The Last Jedi Mark Hamill as Luke Skywalker (VIII)

[KRYPTON INC.]

Gee, you sound very confident.

I hope you are right...

Have you seen what SW action figures have been produced over the years?

But... You doubt they will make one of Luke from TLJ?

 

[Mjölnir]

I think it still works. Why would people think Kylo came out on top? Kylo clearly makes a hit on Luke, and Luke is unaffected. Then Kylo points his saber through him, and Luke is still unaffected. It’s not until Kylo has been made to look like a fool (and the resistance has escaped) that Luke disappears.

Kylo comes out with egg on his face in this scenario no matter how you spin it. Hence the legend. Luke appears all powerful.

No one sees clearly what's happening, and no one has any knowledge to understand what's actually going on either. All they see is Luke surviving a bombardment, Kylo going down to deal with it himself, and the result is that Luke doesn't walk away while Kylo does. Luke is also most likely never seen again by a non-force sensitive person.

Why would Luke seem all powerful to anyone? Not even Luke thought that Obi-Wan beat Vader in ANH. Quite the contrary, he thought Vader straight up killed him. The legend makes little sense and is clearly part lie so the Resistance could clearly have come up with any fake story and it would have spread according to the film.

 

[markjoedelonge]

I wouldn't count on the First Order seeing Luke humiliate Kylo. They couldn't even see Rose and Finn right in front of them.

 

[Drizzle]

Have you seen what SW action figures have been produced over the years?

But... You doubt they will make one of Luke from TLJ?

Speaking as someone who used to be a collector, honestly, Star Wars figures aren't what they used to be. Back in the day they would make every single character in every outfit along with the background aliens that got .01 second of screentime. For these new movies they're being very frugal. Will there be a figure of Crait Luke someday? Probably. But considering they haven't even made a 3 3/4" inch figure of Leia in her main outfit from The Force Awakens yet (with the vest), who knows how long it will be?

 

[sueb1863]

The surviving members of the Resistance got away to fight again while Luke held Kylo and the First Order at bay. That's all anybody is going to remember - Kylo couldn't get by one man and wipe out the Resistance forever.

It's definitely a humiliation for Kylo and the First Order, and you can bet Hux is going to exploit it to the max, that they could have ended the Resistance forever if Kylo hadn't let his childish pride and hatred for Luke get in the way.

That's how I read it, anyway.

 

[Mjölnir]

The surviving members of the Resistance got away to fight again while Luke held Kylo and the First Order at bay. That's all anybody is going to remember - Kylo couldn't get by one man and wipe out the Resistance forever.

It's definitely a humiliation for Kylo and the First Order, and you can bet Hux is going to exploit it to the max, that they could have ended the Resistance forever if Kylo hadn't let his childish pride and hatred for Luke get in the way.

That's how I read it, anyway.

Calling Luke Skywalker just "one man" is disregarding the OT way more than even TLJ did. He's a legendary warrior and someone that set fear in even their supreme leader, Snoke. Also someone that apparently could survive the bombardment of all the vehicles they had on the planet. Hardly just one man.

I can't even in my wildest imagination see anyone say that Kylo failed because he beat Luke too slowly. He should be even more feared than before if he could stand his ground with Luke, let alone defeat him. Kylo is still way too weak to be the main villain of the trilogy for us viewers, but in the eyes of the First Order he should be revered.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

I loved all of Luke's outfits. Crait's outfit was just pure beauty.

Yes, yes it was.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

Have you seen what SW action figures have been produced over the years?

But... You doubt they will make one of Luke from TLJ?

Well it's kind of a spoiler (projected Luke). I hope we will get one....

 

[danoyse]

Calling Luke Skywalker just "one man" is disregarding the OT way more than even TLJ did. He's a legendary warrior and someone that set fear in even their supreme leader, Snoke. Also someone that apparently could survive the bombardment of all the vehicles they had on the planet. Hardly just one man.

I can't even in my wildest imagination see anyone say that Kylo failed because he beat Luke too slowly. He should be even more feared than before if he could stand his ground with Luke, let alone defeat him. Kylo is still way too weak to be the main villain of the trilogy for us viewers, but in the eyes of the First Order he should be revered.

