New Avengers vs. Old Avengers: Pros and Cons

[hippie_hunter]

and DD should never join a team. Closest he's ever been is the "Marvel Knights" and that was terrible.

Team-ups? yes. Join a team? no

He would fit better with the Avengers than f**king Wolverine dammit

 

[Varient]

Fanboys are getting their wish with TWO Bendis written Avengers titles?

No.

And, um, we're ALL fanboys here, so using that as a slang term on this board is a serious lapse of intelligence.

I am proud to be called both a fanboy and a geek.
(I admit "nerd" doesn't bother me either.)

It doesn't stop me from using the label - though in the future I will add and Emp "SOME", "A FEW", or "TOO MANY" when I use the word.

I apologize for offending you.

 

[Varient]

My issue is that the Avengers always showcased people who werent seen else where. Yes you could pick up a Cap book or an IM book but if you like Hawkeye Avengers was the only place for his stories. Now you take Spider-man and Wolverine and throw them in this book....who appear in everyone's book. As an Avengers fan the very concept was changed. If im a fan of 24 do I not have the right to complain if Kiefer Sutherland is replaced by Lindsay Lohan because she is a big draw. My other issue is that everyone else who was ever an Avenger was sent to limbo. What were Wasp,Giantman,Wonderman,Tigra,Falcon,Sersi and the countless others doing up until now.

Okay,.. that is a good point the Avengers as a showcase for little seen heroes that have followings.

But I'm sorry,... Both Spiderman and Cage were a long time coming as being Avengers.
And Spiderwoman had dropped off the face of 616 playing private dick,.. ( no pun intended.)

And While Ida prefered Stingray or machIV over Ironman as the tech head,... I can't complain that they keep something of the old guard in place.


I admit and accept a strong dislike for Ironman,.... Smart guy who keeps making stupid mistakes,.....

Peace.

 

[Varient]

It is quite obvious that Marvel is trying to go with the JLA route with the Avengers in New Avengers, but there is just a much better way of doing it if you ask me.

Keep Iron Man, Captain America, and Spider-Man. They are some of Marvel's biggest characters and would be needed for the JLA-esqe style of having the big names.

Put in the Hulk. Not only is he a big name, but he also extremely powerful. I bet that the Avengers wouldn't have trouble with freaking ninajs with the Hulk on the team. Plus he was a founding member of the team too, so he does have a past with them despite being rather short.

Put in Thor, not only is he also a founding member but he is also one of Marvel's biggest names. And like the Hulk, he is also extremely powerful.

Put in Yellowjacket (or whatever name Hank Pym wants to use) and the Wasp. Again, these guys have had a long history with the Avengers and were founding members.

Daredevil, put him in because he's a big name and he kicks extreme ass.

With a team like this you have a variation of powers. A god. An incredibly smart man with technological powerful armor. A super soldier. A man who can do anything a spider can. A man who can grow. A woman who can shrink. A not so golly green giant with incredible strength. A man with superior senses and is one of the best fighters in the 616. Yes, there are still street fighters (Captain America, Spider-Man, Daredevil), at least there is some power variation with JLA-esque big names on the team

I respectfully disagree.

Peace.

 

[TheCorpulent1]

(Smile)
Make sense?

We shouldn't go there.
Sense would be never including a trick shooter with a criminal record who started out fighting one of your founding members.
Sense would be never accepting a "machine" who was originally designed to kill the avengers supposidly built by an enemy, (ultron),
Sense would be not accepting a man given powers to beat avengers + thor who tried hard enough to die.
Sense would be not letting a member handle heavy equiptment cause he was a drunk.
Sense would be throwing the wife beater in Jail
Sense would be the three tokens refusing to join
Sense would mean resolving issues the first time instead of Infinite Ultron (for example)


Sense would be seriously going back to basics,... a group comes together and fights something that one hero can't combat.
They go through a shake down period.
They then get down to brass tacks where the rubber meets the road.


Still no heat because this is moot,... New avengers as complained about is over - but we can't put "sense" to a team that has gone thru the stuff/history the avengers have.

Peace.

Some of those have merit, but not the "resolving issues the first time" comment. Superhero comics are a neverending, serialized medium. As a result, villains keep coming back. That's the way the medium works, so you can't really fault the old Avengers for that unless you're prepared to fault literally every comic book character ever for the same.

