New Avengers vs. Old Avengers: Pros and Cons

[Willowhugger]

Oh and they also beat some U-Men.

I suppose the Pros of the New Avengers are...

1. The Young Avengers auxillary team.
2. Threats like the Wrecker and U-men are easier to make more serious.
3. Jarvis and Aunt May ;-)
4. Spiderman.
5. Wolverine restores the Captain America/Hawkeye distrust feel.
6. Miss Marvel returns
7. No Hank Pym (he's unwanted on any avengers team until the writers start writing him as a hero instead of psycho-jerk)
8. I like the SHIELD/Hydra conspiracy.
9. I like Avengers tower over Avengers mansion.
10. Tony Stark and Captain America are clearly the team's leaders instead of being a gathering of equals.
11. Jessica Jones as supporting cast is awesome.
12. Tony Stark-Spiderman is hilarious
13. The wolverine/mary jane joke.
14. The team is more New York based instead of being international.
15. Luke Cage adds an "everyman" feel to the book that is otherwise missing from it.
16. I enjoy the double agent Spiderwoman plot.
17. I do enjoy ninja plots. I just wished the Mandarin could have been snuck in at some point.
18. Seeing Jonah's hate of Spiderman trump Iron Man's diplomacy was excellent.
19. I like the arch-foe in Mariah Hill.
20. It's good to have a group that LIKES each other after the X-men disintegrated.

 

[Dread]

They beat the Hand as I recall.

Here's the history of the New Avengers as near as I can tell...

These are the moments I object to in the comic.

1. Defeated 50 or so villains the RAFT and kept them from escaping (Carnage killed).
2. Arrested Electro.
3. Defeated Sauron.
4. Got their asses kicked by the Thunderbolts. (Another moment of Hank Pym ass****)
5. Defeated a bunch of ninjas and lost Madame Hydra.
6. Defeated the Wrecker.
7. Destroyed the Void.
8. Killed The Collective/Xorn and lost Magneto.
9. Defeated the Super-Yelenatoid (a hideous waste of Black Widow's only supporting character)
10. Get Disassembled by the Civil War.

Now what am I missing?

1). Didn't 50 or more villians ESCAPE the Raft? You never hear of any villians the assembled heroes, who weren't a team yet, actually stopped. Aside for Carnage, who was ripped in half, and Purple Man, who Cage pummeled. Plus you had Spider-Man's total newb "ownage" in issue #2 which was probably THE worst issue of the series because it got maybe 3 or more character's powers wrong, from Count Nefaria to Carnage to Drew herself. It took almost a year for GIANT-SIZE SPIDER-WOMAN and subsequent issues of NA to iron out Drew's power fib, which I don't cheer Bendis for because ANYONE could come up with an explainable way to write out some error if given a few months or a year to do so. And it made Spider-Man look like a gutless, helpless wimp when he's not. And it wouldn't be the last time. But take Crossbones. Spider-Man kicks him in the face on-panel, and he goes down. Guess what? He escaped. Seen fighting in CAPTAIN AMERICA soon after. I will agree that "tracking down the escaped baddies" provided for a decent plot device for NA and other books, though. Quite a few villian battles from NEW WARRIORS to SPIDER-MAN: BREAKOUT did well with it.

2). Electro, alright, I'll give you, but he all but folded on the spot. Iron Man trapped him in a bubble and he got SO scared of an angry black man that he passed out. This being the same Electro who, during REVENGE OF THE SINISTER SIX was fully willing to take on the Hulk, who I'd say is far scarier than Luke Cage, even if he's "The Professor" that year. And after Millar had spent some time trying to "boost" him in MKSM that'd seen print maybe a few months prior. Call it an incredible waste of potential.

3). The New Avengers didn't defeat Sauron. They crash landed, got mangled by dinosaurs, stripped and captured by the Mutates, and then Wolverine was so stupid, he attacked Sauron and activated his powers. And then Sauron got dropped by SHIELD, who turned out to be the bad guys in that evil "conspiracy" way.

