Naruto - Part 1

[Lord]

Only parts of it, the begining and end weren't revealed, this fight has been hyped for years.

 

[Jick]

We didn't get parts, we got an entire sequence. The pinnacle of their struggle. After we've seen the climax of the fight, we don't really need to go small and get less with the beginning. Maybe they started their battle just like that.
I really want to see this story moving forward and I'm ok with skipping the unnecessary.

We just need to see what happens after Madara is defeated.

 

[Lord]

We started in the middle of the battle and it ended with both using some powerful techniques, that isn't the entire sequence, that's like saying the moment when Naruto and Sasuke transformed and those first 2 minutes of that fight were the entire sequence.

Madara vs Hashirama was hyped as one of the legendary fights, it doesn't deserved to be half-****d, we're already in the final phase of Naruto, there's no need to rush things now.

 

[Jick]

I didn't say it is THE entire sequence. I meant it is AN entire sequence, not ''parts'' of a battle. What comes before that is Madara summoning the Kyuubi and parrying with Hashirama. The legendary part of their fight was already shown. What comes before is those two simply exchanging punches like two regular shinobis.

To have the climax of the battle only THEN to show the beginning of it is pretty pointless when it'll add nothing to the fight or to the story Hashirama is telling. Think about it. If Kishi was going to do it, he would have started with that already. It would be like showing Naruto with the Kyuubi cloak fighting against Sasuke in his curse mark level 2 first, in the Valley of the End, in the summit of the fight, then them again in their normal status, at the beginning of the struggle, throwing kunais and kicking each other.

What we need to see is what happens after their big attack against each other. If Hashirama dies and what Madara does. What comes before is nothing special compared to what was already shown.

 

[Jick]

Ah, the manga is interesting again. Too bad there won't be a chapter next week, but at least they can finally end this war without interruptions of other flashbacks and characters.

I totally wasn't expecting for Sasuke and Orochimaru's decision. I wonder if Kishi changed his mind about having the last battle be Sasuke against Naruto.

 

[Liam_H]

In one chapter I don't find Sasuke to be as annoying anymore. Took him long enough to realize.

 

[Lord]

Kinda disapointed about Naruto vs Sasuke probably not happening, but i don't mind much, Itachi and the Hokages have given him better reasons not to destroy Konoha than Naruto would ever be able to, i can still see him going after the elders though. However if Orochimaru trully turned good for such a ******ed reason then i'm trully disapointed.

 

[Jick]

I hope this is just a part of Orochimaru's plan to take over Sasuke's body.
Maybe Sasuke will be hurt in the war and, in this moment of vulnerability, Orochimaru takes over him and then he can fight Naruto.

 

[Liam_H]

Not the same. Sasuke being controlled takes most of the interest out of a battle. Unless Sasuke has some hidden agenda.

 

[Lord]

Orochimaru must have some hidden agendas, but i doubt he'll take over Sasuke's body, not only did he already fail against a weaker sasuke, but he'd be a villain that appeared too suddenly, we're already in the middle of a war against Madara and Obito, it woud feel kinda off for it all to end with an old villain taking over Sasuke's body.

It's still possible for Naruto vs Sasuke to happen, i never thought Sasuke wanting to destroy Konoha was very believable but him wanting to take out those that lead to the Uchiha Massacre is, Sarutobi is already dead, Danzo was killed by him, but there are still those 2 elders left.

 

[Jick]

A SICK Orochimaru without use of his jutsus failed against Sasuke. Now we have a fully restored Orochimaru that can use his arms again for his jutsus. We also know how intelligent he is. If this is really his plan, then either he'll wait for the right moment when Sasuke is hurt or he learned how to take over Sasuke without failing again.

I don't like this idea, but I don't think Orochimaru is any better than before.

 

[Lord]

A SICK Orochimaru without use of his jutsus failed against Sasuke. Now we have a fully restored Orochimaru that can use his arms again for his jutsus. We also know how intelligent he is. If this is really his plan, then either he'll wait for the right moment when Sasuke is hurt or he learned how to take over Sasuke without failing again.

I don't like this idea, but I don't think Orochimaru is any better than before.

I know that, but it still feels like a downgrade going from Madara back to Orochimaru, this isn't an event like Bakura in Yu-Gi-Oh! for example, this is a villain that hasn't had a role in the story for years and isn't current top tier.

Orochimaru musn't have changed much, that wouldn't make much sence considered some of his actions were quite horrendous, but i doubt he'll take over Sasuke's body.

 

[The Apocalypse]

Isn't Orochimaru going to die once he's done using the Death Seal? I remember my friend pointing this out to me one day. I was thinking that he was going to become the main villain again but he showed me the page in the manga when he says once the Death Seal is sealed again he'll die.

 

[Jick]

You mean after he releases the Edo Tensei? He cut the Shinigami and changed to another body, so how does that work?

I know that, but it still feels like a downgrade going from Madara back to Orochimaru, this isn't an event like Bakura in Yu-Gi-Oh! for example, this is a villain that hasn't had a role in the story for years and isn't current top tier.

Madara hasn't had a role in the story for ever...and he appeared all of a sudden too. Anything that goes from Madara, Tobi and the Juubi to anything else will be a downgrade in terms of scale. After one of the strongest shinobis of Earth, who can also use the powers of the other strongest shinobi on Earth and summon the most terrifying being that ever lived, the battles after that will hardly be bigger. It can only be deeper.

Orochimaru musn't have changed much, that wouldn't make much sence considered some of his actions were quite horrendous, but i doubt he'll take over Sasuke's body.

And considering that he hasn't changed too much, I don't doubt anything from him. He seems really confident and relaxed.

 

[Lord]

You mean after he releases the Edo Tensei? He cut the Shinigami and changed to another body, so how does that work?Madara hasn't had a role in the story for ever...and he appeared all of a sudden too. Anything that goes from Madara, Tobi and the Juubi to anything else will be a downgrade in terms of scale. After one of the strongest shinobis of Earth, who can also use the powers of the other strongest shinobi on Earth and summon the most terrifying being that ever lived, the battles after that will hardly be bigger. It can only be deeper.