As for accepting reformed criminals, it's been done all over as well. Wolverine was an unrepentant murderer for a while on several occasions, but Alpha Flight, the X-Men, and now the Avengers have all welcomed him with open arms on multiple occasions. Black Panther, Black Widow, and Spider-Woman have all joined the Avengers under false pretenses in order to spy on them, but they also all proved themselves and were welcomed to stay. There's nothing insensible about giving people second chances.

 

[The Question]

yes, but while superman's duking it out with Darkseid, Green Arrow's running around his fortress disarming his Doomsday machine, or whatever

Explain to me how Ollie knows enough about New Genisis/Apokolipse technology to dismantle it safely. And for that matter, who's to say Darkseid has a machine? He could simply show up with a **** load of parademons and his inner circle.

 

[Dwarf lord]

Pro for New Avengers - The makeup is more like Marvel, and less like DC. The Old Avengers seemed to be the key component of the Marvel Universe that was still epic-super-heroey. Luke Cage, Peter Parker, and Carol Danvers, among the others, bring the team to a real-person familiarity that many feel superheroes now need.

Heh. THat's actually my con for New Avengers and Pro for Classic Avengers

 

[Varient]

Some of those have merit, but not the "resolving issues the first time" comment. Superhero comics are a neverending, serialized medium. As a result, villains keep coming back. That's the way the medium works, so you can't really fault the old Avengers for that unless you're prepared to fault literally every comic book character ever for the same.

As for accepting reformed criminals, it's been done all over as well. Wolverine was an unrepentant murderer for a while on several occasions, but Alpha Flight, the X-Men, and now the Avengers have all welcomed him with open arms on multiple occasions. Black Panther, Black Widow, and Spider-Woman have all joined the Avengers under false pretenses in order to spy on them, but they also all proved themselves and were welcomed to stay. There's nothing insensible about giving people second chances.

On your first point ,.. I take it back,... I guess you can't resolve stuff for good.
As for the second,... these same Avengers (old) had issue with the Thunderbolts because of the criminal background. In the real world I couldn't "trust" the Vision or Simon Williams and I would think it silly to have someone w/o innate powers and low tech running along with folk who can change size, have invulnearbility, Fly , and bend Bend Omnium in their bare hands.

And "Spying" on a superteam can't be a crime when you have groups like Shield around.

 

[Varient]

Explain to me how Ollie knows enough about New Genisis/Apokolipse technology to dismantle it safely. And for that matter, who's to say Darkseid has a machine? He could simply show up with a **** load of parademons and his inner circle.

he spent part of his year away at the Apokolipse branch of Microskills?

 

[Willowhugger]

Spiderman brought out the jokester side of Tony.

"Vegas baby!"
"I'm married."
"Then I have nothing to talk about..."

I'm an Old Avengers fan (which apparently makes me some kind of pariah) whom likes New Avengers. I may not have like Avengers Disassembled but it's not like that Scott Lang's death didn't set off Cassie in a good role. I also know that the "New Avengers" are just the Old Avengers with a new lineup.

Thor and Hawkeye will both be back. Hell, VISION HAS BEEN GOING ON MISSIONS WITH THEM. This despite being a "young Avenger"

So with Iron Man, Cap, Vision, and Warbird....I'm hardpressed to not call it the Avengers.

 

[The Cleric]

doesnt matter if the team would eventually be broken up

 

[Sentry2005]

Spiderman brought out the jokester side of Tony.

"Vegas baby!"
"I'm married."
"Then I have nothing to talk about..."

I'm an Old Avengers fan (which apparently makes me some kind of pariah) whom likes New Avengers. I may not have like Avengers Disassembled but it's not like that Scott Lang's death didn't set off Cassie in a good role. I also know that the "New Avengers" are just the Old Avengers with a new lineup.

Thor and Hawkeye will both be back. Hell, VISION HAS BEEN GOING ON MISSIONS WITH THEM. This despite being a "young Avenger"

So with Iron Man, Cap, Vision, and Warbird....I'm hardpressed to not call it the Avengers.

Hey, I don't hate New Avengers as it stands, I just hate that a new generation of fans will call this as 'their' Avengers roster, when really, it doesn't deserve to be called the Avengers. If it were a book by any other name, it wouldn't be this harshly criticised, but because it has the Avengers name, it will always be looked on as one man's fan boy wet dream attempt to create a Marvel JLA.

 

[Dread]

I'll bite.

