Dark of the Moon Michael Bay has killed Transformers for me

[sto_vo_kor_2000]

It just doesn't fit with the entire universe. There are one of a kind Transformers that are the size of a city. Are you telling me they were born? That doesn't make any sense.

Thats open to debate.

If your going to do the robo-organic thing, that fine, but go somewhere with it. The only time they even eluded to it in the Bay films was a couple of cyber-embryo sacs behind the Fallen in one scene.

For the most part they've left the concept completely unexplored.

I agree here.Bad writting, directing.

But thats why I say hate the films for what they were,bad stories, not for "not being G1-enough".

 

[Hotwire]

LOL!

"Beer belly" Optimus Prime looks nothing like G1 cartoons and comics.

Is that the best G1 rendition they could do? Give me a break. That looks like they did it just to say to the naysayers, "we tried and it didn't work".

um, no, you didn't try.

OK, how would you have made it look?

 

[Hotwire]

Thanks for posting Hotwire.

So instead of shooting for this:

Is there supposed to be a picture here?

They do this:

I like how they angled the camera just right so you don't see his ******** hand transformations.

See the red text.

Also, there was this video...

 

[nogap87]

See the red text.

Don't know what happened to the pic:
http://tfwiki.net/w2/images2/9/97/Ongoing_Issue_1-Optimus_Surrenders.jpg

Also, there was this video...

Which would have looked fine after $200 million worth of effort was pumped into it.

 

[Marvin]

I'll admit you made a good point here, but ultimately it only serves to help my case not yours.

While this is a "film" in the sense of how its distributed and created, its not a "movie" in the traditional use of the word.

This film is more a cross between poetry and photography as in the way its presented.

Bays TF movies are attempts to tell a story, stories that failed because of the poor characterizations.

Glad to see you're on board with said theory. Being an animator it's something I discuss often.

Bays films attempt to entertain the audience and just like the Hangover, they were successful considering the audience went for cinema and not the actors studio. As far as I'm concerned the TF movies like alot of movies have about 3 characters. and as far as I'm concerned they are as "fleshed out" as they need to be for the film to work.

Because, even at its commercial worst , TF stories have always been more sophisticated then Green eggs and ham.

And that trend has yet to end, you should be happy.

I'm sure there is, unfortunately. but thre existing audience of the TF franchise should not have been sidelined in favor of catering to that kind of audience.

The "existing" audience can hardly support their own material let alone a film, if anything the films strong presence in modern pop culture is a testament to the argument....and again look at GI Joe, a direction 10x more faithful (on paper) than anything bays team has done

The man is dead, cant tell him anything anymore.

But funny you bring it up since more substance and character was written into his characters for the movie adaptations of The Grinch, the Cat in the Hat, Horrendous hears a hoot.

and hows that working out for them?

I really dont think thats the case here.

True, there will always be those that complain, but complaining about small dislikes and little details hardly compares to the basic complasints in this case.

Every film that attempts to tell a story needs good characterization, its just a plain and simple fact..

Bay's work as a whole is a very strong contribution to the art of cinema, politics aside Criterion got it right. If the story was tighter I'm sure that would have been some people happy but then again 2001 is one of the most plotless films I have ever seen and unlike the moving photography films that one was also trying to tell a story. Who am I to tell the many "fans" of that film that it needs more story and they are liking something that shouldn't be liked.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Because its not an opinion.

If it's fact then prove it. Prove scientifically, that you're using a greater amount of common sense.

Its common practice for film makers to look to insects, and sea life, for inspiration on alien looks.

But you don't add them to robots unless you're trying to make a direct parallel. Humans are meant to be that parallel. Giving them chicken legs and insect parts only confuses this point. Transformers are humanoid soldiers not giant monsters. This is Micheal Bay's attempt to turn Transformers into a big, dumb Godzilla fight.

Call it "lazy" if you want, but its effective.

The audience knows the Transformers are aliens because in the first 10 minutes Optimus tells the audience they're from a distant planet. People don't guess this from the animal anatomy.

Now who thinks his opinion is superior??

"superior technology" and life like robots dont really indicate anything.

Superior technology could mean only two things: from the future or an alien race. And all you need is a crashed spaceship to show the Transformers are aliens if not outright explain it in the first moments using a narrative.

Just looking at the Autobots, even the character of "Sam" thought they were Japanese not alien

And Sam is not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. It says more about him than it does the Transformers.

Thats just it, these Trasnsformers are born, and they may very well breed.

