MCU X-Men - Part 1

[TheVileOne]

What is it with Kit Harington being brought up as Logan? I don't see it at all, and it's apparently a quite popular choice.

He's star of a popular fantasy series. That's about it. Sort of like 15 years ago, James Cameron and Peter Jackson were the go to choices for every dream comic book project.

 

[Iceman]

I would still love to see Peter Jackson try something.

 

[Marvel united]

I would still love to see Peter Jackson try something.

Inhumans would be perfect for him

 

[Iceman]

Inhumans would be perfect for him

I think he could do a good job with that. And anything to wash away the taste of that TV show and Marvel's one outright failure.

 

[Silvermoth]

A couple things about race-swapping:

1. It's interesting that it's only Caucasian characters being changed into African American characters, not any other ethnicity. What, are Asian people really that well represented, so they don't need you riding to their rescue?

That’s not true, over in the ff thread I suggested Constance wu for sue and Wesley Wong as Johnny. Oh and Rahul kohli as reed. And many people suggested naveen Andrews for strange before Benedict got the job. And I’ve seen Indian and East Asian people suggested for beast, iceman, etc

 

[Marvel united]

That’s not true, over in the ff thread I suggested Constance wu for sue and Wesley Wong as Johnny. Oh and Rahul kohli as reed. And many people suggested naveen Andrews for strange before Benedict got the job. And I’ve seen Indian and East Asian people suggested for beast, iceman, etc

The last thing Marvel needs with the Fantastic Four is to start another race controversy or any divisive controversal change (Black Johnny and Test dummy Blogger Doom were the biggest among MANY). After 3 failures with such a toxic IP, they're probably going to play F4 a lot safer than their other franchises. I doubt anybody gets race swapped on the team

 

[Detective Conan]

The last thing Marvel needs with the Fantastic Four is to start another race controversy or any divisive controversal change (Black Johnny and Test dummy Blogger Doom were the biggest among MANY). After 3 failures with such a toxic IP, they're probably going to play F4 a lot safer than their other franchises. I doubt anybody gets race swapped on the team

I can of sort of see where you’re coming from but remember Marvel’s track record has earned them a lot of leeway with their changes and frankly I don’t think the Four are on the same iconic status as Spider-Man enough that people will find it jarring that the Four have gone through some race-bending.

Besides Marvel is no stranger to controversial race changes as we all saw with the Michelle/MJ situation, and to a lesser extent Heimdall and Valkyrie from the Thor movies.
And frankly none of the controversy was really a mainstream audience thing but primarily comic fans online who really are a minority when it comes to who actually pay tickets to see these movies.

If they race-swapped Reed Richards no one but hardcore comics fans would bat an eye. The mainstream audience would mostly be indifferent.

 

[Lip]

I wish, I really wish those race issues were coming from comicbook fans only. Unfortunately it's not the case. Race changing some of the characters, especially for dark skinned people, will cause a backlash from part of the general audience too.

Take the Domino example for instance. She is a very important character in the mutant universe, but let's be honest, she's not Jean Grey or Rogue. She had barely been represented on other medias like animated series or video games. And she's only making her live-action debut this year. So she has been a character "stuck" in the comic books. But when Zazie Beets was announced as Neena, a bunch of "comicbook expert" emerged, angry, saying she shouldn't look like that. Most of them don't really read comics, but used the comics to justify why "she shouldn't look like that".

On the other hand, basically the entire cast of New Mutants was whitewashed. Especially Cecelia Reyes and Roberto da Costa. But where were those comicbook expert to complain about it? We only got silence as a response.

Someone said in this thread that Jean could be played by a latina or even an asian woman, but not by a dark skinned woman. I won't talk about that to not get into unnecessary discussion, but there is an obvious problem when it comes to representing dark skin.

I am all for representation and race changing. I need this to happen in the X-Men because they have a responsability and it's 2018. I'd love to see a different take on family in the Fantastic Four, like the 2015 movie tried to do, because it's also 2018. But there will be backlash. And that's actually one of the reasons why Marvel should do this.

 

[Laderlappen]

I wish, I really wish those race issues were coming from comicbook fans only. Unfortunately it's not the case. Race changing some of the characters, especially for dark skinned people, will cause a backlash from part of the general audience too.

Take the Domino example for instance. She is a very important character in the mutant universe, but let's be honest, she's not Jean Grey or Rogue. She had barely been represented on other medias like animated series or video games. And she's only making her live-action debut this year. So she has been a character "stuck" in the comic books. But when Zazie Beets was announced as Neena, a bunch of "comicbook expert" emerged, angry, saying she shouldn't look like that. Most of them don't really read comics, but used the comics to justify why "she shouldn't look like that".