That's completelly different, in Volume 6 Orochimaru also appeared out of nowhere, so did the Akatsuki, they were new villains, that's different from an old villain that hasn't done anything in years appearing in the last arc in the last minute to take the spotlight. And when you get down to it Madara was foreshadowed for more than 20 volumes before his full appearance in the war.

Orochimaru stopped being important after his "death" by the hands of Sasuke, he was even erased again by Itachi and we were introduced to Orochimaru 2.0 with Kabuto. Oro's way beyong his league now, and you can actually go from Madara to something not downgrading in power scale, like Sasuke, who has been hyped for half the story already, or the sage of six paths, you actually have many options, most of them are as bad as Oro taking over Sasuke's body.

And considering that he hasn't changed too much, I don't doubt anything from him. He seems really confident and relaxed.

I was agreeing

 

[Jick]

That's completelly different, in Volume 6 Orochimaru also appeared out of nowhere, so did the Akatsuki, they were new villains, that's different from an old villain that hasn't done anything in years appearing in the last arc in the last minute to take the spotlight. And when you get down to it Madara was foreshadowed for more than 20 volumes before his full appearance in the war.

Orochimaru stopped being important after his "death" by the hands of Sasuke, he was even erased again by Itachi and we were introduced to Orochimaru 2.0 with Kabuto. Oro's way beyong his league now, and you can actually go from Madara to something not downgrading in power scale, like Sasuke, who has been hyped for half the story already, or the sage of six paths, you actually have many options, most of them are as bad as Oro taking over Sasuke's body.

It isn't different if you don't point the differences. I could say the same thing you did for Madara AND Orochimaru. Both are old villains that haven't done anything in years appearing in the last arc to take the spotlight. You're the one bringing up about Orochimaru coming all of a sudden. The same happened to Madara. He has been foreshadowed, but Orochimaru has actually BEEN there and fought our protagonists. He has been part of the story for much longer than Madara. Until the Uchiha was summoned, we had no idea that the Infinite Tsukuyomi plan was his.

And you're kidding yourself if you think Sasuke vs anyone will be bigger in scale than pretty much all of the Shinobi of the five great countries against Tobi, Madara and the Juubi. Including our main protagonists.

 

[Lord]

It isn't different if you don't point the differences. I could say the same thing you did for Madara AND Orochimaru. Both are old villains that haven't done anything in years appearing in the last arc to take the spotlight. You're the one bringing up about Orochimaru coming all of a sudden. The same happened to Madara. He has been foreshadowed,been part of the story for much longer than Madara. Until the Uchiha but Orochimaru has actually BEEN there and fought our protagonists. He has was summoned, we had no idea that the Infinite Tsukuyomi plan was his.

Are you serious? Orochimaru was the main villain of the entire Part I, Madara was only a villain for the war arc, his schemes may have been there for the entire Part II but he wasn't trully the villain during that time, Orochimaru appeared, did things, was killed, was killed again, and after 3 or 4 years appears out of nowhere as a way for Sasuke to meet the Hokages. Madara was dead this whole time, he has only been brought back to life recently in the war and it's revealed he had co-ploted things with Obito.

Orochimaru is a villain that has already been defeated, Madara isn't. He may have been defeated by Hashirama, but that was before the series started and he had a plot that continued through the present, Orochimaru on the other hand was active during the whole series and not only did the spotlight move from him to the Akatsuki in Part II but he was also defeated and his plan completelly failed.

And you're kidding yourself if you think Sasuke vs anyone will be bigger in scale than pretty much all of the Shinobi of the five great countries against Tobi, Madara and the Juubi. Including our main protagonists.

Sasuke had the potencial to develop into a big villain, and him fighting Naruto can bring a good emotional and epic climax to the series, Naruto has been receiving power boost frequently and so has Sasuke, if the fight does happen with won't be a full scale confrontation but just an emotional battle between the 2 most powerful ninjas of their time.

 

[Jick]

Are you serious? Orochimaru was the main villain of the entire Part I, Madara was only a villain for the war arc, his schemes may have been there for the entire Part II but he wasn't trully the villain during that time, Orochimaru appeared, did things, was killed, was killed again, and after 3 or 4 years appears out of nowhere as a way for Sasuke to meet the Hokages. Madara was dead this whole time, he has only been brought back to life recently in the war and it's revealed he had co-ploted things with Obito.

I had to read my post a couple of times to point out exactly what you were quoting, but this has nothing to do with what I posted. I talked about you mentioning Orochimaru coming all of a sudden, which also happened with Madara, and how he's been with us for much longer. Then you talk about Orochimaru and Madara's doings. It's like you're not even talking to me.

Orochimaru is a villain that has already been defeated, Madara isn't. He may have been defeated by Hashirama, but that was before the series started and he had a plot that continued through the present, Orochimaru on the other hand was active during the whole series and not only did the spotlight move from him to the Akatsuki in Part II but he was also defeated and his plan completelly failed.

You keep pointing things that happened to one of them but I can always relate it to the other character as well. Madara has also been defeated, then defeated again and his plan completely failed. Same with the members of the Akatsuki. They're defeated, their plans fail and the spotlight is moved to someone else. However, no other villain keeps coming back like Orochimaru, who is in his prime, now.
Tell me again what is the point of this conversation.

Sasuke had the potencial to develop into a big villain, and him fighting Naruto can bring a good emotional and epic climax to the series, Naruto has been receiving power boost frequently and so has Sasuke, if the fight does happen with won't be a full scale confrontation but just an emotional battle between the 2 most powerful ninjas of their time.

And what have I said to you?

After one of the strongest shinobis of Earth, who can also use the powers of the other strongest shinobi on Earth and summon the most terrifying being that ever lived, the battles after that will hardly be bigger. It can only be deeper.

Pay attention and interpret what I say before you repeat it with different words.
And unless he was lying when he said he'd help in the war, then his ''villain'' side has gone down the toilet.

