New Christians Have A Voice

[rodhulk]

Nobody is casting any stones.

 

[BlackLantern]

living here in the northeast, I have had the privelige to associate with people of various faiths....Jewish, Muslim, and so on....they hold to their beliefs such as catholics/christians hold to theirs....

 

[rodhulk]

Yes it is.

Right. So I accept that, but also all the other books of the OT plus the whole NT!

 

[Star]

The trouble is, just like those Muslim extremists blowing folks up, is that a very vocal minority gets a whole thought ideal branded as being the same thing. Just like most ordinary Muslims are peaceful and wouldn't condone the violence of their brothers, so many Christians wouldn't neccessarily agree with the extremist views of some of their Fundamentalist kin. It isn't fair to say that all Muslim and all Christians are so violent and rigid.

Hi Squeek long time no see

Its just unfortunate that I've had so many bad experiences being attacked by pretty extreme Christians. It's probably because I live maybe five minutes from a 'brainwashing' church as I put it, where the members tell me about the greatness of their church and how i am probably doomed to hell...

Sad that the minority does give Christianity such a bad rep. I've just stopped arguing about it on SHH because theres also a lot of VERY anti christians on this site...

Seeing as there is clearly a lot of Christians looking at this thread... what exactly do you have to gain by arguing with someone, who's opinion will likely NOT be changed, over the internet? I used to argue with people (although I was arguing FOR homosexuality, but lets not get into that, because like I said, I am NOT arguing about anything religious anymore.) and it never got me anywhere except frustrated...

 

[BlackLantern]

The Bible is my authority so I'll let you answer your own question.

Oh, and isn't the Torah the OT law?

Im just trying to get a grasp on your stance is all....according to you anyone who doesnt believe what you believe is damned. I dont get that POV....whats wrong with people who believe differently from you??? does it threaten you...that your method of belief might not be what God intended???

 

[Mr. Socko]

You're free to call it what you want and perhaps in some cases, it's possible. The Bible speaks about such cases (maybe not in direct relation to homosexuality, but could include it). That's why God's the judge and I just pass on the message that word-for-word from the Bible, it's wrong.

But doesn't the bible say to not judge others, especially those you do not even know? I'm sure there's even something in there about not casting stones. Yet you both judge me as well as look down upon me.

As brought up earlier, does a homeless man, who is a Christian, get condemned to hell if he steals food for himself and his family, as if it is the only way to survive for him and those he are trying to support. Do all who take part in homosexuality, even the Christian ones, go to hell?

In Texas there exists the Church of Christ, it has a very large following of LGBT members, who all believe in Christ, but they also believe what they do in their personal life is just fine...that God loves them regardless of who they love. Do you believe all of the gay members of that church are going to hell?

This is why, though believing in a higher power, I cannot follow such doctrines. I cannot speak for yours nor anyone else's, but my God, if he is really there and looking over us, would love each and every one of us. If there is a god he would not condemn me for who I love, nor would any of his most important attendants...such as Jesus and Mohammad.

 

[rodhulk]

Im just trying to get a grasp on your stance is all....according to you anyone who doesnt believe what you believe is damned. I dont get that POV....whats wrong with people who believe differently from you??? does it threaten you...that your method of belief might not be what God intended???

Actually, I think I've been very clear that some homosexuals, muslims, etc... may be saved. The Bible does talk on an occasion or two about some who don't hold to the same belief as me who can be saved. In fact, there could be whole communities/cultures that could be saved yet not one single person believes what I do.

But, in general at least, I believe it to be the way I've usually said it to be.

 

[squeekness]

Right. So I accept that, but also all the other books of the OT plus the whole NT!

I accept all the books but I am not a literalist. I have a rather quirky view on things -- I believe the Bible is for the most part correct -- but not all and mostly old OT laws -- I also believe in the Incarnation and the saving blood of Christ. Yet I cannont escape this idea that Muhammad was in fact a prophet of God who was meant to reach yet another group of people and bring them closer to God. I am reading the Qur'an right now and quite frankly it isn't all that bad or disagreeable. In fact, I rather liked this verse :

Qur’an, Surah 2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur’an) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

I think people twisted what Muhammad had to say for their own use, a bad use, the same way some Christian extremists take certain verses to use them to exclude people they dislike.