NEW AVENGERS vs. OLD AVENGERS: PRO'S AND CONS

New Avengers:

Pros:

- Hot, popular, A-list writer. Like or dislike Bendis, that's precisely what he is to Marvel currently. Their #1 ace.

- Great sales. NEW AVENGERS is quite possibly Marvel's best selling ONGOING title. Other top sellers are often mini's.

- Like it or hate it since DISASSEMBLED, this has sparked an editorial interest in Marvel Heroes and the General MU, which for many years had been neglected in favor on focusing on the X-Men franchise. Save for Thor, CAPTAIN AMERICA and IRON MAN got relaunches that, latenesses aside are selling well. Plus you have to add YOUNG AVENGERS, the best new Marvel title since RUNAWAYS that never would have come to be without NA and it's premise. Compare this to the late 90's when all that most MU titles (that weren't Spider-books) did was react to or imitate whatever was the crossover at the X-books.

- Better access to new fans. Whether because of a new #1 or some of the bigger characters, that's what some claim is true. Who am I to agrue?

- More popular characters. Vision, Hawkeye, Wonder Man, etc. are all cool characters, but none of them are going to sell a Top 10 book by themselves these days. Love it or hate it, Spider-Man & Wolverine are characters who can pull decent sales even in books where their writers/artists are subpar or even terrible. They're Marvel's Top 2 characters in terms of fan and public popularity. And from statements made in a featurette from ULTIMATE AVENGERS, it's clear to me that getting these two on the Avengers was Joe Q's goal for revamping them in '04, regardless of who was writing it or how they got there. Blame Bendis for the rest of the roster if you like, but these two were locks from the planning stages, methinks.

- MORE EDITORIAL/PROMOTIONAL SUPPORT. When was the last time the core Avengers title was embraced, nurtured, promoted properly, etc.? The Old Avengers didn't have that since, argueably, when Busiek and Perez relaunched volume 3 in the late 90's. Meanwhile, every issue of NA is treated as a huge event, that you can't miss.

- Advancing some B-Listers. Comments about Bendis' fetishes aside, folks like Jessica Drew and Luke Cage were still B to C List Marvel characters until Bendis took a shining to them and ampped them up (although Cage got started on ALIAS and PULSE). Now both are popular enough to be getting ESSENTIALS volumes. Spider-Woman even got a mini and sole status to that name again, being the FIRST heroine to take that mantle.

- The consept of Drew being a double agent for HYDRA and SHIELD with the NA in the middle is actually interesting.

- It is always at the forefront of the Major Marvel events, whereas past incarnations of the book in later years were just reactionary tie-ins.

CONS:

- Bendis' continues with predictable juvenile dialogue in which grown people, hardened maniacs, cops, wizards, mutants, aliens, etc. all sound like lippy 11 year olds. The SAME lippy 11 year olds. This works in USM because most of the cast are teenagers, but it becomes glaring in NA.

- Despite the fact that they're argueably the top draw characters, Spider-Man and Wolverine have been almost useless in many of the stories. Spider-Man at least is sometimes used for comic relief, some science knowledge or some "battle experience" (like against Electro or entering the Savage Land). Wolverine, by contrast, made his biggest contribution in his debut issue on the title by making Drew look tough by "owning" him (something NO HERO is allowed to do in Marvel these days; not even Silver Surfer with the Infinity Gauntlet would be allowed to beat Wolverine these days), and ever since he's done surprisingly little.

- The team itself is a mismash that hardly assembles. In almost 2 years worth of stories, I can recall the entire team assembling maybe twice, and that includes the Annual.

- The team, full of very experienced heroes like Cap, Iron Man and Spider-Man, are almost inept and useless when it comes to a major battle. Surprisingly, they've had very little of them. No invasions by aliens, no amassing of the Masters of Evil, even Ultron decided he'd rather fight the Runaways than THIS team. That says a lot. Out of all of them, he continues to assume that 616 Spidey is the same helpless, useless, inept superhero who needs his GIRLFRIENDS to save him in battle like he is in USM.

- Bendis' writing style is awkward with mainstream team heroics, which he seems uninterested in. Most of the team's battles have the team not even claiming victory, but wading into aimless violence until some outside force, be it SHIELD or Daisy "Unbeatable Female" Johnson, came in, effortlessly solved the problem, and then talked down to the heroes. This happened with Sauron, sort of happened with the Hand/Silver Samurai, and it occurred again with The Collective/Magneto.

