "failure" to me.

He kept the Resistance alive, both physically and spiritually, while playing "Supreme Leader" Kylo Ren like a fiddle. He perpetuating the Luke Skywalker Myth, which is what the galaxy needed him to be. He became a new hope, again.

He can blame himself all he wants, but Kylo losing his **** and wiping out the Jedi Academy in no way makes Luke a failure. Just because Luke sees it that way doesn't mean it's true.

Exactly. He gave the Resistance the opening they needed to escape, displayed a an awesome use of the Force no one had ever seen before, humiliated Kylo, handed the First Order an equally embarrassing defeat.

Did he fail with Ben? Yes, he even admitted to that during their confrontation. But he learned to rise from failure and help when he was needed the most.

 

[Herolee10]

If you mean his mistake with Kylo, the situation was more complicated than that, and it was made pretty clear that Kylo is irredeemable, at least at this point in the story. And with his exile, he was able to come back and save the day, even if he wasn't corporeally there. His failures stem from him being unable to live up to his own legend. The force projection allowed him to reconcile himself to his legend, essentially giving his life to help his friends and, as we see, a whole generation of potential Jedi. So there is victory there, unlike Han's death which was all tragedy.

When I said failure, I was referring to how Luke never ended up leaving the island that he had exiled himself to and how he was never able to restore the Jedi order.

And in some ways his death is more tragic than others because Luke was all on his own when he died, with none of his loved ones around when he passed away.

I'm also more irked by the fact that Luke, like Han before him, was just used as a glorified stepping stool for a new character to use in order to achieve a higher status (e.g. Rey).
The idea that the idealistic farmboy that I saw grow into one of the galaxy's biggest heroes, only for his life to have ended without love and in failure is just depressing.

Personally, I would have preferred episode 8 to have been about Luke and Rey both leaving the island and going on an adventure together.

 

[Herolee10]

Luke surviving would have made me more forgiving of what I think was a misrepresentation of the character. Had he lived that problem would at least just have been a speed bump and there would be a chance to see a more true version of him in the next episode. Now he pretty much didn't amount to anything more than the failure and there's no way to come back from that. Seeing him as a force ghost will not change anything for me.

Agreed.

Plus, that whole scene with Rey and Kylo taking out Snoke's guards should have been her doing that with Luke instead imho.

After 3 decades of waiting to see Luke again and they throw away all of the potential scene stealers that they could have had with him if they had kept him alive.

Yes, I get that a Jedi is not all about that but it doesn't mean that Jedi Knights have never been put in situations where they needed to kick some ass and the folks involved should have done better to create a story that would have allowed for such a moment.

 

[danoyse]

When I said failure, I was referring to how Luke never ended up leaving the island that he had exiled himself to and how he was never able to restore the Jedi order.

And in some ways his death is more tragic than others because Luke was all on his own when he died, with none of his loved ones around when he passed away.

I'm also more irked by the fact that Luke, like Han before him, was just used as a glorified stepping stool for a new character to use in order to achieve a higher status (e.g. Rey).
The idea that the idealistic farmboy that I saw grow into one of the galaxy's biggest heroes, only for his life to have ended without love and in failure is just depressing.

Personally, I would have preferred episode 8 to have been about Luke and Rey both leaving the island and going on an adventure together.

I didn’t feel like he was alone, though. He was able to reach out through the Force to the person he loved most (Leia), and know that he was loved in return. Hell, even Threepio was amazed to see him. Yoda told him a long ago that “luminous beings are we”, and I think even though he was by himself on the island, he wasn’t really alone.

I feel like a lot of the things we learned about the Force in Empire were on display in this movie, and it showed Luke coming full circle as a Jedi by everything he did in the final scenes.

 

[danoyse]

Yes, I get that a Jedi is not all about that but it doesn't mean that Jedi Knights have never been put in situations where they needed to kick some ass and the folks involved should have done better to create a story that would have allowed for such a moment.

But...

“Great warrior? Wars not make one great.”

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.”

The Jedi Knights threw themselves into the Clone Wars and ended up deceived and dead. The ability to kick ass hasn’t much worked out for them.

 

[Herolee10]

But...

“Great warrior? Wars not make one great.”

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.”

The Jedi Knights threw themselves into the Clone Wars and ended up deceived and dead. The ability to kick ass hasn’t much worked out for them.

But even before the Clone Wars, the old Jedi order had been involved in events that called them to action, such as the wars between them and the original Sith order.