Except Kylo Ren failed and the First Order forces on Crait saw him fail. Look at the way Hux was glaring at him when they marched into the base. The Rebels were gone, Luke was gone. They lost.

They have absolutely nothing to show for that battle, except an unhinged leader who stopped the march on the base that surely would have destroyed the Resistance just to settle a score with his uncle, who utterly outsmarted him.

There’s no “Luke disappeared so Kylo must have won!” point of view from the First Order here. The goal was to destroy the Resistance. The Resistance escaped. Luke showed up to distract Kylo Ren and Kylo completely fell for it. Any notion that Kylo won disappears when you realized that the First Order failed to destroy the Resistance.

 

[Mjölnir]

Except Kylo Ren failed and the First Order forces on Crait saw him fail. Look at the way Hux was glaring at him when they marched into the base. The Rebels were gone, Luke was gone. They lost.

They have absolutely nothing to show for that battle, except an unhinged leader who stopped the march on the base that surely would have destroyed the Resistance just to settle a score with his uncle, who utterly outsmarted him.

There’s no “Luke disappeared so Kylo must have won!” point of view from the First Order here. The goal was to destroy the Resistance. The Resistance escaped. Luke showed up to distract Kylo Ren and Kylo completely fell for it. Any notion that Kylo won disappears when you realized that the First Order failed to destroy the Resistance.

Why would anyone assume anything but that Kylo won if Luke is no more? And why would anyone expect more than that of him when it's the legendary Luke Skywalker?

I'm starting to feel like I get the reason why some are so much less affected by some changes from the OT when I see people downplay Luke like that.

 

[danoyse]

Why would anyone assume anything but that Kylo won if Luke is no more? And why would anyone expect more than that of him when it's the legendary Luke Skywalker?

I'm starting to feel like I get the reason why some are so much less affected by some changes from the OT when I see people downplay Luke like that.

All the First Order has to do was continue marching towards the old Rebel base and destroying it and everyone inside with that cannon and all of the artillery they brought with him. They were minutes away from doing so.

It was Kylo who stopped them from moving in, because he spotted Luke. He order them to fire everything they had on him, and nothing happened to him. They all saw this.

And while Kylo was busy screwing around trying to defeat Luke, the entire Resistance escaped! Luke took off as soon as they were clear. The First Order had victory in their hands and it slipped away because Kylo Ren fell for it. They understood Luke was just distracting him and it worked. And again, watch the way Hux glares at him in that empty Rebel base. The First Order hates Kylo Ren.

And that is not downplaying Luke’s role. He showed what was possibly the most awesome display of the Force that we’ve seen in 40 years of Star Wars movies. It was everything that we learned about the Force from ESB: Luke showed up on Dagobah, looking for “a great warrior” and was taught that “wars not make one great”, “luminous beings we are, not this crude matter”, and that a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. It was all there. It was everything we ever learned about the power of the Force.

Luke faced his own demons, helped the Resistance escape, and displayed a show of the Force that lit a spark that inspired everyone from the Rebellion to slave children on Crait.

Everything Kylo did on Crait was wrong. The Rebellion was reborn, the war was just beginning, and Luke is not the last Jedi.

 

[Mjölnir]

All the First Order has to do was continue marching towards the old Rebel base and destroying it and everyone inside with that cannon and all of the artillery they brought with him. They were minutes away from doing so.

It was Kylo who stopped them from moving in, because he spotted Luke. He order them to fire everything they had on him, and nothing happened to him. They all saw this.

And while Kylo was busy screwing around trying to defeat Luke, the entire Resistance escaped! Luke took off as soon as they were clear. The First Order had victory in their hands and it slipped away because Kylo Ren fell for it. They understood Luke was just distracting him and it worked. And again, watch the way Hux glares at him in that empty Rebel base. The First Order hates Kylo Ren.

And that is not downplaying Luke’s role. He showed what was possibly the most awesome display of the Force that we’ve seen in 40 years of Star Wars movies. It was everything that we learned about the Force from ESB: Luke showed up on Dagobah, looking for “a great warrior” and was taught that “wars not make one great”, “luminous beings we are, not this crude matter”, and that a Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense, never for attack. It was all there. It was everything we ever learned about the power of the Force.