 

[Lord]

I had to read my post a couple of times to point out exactly what you were quoting, but this has nothing to do with what I posted. I talked about you mentioning Orochimaru coming all of a sudden, which also happened with Madara, and how he's been with us for much longer. Then you talk about Orochimaru and Madara's doings. It's like you're not even talking to me.

Talking to you feels like talking to a wall, i point things out, you bounce them any other way. Madara was foreshadowed for a long time, we had the whole mystery of the last coffin, and there he was, Orochimaru on the other hand had been completelly defeated and suddenly there was a way to ressurrect him, Madara was the main villain of the arc, Orochimaru was a deus ex to bring Sasuke to the hokages.

You keep pointing things that happened to one of them but I can always relate it to the other character as well. Madara has also been defeated, then defeated again and his plan completely failed. Same with the members of the Akatsuki. They're defeated, their plans fail and the spotlight is moved to someone else. However, no other villain keeps coming back like Orochimaru, who is in his prime, now.
Tell me again what is the point of this conversation.

This is, what matters is the story right now, from volume 1 onwards, not from 60 years ago onwards, it's the reason why Sauron and Voldemort rising again in Lord of the rings and harry potter work, but Palpatine coming back to life in Star Wars: Dark Empire doesn't.

An orochimaru shouldn't even be as strong now, 2/3 of him has been sealed or killed.

And what have I said to you?

Pay attention and interpret what I say before you repeat it with different words.
And unless he was lying when he said he'd help in the war, then his ''villain'' side has gone down the toilet.

And what did i tell you before and am doing again?

I was agreeing

I had read your post, but Orochimaru in Sasuke's body fighting Naruto wouldn't be near as emotional, deep or epic as true sasuke fighting naruto, for starters Oro's quite weak compared to the big leagues right now, he wouldn't be accostumed to Sasuke's powers or even know all his new techniques.

And Naruto vs Sasuke at full power would still be big in scale, it wouldn't have as many individuals helping but it would certainly be devastating. Oro on the other hand has been pushed around for so long by the Uchihas that him getting the final fight would feel off.

Remember when we were wondering if he was gonna take Sasuke's body? That thought vanished 300 chapters ago, it has been so long since Orochimaru was supposed to be dead and that we have seen much more powerful oponents that him getting Sasuke's body now would be a terrible idea.

 

[Jick]

Talking to you feels like talking to a wall, i point things out, you bounce them any other way.

Then that is why you can't give a proper response. You're looking at a wall, not at my posts. This:

Spoiler

Are you serious? Orochimaru was the main villain of the entire Part I, Madara was only a villain for the war arc, his schemes may have been there for the entire Part II but he wasn't trully the villain during that time, Orochimaru appeared, did things, was killed, was killed again, and after 3 or 4 years appears out of nowhere as a way for Sasuke to meet the Hokages. Madara was dead this whole time, he has only been brought back to life recently in the war and it's revealed he had co-ploted things with Obito.

was your response to this:

Spoiler

It isn't different if you don't point the differences. I could say the same thing you did for Madara AND Orochimaru. Both are old villains that haven't done anything in years appearing in the last arc to take the spotlight. You're the one bringing up about Orochimaru coming all of a sudden. The same happened to Madara. He has been foreshadowed, but Orochimaru has actually BEEN there and fought our protagonists. He has been part of the story for much longer than Madara. Until the Uchiha was summoned, we had no idea that the Infinite Tsukuyomi plan was his.

Look how much your post isn't a direct response. You post talks about Orochimaru being the villain for part I and Madara for the current arc of part II, and that Madara co-ploted things with Obito and Orochimaru came to help Sasuke, like if I had said all the opposite, that Orochimaru wasn't a villain in part I or that Madara's plan has nothing to do with Tobi. Whatever point you're trying to make, you're not doing a good job of expressing yourself.

Madara was foreshadowed for a long time, we had the whole mystery of the last coffin, and there he was, Orochimaru on the other hand had been completelly defeated and suddenly there was a way to ressurrect him, Madara was the main villain of the arc, Orochimaru was a deus ex to bring Sasuke to the hokages.

And you continue to give me points they have in common. Madara was also completely defeated and there was a way to ressurect him - Edo Tensei. Madara was a deus ex to defeat the alliance. Orochimaru was a main villain before. Orochimaru has been here before Madara was even ''foreshadowed''. It could have been any other absurd shinobi in that coffin.
I don't agree about Madara being a main villain, though. The war is caused by Tobi and Kabuto, Madara is just part of the climax. There are more than one main.

This is, what matters is the story right now, from volume 1 onwards, not from 60 years ago onwards, it's the reason why Sauron and Voldemort rising again in Lord of the rings and harry potter work, but Palpatine coming back to life in Star Wars: Dark Empire doesn't.

What doesn't matter? Madara's defeat from Hashirama's hands and their founding of the village? It doesn't matter to you. In my opinion, it totally matters to the story. This is what made Sasuke finally decide.

An orochimaru shouldn't even be as strong now, 2/3 of him has been sealed or killed.

Yet he can fully stop Tobirama's movements due to the Senju cells in his body. Plus, he has his arms again. Without his jutsus, he could fight against a four tailed Naruto and survive. Imagine now.

And what did i tell you before and am doing again?

Nothing, because

Originally Posted by Lord
I was agreeing

has nothing to do with

Spoiler

And what have I said to you?

Pay attention and interpret what I say before you repeat it with different words.
And unless he was lying when he said he'd help in the war, then his ''villain'' side has gone down the toilet.

which was a response to

Spoiler

Sasuke had the potencial to develop into a big villain, and him fighting Naruto can bring a good emotional and epic climax to the series, Naruto has been receiving power boost frequently and so has Sasuke, if the fight does happen with won't be a full scale confrontation but just an emotional battle between the 2 most powerful ninjas of their time.

Your ''I was agreeing'' was regarding to Orochimaru not changing, which I was also agreeing but you didn't seem to notice. Not related to the battles not being bigger in scale, just deeper.

I had read your post, but Orochimaru in Sasuke's body fighting Naruto wouldn't be near as emotional, deep or epic as true sasuke fighting naruto, for starters Oro's quite weak compared to the big leagues right now, he wouldn't be accostumed to Sasuke's powers or even know all his new techniques.

