Negativity towards the DC films? - Part 1

[Sleiek]

So what I'm noticing is people love characters who are talkers.

DCEU Superman is a doer.

 

[Erzengel]

The similarities are certainly there but I'm not sure how deep this comparison could go. There's so much more meat on the bone with WW.

Likeability.

 

[Flint Marko]

So what I'm noticing is people love characters who are talkers.

DCEU Superman is a doer.

So is Wonder Woman. So there must be more to it.

 

[Sleiek]

Of course she is. What I am noticing is people only understand motivations from "talking" characters and refuse to see it in characters who are doers but no talkers.

 

[Bearzooka]

 

[Boy Scout]

So what I'm noticing is people love characters who are talkers.

DCEU Superman is a doer.

You need a healthy mix of both. If a character only spoke of their motivations for an entire film and did nothing to act on their ambitions, you probably wouldn't take them seriously. Conversely, if they said nothing and limited themselves to acting and reacting, you would likely find them difficult to relate to, even if you found their actions noble.

 

[The Guard]

Of course she is. What I am noticing is people only understand motivations from "talking" characters and refuse to see it in characters who are doers but no talkers.

It's because people don't want to do the mental work, they want characters who spell out what is going on and how the characters and stories themselves are evolving. It's pretty much why exposition is rampant in film now.

I blame the third act of Batman Begins.

 

[The Guard]

You need a healthy mix of both. If a character only spoke of their motivations for an entire film and did nothing to act on their ambitions. you probably wouldn't take them seriously. Conversely, if they said nothing, but constantly acted and reacted, you would likely find them difficult to relate to and connect with, if you found their actions noble.

This is also true.

 

[The Joker]

It's because people don't want under written, poorly developed characters.

Fixed.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

So what I'm noticing is people love characters who are talkers.

DCEU Superman is a doer.

Don't you mean DCEU Superman is dour?

 

[MbJ]

Again, look how it comes back to anyone who disliked the Snyder movies being too stupid or lazy to appreciate them, with the added implication people only like Wonder Woman because it's more simplistic or you don't have to think hard during it.

Remember that post I made about how some people just refuse to admit people might possibly have legitimate reasons for disliking something they like?

 

[DrCosmic]

Of course she is. What I am noticing is people only understand motivations from "talking" characters and refuse to see it in characters who are doers but no talkers.

I think part if it is because human beings talk. Not only that, they do reveal things about their character from speech, unless they have some experience that explains why they are more taciturn than Batman. Without such an explanation, then a character just being a doer feels like lazy writing instead of character development. Also, it's hard to discern motivations from Superman's actions because he neglects so many things that the film seems to be trying to say is important without explanation in his actions or dialogue on his neglect of these supposedly important things.

I'm so glad we have Wonder Woman now, to really just shut down all these deflections from the weaknesses of BvS.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Wanting a character who talks and is happy is fine as long as people stop pretending that everyone dislikes DCEU Superman.

 

[DrCosmic]

Wanting a character who talks and is happy is fine as long as people stop pretending that everyone dislikes DCEU Superman.

I don't think pointing out the flaws and inconsistencies in the portrayal ignores that people like him. Snyder isn't the only person with Snyder's sensibilities. I enjoyed MOS immensely on a second viewing. I also think that wanting 'talking' and 'happy' are really just shorthands for asking for a good character, and the character being well done when talking and happy in it's 75 year history.

 

[StormC]

Lack of talking was the big problem for me with Clark in Man Of Steel. He's such a passive character and the dialogue written for him was as generic as possible.

As a screenwriter, I believe strongly in dialogue, and if you have a character that doesn't talk (much or at all), you damn better well sell that character in every which other way.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

I don't think pointing out the flaws and inconsistencies in the portrayal ignores that people like him. Snyder isn't the only person with Snyder's sensibilities. I enjoyed MOS immensely on a second viewing. I also think that wanting 'talking' and 'happy' are really just shorthands for asking for a good character, and the character being well done when talking and happy in it's 75 year history.

I wasn't talking about you at all, I'm sorry for the confusion. I actually agreed with what you were saying and was trying to contrast that with other people who insist that this Superman sux and Snyder "doesn't get Superman" and call for a reboot.

 

[Marvin]

Too many protagonists that don't talk for me to get behind this need for diag. It's clearly a preference masquerading as an actual flaw. Like needing villains to be threatening. Fine if one doesn't like one way or the other, not actually a rule.

I agree that generally people want/need to get behind their protagonists motivations so they can root for their success(or failure). Easier to discern these types of clear goals in some films more than others. That being said, I honestly find it hard to believe that a person can't detect and get behind superman's goals in these two films. I know kids who can and cheer for said goals. Even the act of wanting to shut down batman is...active.

Still, the film sits at like 94% the highest ever. I'm not sure it's better than all these other films that didn't get 94.... Still I think if dc keeps making stuff like this(quality aside) they will avoid the 26 percents from now on. I'm reading around here dc made their first marvel film, kinda interesting, maybe people are meaning quality. As all things I'll judge for myself. Very curious about jla though. There is clearly a winning formula in this approach.

 

[Sleiek]

I think part if it is because human beings talk. Not only that, they do reveal things about their character from speech, unless they have some experience that explains why they are more taciturn than Batman. Without such an explanation, then a character just being a doer feels like lazy writing instead of character development. Also, it's hard to discern motivations from Superman's actions because he neglects so many things that the film seems to be trying to say is important without explanation in his actions or dialogue on his neglect of these supposedly important things.

Human beings talk? How many people have you ever met in life?

Trust me, not everyone talks, and those who don't talk have a lot to offer.

It's because people don't want to do the mental work, they want characters who spell out what is going on and how the characters and stories themselves are evolving. It's pretty much why exposition is rampant in film now.

Exactly. I like to discover their motivations by myself, not spoon fed to me all the time. You can spoon feed effectively sometimes, but not all the time. Just in my opinion, I see motivations much clearly from observing their actions rather than them explaining it out.

 

[TripleJ]

Lack of talking was the big problem for me with Clark in Man Of Steel. He's such a passive character and the dialogue written for him was as generic as possible.

As a screenwriter, I believe strongly in dialogue, and if you have a character that doesn't talk (much or at all), you damn better well sell that character in every which other way.

He was a passive character, but wasn't that the point? BvS was exploring the effect of his existence, his actions upon the world, and how the world reacts. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

 

[Sleiek]

Don't you mean DCEU Superman is dour?

Nope, I meant exactly what I wrote.

do·er
ˈdo͞oər/

noun
the person who does something.
"the doer of the action"

synonyms: performer, perpetrator, executor, accomplisher, agent
"the doer of unspeakable deeds"

a person who acts rather than merely talking or thinking.
"I'm a doer, not a moaner"

synonyms: worker, organizer, man/woman of action; More

 

[writer0327]

He was a passive character, but wasn't that the point? BvS was exploring the effect of his existence, his actions upon the world, and how the world reacts. At least, that's how I interpreted it.

That's how I interpreted it too, but I think most wanted a different Superman, as a fully realized hero, not a false protagonist used to explore the world Snyder built.

 

[Osiris-Rex]

dour

adjective:
Relentlessly severe, stern, or gloomy in manner or appearance.

synonyms:
stern, unsmiling, unfriendly, severe, forbidding, gruff, surly, grim, sullen, solemn, austere, stony

 

[Sleiek]

 

[StormC]

A single scene does not a character make.

 

[MydnightPhoenix]

Well Sleiek pull out the picture of the dozens of times Clark smiled in MoS. Its been 4yrs and people still don't get it.