I'm not saying that Luke needed to fight in ordered to be considered great but it feels like Rian really cared less on what fans would have wanted to see out of Luke after a 30 year absence from the big screen.

I mean if I were to sum up the usage of Luke's character from TFA to TLJ, It's just been all one big tease to the fans.

We get Luke but at the same time, we don't really get him.

I'm honestly on Mark's side when he said on how he fundamentally disagreed with every creative choice made regarding his character.

.

 

[Mjölnir]

The Jedi have always been warriors. There's a reason they are called Jedi knights, always armed, and history shows why with all desired clarity. They are just not supposed to be instigating conflict or long for battle.

They are martial defenders of peace and order, not pacifists.

 

[Marvolo]

The Jedi have always been warriors. There's a reason they are called Jedi knights, always armed, and history shows why with all desired clarity. They are just not supposed to be instigating conflict or long for battle.

They are martial defenders of peace and order, not pacifists.

This is a philosophical debate that's surrounded the Jedi in-universe. Barris's entire arc in TCW is based around the idea that the Jedi lost their way and betrayed their original ideals.

So I think it's good that Yoda went back to the basics and strove to be better. Hence,

“Great warrior? Wars not make one great.”

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.”

The Clone Wars effected Yoda and had an impact on his philosophy. And because Yoda trained Luke I think it's good that Luke in the end was a realization of Yoda's ideals. Luke embraces these ideas. He strove to be better. He strove to be the Jedi that Yoda trained him to be. He saved the Resistance, showed the Resistance and the galaxy that people can stand up to the FO, he cemented his myth, he inspired future Jedi, he compromised Kylo. He was a "spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down." Luke accomplished all of that and he did it without attacking or hurting a single living being. That's amazing.

Y'all wanted fan service, I enjoy fanservice too, and yall wanted to see Luke "kick ass" by attacking people, but the way he "kicks ass" in TLJ is ultimately better for the character, and it resonates with Yoda's lessons, and it's a fulfillment of things that have come before. And it shows Luke being more than just a warrior that attacks his enemies.

 

[danoyse]

But even before the Clone Wars, the old Jedi order had been involved in events that called them to action, such as the wars between them and the original Sith order.

I'm not saying that Luke needed to fight in ordered to be considered great but it feels like Rian really cared less on what fans would have wanted to see out of Luke after a 30 year absence from the big screen.

I mean if I were to sum up the usage of Luke's character from TFA to TLJ, It's just been all one big tease to the fans.

We get Luke but at the same time, we don't really get him.

I'm honestly on Mark's side when he said on how he fundamentally disagreed with every creative choice made regarding his character.

.

It seemed more like Rian stayed true to the ideals of what the Jedi were supposed to be, and that’s what made Luke’s final act so great.

What he was at the start of TLJ was along the lines of what I expected when I saw TFA and learned he’d lost his own nephew to the dark side. My assumption was that Luke was in a bad place mentally, at the end, I left hoping Rey could be the bit of hope he needed to bring him back to the fight.

I haven't really been waiting 30 years to see Luke again. I’m delighted to see him again, but I also feel like I said goodbye to these characters when I was 9 years old, and certainly never expected to see them again. As much as they have aged...hell, I’m 30 years older too, and it makes sense that things are different for them all, and not always in the way you expect.

Some of the backlash (not your comments, just in general) actually have me glad I outgrew SW after 1983, so I can appreciate the passage of time a little more I was never expecting to see the same Luke again.

 

[Herolee10]

This is a philosophical debate that's surrounded the Jedi in-universe. Barris's entire arc in TCW is based around the idea that the Jedi lost their way and betrayed their original ideals.

So I think it's good that Yoda went back to the basics and strove to be better. Hence,

“Great warrior? Wars not make one great.”

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.”

The Clone Wars effected Yoda and had an impact on his philosophy. And because Yoda trained Luke I think it's good that Luke in the end was a realization of Yoda's ideals. Luke embraces these ideas. He strove to be better. He strove to be the Jedi that Yoda trained him to be. He saved the Resistance, showed the Resistance and the galaxy that people can stand up to the FO, he cemented his myth, he inspired future Jedi, he compromised Kylo. He was a "spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down." Luke accomplished all of that and he did it without attacking or hurting a single living being. That's amazing.

Y'all wanted fan service, I enjoy fanservice too, and yall wanted to see Luke "kick ass" by attacking people, but the way he "kicks ass" in TLJ is ultimately better for the character, and it resonates with Yoda's lessons, and it's a fulfillment of things that have come before. And it shows Luke being more than just a warrior that attacks his enemies.