And Naruto vs Sasuke at full power would still be big in scale, it wouldn't have as many individuals helping but it would certainly be devastating. Oro on the other hand has been pushed around for so long by the Uchihas that him getting the final fight would feel off.

Remember when we were wondering if he was gonna take Sasuke's body? That thought vanished 300 chapters ago, it has been so long since Orochimaru was supposed to be dead and that we have seen much more powerful oponents that him getting Sasuke's body now would be a terrible idea.

And who is saying otherwise or disagreeing? I just mentioned the idea a couple of days ago. Doesn't mean I want it. I wanted pure Evil Sasuke vs Naruto, but that is hard to see now. It hardly will be bigger in scale considering what we had so far, but it can easily be deeper.

 

[Lord]

Then that is why you can't give a proper response. You're looking at a wall, not at my posts. This:

Spoiler

Are you serious? Orochimaru was the main villain of the entire Part I, Madara was only a villain for the war arc, his schemes may have been there for the entire Part II but he wasn't trully the villain during that time, Orochimaru appeared, did things, was killed, was killed again, and after 3 or 4 years appears out of nowhere as a way for Sasuke to meet the Hokages. Madara was dead this whole time, he has only been brought back to life recently in the war and it's revealed he had co-ploted things with Obito.

was your response to this:

Spoiler

It isn't different if you don't point the differences. I could say the same thing you did for Madara AND Orochimaru. Both are old villains that haven't done anything in years appearing in the last arc to take the spotlight. You're the one bringing up about Orochimaru coming all of a sudden. The same happened to Madara. He has been foreshadowed, but Orochimaru has actually BEEN there and fought our protagonists. He has been part of the story for much longer than Madara. Until the Uchiha was summoned, we had no idea that the Infinite Tsukuyomi plan was his.

What's there not to understand? You wanted the differences i gave them to you for how it wasn't the same thing. A new villain in the manga isn't the same thing as an old villain that just appears again at the wrong time to get back to his plans. If you can't understand that as an answer i don't know any better way to write to you, i give you the explanations and you just complain that it has nothing to do with what you just said, there's just no way to give you a proper answer this way, we'll just keep answering each other until one gets tired and quits.

Look how much your post isn't a direct response. You post talks about Orochimaru being the villain for part I and Madara for the current arc of part II, and that Madara co-ploted things with Obito and Orochimaru came to help Sasuke, like if I had said all the opposite, that Orochimaru wasn't a villain in part I or that Madara's plan has nothing to do with Tobi. Whatever point you're trying to make, you're not doing a good job of expressing yourself.

So i cant say some extra things while in the discussion? Even so i didn't do that much, i answered what you said properly, if you didn't understand it then the only way i can see it is that you're analysing them the wrong way, don't ask me how, i don't know what's your problem with my answers is, it just seems that get quite annoyed when i dislike something about Naruto. (let me guess, you're going to answer this by saying i went off-discussion.)

I don't understand some of the stuff you say, when i talked about Orochimaru having been the villain of Part I i didn't say you had disagreed about that, i was explaining how it matters in the story at what point he stops being important, he could have easily became the main villain of the entire series if Kishi wanted to, but he didn't, he stoped being central after the end of Part I. After that his character just went on to become less and less impressive, him becoming the main villain right now just wouldn't make sence, i explained multiple times how already, if you don't understand i suggest you reread my past posts.

And you continue to give me points they have in common. Madara was also completely defeated and there was a way to ressurect him - Edo Tensei. Madara was a deus ex to defeat the alliance. Orochimaru was a main villain before. Orochimaru has been here before Madara was even ''foreshadowed''. It could have been any other absurd shinobi in that coffin.

But was he defeated on screen during the course of the series instead of a mere flashback? No, but Orochimaru was, that's the point, we never saw Madara himself before, only some flashbacks about his history and we were told about his feats.

Do you even know what a deus ex is?

A deus ex machina latin for "god from the machine" is a plot device whereby a seemingly unsolvable problem is suddenly and abruptly resolved, with the contrived and unexpected intervention of some new event, character, ability, or object

Madara wasn't abrupt, Kishimoto knew who Tobi really was (possibly), the sixth coffin had been shown and wasn't revealed for over a year (if i remember correctly), it promised to be a big revelation, everything there was set so as not to make Madara a Deus Ex, Orochimaru on the other hand was, he was previously completelly destroyed, and then Sasuke found a way to ressurrect him and solve his indecision.

I don't agree about Madara being a main villain, though. The war is caused by Tobi and Kabuto, Madara is just part of the climax. There are more than one main.

Who trained Obito and had his oun ressurrection in mind (which worked in a different way), and had thought most of the things that happened for the war? Madara.

The war was caused by Tobi, who had co-ploted with Madara, and they're now together leading their plan. Zabuza and Gatto were also the main villains of the village in the myst arc, yet only one was the fighter.

What doesn't matter? Madara's defeat from Hashirama's hands and their founding of the village? It doesn't matter to you. In my opinion, it totally matters to the story. This is what made Sasuke finally decide.

The story starts in Naruto vol.1, it's about his time, not Hashirama's. Look at the examples of stories i gave you, when a villain we have already seen fall already returns it just seems like a retreat (hope that's the right word). Imagine if Sauron had returned yet again? It just wouldn't feel right. It's the same reason fans don't want to see the same of villains from Star Wars again, you have to move on.

Yet he can fully stop Tobirama's movements due to the Senju cells in his body. Plus, he has his arms again. Without his jutsus, he could fight against a four tailed Naruto and survive. Imagine now.

I was saying it didn't make much sence inside the story, not that it wasn't done.

Nothing, because
has nothing to do with which was a response to

Yes i am:

if the fight does happen with won't be a full scale confrontation but just an emotional battle between the 2 most powerful ninjas of their time.