4). The Thunderbolt battle I don't count because I don't read THUNDERBOLTS and I was talking in strictly the NA main title, which is their OWN book and where you'd assume they'd win their own battles. Guest-appearences in other books are always shifty because the star of the book rarely loses to a guest. If we wanted to count this, then we should count about half the New Avengers getting spanked by "The Cloak Imposter" in RUNAWAYS. Between Nico magically putting Spider-Man to sleep, Molly socking Wolverine through a building and Cloak escaping from an embarassed Cap, they looked like rookies there. Oh, and the Cloak-Imposter got passed Cage and Spider-Woman rather easily.

5). The New Avengers failed to beat the Hand ninja because "the hotel room was cramped", which is utterly ******ed because I've seen Hand decent on Logan or Daredevil within bars or rooms and they went down in droves. It took a team consisting of Cap, Iron Man, Luke Cage, Spider-Man and Ronin/Echo TWO ENTIRE ISSUES to overcome generic Hand Ninja, a feat most solo heroes, including those assembled, could or had done in mere pages. Silver Samurai, a dude who's been beaten by Logan and Spider-Man solo, also is built as some big threat and manages to take a shot from Cage without any ill effect (much as how Murdock could take shots from Mr. Hyde and Carnage in NA #2 and barely lose his glasses). Then they let him go. Madam Hydra shows up and surrenders (in a nutshell) so she can keep Drew as a spy. She escapes. Heroes fail again.

6). Yes, they beat The Wrecker. Great fight. Those bits are my highlight from the regular, non-Annual series. Wrecker's power level was treated seriously, the team showed their inexperience without looking inept, and Drew did something creative to lead the rally to beat him. It was honest Avengers heroics with a little twist and it was great. More of that and I'd love the book.

7). They didn't beat the Void. They called in the X-Men, the Fantastic Four, Dr. Strange, Namor, and the Inhumans (or "the entire assembled Illimuntai, plus their respective teams") to fight The Void, and the real "psychic" work was done by Emma Frost. She, not the New Avengers, basically beat the Void.

8). The New Avengers failed to kill the Collective. They battled it and while they prevented Collective from trashing/killing more things to get to Genosha, SHIELD treated it as if the NA were mindlessly empowering him, and made them look like fools. Highlights include yet another Spidey unmasking and Agent Maria Hill actually looking LESS evil than someone else, in this case Pres. Bush (go figure) who instantly orders her to nuke the NA. The Collective merely turned out to be some incarnation of Xorneto who wanted to reempower Magneto. Magneto offered no resistance and BEGGED for someone to kill him, and none of the New Avengers did. Daisy Johnson, yet another "invincible, smug femm fatale with zero personality", offed him. Or rather TKO'd him and then his transport lift exploded, providing him good cover for a return.

9). The NEW AVENGERS SPECIAL, where the entire team actually assembles fully and fights an unabashed threat, is my favorite NA issue. The downside is that it makes Yelena Bellonova canon fodder for a fight scene, but I never read the WIDOW books and honestly, if you're surprised that Bendis would shamelessly kill a C-lister to make a story work, then you haven't paid attention to his writing. The man's fictional body count is rather staggering, only Geoff Johns in INFINITE CRISIS achieves more. And yes, they do defeat her. Thank god.

10). The team may get "Disassembled", but after 2 years and them barely fully meeting up, or managing to beat their enemies on their own, it gets hard to care as much as I should. It's like watching a Fantasy Football team disassemble.

 

[Dread]

Very true. Way I see it, Rhino should be a choice mercenary. Everyone wants to hire him because he can hold off bassically anything. Not a criminal mastermind, but fully capable off an entire SWAT team and most pesky costumes crime fighters while his cohorts make off with the goods.

That's not bad. He also needs to get out of NY sometime. But that's a problem of every supervillian. Go to Oregon and they could OWN the entire state. But they insist on staying in NY, and getting beaten by Spider-Man or Punisher.

Rhino SHOULD be a challenge, but instead he's become a comic relief and some generic action device that writers have used to have SOME random battle occur to lead off an issue.

Not sure. And really, I always liked the wrecking crew. They're basically a gang of petty theives who one day got god-like strength and invlunerability.

