MCU X-Men - Part 1

[Silvermoth]

The last thing Marvel needs with the Fantastic Four is to start another race controversy or any divisive controversal change (Black Johnny and Test dummy Blogger Doom were the biggest among MANY). After 3 failures with such a toxic IP, they're probably going to play F4 a lot safer than their other franchises. I doubt anybody gets race swapped on the team

There were a lot of problems with that movie but we’re not going to blame the black guy for it because that would make us all look very stupid

 

[Marvel united]

There were a lot of problems with that movie but we’re not going to blame the black guy for it because that would make us all look very stupid

You're right which is why I'm not blaming Jordan's casting. (He was the only good thing about that movie) but part of the social uproar around a black Johnny and other creative decisions that sent fans casual and hardcore alike led down the path of what happened when the movie premiered.

See my last post on the previous page

 

[Marvel united]

The first Fantastic Four franchise was already a 'safe' interpretation of Fantastic Four. I expect Marvel will change things up quite a bit to differentiate from the previous iterations. We already have precedence in Spider-man.

You can't compare it to Spider-Man because unlike that franchise, the F4 have NEVER been done right in the first place. The Story films were terrible and were only faithful in the general sense. And we already got a radical reinvention of the source material:

I have a hard time seeing how or why Marvel would want to deviate even further from Trank's Fantastic Four In Name Only

 

[CaptainWagner]

Of course it didn't fail soley because Johnny was black. But that aura of controversy and drama among other things contributed to the constant negative press surrounding the movie from the getgo. And you again, you're trying to downplay the significance of the massive fan outcry over these sorts of things as if it doesn't matter when it very much does. Johnny being black WAS a pretty big deal when it was announced, so much so that several cast members and the director himself had to defend the casting choice and Michael himself had to address the controversy. Remember the infamous "They're going to see it anyway"? There ya go. There were several interviews where they tried to ask Mara and Jordan about the fiasco etc. It wayy bigger than the Michelle and Heimdall controversies. Do you really think Marvel wants to go down that road again when they're already treading on shaky ground just trying to reintroduce the characters to the GA?

And regarding the Johnny casting - Me, myself? I wasn't the biggest fan of the casting when it was announced but the blatant racism and hate being constantly thrown at MBJ was disgusting. And in the end, he was the only good thing about that movie and the only one who looked like he gave somewhat of a **** in his performance unlike everyone else.

But doesn't that prove the opposing point. Most people came away from the movie saying MBJ was the best part. All the online rants and raves amounted to nothing. The movie lived and died (And die it did) on its own creative merits. If anything, that should increase Marvel's confidence to be loose with race.

Fiege and co. have NEVER been devout towards the source material. Nearly every one of the MCU heroes has seen drastic alterations to their origin. The purist fans have thrown fits about everything from making Hank Pym old to insisting Homecoming would fail because of the deviations from the source. In fact, there are still people who insist Holland's Spider-man is a disaster. Didn't stop him from scoring the highest Spider-man box office ever. The only reason the MBJ issue got the attention it did was because it dragged the ugly corners of the fandom into the spotlight.

At the end of the day, Marvel has proven they intend to cast the best people for parts regardless of race. So I see no reason why they would be opposed to race-swapping characters in a franchise known and loved for its diversity. Denzel Washington remains in my eyes the best choice for Charles Xavier, regardless of any diversity efforts.

 

[Lip]

You're right which is why I'm not blaming Jordan's casting. (He was the only good thing about that movie) but part of the social uproar around a black Johnny and other creative decisions that sent fans casual and hardcore alike led down the path of what happened when the movie premiered.

See my last post on the previous page

I'm sorry but you are throwing the casting of MBJ into the mix. If he was the best thing about the movie, he (and most importantly his dark skin) has nothing to do with the mess that movie was. So you have to separate the two very different issues: the bad creative decisions that ruined the movie and the racism behind the reaction towards his casting. Two different things.

At the end of the day, Marvel has proven they intend to cast the best people for parts regardless of race. So I see no reason why they would be opposed to race-swapping characters in a franchise known and loved for its diversity. Denzel Washington remains in my eyes the best choice for Charles Xavier, regardless of any diversity efforts.

Although I don't have Denzel Washington in my mind, Charles is definitely a character I can see easily having his race changed. And I'm curious to see a new Eric too.

But race is really not my main concern. I'm sure Marvel will make the X-Men very diverse, if Homecoming is any indication. My main concern is with LGBT. That is something I fear Marvel will take many, many, many years to go through. Apparently they tried something in Black Panther, but decided to cut. Hopefully the backlash of the community can wake them up.