- Lackluster villians, all of them. Electro was a wuss, Sauron and Samurai are X-Men villians (at times degenerated into Wolverine villians, which he wasn't around to fight half the time), and the Collective was an empty plot device that served just to complicate stuff.

- Digging up the wounds of HOM/Xorneto. Fans almost universally claim HOM was underwhelming and that Xorneto makes no sense, but because Bendis was involved in writing much of that stuff with DISASSEMBLED and HOM, that means it's part of HIS continuity, which trumps all others, which means he gets to revisit it again, and again, and again. It'd be like if the "armored Cap" years kept getting dug up, homaged, revisited, and complicated just because that writer who invented it now was on CAP again. Please, just let HOM/Xorneto/Wanda-as-a-plot-device end. Come up with a new trick for once in your life, Bendis. Lord knows you can't do it in USM, at least try harder here.

- I'm going to say this, and it's a LACK OF TEAM COHESION AND CONNECTION. People say, "oh, but they interact like real people", but they don't, they interact like children half the time. Why aren't they working on team-training? Cap, Iron Man and Wolverine all come from teams where that stuff is essential. Why isn't Spider-Man talking to Cage about his life's experiences trying to be a hero, a husband, and even, once, a father? Bendis is ballsey enough to kill off C-Listers, but he's still one of the gutless cowards afraid of bringing up that dreaded "spider-baby", huh? Because LORD knows Joe Q would fire his #1 ace on the spot, right, and hand DC their edge over that, right? Why aren't Drew and Logan interacting like friends and hanging out more, considering they used to work together, for YEARS, in the early run of WOLVERINE's first solo ongoing? I could go on about the many, many ways this team could work out and bring about more of that "family/team cohesion" that folks loved about the Old Avengers if only they didn't spend much of their time together in decompressed battles or bickering like junior high students.

- The concept of Drew being a double agent for HYDRA and SHIELD with the NA in the middle is actually interesting, but like many of Bendis' ideas, it's fascinating initially and then has been ignored or bungled. I swear he'd make a better editor than writer, simply because he DOES have some great ideas, just seems to bungle the execution of a lot of them.

- The book's Top selling status, with their #1 writer, means that it can get away with more errors, mistakes, and so on without fear of reprisal.

- Like many Marvel books, it chooses to date itself terribly via pop culture and topical subject matter, while simeltanously the editorial department poo-poo's past Marvel regimes as "simplistic", failing to see how they repeat that history. They simply are more pretentious about it.

- A parade of different artists means that at least 1/3rd of all of the issues have shipped late, historically. Which by today's standards isn't so bad.

- Like many Marvel books, it is almost ashamed of anything that happened before 2001 and is ashamed to call itself a "superhero" book, and so it rarely delves into that stuff in favor of the rather tired plot device of "conspiracy". And to those who say, "well, overblown supervillian battles are equally tired", I'd retort, "but not as equally pretentious". Granted, Bendis himself is not the best writer for that kind of thing.

- Has allowed Bendis to gain more of a status as a "mainstream Marvel writer" that allows him to write the year's event at times or even launch a book about the Old Avengers, when he clearly is better suited in solo hero books or crime noir (or combos of both, like DAREDEVIL) than he ever has been, and ever will be, on a mainstream superhero book. And that is a shame because I'd rather read him where he is more comfortable, because he produces far better work. Even mediocre, predictable issues of USM are sometimes better than NA in story quality.

- Provided a run that has allowed Bendis to butcher, either narratively and/or physically, a lot of Marvel characters.

- After going about a complicated explaination about why the old Avengers had to "disassemble", made Cap & Iron Man look like ******s by re-assembling a team with far less familiarity and far more unstable members (Sentry and Wolverine have both provided huge threats to the world or national security, and Drew is an outright spy).

- Making a big deal about Ronin, who when all is said and done was merely a guest star. Ms. Marvel's been more of a team mate than Ronin.

OLD AVENGERS:

Pros:

- Launched by Stan Lee & Jack Kirby in 1963, it was Marvel's response to the success of JLA (or capitlizing on what they'd achieved with FANTASTIC FOUR) as well as a way to have various superheroes who weren't in their own ongoings (but rather appearing in anthologies) to star together on one stage. Historically, THIS is what the Avengers usually were; NOT a collection of "Marvel's Top Characters", because even by 1963, there were far more popular characters than Wasp or Giant-Man. AVENGERS was where a few top characters would lead some B and C listers into becoming more well known and veteran heroes while bonding eventually. Had THE AVENGERS been seen as merely a parade of A-List characters, then Spider-Man would have joined the team GENERATIONS ago, but never did because it didn't fit the Avengers, and it didn't fit his character appeal.