I don't even know how to answer to you, first you say that you think the final battle can still be deeper then i answer that Naruto vs Sasuke can be big too, while still maintaining that it will be an "emotional battle" and you think it has nothing to do with your quote. And Orochimaru taking over Sasuke's body would be less emotional because we would only have an andry Naruto, and not a clash of ideals.

Your ''I was agreeing'' was regarding to Orochimaru not changing, which I was also agreeing but you didn't seem to notice. Not related to the battles not being bigger in scale, just deeper.

I noticed, you just seem to have the need to disagree every time i try to agree with you.

And who is saying otherwise or disagreeing? I just mentioned the idea a couple of days ago. Doesn't mean I want it. I wanted pure Evil Sasuke vs Naruto, but that is hard to see now. It hardly will be bigger in scale considering what we had so far, but it can easily be deeper.

I don't even know how to answer to you now, you took so many half answers together that i can't give a single answer to this, and knowing this discussions you'll just turn up with even more questions about what i say and disagree with me, completelly disregarding wether i was saying you liked a certain idea or if i was criticising the idea in general.

For somebody that doesn't like the idea you've been defending it a lot. Now to start, who's disagreeing and saying otherwise? If you're talking about Orochimaru taking over Sasuke being a terrible idea you are the one defending it, because all this discussion started when i said it would be a terrible idea and agreed with you about not wanting to see it happen.

About the bigger scale i only used Sasuke as an example, but i gave others, Sasuke could ave actually developed into a more Orochimaru like character by assemblind his oun army and gaining followers, but that didn't happen. With the exagerated power boosts the characters have been receiving i wouldn't even be surprised if Kishi gave some to Naruto and Sasuke to make their battle even more epic. It's not unprecedent from Kishi to do this to Naruto or Sasuke, nobody would have predicted so many Uchihas had survived, or that the manga would center so much around them, or about ten tails, or Pain not being the Akatsuki leader or even the strongest character in the manga.

Everything's unpredictable, if Kishimoto wants to he can increase the scale as much as his imagination can (but the war's probably the limit of it, i'm just explaining how there are many ways to increase the scale). Naruto vs Sasuke can still happen, there are still 2 konoha elders running around, it makes sence for Sasuke not to want to destroy Konoha but i don't see him forgiving those two, he has already killed Danzo.

 

[Jick]

What's there not to understand? You wanted the differences i gave them to you for how it wasn't the same thing. A new villain in the manga isn't the same thing as an old villain that just appears again at the wrong time to get back to his plans. If you can't understand that as an answer i don't know any better way to write to you, i give you the explanations and you just complain that it has nothing to do with what you just said, there's just no way to give you a proper answer this way, we'll just keep answering each other until one gets tired and quits.
So i cant say some extra things while in the discussion? Even so i didn't do that much, i answered what you said properly, if you didn't understand it then the only way i can see it is that you're analysing them the wrong way, don't ask me how, i don't know what's your problem with my answers is, it just seems that get quite annoyed when i dislike something about Naruto. (let me guess, you're going to answer this by saying i went off-discussion.)

The problem, from what I'm seeing, is that you're not expressing yourself the way you want. You think of something, but you're not using the right words to say it. Like I said before, when you quoted me it seemed you were responding to things I didn't say. Like if I had said the opposite, which I didn't. Like whem you mention Madara co-ploted with Obito. I never denied that or said otherwise, but you brought that up, among other things, in a way that seemed that I told you otherwise before. Like you say in the following quotes, you're not understanding some things that I'm saying. If you have any doubts, just ask what specific things you didn't understand and I'll explain to you.

I don't understand some of the stuff you say, when i talked about Orochimaru having been the villain of Part I i didn't say you had disagreed about that, i was explaining how it matters in the story at what point he stops being important, he could have easily became the main villain of the entire series if Kishi wanted to, but he didn't, he stoped being central after the end of Part I. After that his character just went on to become less and less impressive, him becoming the main villain right now just wouldn't make sence, i explained multiple times how already, if you don't understand i suggest you reread my past posts.

Who wants Orochimaru to be the main villain? Do you? I don't, nor have I said that. The reason why I said before that you're not giving a direct response to what I say is because it seems you're responding to someone else. Like in this quote. You keep pointing things that I didn't say...like if I had said.

But was he defeated on screen during the course of the series instead of a mere flashback? No, but Orochimaru was, that's the point, we never saw Madara himself before, only some flashbacks about his history and we were told about his feats.

So what? If the fight between Sasuke and Orochimaru and Sasuke and Itachi had happened off-scream and we had Sasuke tell someone about the fights later, it still would be considered, because it happened. Being a flashback doesn't rule it out. So what that Madara's defeat is a part of a flashback? This is just a detail. What happened, happened.

Do you even know what a deus ex is?
Madara wasn't abrupt, Kishimoto knew who Tobi really was (possibly), the sixth coffin had been shown and wasn't revealed for over a year (if i remember correctly), it promised to be a big revelation, everything there was set so as not to make Madara a Deus Ex, Orochimaru on the other hand was, he was previously completelly destroyed, and then Sasuke found a way to ressurrect him and solve his indecision.

Yes, I know what a D.Ex is. I tend to know what I'm talking about before I do so. Like you said, Kishi ''probably'' knew who Tobi really was. In the same way that we can guess that Kishi really planned to bring Madara back with that coffin, we can also guess that he planned to bring Orochimaru back. Some time ago, long before Oro was brought back, someone told me ''you really think someone like Orochimaru is gone for good? You don't know him...''
He was right. If I ever believed that he really wouldn't come back, than fool on me and everyone else who did. He is such a treachrous character full of plans. I never really thought that, when he was sucked into the Susano'o' gourd, that he was dead. I can't even think of a way to permanently kill, him.
He was sliced in half by Naruto, after all.
Anyway, the reason why I think Madara was an D.ex is because he was brought up when Kabuto was losing the war. He came and completely changed things in the blink of an eye. He destroyed the entire fourth squad with one jutsu and almost killed two kages with that. The problem was ''abruplty resolved'', like the description says. I don't actually consider Madara a Deux ex without considering Oro too, because I don't think that'd be fair. But, if one is a D.ex, than I have to consider the other one to, since they have a lot in common.