I really want at least Raven and Bobby to be portrayed as LGBT. I'm sure Northstar won't be making a live-action debut so soon.

 

[Shikamaru]

But race is really not my main concern. I'm sure Marvel will make the X-Men very diverse, if Homecoming is any indication. My main concern is with LGBT. That is something I fear Marvel will take many, many, many years to go through. Apparently they tried something in Black Panther, but decided to cut. Hopefully the backlash of the community can wake them up.

I really want at least Raven and Bobby to be portrayed as LGBT. I'm sure Northstar won't be making a live-action debut so soon.

This. Apparently a lot of countries have censorship policies in regards to movies with LGBT characters. Meaning if Disney thinks a gay Bobby will hurt their box office too much, they might not allow it.

Sucks if it comes down to that. I can't imagine doing X-Men without any LGBT characters. Though they could always 'wink wink nudge nudge' the audience if there's no other option.

 

[Jordacar]

But race is really not my main concern. I'm sure Marvel will make the X-Men very diverse, if Homecoming is any indication. My main concern is with LGBT. That is something I fear Marvel will take many, many, many years to go through. Apparently they tried something in Black Panther, but decided to cut. Hopefully the backlash of the community can wake them up.

I really want at least Raven and Bobby to be portrayed as LGBT. I'm sure Northstar won't be making a live-action debut so soon.

Exactly, after 10 years and 19 films, they've racked up...

(lemme do some quick math here)

...zero canon LGBT characters.

 

[Marvel united]

If Iceman is race swapped and they adapt his coming out story, I think it would be really interesting to see them explore the themes of him him being a triple minority. Mystique being LGTBQ s another change I could see working really well. (Isn't she Bi in the comics anyway?)

 

[Punisher_MAX]

I'd be all for Hugh Jackman playing Professor X in a pretty funny twist. Have him use his natural accent as well.

 

[Mangle77]

Believe it or not, I'm okay with casting African American, Latino, Asian, or whatever actors in roles that are usually Caucasian; as long as they're the best actor for the role. Remember Michael Clark Duncan as Kingpin? I thought that was great casting. It's when an actor is cast solely for diversity's sake that I have a problem.

While I respect the hell out of Idris Elba, I wish he hadn't been cast as Heimdall. Blade would have been a GREAT role for him, especially since Blade has a British accent.

If we're going to be respectful of EVERYONE'S beliefs, I feel I should point out that the Norse gods are still worshipped in some places, and the Eddas (the sacred texts of the Asatru religion) specifically call Heimdall the "whitest" of all the Aesir. Just saying.

 

[Lip]

This. Apparently a lot of countries have censorship policies in regards to movies with LGBT characters. Meaning if Disney thinks a gay Bobby will hurt their box office too much, they might not allow it.

Sucks if it comes down to that. I can't imagine doing X-Men without any LGBT characters. Though they could always 'wink wink nudge nudge' the audience if there's no other option.

Exactly, after 10 years and 19 films, they've racked up...

(lemme do some quick math here)

...zero canon LGBT characters.

Yep.

Bob Iger said something about keeping Deadpool rated-r under the FOX brand, which for me makes sense. So maybe there will be other X-franchises that could be rated-r too. Maybe in some of them we can have openly gay characters.

But for the main X-Films... that's gonna be hard.

 

[CaptainWagner]

Unless China is one of those countries, would it really matter, though? Disney isn't exactly hurting for box office dollars from say, Saudi Arabia.

 

[DACrowe]

Just to throw in people talking about how Marvel will change things up.

I expect some MAJOR changes if/when they get the rights back to X-Men. More radical than most fans are going to be prepared for, because while a number of mutants haven't been done great by Fox/Singer, the bones of the piece (tolerance, peaceful dissent vs. radicalism, a school and oasis for alienated and isolated teens) has actually been done very well... and to death.

While they can focus on getting Storm better as a leader and letting the team have more soapy dynamics and whacky adventures... the core principles could see some radical changes. For instance, I kind of like the idea of something like Jeffrey Wright as Charles Xavier and Denzel Washington as Magneto.

You need to completely reframe the piece. If you don't think they will look at every character in SM:HC who isn't Peter Parker.

... the Fantastic Four? Just doing it right will be different enough. That requires less reinvention and more efficiency.

 

[Marvel united]

Just to throw in people talking about how Marvel will change things up.

I expect some MAJOR changes if/when they get the rights back to X-Men. More radical than most fans are going to be prepared for, because while a number of mutants haven't been done great by Fox/Singer, the bones of the piece (tolerance, peaceful dissent vs. radicalism, a school and oasis for alienated and isolated teens) has actually been done very well... and to death.