I like them too. But Juggernaut basically had the same schtick in terms of powers and he hasn't become nearly as whip-able as the Wrecking Crew has. I'm just saying they should be more than just falling over themselves like Bebop and Rocksteady. NA was one of the rare books to take Wrecker seriously, and it was great. I want to see more of it.

 

[Darthphere]

Oh and they also beat some U-Men.

I suppose the Pros of the New Avengers are...

1. The Young Avengers auxillary team.
2. Threats like the Wrecker and U-men are easier to make more serious.
3. Jarvis and Aunt May ;-)
4. Spiderman.
5. Wolverine restores the Captain America/Hawkeye distrust feel.
6. Miss Marvel returns
7. No Hank Pym (he's unwanted on any avengers team until the writers start writing him as a hero instead of psycho-jerk)
8. I like the SHIELD/Hydra conspiracy.
9. I like Avengers tower over Avengers mansion.
10. Tony Stark and Captain America are clearly the team's leaders instead of being a gathering of equals.
11. Jessica Jones as supporting cast is awesome.
12. Tony Stark-Spiderman is hilarious
13. The wolverine/mary jane joke.
14. The team is more New York based instead of being international.
15. Luke Cage adds an "everyman" feel to the book that is otherwise missing from it.
16. I enjoy the double agent Spiderwoman plot.
17. I do enjoy ninja plots. I just wished the Mandarin could have been snuck in at some point.
18. Seeing Jonah's hate of Spiderman trump Iron Man's diplomacy was excellent.
19. I like the arch-foe in Mariah Hill.
20. It's good to have a group that LIKES each other after the X-men disintegrated.

There goes the Earth's Mightiest Heroes title.

Please people, stop grouping the Young Avengers with the New Avengers, Thank you.

 

[The Question]

That's not bad. He also needs to get out of NY sometime. But that's a problem of every supervillian. Go to Oregon and they could OWN the entire state. But they insist on staying in NY, and getting beaten by Spider-Man or Punisher.

Rhino SHOULD be a challenge, but instead he's become a comic relief and some generic action device that writers have used to have SOME random battle occur to lead off an issue.


I like them too. But Juggernaut basically had the same schtick in terms of powers and he hasn't become nearly as whip-able as the Wrecking Crew has. I'm just saying they should be more than just falling over themselves like Bebop and Rocksteady. NA was one of the rare books to take Wrecker seriously, and it was great. I want to see more of it.

Here's how I see it happening. Rhino moves to Chicago and sets up shop as a mercenary for hire with the mob. Maybe a few of Spidey and Daredevil's other less popular villains like The Shocker and Stilt Man tag along. Instead of making smash and grab robberies, they play it smart. Stay under the radar. Offer their services as theives and backup for local criminal types.


With the Wrecking Crew, I like what they started in Runaways. Having them be some of the criminals who go to California and try to take over now that the Pride is gone. They should take over a bunch of street gangs in southern California and start running the place, pimp smacking any cops or heroes of the vigilante pursuasion who come their way.

 

[Willowhugger]

I can't really argue with much of that because I think a large part of the storyline was the fact that the Avengers were being established as powerful but not flawless. That's a major point of the drama but a couple of points I will point out.

1. Only about half of the Raft's prisoners' escaped, which I tend to think of as a major win for the Avengers rather than a failure. While 50 supervillains escaped, about fifty DID NOT. It's a sign of how good they are really.

2. Electro usually needs a supercharge to win and he was trying to get his girl away. It was the perfect crime and he got caught, I didn't see a problem with that.

3. The Avengers dropped the bad guys and were about to rescue all the slaves of the Savage Land when Shield killed all of their own men along with the slaves in order to cover up their tracks.

4. Well it was embarrassing and it was arranged by Hank Pym because he was ticked off that the Avengers didn't invite him back.

5. The Silver Samurai is always of debatable criminal status in Japan. He's a former superhero there after all and had been given political asylum by Japan. They nevertheless managed what no one else in history did and took several dozen Hand assassins alive. It WAS a pointless fight since it wasn't the Avengers who took them all down but Iron Man.