On the other hand, basically the entire cast of New Mutants was whitewashed. Especially Cecelia Reyes and Roberto da Costa. But where were those comicbook expert to complain about it? We only got silence as a response.

Someone said in this thread that Jean could be played by a latina or even an asian woman, but not by a dark skinned woman. I won't talk about that to not get into unnecessary discussion, but there is an obvious problem when it comes to representing dark skin.

I am all for representation and race changing. I need this to happen in the X-Men because they have a responsability and it's 2018. I'd love to see a different take on family in the Fantastic Four, like the 2015 movie tried to do, because it's also 2018. But there will be backlash. And that's actually one of the reasons why Marvel should do this.

I don't think people criticized Domino because they got a black actress but because they changed the way she looked. I think that they could still make her look like she did in the comics even with a black actress. I don't think Tessa Thompson or Idris Elba recieved the same amount of criticism.

I think less people are complaining about New Mutants because people don't give a s about that movie.

 

[Lip]

I don't think people criticized Domino because they got a black actress but because they changed the way she looked.

Yeah, the backlash didn't start when they announced Zazie, but when they released the official photo. Some people were really expecting they'd cast a black actress only to paint her skin white.

And that's another thing. I don't want Marvel race-changing characters only to hide their skin under makeup (Beast, Raven, Kurt, etc).

 

[Iceman]

Yeah, the backlash didn't start when they announced Zazie, but when they released the official photo. Some people were really expecting they'd cast a black actress only to paint her skin white.

And that's another thing. I don't want Marvel race-changing characters only to hide their skin under makeup (Beast, Raven, Kurt, etc).

But if they do cast someone dark skinned as those characters would you not want them to have blue skin? They aren't going to have their normal skin textures playing Beast and Nightcrawler anyway.

 

[Lip]

But if they do cast someone dark skinned as those characters would you not want them to have blue skin? They aren't going to have their normal skin textures playing Beast and Nightcrawler anyway.

That's not what I meant.

I mean, if you are going to cast black actors to add more diversity, please don't cast them in roles that will hide their skin.

 

[Fincher]

That's not what I meant.

I mean, if you are going to cast black actors to add more diversity, please don't cast them in roles that will hide their skin.

That is something I've questioned before, whether it accomplishes much in terms of diversity to cast black actors as blue/green/whatever characters. It would make more sense to get an asian actor in that case if diversity is the goal.

I don't think it had much if any effect in Gamora's case, maybe not in Starfire's (if Starfire ends up being orange), but if they keep doing it I'm sure it'll become a real talking point. "Oh, sure, you can have black superheroes, as long as they're not black."

 

[Iceman]

That's not what I meant.

I mean, if you are going to cast black actors to add more diversity, please don't cast them in roles that will hide their skin.

Oh right. Of course black actors aren't only cast to add diversity though. A lot of them are very good actors too and if they choose to go for roles like Gamora and Beast etc, then good luck to them. When the casting process starts for these roles the creators might not have a particular actor or race in mind, but the actor cast ends up being a minority on merit. No issue there right? Do you think the MCU for eg is going to purposefully choose to include a black actor for the sake of diversity and then to hide their skin due to them being black when they already have Black Panther and everyone in his world, Nick Fury, Falcon, War Machine, Heimdall and Valkyrie on show in full view?

 

[Marvel united]

I can of sort of see where you’re coming from but remember Marvel’s track record has earned them a lot of leeway with their changes and frankly I don’t think the Four are on the same iconic status as Spider-Man enough that people will find it jarring that the Four have gone through some race-bending.

Besides Marvel is no stranger to controversial race changes as we all saw with the Michelle/MJ situation, and to a lesser extent Heimdall and Valkyrie from the Thor movies.
And frankly none of the controversy was really a mainstream audience thing but primarily comic fans online who really are a minority when it comes to who actually pay tickets to see these movies.

If they race-swapped Reed Richards no one but hardcore comics fans would bat an eye. The mainstream audience would mostly be indifferent.