Luke faced his own demons, helped the Resistance escape, and displayed a show of the Force that lit a spark that inspired everyone from the Rebellion to slave children on Crait.

Everything Kylo did on Crait was wrong. The Rebellion was reborn, the war was just beginning, and Luke is not the last Jedi.

Since Luke was seemingly powerful enough to withstand that bombardment, why wouldn't the First Order soldiers think the same thing as the legend now says - that Luke could stand up to all of them on his own?

And my point about you downplaying Luke is that you think Luke is such a wimp that people would actually think that Kylo was a failure because he fought him and he didn't win fast enough. Luke should be such a legend that Kylo should become revered/feared just for fighting Luke and holding his own, let alone win. Kylo went out there and fought the legend, that had just proven his legend true by withstanding severe bombardment, and there's now no more Luke Skywalker. If anyone should have a legend told after TLJ it's Kylo Ren.

 

[danoyse]

Since Luke was seemingly powerful enough to withstand that bombardment, why wouldn't the First Order soldiers think the same thing as the legend now says - that Luke could stand up to all of them on his own?

And my point about you downplaying Luke is that you think Luke is such a wimp that people would actually think that Kylo was a failure because he fought him and he didn't win fast enough. Luke should be such a legend that Kylo should become revered/feared just for fighting Luke and holding his own, let alone win. Kylo went out there and fought the legend, that had just proven his legend true by withstanding severe bombardment, and there's now no more Luke Skywalker. If anyone should have a legend told after TLJ it's Kylo Ren.

Amazing. Everything you just said is wrong.

I literally just said that Luke showed the most awesome display of the Force that we’ve seen in 40 years of Star Wars, and all you got from that is that you think I called him a wimp. Good lord...

Kylo Ren didn’t win against Luke Skywalker, the Resistance escaped, and everyone saw that. There’s no other version of this.

If that all looked like a Kylo Ren “win” to you, no wonder you didn’t get this movie.

 

[Mjölnir]

Amazing. Everything you just said is wrong.

I literally just said that Luke showed the most awesome display of the Force that we’ve seen in 40 years of Star Wars, and all you got from that is that you think I called him a wimp. Good lord...

Kylo Ren didn’t win against Luke Skywalker, the Resistance escaped, and everyone saw that. There’s no other version of this.

If that all looked like a Kylo Ren “win” to you, no wonder you didn’t get this movie.

We were talking about how bystanders in that world view the event, not how we as the audience view it since that's a completely different thing as we know all the details of the actual truth. That has no relevance whatsoever to how a legend spreads in their world. I ignored your point about Luke's projection since that's not relevant to what I said, but you just keep not reading carefully enough and seemingly just make up what you think I wrote. indeed.

I'd make sure I could get simple posts before I started talking about other people not understanding films.

 

[BatLobster]

Um...Luke stood there and took fire from all those AT-ATs, emerging unscathed. Kylo charged him with his lightsaber, still standing there unscathed. Luke then VANISHES, with Kylo screaming "NOOOO!". The resistance then escapes. It's the craziest display of Force ability ever witnessed in Star Wars, both by us the audience and in terms of other non-Force using characters witnessing Jedi acts. It's clear who came out on the victorious end here. It's clear why a story like this would give hope to the galaxy, and spread- perhaps with some embellishments, but that doesn't matter. The point is the spark of hope it spreads that will draw more to the cause.

 

[Mjölnir]

Um...Luke stood there and took fire from all those AT-ATs, emerging unscathed. Kylo charged him with his lightsaber, still standing there unscathed. Luke then VANISHES, with Kylo screaming "NOOOO!". The resistance then escapes. It's the craziest display of Force ability ever witnessed in Star Wars, both by us the audience and in terms of other non-Force using characters witnessing Jedi acts. It's clear who came out on the victorious end here. It's clear why a story like this would give hope to the galaxy, and spread- perhaps with some embellishments, but that doesn't matter. The point is the spark of hope it spreads that will draw more to the cause.