So I guess Fortress Maximus has a very very big mother and that baby Aerialbots are born like cubs. Sorry but breeding and births don't fit the Transformers universe. They're are built individually as part of a technological arms race. That explains why certain Transformers are rare and give one side an advantage. The decepticons need help so they build the constructicons, the autobots need to counter them so they build the Dinobots, then the decepticons build Scorponok and the autobots Fortress Maximus. Every life is chess piece in a war game.

And even the G1 TF's of the comics reproduced by a form of cell division.

Such a poor example.

How does cell division result in gears, wheels, computer chips and wiring? Sorry but it doesn't fit.

 

[Marvin]

It just doesn't fit with the entire universe. There are one of a kind Transformers that are the size of a city. Are you telling me they were born? That doesn't make any sense.

You are implying what exactly? That transformers are built robots?
By whom?
And I'm guessing your theory will not involve the creation of the soul like spark.

If your going to do the robo-organic thing, that fine, but go somewhere with it. The only time they even eluded to it in the Bay films was a couple of cyber-embryo sacs behind the Fallen in one scene.

For the most part they've left the concept completely unexplored.

not every concept need be explored, especially if it's not created by gene Roddenberry. And I'm not saying that because this is primarily for kids who want to play with toys. Batman begins didn't dive into Ninjitsu as much as it should have, too many other things to do with the limited run time. How many unexplored concepts are present the Alien movies...etc.

They honestly didn't have to elude to it at all in my opinion, "bay probably just thought it was a cool sci-fi trope" (being a co writer and all)

But you don't add them to robots unless you're trying to make a direct parallel. Humans are meant to be that parallel. Giving them chicken legs and insect parts only confuses this point. Transformers are humanoid soldiers not giant monsters. This is Micheal Bay's attempt to turn Transformers into a big, dumb Godzilla fight.


The audience knows the Transformers are aliens because in the first 10 minutes Optimus tells the audience they're from a distant planet. People don't guess this from the animal anatomy.

first rule of fight club
"Show don't tell"
My problem with what your suggesting is that when you present an alien creature in cinema, you want to make it look alien. ET for example could have looked like a lizard or a teddy bear but they gave him the long neck and small mouth and whatnot in order to make him look not familiar. The same rules apply when designing robots. Now working with the "show and not don't just tell theory," You can either make a robot look like it is not of this earth or you can make it look like a US military experiment.

Star Scream and Megatron are strong examples of making a lifeforms/robot/technology look alien.

If you were going to present the ship that Superman came to earth in to an audience. Sure the fact that it is from another planet could be enough to get the point across, but "a good director" should also give it an alien design I think

I'm actually curious why transformers are even humanoid to begin with? Ignoring the 80's cartoon logic of course.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

You are implying what exactly? That transformers are built robots?
By whom?
And I'm guessing your theory will not involve the creation of the soul like spark.

Transformers build other Transformers. They also give each other the life force before they function.

not every concept need be explored, especially if it's not created by gene Roddenberry. And I'm not saying that because this is primarily for kids who want to play with toys. Batman begins didn't dive into Ninjitsu as much as it should have, too many other things to do with the limited run time. How many unexplored concepts are present the Alien movies...etc.

They honestly didn't have to elude to it at all in my opinion, "bay probably just thought it was a cool sci-fi trope" (being a co writer and all)

Batman Begins explains how Bruce uses ninjitsu to gain Ras Al Ghul's respect and to become a stealthy crime fighter. That's alot more than showing some ninja stars on the wall behind Batman.

I'm not saying they should read a thesis on organic cybernetics but play with the idea more. Don't just use it as an easter egg when it's the entire foundation for your Transformers concept.

first rule of fight club

"Show don't tell"

I'm actually curious why transformers are even humanoid to begin with? Ignoring the obvious 80's cartoon logic of course.

They're humanoid because they mirror human flaws and strengths. They have guns like humans, they have fears like humans, they have conquest like humans. They exhibit cowardice, bravery, greed, and sadness. They fight for power, freedom and energy. they have languege and sophisticated tools.

They don't mirror bugs or fish. They're civilized beings. They mirror humans.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

They were around millions of years before humans even existed.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

Star Scream and Megatron are strong examples of making a lifeforms/robot/technology look alien.

If you were going to present the ship that Superman came to earth in to an audience. Sure the fact that it is from another planet could be enough to get the point across, but "a good director" should also give it an alien design I think

.