This is an apples and oranges situation. Changing minor supporting characters like Heimdall, Valkyrie and MJ to a lesser extent (because she's not even Mary Jane Watson) is not comparable to changing a major player like Reed Richards. It would become yet another race-baiting controversy like with Trank's film. Mr. Fantastic is 5x more iconic than Heimdall Valkyrie from Thor or other supporting characters that Marvel has chosen to race swap. On the other hand, they have yet to race swap a main hero. The uproar over Heimdall and MJ especially was pretty huge. It would be MUCH worse with a more recognizable character like Mr. Fantastic

Fantastic Four is a lethal IP right now that is only worth anything in Disney's hands. Marvel will certainly want to walk a much more straightforward line with that film. Another reason I dont see radical deviations from the source material happening like Trank.

 

[Lip]

Oh right. Of course black actors aren't only cast to add diversity though. A lot of them are very good actors too and if they choose to go for roles like Gamora and Beast etc, then good luck to them. When the casting process starts for these roles the creators might not have a particular actor or race in mind, but the actor cast ends up being a minority on merit. No issue there right? Do you think the MCU for eg is going to purposefully choose to include a black actor for the sake of diversity and then to hide their skin due to them being black when they already have Black Panther and everyone in his world, Nick Fury, Falcon, War Machine, Heimdall and Valkyrie on show in full view?

I'll try answer carefully because I'm affraid of another misinterpretation. Yes, black actors are not only cast to add diversity, that's not what I said. Several actresses of different ethnicity auditioned for the role of Domino including Mary Elizabeth Winstead, Sienna Miller, Mackenzie Davies, Ruby Rose, Kerry Washington and Lizzy Caplan. And Zazie was the one who stood out and got the role.

Now, when it comes to the X-Men franchise, given what it is about, I think there is a responsibility there to represent more diversity. And yes, I think it needs to be a conscious choice. I loved the cast of Homecoming and I do think that was a conscious choice. To reflect the world as it is now.

And I'm confused about what you mean about your last question. I mean, yeah, they have War Machine, Black Panther, Falcon, Shuri and others. But more diversity in the MCU are welcomed too. And more diversity in the mutant universe is necessary. And I hope they won't be hiding the skin of people of color. That's all.

 

[Iceman]

I'll try answer carefully because I'm affraid of another misinterpretation. Yes, black actors are not only cast to add diversity, that's not what I said. Several actresses of different ethnicity auditioned for the role of Domino including Mary Elizabeth Winstead, Sienna Miller, Mackenzie Davies, Ruby Rose, Kerry Washington and Lizzy Caplan. And Zazie was the one who stood out and got the role.

Now, when it comes to the X-Men franchise, given what it is about, I think there is a responsibility there to represent more diversity. And yes, I think it needs to be a conscious choice. I loved the cast of Homecoming and I do think that was a conscious choice. To reflect the world as it is now.

And I'm confused about what you mean about your last question. I mean, yeah, they have War Machine, Black Panther, Falcon, Shuri and others. But more diversity in the MCU are welcomed too. And more diversity in the mutant universe is necessary. And I hope they won't be hiding the skin of people of color. That's all.

Sorry, please don't mistake my questions for being accusing. I didn't have any issue with your posts. I'm just discussing it with you so I can understand what you're meaning so it's helpful when you respond and clarify it for me like your last couple of posts

I didn't know about the Deadpool (Domino) auditions, cool.

I didn't love all of the cast of Homecoming. I was a fan of Ned but not Flash or Michelle. Liz was ok. The choice to reflect a NY school more accurately was good but I think they could have done better with those 2 roles.

With the X-Men I think they should first take advantage of the diversity they do have by starting off by introducing Storm in a major way so that she becomes a massive MCU character outside of just X-films. And then include Asian Psylocke and Jubilee (the POV character) as important characters. If there is going to be any time travel mucking about to get X-Men into the MCU (not really sure what the plan is there) then Bishop can be used too. Also make the likes of Colossus Russian rather than having any white characters speaking in an American accent regardless of where they are supposed to be from, especially if they have a strong accent in the comics. Also there is every reason for the X-Men to have a very strong female contingent and feature many of the best female characters in CBMs going forward unlike what we've had to date. After that it's about being careful with what steps to take but of course mutants would hail from all over the globe and that should be reflected in the team.

On the last point I was saying (and not saying you were saying this btw) that for eg casting Gamora as a black actress and putting green skin on her is the right thing to do in that situation and shouldn't be seen by anyone as "covering up". The MCU has a lot of black actors on show so it doesn't even make sense to think that and Zoe is a great actress for the role. My view is that it's the intention that's relevant ie are you hiding the colour (which is terrible) or just using the exotic colour of the comic character having held an open casting and found the best person for the role who happens to be non-white. I don't even see the point of doing something like that to add diversity as the GA is not even going to know unless the underlying actor is famous.