6. Nothing to add.

7. Well the Sentry was the one whom tossed him in the sun, so that counts.

8. The Sentry also was the one to toss Xorneto into the sun.

9. Agreed.

10. Well I hope it doesn't destroy the team utterly because I like the team as is.

Some further points to add.

11. The Avengers took down some of the U-Men in Spiderman: Breakout. It was really just Spidey, America, and Iron Man. Some of them got away but they nevertheless had some pretty good fights there and a few of the lesser crooks got taken back to the Raft.

12. In Iron Man's latest story arc, the Avengers also stop another Prison break and some terrorists.

13. Iron Man, Jessica Jones, and Captain America help defeat Kang but that's more a guest starring since Jessica isn't even a full member of the team.

14. The full New Avengers show up to beat up some Kree and Skrulls in the attack to capture Teddy.

 

[Willowhugger]

There goes the Earth's Mightiest Heroes title.

Please people, stop grouping the Young Avengers with the New Avengers, Thank you.

Earth doesn't exist except for New York and parts of California with the occasional Exotic East. Stan Lee could have told you that.

And why shouldn't we? They were created on the New Avengers watch, they were accepted by the New Avengers, and they team up with the New Avengers.

 

[Darthphere]

Earth doesn't exist except for New York and parts of California with the occasional Exotic East. Stan Lee could have told you that.

And why shouldn't we? They were created on the New Avengers watch, they were accepted by the New Avengers, and they team up with the New Avengers.

Except, they have nothing to do with New Avengers. Duh!

 

[Willowhugger]

Except, they have nothing to do with New Avengers. Duh!

Except for being their auxillary team. Like the Teen Titans and Justice League.

 

[Darthphere]

Except for being their auxillary team. Like the Teen Titans and Justice League.

Are you ****ing serious? The Titans and JLA are two different organizations, temaing up from time to time doesnt make the Titans an auxilliary team. Read Teen titans #7.

 

[Willowhugger]

Are you ****ing serious? The Titans and JLA are two different organizations, temaing up from time to time doesnt make the Titans an auxilliary team. Read Teen titans #7.

I mean ORIGINALLY.

Sheesh. They even had a member of the JLA on hand at all times in the early years.

 

[Darthphere]

I mean ORIGINALLY.

Sheesh. They even had a member of the JLA on hand at all times in the early years.

Ok, but that doesnt make the YA auxilliary to the New Avengers, thats ridiculous, they were only accepted by them at the end of their first series. It doesnt mean the New Avengers created them, formed them or found the YA, since from the beginning the YA didnt want anything to do with the grownups.

 

[Vanguard07]

To me the NA is alright. Writing off some of their fights due to inexperience is kinda shady to me but I let it slide cause I'm enjoying the majority of the issues so far.

I'm not a huge fan of the roster (mostly with Wolverine, Spiderwoman and Ronin) But I do like Luke Cage on the team and it's about damn time Spiderman joined.

another thing that bugs me is that by bringing Cage in they broke up Luke Cage and Iron Fist. They work together great and they're both excellent characters. Forget Ronin. Bring Rand in.

And the sentry's interesting. I dont mind him being around but i'd prefer if they had at least one other heavy hitter who they could depend on.

I'm a little dissappointed that New Avengers is going. Despite it not impressing me yet i was hopeful for it. (the avengers change rosters often enough and i figured they were 1 roster change away from greatness)

 

[BrianWilly]

Neither the Young Avengers or the Teen Titans are "auxillary teams." They were never a part of the Justice League or the Avengers, and getting the two to work together pretty much always leads to more tension than otherwise. They are their own teams.

I think it's utterly ridiculous to give the New Avengers, or specifically Bendis, any credit at all for the existence of the Young Avengers, and I'm really surprised at how many people seem to think that should be the case. What? Seriously, what? That's like saying that your brother slapped you and your mother gave you some cake to compensate for it, so you should thank your brother for slapping you. What, why should I think him?? He didn't give me any cake. He slapped me. Someone else gave me the cake.