Starscream and Megatron look like monsters, not robotic soldiers of an intergalactic war. Why turn this into a cheap Godzilla flick when these are advanced robots who have complex personalites and human-like motivations?

and why would you only be allowed to use physical anatomy for clues to the alien origin? Why not use other aspects of storytelling? Perhaps Optimus pointing to the stars and identifying his solar system. Or a message from Shockwave from Cybertron. Or Megatron commenting on "primitive human technology". Far better than putting a insect mouth on Starscream and calling it a day.

 

[Marvin]

Transformers build other Transformers. They also give each other the life force before they function.

Interesting theory, I'm not an authority on the matter but not the way I see it. Then again, I joined during the beast wars days.

Batman Begins explains how Bruce uses ninjitsu to gain Ras Al Ghul's respect and to become a stealthy crime fighter. That's alot more than showing some ninja stars on the wall behind Batman.

I'm not saying they should read a thesis on organic cybernetics but play with the idea more. Don't just use it as an easter egg when it's the entire foundation for your Transformers concept.

Doing something better than a bay movie hardly qualifies it as being done well. Haha that's actually quite fun. Ninja arts are a decoration in the batman movies but it all good cause there are other things to focus on....Liiiiiiiikkkke sleuthing and crime scene investigation, this is batman after all.

Face it, the fact that we are having this discussion is a testament to how vague the concept is explored in the very source material. However blaming bay for all the faults of the property is common practice.

They're humanoid because they mirror human flaws and strengths. They have guns like humans, they have fears like humans, they have conquest like humans. They exhibit cowardice, bravery, greed, and sadness. They fight for power, freedom and energy. they have languege and sophisticated tools.

They don't mirror bugs or fish. They're civilized beings. They mirror humans.

when it comes to nature's hand in the universe, mirrioring human flaws and strengths has nothing to do with a physical resemblance. District 9 is maybe the best modern example of that.

(Let alone years of disney movies.

Starscream and Megatron look like monsters, not robotic soldiers of an intergalactic war. Why turn this into a cheap Godzilla flick when these are advanced robots who have complex personalites and human-like motivations?

and why would you only be allowed to use physical anatomy for clues to the alien origin? Why not use other aspects of storytelling? Perhaps Optimus pointing to the stars and identifying his solar system. Or a message from Shockwave from Cybertron. Or Megatron commenting on "primitive human technology". Far better than putting a insect mouth on Starscream and calling it a day.

there is no standardized look for soldiers of an intergalactic war.
and they're is hardly anything godzilla about that forest battle, it was actually very human.

Why not have aliens that look like aliens I suppose is the answer. if they came from the bottom of the ocean i suppose they would look the part also. Anywhere but from an 80's toy line designers mind.

 

[Marvin]

In my opinion the design aspects presented here really capture the idea of alien robots in disguise.

and this is what special and unique thing that the direction of these films bring.

[YT]PX1P9i6oml4[/YT]

 

[Jake Cassidy]

Who's to say that humans are the most civilised species in the universe?

 

[Marvin]

Who's to say that humans are the most civilised species in the universe?

I don't think he's saying that humans are the most civilized, rather that in order to have human personality and cultural traits you need to look human or at least not like anything other earth based creature.

 

[Jake Cassidy]

I know what he meant.

They were around millions of years before we even existed. Doesn't that mean that we should have cybertronian traits? t:

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

OK, how would you have made it look?

 

[Jake Cassidy]

I would love to see a TF movie with 30-year-old vehicles instead of modern ones.

Ironhide would be the most badass minivan ever.

 

[roach]

so something that didnt look like it would come from a truck and would require a lot of "cheating" on the designs

 

[Jake Cassidy]

I'm surprised he didn't want Wolverine in his yellow spandex too.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

when it comes to nature's hand in the universe, mirrioring human flaws and strengths has nothing to do with a physical resemblance. District 9 is maybe the best modern example of that.

The District 9 uses a gruesome looking alien to force one to rethink our own prejudices. There's a reason they look the way they do and it's not as simple as slamming some fangs on them to show their evil (Megatron).

 

[Marvin]

gotta admit those are some pretty rad poses

 

[roach]

I'm surprised he didn't want Wolverine in his yellow spandex too.

probably

 

[Jake Cassidy]

The original Megatron looked evil.

 

[MessiahDecoy123]

so something that didnt look like it would come from a truck and would require a lot of "cheating" on the designs

Bay's designs require cheating too.

The general audience doesn't care.

 

[roach]

The District 9 uses a gruesome looking alien to force one to rethink our own prejudices. There's a reason they look the way they do and it's not as simple as slamming some fangs on them to show their evil (Megatron).

dont forget the red eyes or deep voice