 

[Marvel united]

I'll try answer carefully because I'm affraid of another misinterpretation. Yes, black actors are not only cast to add diversity, that's not what I said. Several actresses of different ethnicity auditioned for the role of Domino including Mary Elizabeth Winstead, Sienna Miller, Mackenzie Davies, Ruby Rose, Kerry Washington and Lizzy Caplan. And Zazie was the one who stood out and got the role.

Now, when it comes to the X-Men franchise, given what it is about, I think there is a responsibility there to represent more diversity. And yes, I think it needs to be a conscious choice. I loved the cast of Homecoming and I do think that was a conscious choice. To reflect the world as it is now.

And I'm confused about what you mean about your last question. I mean, yeah, they have War Machine, Black Panther, Falcon, Shuri and others. But more diversity in the MCU are welcomed too. And more diversity in the mutant universe is necessary. And I hope they won't be hiding the skin of people of color. That's all.

So in your scenario, who stays white like the original source material? If we're using the Homecoming example then rhe main characters do. I'm a big supporter of having a more diverse cast but my problem with the argument being presented here is that EVERYBODY should get a race swap no matter how important or iconic they are. Everyone from Charles, Jean, Scott and Logan the latter of whom would be much harder to change (considering he comes from 1800s old money Canada!) but even then, I've seen some suggest that he could be a Chinese immigrant so the race change makes sense... Essentially sacrificing Logan's backstory so he can be east Asian which is ridiculous to me.

 

[Lip]

Sorry, please don't mistake my questions for being accusing. I didn't have any issue with your posts. I'm just discussing it with you so I can understand what you're meaning so it's helpful when you respond and clarify it for me like your last couple of posts

That's fine

I didn't love all of the cast of Homecoming. I was a fan of Ned but not Flash or Michelle. Liz was ok. The choice to reflect a NY school more accurately was good but I think they could have done better with those 2 roles.

My biggest complaint about that was Michelle. But because I wanted them to have the balls to go all the way and make her Mary Jane.

With the X-Men I think they should first take advantage of the diversity they do have by starting off by introducing Storm in a major way so that she becomes a massive MCU character outside of just X-films. And then include Asian Psylocke and Jubilee (the POV character) as important characters. If there is going to be any time travel mucking about to get X-Men into the MCU (not really sure what the plan is there) then Bishop can be used too. Also make the likes of Colossus Russian rather than having any white characters speaking in an American accent regardless of where they are supposed to be from, especially if they have a strong accent in the comics. Also there is every reason for the X-Men to have a very strong female contingent and feature many of the best female characters in CBMs going forward unlike what we've had to date. After that it's about being careful with what steps to take but of course mutants would hail from all over the globe and that should be reflected in the team.

Yeah, the X-Men has some characters like Storm, Betsy, Bishop and Jubilee to add diversity. And I want them to have substantial roles. But as Mad Ones posted before, when you look at the mutant universe, there isn't that much diversity when almost all of them are white.

Making that universe more diverse is necessary IMO.

On the last point I was saying (and not saying you were saying this btw) that for eg casting Gamora as a black actress and putting green skin on her is the right thing to do in that situation and shouldn't be seen by anyone as "covering up". The MCU has a lot of black actors on show so it doesn't even make sense to think that and Zoe is a great actress for the role. My view is that it's the intention that's relevant ie are you hiding the colour (which is terrible) or just using the exotic colour of the comic character having held an open casting and found the best person for the role who happens to be non-white. I don't even see the point of doing something like that to add diversity as the GA is not even going to know unless the underlying actor is famous.

Ok, here's my opinion. I don't want them to change characters that have different colors (Gamora, Raven, Beast, etc). But I hope that the POC cast don't end up with those roles. The Domino case is different for two especific reasons and for me they went with the best choice.

I'm a big supporter of having a more diverse cast but my problem with the argument being presented here is that EVERYBODY should get a race swap no matter how important or iconic they are.

But literally no one is saying that everybody should be race changed.

 

[Marvel united]

That's fine



My biggest complaint about that was Michelle. But because I wanted them to have the balls to go all the way and make her Mary Jane.



Yeah, the X-Men has some characters like Storm, Betsy, Bishop and Jubilee to add diversity. And I want them to have substantial roles. But as Mad Ones posted before, when you look at the mutant universe, there isn't that much diversity when almost all of them are white.

Making that universe more diverse is necessary IMO.