Hi Squeek long time no see

Its just unfortunate that I've had so many bad experiences being attacked by pretty extreme Christians. It's probably because I live maybe five minutes from a 'brainwashing' church as I put it, where the members tell me about the greatness of their church and how i am probably doomed to hell...

Sad that the minority does give Christianity such a bad rep. I've just stopped arguing about it on SHH because theres also a lot of VERY anti christians on this site...

Seeing as there is clearly a lot of Christians looking at this thread... what exactly do you have to gain by arguing with someone, who's opinion will likely NOT be changed, over the internet? I used to argue with people (although I was arguing FOR homosexuality, but lets not get into that, because like I said, I am NOT arguing about anything religious anymore.) and it never got me anywhere except frustrated...

I am not here to convert anyone of anything, I am a poor follower of the Great Commission I suppose, I just hope that maybe folks might at least consider some of what I say and look into things for themselves and form their own views. I don't think God would want a person to feel so excluded from Him that they shouldn't even bother trying to find Him. I think the greatest sin is for someone to make someone feel so bad about themselves that they turn away from God. I don't like this "Church of You Can't" or the "Church of You Can't Belong Ever." Jesus never turned anyone away and neither should we.

 

[rodhulk]

But doesn't the bible say to not judge others, especially those you do not even know? I'm sure there's even something in there about not casting stones. Yet you both judge me as well as look down upon me.

As brought up earlier, does a homeless man, who is a Christian, get condemned to hell if he steals food for himself and his family, as if it is the only way to survive for him and those he are trying to support. Do all who take part in homosexuality, even the Christian ones, go to hell?

In Texas there exists the Church of Christ, it has a very large following of LGBT members, who all believe in Christ, but they also believe what they do in their personal life is just fine...that God loves them regardless of who they love. Do you believe all of the members of that church are going to hell?

This is why, though believing in a higher power, I cannot follow such doctrines. I cannot speak for yours nor anyone else's, but my God, if he is really there and looking over us, would love each and every one of us. If there is a god he would not condemn me for who I love, nor would any of his most important attendants...such as Jesus and Mohammad.

You didn't read what I said elsewhere. I don't like the sin/act, but the person (you) I pass no judgement (no stones are cast). That's up to God for the actual judgement.

As I wrote above, under certain circumstances, maybe you are saved. I never said you aren't. Really, I can only give a warning to an act that is made clear that the Bible says is wrong (if you can accept that), but judgement, that you aren't saved, I have NEVER said that to you or anyone that I recall.

 

[Noir]

Its SOOO Great not having to look at what Rodhulk is saying

 

[rodhulk]

Its SOOO Great not having to look at what Rodhulk is saying

Too bad cause I might surprise him with some of my latest comments.

 

[squeekness]

^^'Tis true!

 

[BlackLantern]

I think the main problem is there is no interaction. Christians, jews, and muslims dont talk to each other, their leaders seem to talk at each other.....maybe there should be a church that exchanges congregations with a temple or mosque...i bet some of these extreme christians have never even spoken to someone of another faith...and vice versa

 

[JStorm]

I leave for a few hours, and you guys turn this into another homosexual debate.

For the name of all that's stinky... the thread is about awareness, open-mindedness, compassion, etc.

And who would have thought... a CHRISTIAN stirs the pot.

Nice job on understanding Jesus.

 

[rodhulk]

I accept all the books but I am not a literalist. I have a rather quirky view on things -- I believe the Bible is for the most part correct -- but not all and mostly old OT laws -- I also believe in the Incarnation and the saving blood of Christ. Yet I cannont escape this idea that Muhammad was in fact a prophet of God who was meant to reach yet another group of people and bring them closer to God. I am reading the Qur'an right now and quite frankly it isn't all that bad or disagreeable. In fact, I rather liked this verse :

Qur’an, Surah 2:62
Those who believe (in the Qur’an) and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians – any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord: on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

I think people twisted what Muhammad had to say for their own use, a bad use, the same way some Christian extremists take certain verses to use them to exclude people they dislike.

I am not here to convert anyone of anything, I am a poor follower of the Great Commission I suppose, I just hope that maybe folks might at least consider some of what I say and look into things for themselves and form their own views. I don't think God would want a person to feel so excluded from Him that they shouldn't even bother trying to find Him. I think the greatest sin is for someone to make someone feel so bad about themselves that they turn away from God. I don't like this "Church of You Can't" or the "Church of You Can't Belong Ever." Jesus never turned anyone away and neither should we.