- Has a parade of top talented people and runs, of which there are too many to list.

- Has that 40 years of team history to build upon for ore for new stories, something the NA doesn't have and doesn't wish to attempt.

- Provided a steady fanbase that sun-drenched superheroism that they craved, battling the sort of threats you rarely saw in other books.

- Allowed more fans to have a wider knowledge of the MU as well as to be introduced to great characters they may not have known well. Despite NA's success, it is simply providing "more of the same" with Wolvie & Spidey.

- For most of it's run, issues cost less than $2.99. What? It's true.

- Collected stories sometimes age a lot better and provided more classic storylines that today are homaged, not repeated. Even later stuff like the Busiek/Perez run of the late 90's provided top fodder for future creators.

- Providing the MU with some really decent villians, many of whom still float about as either Thunderbolts or constant threats (Ultron).

CONS:

- Also had some cheeseball elements of the times. When AVENGERS was good, it was great, but when it was HAMMY, it was bad, almost to the point of being unreadable.

- Was neglected for a good long time after the X-MEN shot to stardom and spent many years in the 90's copying them, right down to wearing stupid jackets. It didn't always get the best talent, often was ignored in promotional material, and ended it's run before DISASSEMBLED with Austen, only one of the most reviled and unpopular Marvel writers since Mackie FINALLY left the Spider-books. It was allowed to hit rock bottom without anything to stop it until DISASSEMBLED, when the grand solution was, "take our rising star writer and an artist hot off ULTIMATE X-MEN, and tell them to go nuts".

- The sheer amount of characters who were either former members or "reserve members" sometimes reached the point of ridiculousness. You'd have a harder time finding a Marvel hero who WASN'T either asked to join, once joined, or was a part-timer. You could argue the same for the JLA, of course, but two wrongs don't make a right. That takes a little away from the "veteran" members.

- Kang always had a stupid costume. There, I said it. Galactus in a tutu would look scarier.

 

[Sentry2005]

Shut up Dread... you made the page long

 

[Willowhugger]

Hey, I don't hate New Avengers as it stands, I just hate that a new generation of fans will call this as 'their' Avengers roster, when really, it doesn't deserve to be called the Avengers. If it were a book by any other name, it wouldn't be this harshly criticised, but because it has the Avengers name, it will always be looked on as one man's fan boy wet dream attempt to create a Marvel JLA.

Why doesn't it deserve to be called the Avengers though? Also, if this were the "new Champion" i wouldn't have picked it up. I wanted to see Spiderman as an Avengers. I wanted to see him as part of the "World's Mightiest Heroes" and Marvel's A-team where he belonged. I'm not ashamed that was the hook that brought me back to a book that I had abandoned.

 

[Willowhugger]

Shut up Dread... you made the page long

I laud him for saying it all. It's good stuff.

;-)

 

[Sentry2005]

No, yeah, Dread makes great points, and I agree with him... just... he made the page so long

 

[TheCorpulent1]

On your first point ,.. I take it back,... I guess you can't resolve stuff for good.
As for the second,... these same Avengers (old) had issue with the Thunderbolts because of the criminal background. In the real world I couldn't "trust" the Vision or Simon Williams and I would think it silly to have someone w/o innate powers and low tech running along with folk who can change size, have invulnearbility, Fly , and bend Bend Omnium in their bare hands.

And "Spying" on a superteam can't be a crime when you have groups like Shield around.

Not all of the Avengers took issue with the Thunderbolts. Those who did, however, did so because these were hardened criminals who'd met them in battle time and time again. Atlas once fought Luke Cage over the Power Man name. Baron Zemo had tried to kill both Cap and the Avengers on numerous occasions. They'd given the Avengers more than ample reason to distrust them. The Vision didn't. He appeared on the scene, fought the Avengers once because of his programming, and then overcame his programming to spare them. The Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were duped by Magneto into fighting the X-Men on a handful of occasions and later came to realize that they didn't believe in terrorizing humanity. Hawkeye was nothing more than a small-time crook who was lucky enough to have Cap take a chance on him. These were people who were lost or confused and had made mistakes, but they were certainly no Baron Zemo. There's a clear distinction there and, as Karolina pointed out in the last issue of Runaways, heroes take things on a case-by-case basis.