Ok, here's my opinion. I don't want them to change characters that have different colors (Gamora, Raven, Beast, etc). But I hope that the POC cast don't end up with those roles. The Domino case is different for two especific reasons and for me they went with the best choice.




But literally no one is saying that everybody should be race changed.

Yes, some are. Protar and Shikamaru were the ones arguing for the core 5 to be changed and I've seen others (Dr. Cosmic In the past). And then there's the idea that the people of color in the supporting cast won't matter because the main 5 are their original race which is ridiculous.

And Domino's look is so derivative and boring compared to the comics. Who cares that the actress is black? Anybody can play part, but Dominoe's chalk white/grey skin is an iconic part of the character. There's a reason why so many fans were pissed at that choice. Zazie being black shouldn't be sacrifice to the fidelity of the source material. I mean Marvel didn't have Zoe keep her natural skin tone when playing Gamora because the character is green in the comics. If the "black woman painted white" becomes an issue, then why not make the skin tone a pale blue color like some artistic interpretations of Domino? What they went with is just... boring. Makes her look like an generic assassin

 

[Shikamaru]

I didn't say all the O5 should be changed; just that there's no way they would have all been white had it not been for the times.

The X-Men aren't just a racial metaphor, they're an all around persecution metaphor. That means you need people representing those persecuted for their orientation, disabilities, etc. And among those some will be white.

 

[Gamma Goliath]

I could see a Latin jean grey. Iceman could be anything really.

 

[CaptainWagner]

The last thing Marvel needs with the Fantastic Four is to start another race controversy or any divisive controversal change (Black Johnny and Test dummy Blogger Doom were the biggest among MANY). After 3 failures with such a toxic IP, they're probably going to play F4 a lot safer than their other franchises. I doubt anybody gets race swapped on the team

The last thing Marvel needs is to worry about an internet freak out. The people who threw a fit about MBJ were a tiny minority in the grand scheme of things. They just get elevated on the Internet to be more extreme than they actually are. Fant4stic didn't fail because Johnny Storm was black, it failed because it was garbage and had garbage marketing.

 

[Marvel united]

The last thing Marvel needs is to worry about an internet freak out. The people who threw a fit about MBJ were a tiny minority in the grand scheme of things. They just get elevated on the Internet to be more extreme than they actually are. Fant4stic didn't fail because Johnny Storm was black, it failed because it was garbage and had garbage marketing.

Of course it didn't fail soley because Johnny was black. But that aura of controversy and drama among other things contributed to the constant negative press surrounding the movie from the getgo. And you again, you're trying to downplay the significance of the massive fan outcry over these sorts of things as if it doesn't matter when it very much does. Johnny being black WAS a pretty big deal when it was announced, so much so that several cast members and the director himself had to defend the casting choice and Michael himself had to address the controversy. Remember the infamous "They're going to see it anyway"? There ya go. There were several interviews where they tried to ask Mara and Jordan about the fiasco etc. It wayy bigger than the Michelle and Heimdall controversies. Do you really think Marvel wants to go down that road again when they're already treading on shaky ground just trying to reintroduce the characters to the GA?

And regarding the Johnny casting - Me, myself? I wasn't the biggest fan of the casting when it was announced but the blatant racism and hate being constantly thrown at MBJ was disgusting. And in the end, he was the only good thing about that movie and the only one who looked like he gave somewhat of a **** in his performance unlike everyone else.

 

[Iceman]

That's fine



My biggest complaint about that was Michelle. But because I wanted them to have the balls to go all the way and make her Mary Jane.



Yeah, the X-Men has some characters like Storm, Betsy, Bishop and Jubilee to add diversity. And I want them to have substantial roles. But as Mad Ones posted before, when you look at the mutant universe, there isn't that much diversity when almost all of them are white.

Making that universe more diverse is necessary IMO.



Ok, here's my opinion. I don't want them to change characters that have different colors (Gamora, Raven, Beast, etc). But I hope that the POC cast don't end up with those roles. The Domino case is different for two especific reasons and for me they went with the best choice.

I would have much preferred Michelle was made MJ in that film. The whole thing they did with that just seemed dumb to me. Hopefully it is well paid off in the sequel at least. The team won't be large at first so Storm, Psylocke and Jubilee likely wouldn't be far off half the members so it would be a good start at least.

I think the guys with green/blue skin should be looked at differently. Regardless of who is cast in the other roles it's still an additional bonus if you can squeeze in a Gamora in there and it shouldn't detract from any attempt to make the traditional cast more diverse.