The New Avengers didn't create the Young Avengers, they created themselves. Why should they get the credit? And in the real world, Bendis didn't create the Young Avengers...Heinberg did. Why should Bendis get his credit?

 

[Willowhugger]

Hopefully the New Avengers will outlast Bendis. I have high hopes the team's spirit will survive in the next incarnation of the Avengers.

 

[Dwarf lord]

Hopefully the New Avengers will outlast Bendis. I have high hopes the team's spirit will survive in the next incarnation of the Avengers.

I sure hope not...

 

[Dread]

Neither the Young Avengers or the Teen Titans are "auxillary teams." They were never a part of the Justice League or the Avengers, and getting the two to work together pretty much always leads to more tension than otherwise. They are their own teams.

I think it's utterly ridiculous to give the New Avengers, or specifically Bendis, any credit at all for the existence of the Young Avengers, and I'm really surprised at how many people seem to think that should be the case. What? Seriously, what? That's like saying that your brother slapped you and your mother gave you some cake to compensate for it, so you should thank your brother for slapping you. What, why should I think him?? He didn't give me any cake. He slapped me. Someone else gave me the cake.

The New Avengers didn't create the Young Avengers, they created themselves. Why should they get the credit? And in the real world, Bendis didn't create the Young Avengers...Heinberg did. Why should Bendis get his credit?

I agree Heinberg gets the credit for the YA. But the topic was asking for pro's and con's for the NA in GENERAL, which I took to mean not just the stories, but as an editorial concept. And editorially speaking, after spending years upon years upon years ignoring the Avengers to focus on Spider-Man or the X-Men, do you REALLY think Heinberg would have been able to successfully pitch and launch YOUNG AVENGERS without an editorial board eager to turn Bendis' Avengers crap into their next biggest franchise? Without DISASSEMBLED to react to? Because I don't. The closest to YA that Marvel had before Heinberg came along was NEW WARRIORS, which they'd left to languish and die even worse than the Avengers.

I see DISASSEMBLED as the earth-scorching fire that took a heavy toll that still has deep scars, and YOUNG AVENGERS as the flower that managed to grow from that enriched earth, despite the carnage.

I wasn't trying to give Bendis the credit for Heinberg's creation (a great one), but vis a vis, Bendis was part of the launch that gave the YA their feet in the door (as Marvel wanted more spin-off's from the New Avengers that weren't "staple relaunches" of CAP and IM, and YA was a brand new title) and one could ask if DISASSEMBLED would have even happened if Bendis declined for whatever reason? Realistically speaking, DISASSEMBLED and NA had to happen for YA to get acceptted as pitch in my mind.

Besides, I obviously have more con's than pro's for NA in my post, so I was optimistically reaching.

To use your example, no you don't have to thank your brother for slapping you. But you have to rationally acknowledge that if he hadn't slapped you, you'd not had a reason to get that cake. It's not the same as gratitude. It's acknowledgement, understanding a cause/effect reaction.

 

[Willowhugger]

I sure hope not...

Wow, the negativity here could be cut with a knife.

 

[Darthphere]

I agree Heinberg gets the credit for the YA. But the topic was asking for pro's and con's for the NA in GENERAL, which I took to mean not just the stories, but as an editorial concept. And editorially speaking, after spending years upon years upon years ignoring the Avengers to focus on Spider-Man or the X-Men, do you REALLY think Heinberg would have been able to successfully pitch and launch YOUNG AVENGERS without an editorial board eager to turn Bendis' Avengers crap into their next biggest franchise? Without DISASSEMBLED to react to? Because I don't. The closest to YA that Marvel had before Heinberg came along was NEW WARRIORS, which they'd left to languish and die even worse than the Avengers.

I see DISASSEMBLED as the earth-scorching fire that took a heavy toll that still has deep scars, and YOUNG AVENGERS as the flower that managed to grow from that enriched earth, despite the carnage.

I wasn't trying to give Bendis the credit for Heinberg's creation (a great one), but vis a vis, Bendis was part of the launch that gave the YA their feet in the door (as Marvel wanted more spin-off's from the New Avengers that weren't "staple relaunches" of CAP and IM, and YA was a brand new title) and one could ask if DISASSEMBLED would have even happened if Bendis declined for whatever reason? Realistically speaking, DISASSEMBLED and NA had to happen for YA to get acceptted as pitch in my mind.

