Mass Effect 3

[Carnage27]

Spoiler

Because that's the way the cookie crumbles. If you don't like the ending, for whatever reason - it makes you sad, you don't think it's worth the payoff, what have you - that's perfectly fine. That's an opinion. You can not like it all you want. Saying an ending is bad, or poorly fit, or whatever most people have been ranting about is a whole other thing entirely.

You did those things because they were a part of the story. They were a part of the lead up to the end. There's no rulebook somewhere - written or unwritten - that states an ending has to be positive. So why did you do those things? Because they needed to be, at the time, done, to manage an attack on the Reapers. You don't -have- to destroy the Geth. But synthetic life is synthetic life. The ending would be discredited if those were the stakes, but there was a happy cookie button over there that made sure nothing sad happened to the people you were invested in.

As for the rest of the blurb, no, you're not dead in every ending. Furthermore, you can't comment on how anything else goes, because there's no evidence.

Arguing the specifics of something is one thing - arguing based on conjecture in the absence of evidence and specifics is something else entirely.

Spoiler

"Something sad happening in the end" has nothing to do with it. I fully expected the vast majority of the people I met in my travels to die. But I also expected them to die for a reason. So that the galaxy would be a better place afterwards. I don't give a crap about Sheperad dying. But I want the death to make sense and be resonant.

And how do we know Shepard isn't dead in the end of the "Destroy" ending? Because there's a random, unidentified person who takes a breath? Now who's arguing based on conjecture?

 

[Master Chief]

Also, totally loving the back and forth arguing of theories as if they are facts or based on codex information... This is getting dangerously close to 'Could Superman outrun the Flash' territory.

Spoiler

Most of the indoctrination theory does fall in line with the codex entry.

 

[Balthus Dire]

Spoiler

Indoctrination does not work that way. Again I will repeat:

RAPID indoctrination takes several days.

Indoctrination that leaves the user with their faculties takes LONGER.

Shepard cannot be indoctrinated in 15 minutes.

Spoiler

Indoctrination works by influencing an individual over time. Even Saren took a really long time to become indoctrinated because of how Sovereign worked him. He gave Saren enough freedom to feel in control. Saren's indoctrination began in 2165. He didn't even fully realize he was indoctrinated until 2183 when Shepard convinced him he was wrong.

btw, what TIM was doing had nothing to do with biotics.

You're the one who doesn't understand indoctrination, and that's why I told you to read about it. Shepard giving up by not destroying the reapers will allow them access to his mind and take control of it because as long as there's a little fight in somebody, they can fight back. Shepard was clearly at the end of a very long road and this was Harbinger's best chance at claiming the prize. Vega hearing a humming noise, the whispers in his nightmares, the shadows... you're ignoring all of that because you don't like twist endings.

There it is.

 

[Master Chief]

40k

Holy s**t!! HAHAHAH

 

[Matt]

What's that old saying about arguing on the internet and the Special Olympics?

There is no point in arguing this theory. Even if you believe it, there is not enough evidence to definitively state it and really there isn't even enough evidence to definitively IMPLY it so why not just kick back, believe whatever you want to believe and see what happens?

 

[Master Chief]

What's that old saying about arguing on the internet and the Special Olympics?

There is no point in arguing this theory. Even if you believe it, there is not enough evidence to definitively state it and really there isn't even enough evidence to definitively IMPLY it so why not just kick back, believe whatever you want to believe and see what happens?

There is. Tons of it.

 

[Matt]

Holy s**t!! HAHAHAH

Keep in mind though, with over one million copies sold, 40,000 less than 4 % of the people who bought the game.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

And again if Shepard was undergoing slow long-term indoctrination the VI would have detected it. It can detect physical Reapers and Indoctrinated Agents, to say it can't detect Shepard without a single shred of evidence of this blind spot is why this theory falls apart.

There it is.

Spoiler

I thought you said Shepard was indoctrinated by Harbinger during the charge. Which is it?

 

[Master Chief]

Keep in mind though, with over one million copies sold, 40,000 less than 4 % of the people who bought the game.

That's still a substantial number. I have never seen an ending of anything get this much attention before.

btw that post was about the $40,000 raised for charity to get a better ending. lol when that FB group stops getting members, then break the numbers down for me.

 

[Matt]

There is. Tons of it.