Who trained Obito and had his oun ressurrection in mind (which worked in a different way), and had thought most of the things that happened for the war? Madara.

The war was caused by Tobi, who had co-ploted with Madara, and they're now together leading their plan. Zabuza and Gatto were also the main villains of the village in the myst arc, yet only one was the fighter.

And I disagree again. I think you'll find very few people who think Gatto is a main villain in the first arc. He was just a guy that brought Zabuza into scene.
Despite what Madara did, which we only learn about after he is brought back, doesn't make him the main villain of the arc. His plan was to be ressurected via Nagato's powers. The war was planned by Tobi and Kabuto is the one who brought Madara back, which wasn't in his plans. It is Kabuto who summoned the strongest Shinobis to fight in the war and Tobi who found a way to bring back the Juubi without the Hachibi and Kyuubi. Madara is here now, in a different way than he had planned, and is adapting to his surroundings. I'm not saying he isn't a main villain, just that he isn't THE main villain.

The story starts in Naruto vol.1, it's about his time, not Hashirama's. Look at the examples of stories i gave you, when a villain we have already seen fall already returns it just seems like a retreat (hope that's the right word).

You're disregarding Hashirama's story because of that? The story starts in vol.1, but the HISTORY starts much before the events of the first chaper. This story isn't all about Naruto. Yes, this isn't, overall, about Hashiram's time, but it is because of that time that we have Naruto's time and it's because of that time that Sasuke may not destroy the village anymore.

Yes i am:

Holy...Oh my God! Look back when you posted this. It was AFTER I posted that the battles after Madara won't be bigger, just deeper. You repeated what I said with not so different words. And, in your previous post, you weren't even referencing that! You quoted the part where you said ''And what did i tell you before and am doing again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord
I was agreeing''
, which was referencing the part where you agreed about Orochimaru not changing so much, which has nothing to do with battles being bigger or deeper.

I don't even know how to answer to you, first you say that you think the final battle can still be deeper then i answer that Naruto vs Sasuke can be big too, while still maintaining that it will be an "emotional battle" and you think it has nothing to do with your quote.

No, what I said was: ''Pay attention and interpret what I say before you repeat it with different words.''
Look up. It doesn't mean it has nothing to do with the post. It means that you were saying the same thing I did prior to that.

I noticed, you just seem to have the need to disagree every time i try to agree with you.

If you noticed, then how can you say that I was disagreeing? This doesn't make sense! I was agreeing!

For somebody that doesn't like the idea you've been defending it a lot. Now to start, who's disagreeing and saying otherwise? If you're talking about Orochimaru taking over Sasuke being a terrible idea you are the one defending it, because all this discussion started when i said it would be a terrible idea and agreed with you about not wanting to see it happen.

What am I defending? Orochimaru taking over Sasuke? Where amd I defending that? I've only been pointing out the similarities between Oro and Madara so far. I'm not defending anything about Sasuke being taken over. I've already stressed that I don't like this idea. What I said is that I hope something like that it is part of his plans because I don't want to see a good Orochimaru. It doesn't mean I want it to happen. I don't.

About the bigger scale i only used Sasuke as an example, but i gave others, Sasuke could ave actually developed into a more Orochimaru like character by assemblind his oun army and gaining followers, but that didn't happen. With the exagerated power boosts the characters have been receiving i wouldn't even be surprised if Kishi gave some to Naruto and Sasuke to make their battle even more epic. It's not unprecedent from Kishi to do this to Naruto or Sasuke, nobody would have predicted so many Uchihas had survived, or that the manga would center so much around them, or about ten tails, or Pain not being the Akatsuki leader or even the strongest character in the manga.
Everything's unpredictable, if Kishimoto wants to he can increase the scale as much as his imagination can (but the war's probably the limit of it, i'm just explaining how there are many ways to increase the scale). Naruto vs Sasuke can still happen, there are still 2 konoha elders running around, it makes sence for Sasuke not to want to destroy Konoha but i don't see him forgiving those two, he has already killed Danzo.

Unless all of the remaining shinobi of the world and shinobi's from other worlds come to the fight between Sasuke and Naruto, it will hardly be bigger in scale. Not that it is a bad thing. In my opinion, the best battles of this story were the more personal ones, like the battle against Pain. It doesn't need to be bigger.

 

[Lord]

The problem, from what I'm seeing, is that you're not expressing yourself the way you want. You think of something, but you're not using the right words to say it. Like I said before, when you quoted me it seemed you were responding to things I didn't say. Like if I had said the opposite, which I didn't. Like whem you mention Madara co-ploted with Obito. I never denied that or said otherwise, but you brought that up, among other things, in a way that seemed that I told you otherwise before. Like you say in the following quotes, you're not understanding some things that I'm saying. If you have any doubts, just ask what specific things you didn't understand and I'll explain to you.

English may not be my first language but i've reread everything i've read and i answer you plain and simple, and i then use other elements as examples, just because i use Orochimaru having been the villain of Part I and not being very important in Part II it doesn't mean you said it, it's a fact i'm using to reinforce my statement, you don't have to see everything as a direct oposition to your quotes.

Who wants Orochimaru to be the main villain? Do you? I don't, nor have I said that. The reason why I said before that you're not giving a direct response to what I say is because it seems you're responding to someone else. Like in this quote. You keep pointing things that I didn't say...like if I had said.

I'm saying why i hate the idea, and i use events of why i think it wouldn't work. We're here now because you've kept disagreeing about some of the things i say, and i'm trying to explain you why i have this opinion.

So what? If the fight between Sasuke and Orochimaru and Sasuke and Itachi had happened off-scream and we had Sasuke tell someone about the fights later, it still would be considered, because it happened. Being a flashback doesn't rule it out. So what that Madara's defeat is a part of a flashback? This is just a detail. What happened, happened.