It's just that there are big differences in parts of the Bible and Koran with different teaching. For example, the Bible has the geneology line go through Isaac while the Koran through Ishmael. Also, isn't Jesus only a prophet or something in the Koran while in the Bible, he's God himself. You see, there are two different Jesus' in the Bible and Koran.

Anybody can correct me if I'm wrong here in my two points above. This is just the way I've thus far learned it.

 

[rodhulk]

I think the main problem is there is no interaction. Christians, jews, and muslims dont talk to each other, their leaders seem to talk at each other.....maybe there should be a church that exchanges congregations with a temple or mosque...i bet some of these extreme christians have never even spoken to someone of another faith...and vice versa

It's neat that you say that because I've had friends (and still have friends) of both jewish and muslim faiths (and buddhist as well). In fact, I even have a couple of friends of the Jehovah Witnesses. Really! What you read here may not reflect the person I am outside of the Hype. I like sports, for example. I often play, say tennis, with members of these other faiths.

 

[Captain_BluTac]

I leave for a few hours, and you guys turn this into another homosexual debate.

You know anything involving homosexuality turns into a mass debating session.

LOL say it aloud!

 

[JStorm]

You know anything involving homosexuality turns into a mass debating session.

LOL say it aloud!

I'm black and I'm proud.

 

[BlackLantern]

I mean there is no interaction on a notable scale....you might interact with others of different faiths....but there are 9 other christians who have never spoken with a jew or a muslim

 

[squeekness]

I think the main problem is there is no interaction. Christians, jews, and muslims dont talk to each other, their leaders seem to talk at each other.....maybe there should be a church that exchanges congregations with a temple or mosque...i bet some of these extreme christians have never even spoken to someone of another faith...and vice versa

I've read in my Christianity mags that the Pope is trying to open channels and is meeting with Jewish and Islamic leaders, trying to make peace.

It's just that there are big differences in parts of the Bible and Koran with different teaching. For example, the Bible has the geneology line go through Isaac while the Koran through Ishmael. Also, isn't Jesus only a prophet or something in the Koran while in the Bible, he's God himself. You see, there are two different Jesus' in the Bible and Koran.

I have heard this about the geneologies, but I haven't read that far in teh Qur'an yet myself so I can't agree or disagree. There are two different geneologies for Jesus even in the NT, though I agree with scholars that the lists vary due to adoptions (which made some of the names legal sons tho not by actual birth). Or some go by Mary or by Joseph. Personally, geneologies mean nothing to me. I understand that a promise was made to the House of David, but Jesus would still be who he really was, to me personally, regardless of his supposed lineage.

And from what I gather, yes, Jesus was considered in the Qur'an merely a prophet or wise man and not the Incarnation of God. I haven't read that far either, lol, but I have heard that in discussions about the Qur'an and Jesus.

 

[rodhulk]

I interact more with non-christians sometimes more than christians. It is true that alot of churches/christians think they're above other faiths and even above other christian churches. I've left individual churches due to this (no lying). However, there are many christians who are still great people, ones whom I chum around with alot, and who always humble themselves around other people, even these people who are of different faiths.

At the same time, we can be very 'christian' when in debate, but we never see ourselves as better people than anybody and we never cast stones at anybody. And, as I said above, we often do hang out with others of other faiths if there are similarities we have with each other, like my example of sports.

 

[Handsome Rob]

One of the things I liked about "Blue Like Jazz" was his emphasis on relational Christianity--the idea that you can build a relationship with someone first and then share the Good News with them, and they would be much more receptive. Why? Because they see how Jesus has changed your life for the better, and you serve as a positive influence. And, to do so requires doing what Jesus did--being willing to share with everyone, even if it means getting down in the trenches with the so-called "worst" of the sinners (as man defines them, not as God does) and the "wretched refuse" (same definition) of life to show them that Jesus is the Way. It involves establishing a relationship with those who need Jesus, even if they do not know it.

I don't like Max Lucado (he's a Christian author), but I loved his take on how he sees himself as a Christian trying to share the Gospel in relation to those who are not Christians: "I'm just one beggar showing other beggars where to find some bread." What he's saying is that Christians are only different from non-Christians in that they have found the "bread." They are no better and no worse than those around them. A Christian who looks down his nose at a hooker, Muslim, homosexual, or even a child molester (and that last one, I admit, is an extremely difficult person for me to NOT look down on) hasn't looked in a mirror lately and realized that he's just as guilty--the sin may be different, but the sinner is still the sinner. That's what I mean, above, when I talked about the "worst" sinners and the "wretched refuse."