Not really. I've read both sides. I actually like the indoctrination theory, it is intriguing. But whether I like it or not, I also accept that for it work we have to throw out everything we know about indoctrination, assume a **** load about the Reapers motivations [blackout](Shepard is unconscious, in rubble and staring down Harbinger's laser....killing makes a lot more sense. Especially since such rapid indoctrination means he will only live for a matter of days anyhow[/blackout] and if that isn't the case we must ignore the Prothean V.I.). There is evidence to imply it when you fit the evidence to the theory rather than building a theory with evidence.

 

[Matt]

That's still a substantial number. I have never seen an ending of anything get this much attention before.

btw that post was about the $40,000 raised for charity to get a better ending. lol when that FB group stops getting members, then break the numbers down for me.

Just saying, right now the numbers aren't huge. They can easily be written off as fringe fanboys.

As for the charity movement, regardless of the motivation or who is donating, that is amazing.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

I will also say like Matt, I would have liked the indoctrination theory to play out within the game. Its cool and original and I like it - but it didn't and its clear that wasn't BW's intention.

 

[Master Chief]

Not really. I've read both sides. I actually like the indoctrination theory, it is intriguing. But whether I like it or not, I also accept that for it work we have to throw out everything we know about indoctrination, assume a **** load about the Reapers motivations [blackout](Shepard is unconscious, in rubble and staring down Harbinger's laser....killing makes a lot more sense. Especially since such rapid indoctrination means he will only live for a matter of days anyhow[/blackout] and if that isn't the case we must ignore the Prothean V.I.. There is evidence to imply it when you fit the evidence to the theory rather than building a theory with evidence.

Spoiler

Throw out everything we know about indoctrination? LOL it doesn't change the rules of indoctrination, it follows them to the letter.

Again I ask you, was it ever answered why they wanted his corpse? He was dead so why did they want to recover him? Their motivations aren't made clear but in context with the game the ending feels very out of place; and not just because it feels shoddy and tacked on.

There is no evidence that the VI can detect that someone is in the process of getting indoctrinated. There is clear evidence that the VI can detect reaper influence.

 

[Wolvieboy17]

Uhh...are you trying to say that the codex entries aren't facts? So why are they in the game?

My point is you are arguing at what point Shepard was indoctrinated based on Codex entries, as though it proves an argument, when nothing so far, in anyway, proves at all that there is any truth to the indoctrination theory. Sure, it's POSSIBLE, as a theory... But it's also highly possible that this theory is nothing more than some fans in denial clinging onto the notion that there is more to the endings than what they experienced.

And I bet if or perhaps more likely 'when' this theory is disproved, people are going going to be outraged twice as hard, as though Bioware has somehow wronged them twice.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

Actually a Bioware Dev after the game came out did mention why the Collectors wanted Shepard's body. It had to do with Shepard coming into contact with the Cipher and the Prothean Beacon and Shepard's general skill and feeling that his genetic diversity would add to the Human Reaper.

 

[Carnage27]

Spoiler

Another thing that bothered me that just hit me. Tuchanka is a burnt out dust bowl that will take a long, long time to recover. Wrex even says it won't be able to sustain a large population growth, hence his desire for new Krogan colonies. Without the Relays, they won't be able to do that, and Tuchanka will end up tearing itself apart through a limited resource war.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

There is no evidence that the VI can detect that someone is in the process of getting indoctrinated. There is clear evidence that the VI can detect reaper influence.

Spoiler

Since you're the one claiming that it has this blind spot the impetus is on you to support it, otherwise the theory doesn't hold up under what we know and that is the VI can detect Reapers and indoctrination.

 

[Balthus Dire]

Spoiler

And again if Shepard was undergoing slow long-term indoctrination the VI would have detected it. It can detect physical Reapers and Indoctrinated Agents, to say it can't detect Shepard without a single shred of evidence of this blind spot is why this theory falls apart.

Spoiler

I thought you said Shepard was indoctrinated by Harbinger during the charge. Which is it?

Spoiler

Shepard became fully indoctrinated during the charge. For the rest of the game, he is under threat of indoctrination; maybe even feeling the "pull" if you will.

Like you said, the indoctrination process is slow, right? So, in his weakened state of mind, the slow process stretches throughout the game, but he is not fully and truly indoctrinated by the Reapers until the final push of the game, when Harbinger completes the process and Shep becomes full-Reaper.

Ergo, when Shepard meets the VI, he is not indoctrinated, but instead is under heavy threat of indoctrination. He's felt it. The Reapers are picking away at his brain. They aren't quite in there yet....but the threat is there. At the end, when he's his weakest, that's when they get him.