Besides, I obviously have more con's than pro's for NA in my post, so I was optimistically reaching.

To use your example, no you don't have to thank your brother for slapping you. But you have to rationally acknowledge that if he hadn't slapped you, you'd not had a reason to get that cake. It's not the same as gratitude. It's acknowledgement, understanding a cause/effect reaction.

See, but Young Avengers spun out of Avengers Disassembled, not New Avengers. When YA came together, the NA hadnt even formed yet.

 

[Dread]

See, but Young Avengers spun out of Avengers Disassembled, not New Avengers. When YA came together, the NA hadnt even formed yet.

But DISASSEMBLED was the prelude to NA and was the "justification" or lead-up to it. Heinberg connected the Young Avengers to the old/new by having Cap and Iron Man involved in their forming and having newer members like Spider-Man give their takes on their forming (and even battling alongside them at the end). It's a chicken or the egg sort of syndrome. Without DISASSEMBLED, no NA, no high sales and editorial interest in Avengers franchises or spin-offs, no Heinberg & Cheung launching YA. Linking DISASSEMBLED to NA is also a given because the same writer & artist launched both, Bendis & Finch.

I understand that a lot of you dislike NA and don't want to even think of connecting something great like YA to it. I'm no cheerleader for NEW AVENGERS, as anyone who's read enough of my posts, or my long pro/con one could say. But I see a cause/effect relationship here, and have often felt that Heinberg's YA is the best thing that came out of DISASSEMBLED/NA, almost good enough to justify it all. YA couldn't have been pitched in it's selling and successful form without a mangled Avengers, a dead Lang, a missing Wanda, etc. DISASSEMBLED was the "Phantom Menace" to NA's "Clone Wars", and YA was the successful spin off. And yes, I picked those films deliberately.

 

[Willowhugger]

Helmut Zemo Icon: Bwhahahahaha. Little do they suspect this is all an attempt to divide those whom dislike the New Avengers so I can RULE THE WORLD.

 

[Darthphere]

But DISASSEMBLED was the prelude to NA and was the "justification" or lead-up to it. Heinberg connected the Young Avengers to the old/new by having Cap and Iron Man involved in their forming and having newer members like Spider-Man give their takes on their forming (and even battling alongside them at the end). It's a chicken or the egg sort of syndrome. Without DISASSEMBLED, no NA, no high sales and editorial interest in Avengers franchises or spin-offs, no Heinberg & Cheung launching YA. Linking DISASSEMBLED to NA is also a given because the same writer & artist launched both, Bendis & Finch.

I understand that a lot of you dislike NA and don't want to even think of connecting something great like YA to it. I'm no cheerleader for NEW AVENGERS, as anyone who's read enough of my posts, or my long pro/con one could say. But I see a cause/effect relationship here, and have often felt that Heinberg's YA is the best thing that came out of DISASSEMBLED/NA, almost good enough to justify it all. YA couldn't have been pitched in it's selling and successful form without a mangled Avengers, a dead Lang, a missing Wanda, etc. DISASSEMBLED was the "Phantom Menace" to NA's "Clone Wars", and YA was the successful spin off. And yes, I picked those films deliberately.

It is incorrect to say that YA spun-out of New Avengers. It spun out of Disassembled, as did New Avengers. You can't spin out of something that doesnt exist, as the creation of the New Avengers didnt happen until after Young Avengers appeared. New Avengers and Young Avengers spun out of the same comic, not out of each other.

 

[Dwarf lord]

Wow, the negativity here could be cut with a knife.

I'm really not negative in general, just towards things that are bad.

 

[Willowhugger]

I'm really not negative in general, just towards things that are bad.

And you explain the popularity by a magical cult of Bendis then?

 

[Dwarf lord]

And you explain the popularity by a magical cult of Bendis then?

Over-Hyping plain and simple. If you use characters that will sell no matter what, it'll be a hit no matter how bad it actually is.