The objection to normal people running with super-powered ones is as old as the oldest superhero team-up, and it's just something that some people feel one way about while others feel another way. Regardless of opinions, however, normal people do serve on teams with powered ones all over the industry, so at some point it was simply accepted as a conceit of the superhero genre. Besides, both the old Avengers and the New Avengers are guilty of it anyway, so it's a moot point in this context.

Whether spying is a crime or not, it's still a far greater breach of trust in the here and now than someone's background, criminal or otherwise. I appreciate that SHIELD does it all the time, but SHIELD isn't serving on the same team and living in the same quarters as the Avengers or asking them to put their lives in its hands every time they go out on a mission. The Black Panther, Spider-Woman, et al. are. Personally, I'd consider it a much bigger problem to find that one of your trusted members is spying on you than to find that someone had a past involving minor larceny.

 

[Dread]

I laud him for saying it all. It's good stuff.

;-)

Thanks.

 

[Sentry2005]

Why doesn't it deserve to be called the Avengers though? Also, if this were the "new Champion" i wouldn't have picked it up. I wanted to see Spiderman as an Avengers. I wanted to see him as part of the "World's Mightiest Heroes" and Marvel's A-team where he belonged. I'm not ashamed that was the hook that brought me back to a book that I had abandoned.

Because, quite simply, they aren't the Avengers. Seriously, have them take on Kang. Please. I beg you. I'd laugh my arse off. Hey, lets have them take on Count Nefaria, as that too would be HILARIOUS. They AREN'T the worlds mightiest heroes... it's pretty much that which puts me off of this team being called Avengers.

Now is time to quote another hype member:

Thats your own interpretation. I just get tired of people bascially using a tagline to criticse a book despite previous weak incarnations. (when will we see people complain that FF isn't the worlds greatest comic magazine?)

The FF may not be the worlds greatest comic magazine, but that is due to the writing. The premise IS one of the all time greats; Me and my crime fighting family as we travel to alternate dimensions and argue as Galactus tries to eat the world... that is frickin' AMAZING. Unless i'm wrong, that is an truly original premise which even to this day is NOT being mimicked anywhere. The X-Men might live togeather, but they're not family. Thats what makes the FF so great, or should do, despite its writing.

The Avengers similarly shoud be the mightiest. "Boo hoo, wah wah, the team had weak line ups in the past, wah wah". Seriously, the single point of the Avengers was that they were formed to fight the enemies that no single one of them could fight. So, when was it that Electro became one of those foes? Sauron? NINJA'S!!! Obviously a man with combat training second to none, a man in an armour suit of 21st century technology and a guy with advanced warning on any attacks coming his way can't take ninja's...

What's that? These same people have tackled menaces such as Onslaught, Kang, Venom, et all? Oh wait.. they didn't want to cut lose and hurt the Ninja's... wait... what? Where in the name of Sam Hill does that make sense? If They wanted to take them down, they are more than capable of doing so without hurting the Ninja's.

I'm sorry if I can't buy the fact that a group who have trouble with Sauron and Electro should be called the Avengers. But they shouldn't. heaven help them if Ultron turns up. Because they would be screwed.

p.s. sorry Willowhugger... this rant isn't directed at you... it's just a rant

 

[Sentry2005]

Thanks.

Hey I agreed to... you just made the page long good points tho... you and your damned ability to get everything right

 

[Dread]

Hey I agreed to... you just made the page long good points tho... you and your damned ability to get everything right

I'm not ALWAYS right.

Don't worry, not all of my posts get that long. I usually make a long one to enter a topic and then they get shorter.

 

[Sentry2005]

No, but you're right an annoying amount of the time... stop it

 

[roach]

Oh wait.. they didn't want to cut lose and hurt the Ninja's... wait... what? Where in the name of Sam Hill does that make sense? If They wanted to take them down, they are more than capable of doing so without hurting the Ninja's.

not to forget that the Hand are a demon ninja clan whos lowest warriors disolve when defeated

 

[Sentry2005]

not to forget that the Hand are a demon ninja clan whos lowest warriors disolve when defeated

See, I didn't know that... that's ANOTHER reason why New Avengers can suck my left testicle... and if it doesn't say 'please sir I want some more', well i'll just stop buying it... i'm such a hypocrite