So in other words, It's wrong of us to want some fan service and that Jedi Masters like Luke should never be used for actual combat scenes since it would go completely against 2 lines that Yoda said to Luke?

 

[danoyse]

So in other words, It's wrong of us to want some fan service and that Jedi Masters like Luke should never be used for actual combat scenes since it would go completely against 2 lines that Yoda said to Luke?

Well, they were some important lines that explained the meaning of using the Force, so...

They could have just given him a lightsaber fight, but I like what we got far more than what ultimately be a stuntman CGI’d to look like Mark Hamill flipping around just because lightsaber fights look cool.

 

[Mjölnir]

This is a philosophical debate that's surrounded the Jedi in-universe. Barris's entire arc in TCW is based around the idea that the Jedi lost their way and betrayed their original ideals.

So I think it's good that Yoda went back to the basics and strove to be better. Hence,

“Great warrior? Wars not make one great.”

“A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack.”

The Clone Wars effected Yoda and had an impact on his philosophy. And because Yoda trained Luke I think it's good that Luke in the end was a realization of Yoda's ideals. Luke embraces these ideas. He strove to be better. He strove to be the Jedi that Yoda trained him to be. He saved the Resistance, showed the Resistance and the galaxy that people can stand up to the FO, he cemented his myth, he inspired future Jedi, he compromised Kylo. He was a "spark that will light the fire that will burn the First Order down." Luke accomplished all of that and he did it without attacking or hurting a single living being. That's amazing.

Y'all wanted fan service, I enjoy fanservice too, and yall wanted to see Luke "kick ass" by attacking people, but the way he "kicks ass" in TLJ is ultimately better for the character, and it resonates with Yoda's lessons, and it's a fulfillment of things that have come before. And it shows Luke being more than just a warrior that attacks his enemies.

Obi-Wan and Yoda train Luke so he can confront Vader and Sidious. Yoda is clearly referring to that Luke shouldn't be so eager for war and battle. A Jedi fights because he has to and that's not what makes him great. I don't think any other interpretation makes any sense together with the reason for which they train him.

I didn't say anything about what I wanted (save for Luke not being written contrary to his core attributes, which is not about him swinging a lightsaber), I just responded to the notion that Jedi aren't fighters. Do any of you actually think that Rey will stop fighting now?

As a side note, on the topic of comparing to other SW works, we've also started to see that the new canon system is starting to tear at the edges. TLJ has Rey and Poe act like they meet for the first time, yet they did meet in the novelization of TFA, which is supposed to be canon.

 

[Kahran Ramsus]

Nothing about that last scene screamed "failure" to me.

He kept the Resistance alive, both physically and spiritually, while playing "Supreme Leader" Kylo Ren like a fiddle. He perpetuating the Luke Skywalker Myth, which is what the galaxy needed him to be. He became a new hope, again.

He can blame himself all he wants, but Kylo losing his **** and wiping out the Jedi Academy in no way makes Luke a failure. Just because Luke sees it that way doesn't mean it's true.

Ben failed Luke way more than Luke failed Ben. At least from what we've seen.

 

[Agent Orange]

Well, they were some important lines that explained the meaning of using the Force, so...

They could have just given him a lightsaber fight, but I like what we got far more than what ultimately be a stuntman CGI’d to look like Mark Hamill flipping around just because lightsaber fights look cool.

I'd argue that the prequels made lightsaber fights "uncool" in Clones and Sith. They were over choreographed nonsense.

I still dig The Phantom Menace's climactic confrontation but it's best moments are still represented in substance over style. Qui-Gon patiently waiting for the shield to go away. The brief John Williamsless clash between Darth Maul and Qui-Gon before his death and Obi-Wan's helplessness. It's palpable, powerful stuff and perhaps an underappreciated scene in George Lucas's filmography considering that the previous, flashy, "Duel of the Fates" segment gets more attention.

Kylo Ren and Rey vs The Praetorian guards evoked feelings that I get when I watch samurai films. Luke's face-off with Ren elicited those same feelings with a touch of John Ford and classic western showdowns.

Give me substance over flash everytime. I also appreciate what JJ did with the clash in the snow in Force Awakens. Driver's feral intensity buoys it and it's a beautiful setting. All three lightsaber showdowns in the sequel trilogy have beautiful settings.

 

[danoyse]

I'd argue that the prequels made lightsaber fights "uncool" in Clones and Sith. They were over choreographed nonsense.