While they can focus on getting Storm better as a leader and letting the team have more soapy dynamics and whacky adventures... the core principles could see some radical changes. For instance, I kind of like the idea of something like Jeffrey Wright as Charles Xavier and Denzel Washington as Magneto.

You need to completely reframe the piece. If you don't think they will look at every character in SM:HC who isn't Peter Parker.

... the Fantastic Four? Just doing it right will be different enough. That requires less reinvention and more efficiency.

You could easily say the same thing about the X-Men you said about the Fantastic Four. Doing a more comic accurate take would be different enough, no need for some radical reinvention. The difference between Spider-Man and X-Men is that the latter never embraced the source material, never did any character justice outside of Wolverine, Charles and Erik. The former had a great trilogy that was practically the embodiment of the Silver Age comics. X-Men never had that luxury so theres zero need to completely reinvent the property in a similar way as Homecoming

 

[Marvel united]

That being said, Jeffrey Wright as Charles is an inspired casting choice I will admit

 

[Lip]

You could easily say the same thing about the X-Men you said about the Fantastic Four. Doing a more comic accurate take would be different enough, no need for some radical reinvention. The difference between Spider-Man and X-Men is that the latter never embraced the source material, never did any character justice outside of Wolverine, Charles and Erik. The former had a great trilogy that was practically the embodiment of the Silver Age comics. X-Men never had that luxury so theres zero need to completely reinvent the property in a similar way as Homecoming

Depends on what you define as "reinvention".

The topic we're discussing is diversity and representation, and yes, in that sense those properties need reinvention. We can't pretend we're in the 60's.

Those properties were created more than 50 years ago and were reinvented over the years. I'm not a FF expert but I read about representation on comics. The portrayal of Sue Storm, among many female characters, changed a lot over the years and followed the social changes of the time. She grew from a weak character with social roles attached to her to a powerful hero and a leader. There are many other examples to pick.

If there were multiple reinventions in the comics over the decades, why we're going to pretend we are not living in 2018 and we're not facing serious social issues?

The diversity in Homecoming is a reflection of what NY is now. It'd be ridiculous and cringeworthy to see Peter interacting with only white people in highschool. The X-Men and FF can very well translate the world we live now by having a more modern take. And that doesn't mean ruining the essence of the stories.

 

[Marvel united]

Depends on what you define as "reinvention".

The topic we're discussing is diversity and representation, and yes, in that sense those properties need reinvention. We can't pretend we're in the 60's.

Correct, which Is why I'm onboard with a more multi-cultural School for the Gifted Youngsters. It does make more sense.

Those properties were created more than 50 years ago and were reinvented over the years. I'm not a FF expert but I read about representation on comics. The portrayal of Sue Storm, among many female characters, changed a lot over the years and followed the social changes of the time. She grew from a weak character with social roles attached to her to a powerful hero and a leader. There are many other examples to pick.

Right, but Sue always kept her core of being a motherly, warm figure with a layer of badassery. And MCU Sue almost certainly won't be as subservant and cliche as 60s Sue which was very much a product of it's time, unfortunately.

If there were multiple reinventions in the comics over the decades, why we're going to pretend we are not living in 2018 and we're not facing serious social issues?

Who's pretending it isn't, though? I'm sure we're all very aware of the issues that are going on right now. I agree with you, X-Men in particular is a great place to update a lot of the themes from those original storie.

The diversity in Homecoming is a reflection of what NY is now. It'd be ridiculous and cringeworthy to see Peter interacting with only white people in highschool. The X-Men and FF can very well translate the world we live now by having a more modern take. And that doesn't mean ruining the essence of the stories.

And this is where we disagree, having a more modern take on these characters doesn't have to entail race changing all of the MAIN characters who have become ingrained into pop culture. Homecoming had a very diverse cast which made complete sense considering the racial diversity of New York City and Queens in particular. But Peter Parker himself was still a white guy, because thats the way he's been portrayed for over 50 years. The Fantastic Four imo, should all stay their original race. The X-Men are a much more complicated issue BECAUSE of themes of the franchise. But certain characters are just too iconic to change i.e Wolverine, Cyclops and Jean. I just don't see Marvel changing the CORE members because there is no precedent for them changing the main characters. Surround those 4 with a diverse cast. Characters like Bobby, Hank, Mystique, Gambit even Rouge to an extent can be changed but the CORE 4 should remain caucasion

 

[Mad Ones]

I don't get how some people don't see the problem in arguing that the core of the X-men needs to be white. That literally privileges whiteness over all other races. If diverse characters don't make up the core, then all we get is tokenism.

 

[Kuwolski]

I don't get how some people don't see the problem in arguing that the core of the X-men needs to be white. That literally privileges whiteness over all other races. If diverse characters don't make up the core, then all we get is tokenism.