About as clear as Vader having to step on Obi-Wan's clothes because he doesn't understand what happened. Yet a person that actually knows a little about the Force saw it happen more up close than in TLJ and thought Obi-Wan died. According to previous facts I don't think there's any reason for any grunt in the First Order to know what happened, other than that Kylo challenged a legendary Jedi that apparently couldn't be killed by the walkers and he was the only one walking away.

The actual Force display that Luke does is not the craziest anyone has ever witnessed in Star Wars because no one saw exactly what he was doing. It pretty much looked the same as Obi-Wan becoming one with the Force (not that doing that isn't impressive). As for being the most impressive to viewers, I'm not so sure it matches actually affecting the living world from beyond death.

As for the end of Kylo vs Luke, none of the Resistance fighters even saw much of that anyway, and certainly not the end (so they can't know that Luke wasn't actually there), so even to them it must have seemed like Luke failed to walk out of that confrontation while Kylo did. The only way to confirm what happened is if he reaches out to Rey as a force ghost.

 

[Drizzle]

Well it's kind of a spoiler (projected Luke). I hope we will get one....

Oh, Hasbro's gone much more spoilery than projection Luke.

 

[Infinity9999x]

No one sees clearly what's happening, and no one has any knowledge to understand what's actually going on either. All they see is Luke surviving a bombardment, Kylo going down to deal with it himself, and the result is that Luke doesn't walk away while Kylo does. Luke is also most likely never seen again by a non-force sensitive person.

Why would Luke seem all powerful to anyone? Not even Luke thought that Obi-Wan beat Vader in ANH. Quite the contrary, he thought Vader straight up killed him. The legend makes little sense and is clearly part lie so the Resistance could clearly have come up with any fake story and it would have spread according to the film.

Obi-Wan’s body disappeared. Not only that, his cloak fell making it look at first like he himself falls to the ground.

Luke first faces down all the walkers, and appears unscathed after having a barrage of laser fire. Kylo attempts to fight him, and Luke avoids him with ease.

Kylo takes a running lunge and swings his saber through Luke, only for Luke to still be standing. Kylo takes a beat to watch this, puts his lightsaber through Luke again, and Luke still doesn’t disappear. It’s not until afte that at which point Luke fades away.

Even with no knowledge of the force, people would not take away that Luke was killed. Quite the opposite, they would take away that he’s apparently unkillable, as he survived three attacks that should have killed him. He made Kylo look like a fool, and all his men will take note of that.

Luke was theatrical on purpose during the entire exchange. He made sure that it was clear to others that he couldn’t be hurt. To the point that when he fades away, it’s clearly under his own power.


Remember, these soldiers don’t know anything about the force. They don’t know that Jedi sometimes vanish upon death. All they will have seen is that Luke Skywalker survived three attacks that should have killed a normal man, and then vanished.

There’s no way someone would have watched that exchange and gone “Kylo totes won.”

 

[Infinity9999x]

About as clear as Vader having to step on Obi-Wan's clothes because he doesn't understand what happened. Yet a person that actually knows a little about the Force saw it happen more up close than in TLJ and thought Obi-Wan died. According to previous facts I don't think there's any reason for any grunt in the First Order to know what happened, other than that Kylo challenged a legendary Jedi that apparently couldn't be killed by the walkers and he was the only one walking away.

The actual Force display that Luke does is not the craziest anyone has ever witnessed in Star Wars because no one saw exactly what he was doing. It pretty much looked the same as Obi-Wan becoming one with the Force (not that doing that isn't impressive). As for being the most impressive to viewers, I'm not so sure it matches actually affecting the living world from beyond death.

As for the end of Kylo vs Luke, none of the Resistance fighters even saw much of that anyway, and certainly not the end (so they can't know that Luke wasn't actually there), so even to them it must have seemed like Luke failed to walk out of that confrontation while Kylo did. The only way to confirm what happened is if he reaches out to Rey as a force ghost.

Obi-wan was struck by a lightsaber and his physical body disappeared while his clothes fell to the ground. To anyone who wasn’t close, it looked as if his body simply fell to the ground.

Luke survives three attacks, included two direct hits from a lightsaber, and doesn’t disappear until after Kylo has lowered his weapon. And then he straight up vanishes, in full view of all the soldiers.

None of Kylo’s soldiers would watch that and take that as a win by their new boss.