When Zabusa first appeared he had previously been defeated, but just like with Madara the thing is that he's a new villain, we have never seen him before, until now he didn't seem to matter to the story, Madara for example only became to matter during the war and we only trully knew everything now, Orochimaru had his fair share of screen time during Part I and the begining of Part II, however his plot and schemes ended there, while Madara's plans have been slowlly gaining steam and Sasuke had slowlly been hyped as villain. Orochimaru becoming the main villain again just doesn't feel natural or as progressive because his plans haven't been in motion for a long time.

Once again i'm not saying you disagree with this, i'm just trying to explain to you why i feel like it doesn't really work.

Yes, I know what a D.Ex is. I tend to know what I'm talking about before I do so. Like you said, Kishi ''probably'' knew who Tobi really was. In the same way that we can guess that Kishi really planned to bring Madara back with that coffin, we can also guess that he planned to bring Orochimaru back. Some time ago, long before Oro was brought back, someone told me ''you really think someone like Orochimaru is gone for good? You don't know him...''
He was right. If I ever believed that he really wouldn't come back, than fool on me and everyone else who did. He is such a treachrous character full of plans. I never really thought that, when he was sucked into the Susano'o' gourd, that he was dead. I can't even think of a way to permanently kill, him.
He was sliced in half by Naruto, after all.

You would probably have to seal all of his genes. Oro coming back wasn't hard to predict, but the way he came back to life was quite fast, as if it wasn't a big problem at all.

Anyway, the reason why I think Madara was an D.ex is because he was brought up when Kabuto was losing the war. He came and completely changed things in the blink of an eye. He destroyed the entire fourth squad with one jutsu and almost killed two kages with that. The problem was ''abruplty resolved'', like the description says. I don't actually consider Madara a Deux ex without considering Oro too, because I don't think that'd be fair. But, if one is a D.ex, than I have to consider the other one to, since they have a lot in common.

But with Madara the coffin was already shoun to be one of the enemies weapons and something to use in case of emergency, it's not really a deus ex if you foreshadow it for some 50 chapters, Oro was ressurrected in just one.

And I disagree again. I think you'll find very few people who think Gatto is a main villain in the first arc. He was just a guy that brought Zabuza into scene.

If you get down to it he was the true villain of the story arc, people don't remember him much because he just wasn't memorable, the same way people tend to look at Davy Jones and forget about Cuttler Becket.

Despite what Madara did, which we only learn about after he is brought back, doesn't make him the main villain of the arc. His plan was to be ressurected via Nagato's powers. The war was planned by Tobi and Kabuto is the one who brought Madara back, which wasn't in his plans. It is Kabuto who summoned the strongest Shinobis to fight in the war and Tobi who found a way to bring back the Juubi without the Hachibi and Kyuubi. Madara is here now, in a different way than he had planned, and is adapting to his surroundings. I'm not saying he isn't a main villain, just that he isn't THE main villain.

Madara wasn't the main villain but he was one of the main villains, more so than Kabuto, when you're the final boss you have right to be called one of the big villains (depending of the context of course).

You're disregarding Hashirama's story because of that? The story starts in vol.1, but the HISTORY starts much before the events of the first chaper. This story isn't all about Naruto. Yes, this isn't, overall, about Hashiram's time, but it is because of that time that we have Naruto's time and it's because of that time that Sasuke may not destroy the village anymore.

I know it isn't, even though it's called Naruto it has spent a lot of times with other characters like Sasuke, the konoha rookies should have even been given more screen time in Part II, in a previous answer in this post i adress the difference between Madara and Orochimaru as villains and their role in the plot.

Holy...Oh my God! Look back when you posted this. It was AFTER I posted that the battles after Madara won't be bigger, just deeper. You repeated what I said with not so different words.

What i said was that there were still ways to make it bigger, not that it would be bigger, it can be as big as Kishi wants it to be, doesn't mean it'll be better by being bigger.

And, in your previous post, you weren't even referencing that! You quoted the part where you said ''And what did i tell you before and am doing again?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord
I was agreeing''
, which was referencing the part where you agreed about Orochimaru not changing so much, which has nothing to do with battles being bigger or deeper.

I used that quote because i wanted to show you that once again i was agreeing with you, it didn't have anything to do with a previous idea, but about you again thinking i'm disagreeing with you when i'm in fact agreeing.

No, what I said was: ''Pay attention and interpret what I say before you repeat it with different words.''
Look up. It doesn't mean it has nothing to do with the post. It means that you were saying the same thing I did prior to that.

huhm:

After one of the strongest shinobis of Earth, who can also use the powers of the other strongest shinobi on Earth and summon the most terrifying being that ever lived, the battles after that will hardly be bigger. It can only be deeper

Sasuke had the potencial to develop into a big villain, and him fighting Naruto can bring a good emotional and epic climax to the series, Naruto has been receiving power boost frequently and so has Sasuke, if the fight does happen with won't be a full scale confrontation but just an emotional battle between the 2 most powerful ninjas of their time.

Right there i was agreeing with you while still maintaining that it can still be quite big in scale.

About the bigger scale i only used Sasuke as an example, but i gave others, Sasuke could ave actually developed into a more Orochimaru like character by assemblind his oun army and gaining followers, but that didn't happen. With the exagerated power boosts the characters have been receiving i wouldn't even be surprised if Kishi gave some to Naruto and Sasuke to make their battle even more epic. It's not unprecedent from Kishi to do this to Naruto or Sasuke, nobody would have predicted so many Uchihas had survived, or that the manga would center so much around them, or about ten tails, or Pain not being the Akatsuki leader or even the strongest character in the manga.

And here i adress how a bigger scale event can still happens, it still doesn't mean it's the best course to take.

If you noticed, then how can you say that I was disagreeing? This doesn't make sense! I was agreeing!

For starters we've been having a discussion about how Naruto vs Sasuke will have to be more emotional and that we both don't want Oro to become the main villain again and steal Sasuke's body. Let's just move on from that subject.

What am I defending? Orochimaru taking over Sasuke? Where amd I defending that? I've only been pointing out the similarities between Oro and Madara so far. I'm not defending anything about Sasuke being taken over. I've already stressed that I don't like this idea. What I said is that I hope something like that it is part of his plans because I don't want to see a good Orochimaru. It doesn't mean I want it to happen. I don't.