I still dig The Phantom Menace's climactic confrontation but it's best moments are still represented in substance over style. Qui-Gon patiently waiting for the shield to go away. The brief John Williamsless clash between Darth Maul and Qui-Gon before his death and Obi-Wan's helplessness. It's palpable, powerful stuff and perhaps an underappreciated scene in George Lucas's filmography considering that the previous, flashy, "Duel of the Fates" segment gets more attention.

Kylo Ren and Rey vs The Praetorian guards evoked feelings that I get again I watch samurai films. Luke's face-off with Ren elicited those same feelings with a touch of John Ford and classic western showdowns.

Give me substance over flash everytime. I also appreciate with JJ did with the clash in the snow in Force Awakens. Driver's feral intensity buoys it and it's a beautiful setting. All three lightsaber showdowns in the sequel trilogy have beautiful settings.

Agreed. I absolutely love lightsaber fights. The Rey/Kylo teamup was amazing because I didn’t expect it at ALL, and it was jut something we hadn’t seen before and it was wild.

With Luke...I don’t necessarily associate him with lightsaber fights, at least not in a badass sort of way. He lost his first duel with Darth Vader, and during his last duel he wound up tossing his lightsaber and refusing to strike the final blow.

The Phantom Menace duel was cool, because this was the Jedi in their prime. I remember even Lucas saying he wanted to amp it up because in the original movies the duels involved old men, half-machines, and inexperienced teenagers.

That shot of Luke walking out of the Rebel base and facing the walkers on the battlefield is one of the most epic shots I’ve ever seen in SW film. And I especially love that the three Resistance fighters standing behind Poe as Luke walks out there were Mark Hamill’s kids. That was such a nice touch.

I love that TLJ did so many things I didn’t expect, but I thought it really honored the story that the three original movies told. Just not in the obvious way you thought it would.

 

[Adhesive Boy]

I couldn't enjoy Luke walking out to confront the First Order since the entire scene was just overshadowed by the notion that something was off. It was obvious that something was off, but not exactly how so that question dominated everything. That silly shoulder brush was also so out of place in Star Wars, especially with an OT character.

I think it all amounted to a terrible attempt at something like Gandalf's sacrifice against the Balrog. It didn't live up to that in any aspect.

 

[Agent Orange]

Agreed. I absolutely love lightsaber fights. The Rey/Kylo teamup was amazing because I didn’t expect it at ALL, and it was jut something we hadn’t seen before and it was wild.

With Luke...I don’t necessarily associate him with lightsaber fights, at least not in a badass sort of way. He lost his first duel with Darth Vader, and during his last duel he wound up tossing his lightsaber and refusing to strike the final blow.

The Phantom Menace duel was cool, because this was the Jedi in their prime. I remember even Lucas saying he wanted to amp it up because in the original movies the duels involved old men, half-machines, and inexperienced teenagers.

That shot of Luke walking out of the Rebel base and facing the walkers on the battlefield is one of the most epic shots I’ve ever seen in SW film. And I especially love that the three Resistance fighters standing behind Poe as Luke walks out there were Mark Hamill’s kids. That was such a nice touch.

I love that TLJ did so many things I didn’t expect, but I thought it really honored the story that the three original movies told. Just not in the obvious way you thought it would.

Have you watched Star Wars: Clone Wars and/or Star Wars Rebels?

Because the latter gave me one of my favourite lightsaber face-offs.

Spoiler

Obi-Wan and Darth Maul's final meeting.

[YT]jeG215-yu-k[/YT]

Possibly the most realistic "sword fight" ever portrayed in Star Wars too. Over as soon as it starts and yet there's so much going on in the scene. In the build up and the brief clash. The entire scene is beautiful.

 

[Mjölnir]

I'm not a fan of Rebels, but I did see that Youtube clip before and I have to say that it was a fantastic scene.

Spoiler

It's also pretty cool how Obi-Wan changes stance to the one Qui-Gon used and then counters when Maul goes for the same move that killed his master.

 

[Agent Orange]

Rebels is a series of stops and starts. Far too sporadic for me to call it great, but when Filoni and co. hit the mark they hit the mark. Dave is also pretty obsessed with Mandalorian mythology and he sometimes lets it overwhelm his storytelling. It is preferable to the persistent "steal bombs and embarrass Stormtroopers" plots, though.

I really dig what they've done with Thrawn, and Lars Mikkelsen is great, but I don't know what their end game is there. I do know that Timothy Zahn is tasked with writing another Thrawn novel.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

I still get chills looking at this.