Some people find iconic/legacy characters sacred, like myself. Why would you be surprised that it means something if the characters are changed? I want diversity but I'd rather change and build up less iconic characters as equals, or even change one iconic character. To carelessly throw history aside to satisfy groups is also tokenism. Find a balance of compromise like adults.

 

[Lip]

Correct, which Is why I'm onboard with a more multi-cultural School for the Gifted Youngsters. It does make more sense.

Right, but Sue always kept her core of being a motherly, warm figure with a layer of badassery. And MCU Sue almost certainly won't be as subservant and cliche as 60s Sue which was very much a product of it's time, unfortunately.


Who's pretending it isn't, though? I'm sure we're all very aware of the issues that are going on right now. I agree with you, X-Men in particular is a great place to update a lot of the themes from those original storie.

And this is where we disagree, having a more modern take on these characters doesn't have to entail race changing all of the MAIN characters who have become ingrained into pop culture. Homecoming had a very diverse cast which made complete sense considering the racial diversity of New York City and Queens in particular. But Peter Parker himself was still a white guy, because thats the way he's been portrayed for over 50 years. The Fantastic Four imo, should all stay their original race. The X-Men are a much more complicated issue BECAUSE of themes of the franchise. But certain characters are just too iconic to change i.e Wolverine, Cyclops and Jean. I just don't see Marvel changing the CORE members because there is no precedent for them changing the main characters. Surround those 4 with a diverse cast. Characters like Bobby, Hank, Mystique, Gambit even Rouge to an extent can be changed but the CORE 4 should remain caucasion

Spiderman is a solo hero. It's very different when you're talking about a team. Especially when this team is supposed to sell diversity.

I don't really want a diverse cast of extras for the X-Men movies. I want diversity taking important and substantial roles.

As for FF, they don't have a responsibility when it comes to diversity. The essence of the team is family, so it will be very nice to see a modern take in that, instead of representing a family straight from the 60s.

 

[Shikamaru]

Peter Parker didn't have to be white. It's not a problem he is, but there's nothing specifically 'white' about a kid from Queens. Not in 2018 anyways. Same goes for Scott and Jean, though my feeling is they'll probably be cast as white.

Wolverine is arguably the only one that 'has' to be white on that list, since he comes from a specific Anglophone era like Steve Rogers. Other than that, no one else of the names mentioned has to be white.

 

[zachthegeek]

Peter Parker didn't have to be white. It's not a problem he is, but there's nothing specifically 'white' about a kid from Queens. Not in 2018 anyways. Same goes for Scott and Jean, though my feeling is they'll probably be cast as white.

Wolverine is arguably the only one that 'has' to be white on that list, since he comes from a specific Anglophone era like Steve Rogers. Other than that, no one else of the names mentioned has to be white.

I’d argue Warren should be white as well. He was the definition of privileged. A big part of his back story is that everything in his life was laid out for him, until his mutation changed everything. His character and back story make most sense if he’s white, because people of color don’t have that highest level of privilege that a straight white rich boy has.

 

[Marvel united]

I don't get how some people don't see the problem in arguing that the core of the X-men needs to be white. That literally privileges whiteness over all other races. If diverse characters don't make up the core, then all we get is tokenism.

The diversity in Homecoming wasn't considered token and why would it be? The main characters don't all have to be white. Hank and Bobby are main characters although they haven't been as integral to the team as Jean and Scott. This is less about race and more about legacy and respecting the iconography of these core members.

And as person of color myself, I never felt unrepresented or disconnected from Scott or Logan because they were white. I related more to their struggle and the themes of discrimination because of something they were born with. But I do understand that not all poc may feel the same way.

 

[Shikamaru]

I’d argue Warren should be white as well. He was the definition of privileged. A big part of his back story is that everything in his life was laid out for him, until his mutation changed everything. His character and back story make most sense if he’s white, because people of color don’t have that highest level of privilege that a straight white rich boy has.

If they go with that characterization, then yeah. It's part of the reason I don't think Angel will make the cut (I suspect they'll want only 2-3 white actors like in Homecoming and that they'll prioritize other white X-Men over him).

 

[Lip]

I’d argue Warren should be white as well. He was the definition of privileged. A big part of his back story is that everything in his life was laid out for him, until his mutation changed everything. His character and back story make most sense if he’s white, because people of color don’t have that highest level of privilege that a straight white rich boy has.

I do like that approach. But my guess for Warren is that he'll be the Hawkeye of the X-Men. Luckly FOX threw such iconic storyline away in XMA, so now Marvel can adapt the friend turned foe story for him.