I can't promise that I'll agree with the choices everyone on this board makes (and by choices, I mean actions--not temptations) or the opinions/beliefs they hold. As I've said before, I have a higher Standard that I am accountable to. But, I hope that over time you'll see that I don't post as a man who thinks himself flawless, as a man who knows what everyone should do in every situation, as a man who completely understands every aspect of God or the Christian "walk," or as a man who looks down on certain segments of our world.

In the end, I hope that you'll see me as a man who wants others to find what I have found.

 

[rodhulk]

I've read in my Christianity mags that the Pope is trying to open channels and is meeting with Jewish and Islamic leaders, trying to make peace.

I have heard this about the geneologies, but I haven't read that far in teh Qur'an yet myself so I can't agree or disagree. There are two different geneologies for Jesus even in the NT, though I agree with scholars that the lists vary due to adoptions (which made some of the names legal sons tho not by actual birth). Or some go by Mary or by Joseph. Personally, geneologies mean nothing to me. I understand that a promise was made to the House of David, but Jesus would still be who he really was, to me personally, regardless of his supposed lineage.

And from what I gather, yes, Jesus was considered in the Qur'an merely a prophet or wise man and not the Incarnation of God. I haven't read that far either, lol, but I have heard that in discussions about the Qur'an and Jesus.

I think what matters in the geneologies is that if it was Ishmael, then it would be the Koran and Jesus would be a prophet or wise man, not God. But, as we have it in the Bible (I don't believe the OT and NT contradict on this part), the line went through Isaac which brings us to Jesus as being God himself.

That's ^ my understanding at the moment anyway.

 

[squeekness]

One of the things I liked about "Blue Like Jazz" was his emphasis on relational Christianity--the idea that you can build a relationship with someone first and then share the Good News with them, and they would be much more receptive. Why? Because they see how Jesus has changed your life for the better, and you serve as a positive influence. And, to do so requires doing what Jesus did--being willing to share with everyone, even if it means getting down in the trenches with the so-called "worst" of the sinners (as man defines them, not as God does) and the "wretched refuse" (same definition) of life to show them that Jesus is the Way. It involves establishing a relationship with those who need Jesus, even if they do not know it.

I don't like Max Lucado (he's a Christian author), but I loved his take on how he sees himself as a Christian trying to share the Gospel in relation to those who are not Christians: "I'm just one beggar showing other beggars where to find some bread." What he's saying is that Christians are only different from non-Christians in that they have found the "bread." They are no better and no worse than those around them. A Christian who looks down his nose at a hooker, Muslim, homosexual, or even a child molester (and that last one, I admit, is an extremely difficult person for me to NOT look down on) hasn't looked in a mirror lately and realized that he's just as guilty--the sin may be different, but the sinner is still the sinner. That's what I mean, above, when I talked about the "worst" sinners and the "wretched refuse."

I can't promise that I'll agree with the choices everyone on this board makes (and by choices, I mean actions--not temptations) or the opinions/beliefs they hold. As I've said before, I have a higher Standard that I am accountable to. But, I hope that over time you'll see that I don't post as a man who thinks himself flawless, as a man who knows what everyone should do in every situation, as a man who completely understands every aspect of God or the Christian "walk," or as a man who looks down on certain segments of our world.

In the end, I hope that you'll see me as a man who wants others to find what I have found.

I can relate to this even if we've found different things. I have heard of Blue Like Jazz, it got a bad review in one of my magazines ( reviewed by a Fundie so no suprise there), I think maybe I'd like to read it now. It sounds like he shares many of my more liberal and forgiving views.

 

[squeekness]

I think what matters in the geneologies is that if it was Ishmael, then it would be the Koran and Jesus would be a prophet or wise amn, not God. But, as we have it in the Bible (I don't believe the OT and NT contradict on this part), the line went through Isaac which brings us to Jesus as being God himself.

That's ^ my understanding at the moment anyway.

Sounds to me like that could be right. Like I said, I favor the NT Jesus anyhow so if the Qur'an disagrees, it won't change my mind about him in the least. I believe in the Incarnation and it would take a lot more than Muhammad's opinion to change my mind.