Again, I'm not even saying it's 100% true and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong....I'm just trying to explain why the theory DOES work.

 

[Master Chief]

Spoiler

My point is you are arguing at what point Shepard was indoctrinated based on Codex entries, as though it proves an argument, when nothing so far, in anyway, proves at all that there is any truth to the indoctrination theory. Sure, it's POSSIBLE, as a theory... But it's also highly possible that this theory is nothing more than some fans in denial clinging onto the notion that there is more to the endings than what they experienced.

And I bet if or perhaps more likely 'when' this theory is disproved, people are going going to be outraged twice as hard, as though Bioware has somehow wronged them twice.

Spoiler tags lol! As long as the ending we get makes sense I don't give a s**t if I'm wrong for seeing the theory has merit.

Spoiler

Actually a Bioware Dev after the game came out did mention why the Collectors wanted Shepard's body. It had to do with Shepard coming into contact with the Cipher and the Prothean Beacon and Shepard's general skill and feeling that his genetic diversity would add to the Human Reaper.

Link plz. :]

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

Spoiler

Another thing that bothered me that just hit me. Tuchanka is a burnt out dust bowl that will take a long, long time to recover. Wrex even says it won't be able to sustain a large population growth, hence his desire for new Krogan colonies. Without the Relays, they won't be able to do that, and Tuchanka will end up tearing itself apart through a limited resource war.

Spoiler

Though Mordin does say in ME2 in his opinion the Krogan would work their aggression normally if they had been left alone in the first place.

Still, you're right - the Krogan are going to have rough times ahead.

 

[Master Chief]

Spoiler

Since you're the one claiming that it has this blind spot the impetus is on you to support it, otherwise the theory doesn't hold up under what we know and that is the VI can detect Reapers and indoctrination.

We're running in circles at this point.

Spoiler

It's not a blind spot because there's nothing to detect. Shepard is free of their influence at that point in time.

 

[Upset Spideyfan]

So then the dreams and all of that mean nothing.

Link plz. :]

Spoiler

This was about a year and a half ago. I'm not saying it to make a point, you asked and I remember the post.

 

[Matt]

Spoiler

Throw out everything we know about indoctrination? LOL it doesn't change the rules of indoctrination, it follows them to the letter.

Again I ask you, was it ever answered why they wanted his corpse? He was dead so why did they want to recover him? Their motivations aren't made clear but in context with the game the ending feels very out of place; and not just because it feels shoddy and tacked on.

There is no evidence that the VI can detect that someone is in the process of getting indoctrination. There is clear evidence that the VI can detect reaper influence.

I'm not getting into this argument. The codex states the rules of indoctrination very clearly. It doesn't follow them. And even if it is rapid, that defeats the purpose and killing him is a hell of a lot more logical and leaves a hell of a lot less to chance. Indoctrination theory relies entirely on the Reapers being 1970s-esque Bond villains who would sooner put their adversary in an overly elaborate, escapable trap for no real reason than put a bullet in his brain.

But like I said, it could happen. Bioware has the groundwork for it. It will just require a hell of a lot of explaining. Though I refuse to believe this was their master plan all along and will instead tend to think it is a cop out due to the negative reaction. At this point the best thing to do is wait and see. Really no point in getting so aggro over it.

 

[Benstamania]

I'm leaning towards this, too.

in my case, I just won't buy the game........lol.

the "extra" DLC better be damn good if they are going to charge me for a full game and then again to "finish" the game for "real"........

I don't see how it would be any different from buying the Fallout 3 DLC that totally negates the original F3 ending and let's you continue on..

This happens all the time with games getting post ending DLC and people are acting like it's the first time it's ever happened.

ME3 ended... But it should continue on from that ending, like many RPG's before it, in DLC.

 

[Balthus Dire]

My point is you are arguing at what point Shepard was indoctrinated based on Codex entries, as though it proves an argument, when nothing so far, in anyway, proves at all that there is any truth to the indoctrination theory. Sure, it's POSSIBLE, as a theory... But it's also highly possible that this theory is nothing more than some fans in denial clinging onto the notion that there is more to the endings than what they experienced.

And I bet if or perhaps more likely 'when' this theory is disproved, people are going going to be outraged twice as hard, as though Bioware has somehow wronged them twice.

Again, I'm not (and I don't even think MC is to be honest) saying anything PROVES the theory. I'm saying that there is clear evidence to SUPPORT the theory.

I fully agree that it could go either way.