 

[Loden Greatstorm]

I absolutely love this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFfMN6lPnlA

 

[Mjölnir]

Obi-wan was struck by a lightsaber and his physical body disappeared while his clothes fell to the ground. To anyone who wasn’t close, it looked as if his body simply fell to the ground.

Luke survives three attacks, included two direct hits from a lightsaber, and doesn’t disappear until after Kylo has lowered his weapon. And then he straight up vanishes, in full view of all the soldiers.

None of Kylo’s soldiers would watch that and take that as a win by their new boss.

No it didn't look like a body falling at all. The clothes collapsed into a thin pile, there's no way a body would fit in there. Then you have Vader stepping on it with is foot, even more clearly showing how flat the pile was.

Both of them just straight up vanish, after having been hit by a lightsaber. Obi-Wan just as he's struck, and Luke a short bit later.

No one knows anything about force projection (not even the audience did before that scene) so if they thought Luke was there, which they did, then Luke either died or fled.

 

[Infinity9999x]

No it didn't look like a body falling at all. The clothes collapsed into a thin pile, there's no way a body would fit in there. Then you have Vader stepping on it with is foot, even more clearly showing how flat the pile was.

Both of them just straight up vanish, after having been hit by a lightsaber. Obi-Wan just as he's struck, and Luke a short bit later.

No one knows anything about force projection (not even the audience did before that scene) so if they thought Luke was there, which they did, then Luke either died or fled.

Luke survived three attacks, and vanished after Kylo lowered his saber and the two were clearly talking. After which, Kylo and his men learn that the Resistance escaped. So it would look to them like Luke is apparently unkillable and stalled Kylo long enough to dupe him.

Either that, or they assume he found a way to fool them all with updated tech, since they do have hologram communication technology.

But no, only someone being purposefully dense would assume that Luke did not have the upper hand in his encounter. Obi-Wan was struck and fell. Luke was struck repeatedly, and only vanished after he and Kylo clearly exchanged words.

 

[DerekLake]

Well, I think the key question is what anyone saw from that distance. The Resistance turned and left, so the only think they would have presumed was that Luke sacrificed himself to give them a chance to escape. That’s the key thing here. The First Order can think what they want (and frankly, who won or lost that encounter wouldn’t matter to most: Kylo Ren let the Resistance escape).

But if we want to play that game, the First Order would have seen what appeared to them to be an actual duel, then they would have seen Kylo seen go right through Luke, then they would have seen him slowly point his blade into Luke, and a few moments later Luke fades away and Kylo Ren turns and gets angry. So sure, they might have thought Kylo won, but they might also have recognized that in doing so, he let the Resistance escape. And considering Kylo Ren told Hux that the girl he was so focused on killed Snoke (and that Kylo Ren’s obsession with her a few days earlier led to the Resistance’s droid getting away from them), you can bet word has gotten around that Kylo Ren is quite easily distracted. This is only in addition to his reputation as one who throws rather violent temper tantrums, which isn’t the best reputation to have right before and after assuming power.

 

[Mjölnir]

Well, I think the key question is what anyone saw from that distance. The Resistance turned and left, so the only think they would have presumed was that Luke sacrificed himself to give them a chance to escape. That’s the key thing here. The First Order can think what they want (and frankly, who won or lost that encounter wouldn’t matter to most: Kylo Ren let the Resistance escape).

But if we want to play that game, the First Order would have seen what appeared to them to be an actual duel, then they would have seen Kylo seen go right through Luke, then they would have seen him slowly point his blade into Luke, and a few moments later Luke fades away and Kylo Ren turns and gets angry. So sure, they might have thought Kylo won, but they might also have recognized that in doing so, he let the Resistance escape. And considering Kylo Ren told Hux that the girl he was so focused on killed Snoke (and that Kylo Ren’s obsession with her a few days earlier led to the Resistance’s droid getting away from them), you can bet word has gotten around that Kylo Ren is quite easily distracted. This is only in addition to his reputation as one who throws rather violent temper tantrums, which isn’t the best reputation to have right before and after assuming power.

For brevity I'll just agree with this.

 

[sueb1863]

I fully expect IX to open with Hux actively planning a coup.