How much you're saying Orochimaru's ressurrection isn't that different from Madara's, i think that from a plot perspective it's way too forced at this stage.

Unless all of the remaining shinobi of the world and shinobi's from other worlds come to the fight between Sasuke and Naruto, it will hardly be bigger in scale. Not that it is a bad thing. In my opinion, the best battles of this story were the more personal ones, like the battle against Pain. It doesn't need to be bigger.

I know, i've adressed that before. But what do you mean about the battle against Pain being more personal? It was the biggest in scale after the shinobi war.

 

[Jick]

English may not be my first language but i've reread everything i've read and i answer you plain and simple, and i then use other elements as examples, just because i use Orochimaru having been the villain of Part I and not being very important in Part II it doesn't mean you said it, it's a fact i'm using to reinforce my statement, you don't have to see everything as a direct oposition to your quotes.

Then it is as I thought. You're just not doing the best at expressing yourself. That's why my posts may look confusing to you and vice versa. English is not my first language either, but everyday I learn something new here. I'm pretty sure that I might have some mistakes in some of my sentences, too.
Like I said before, if you didn't understand something I posted, just ask and I'll try to explain in another way.

When Zabusa first appeared he had previously been defeated, but just like with Madara the thing is that he's a new villain, we have never seen him before, until now he didn't seem to matter to the story, Madara for example only became to matter during the war and we only trully knew everything now, Orochimaru had his fair share of screen time during Part I and the begining of Part II, however his plot and schemes ended there, while Madara's plans have been slowlly gaining steam and Sasuke had slowlly been hyped as villain. Orochimaru becoming the main villain again just doesn't feel natural or as progressive because his plans haven't been in motion for a long time.

But that is just assumption. You're taking a wild guess. We don't know if his schemes ended there. And, the fact that he is here now brings a lot of possibilities. While the story still goes with him there, anything can happen. We know how treacherous he is. Maybe he planned to come back in some way, like Madara did. But, also like Madara, he came back in a different way. We'll only know for sure about how far his schemes go when the story ends.

You would probably have to seal all of his genes. Oro coming back wasn't hard to predict, but the way he came back to life was quite fast, as if it wasn't a big problem at all.

I agree with that. And, the way how he was ressurected, so easily, makes it even harder to kill him. He's far from being just human like the other shinobis.

But with Madara the coffin was already shoun to be one of the enemies weapons and something to use in case of emergency, it's not really a deus ex if you foreshadow it for some 50 chapters, Oro was ressurrected in just one.

I can still say the same for Oro. Besides him always coming back in some way and being so hard to kill, Kabuto mixed his dna with that of Orochimaru. He even gained the same eyes. I can also say that was ''foreshadowing'' enough. After all, as we can see, Oro really is here. So, if anyone said that Kabuto having his powers was a foreshadow for his return, this someone was right. Oro came out of nowhere and completely changed the tide regarding Sasuke's mission. Madara came out of nowhere and completely changed the tide of the war. As I see, both are D.ex...or none are. The more we talk about them, the more I find comparisons to make.

If you get down to it he was the true villain of the story arc, people don't remember him much because he just wasn't memorable, the same way people tend to look at Davy Jones and forget about Cuttler Becket.

The more I remember, the less I agree. Zabuza did everything. Gatto was just an excuse for Zabuza to be there. Not just because he wasn't memorable, but because he barely did anything nor was shown to the same extent. Also, his plan backfired, having Zabuza himself acting against him. Gatto was just the average joe who hired Zabuza and Haku. The plot revolved all around these two, even showing their past and developing their characters. Gatto wasn't.

Madara wasn't the main villain but he was one of the main villains

Which is what I JUST said in the previous post.

What i said was that there were still ways to make it bigger, not that it would be bigger, it can be as big as Kishi wants it to be, doesn't mean it'll be better by being bigger.

But I never see you saying how it can be bigger, just that it can. I offered an absurd idea, which would be to take shinobis from other worlds and bringing to Earth to fight alongside Naruto. Which most likely won't happen. This battle is so big in scale because pretty much ALL of the shinobis from the five great countries are fighting and showing their strongest jutsus at the same time against the STRONGEST monster that ever existed and one of the strongest shinobi using the powers of the other strongest shinobi of his the past. There is too much crap involved with the best and the strongest of everything. And now the past kages are going to fight too. The only way for the next battles to be bigger in scale is to have all of that again and MORE. That's how it would ''break'' the current scale that has been met. Honestly, I don't want anything bigger. I want just one more battle between Naruto and Sasuke and an ending for this story.

I used that quote because i wanted to show you that once again i was agreeing with you, it didn't have anything to do with a previous idea, but about you again thinking i'm disagreeing with you when i'm in fact agreeing.

You just needed to have made that clear before you posted, then. I couldn't have understood that from what came before and after your quote, including what you were referencing with that.

And here i adress how a bigger scale event can still happens, it still doesn't mean it's the best course to take.

Refer to the quotes above. That is how you make it even bigger in scale.

I know, i've adressed that before. But what do you mean about the battle against Pain being more personal? It was the biggest in scale after the shinobi war.

Naruto kept saying all the time how pissed off he was that Pain had killed his master. He was so angry because of that. He wasn't doing this just for Konoha. He wanted his revenge. That's when the talk about hatred from Pain started.

 

[Lord]

Then it is as I thought. You're just not doing the best at expressing yourself. That's why my posts may look confusing to you and vice versa. English is not my first language either, but everyday I learn something new here. I'm pretty sure that I might have some mistakes in some of my sentences, too.
Like I said before, if you didn't understand something I posted, just ask and I'll try to explain in another way.

Which makes our discussion more difficult, but i believe you're answering the wrong questions, either way we're only wasting out times discussing things we agree with so let's move on to another topic.

Naruto kept saying all the time how pissed off he was that Pain had killed his master. He was so angry because of that. He wasn't doing this just for Konoha. He wanted his revenge. That's when the talk about hatred from Pain started.

Are you talking about Naruto vs pain or Naruto vs Nagato?