The Dark Knight Now that its said and done, what would you change?

and since you obviously didn't grasp what I meant by that I'll explain.

When I say obsessed with duality, it doesn't mean he's obsessed with the number two. I don't want to see Two-Face with two girlfriends, owning two t.v.'s, owning two pairs of shoes....ect. It mean's he's obsessed with the duality of all things. The good side and bad side, the light and the dark. He's obsessed with the duality in humans, and he openly reflects this more then any normal person does.
I thought you meant the cheesy duality of his as seen in B-forever or some of the comics. My bad! *read that in Optimus Prime's voice*
I would have Harvey systematically attack gotham through the mob and justice system, that would hold symbolic meaning to him, because he's not just attacking Gotham, he's taking both dual sides of the city, the mob, which resembles the dark, and the justice system, which resembles the light, and using both sides to tear the city apart.
What would the meaning of all this be? So he is just a wacko that attacks both sides. So what? Nolan always gives the villains a symbolic role so that they are not just bad guys for bale to beat, but they represent some aspect or obstacle of crime fighting.

And really, what you re saying about Two-face reminds me a lot what the joker did. Only that the joker was on a mission to prove a point, but on your case it would be just Two-face hellbent on his crazy meaningless mission.

I think that two face did his thing. It was short and it was tragic. No need for him to become a mass murdering villain. He will lose all the sympathy we have going for him.

I would like to see someone else in the next film, as well as a short cameo of the joker. In arkham perhaps when batman visits someone else and he walks by his cell or something. I wouldnt want to see the riddler though. He seems silly to me and i dont see how he can be used symbolically for Nolan to send us a deep message across.

And Anita18, I have to disagree. I don't think the alternate ending makes Batman seem somehow less strong. No, he's not making himself become a villain, but he's still accepting that he will wear the mantle of Batman, and he's willing to do anything to continue to be Batman. The end of the movie was showing us that Bruce has accepted Batman fully, that was the main message, and I think the other ending I proposed has the same message as well.
Not really. In your ending it would just be the cops chasing him again like they have been doing all the time up until now.
But until now he was just a vigilante. Now he is a murderer. Even a cop killer. And he chose to take the fall for that to serve Gotham.
 
And I'm saying him and Linda Hemming were going to go farther with the costume. In the "Art of TDK" book, they said they were going to have Batman w/o a cape. It would've been that backpack thing you see briefly in the scene in HK. They spent so much time designing it they had to use it for something, so they threw it in that scene.
The only reason they considered him capeless for TDK is because the cape would get tangled up in the Pod's rear wheel so they came up with the backpack to be used for when he is riding it. But it turned out that the cape didnt get tangled up and it even looked fantastic so they didnt use it. They didnt consider having him capeless all the time for the sake of it.
 
I thought you meant the cheesy duality of his as seen in B-forever or some of the comics. My bad! *read that in Optimus Prime's voice*
What would the meaning of all this be? So he is just a wacko that attacks both sides. So what? Nolan always gives the villains a symbolic role so that they are not just bad guys for bale to beat, but they represent some aspect or obstacle of crime fighting.

And really, what you re saying about Two-face reminds me a lot what the joker did. Only that the joker was on a mission to prove a point, but on your case it would be just Two-face hellbent on his crazy meaningless mission.
Here, this is what I typed originally about the whole situation
What I would have done (and this is just an idea I just thought up) would be to show how deeply Harvey becomes obsessed with justice and the duality of things. After the death of Rachel, and realizing how even Gordon's unit was extremely corrupted, Harvey would have viewed the entire city as letting him down. Everything he believed in, his sense of justice, was shattered in the moment that Rachel was killed.

Harvey wants revenge on all the things that betray him, so his Two-Face side sets out to gain control of the mob, to wage war on the justice system which he once tried to champion, but it ultimately failed him. On the other hand, the Dent personality goes out and finds information on the next DA who is running to take Harvey's place. After finding some dirt on him, he blackmails the DA, and in addition to that, gains control of some of the other main lawyers and judges in the justice system through threats and blackmail, effectively gaining control of the court system.

He then makes both sides go at eachother in a suicide battle, making the mob pull aggressive attacks and robberies, while at the same time having the laywers and judges he has under his control begin to order out extreme meausers to capture the members of the mob. Basically, he puts both sides in a situation where they'll destroy eachother. He sets up some of his main mob boys to get killed and captured by the police, while at the same time carring out hits against judges and lawyers, putting both sides into a frenzy.

In other words, he effictively puts Gotham into an all out war between the Law and Order and the mob, which would be perfect revenge for two-face, because he's equally punishing both sides responsible for Rachel's death and his condition.

At the same time, he'd use his power to try and dirty Gordon's name and make Batman an outlaw, getting his revenge on both of them.

Throughout all of this, I would also make good use of Two-Face's psyche, demonstrating how messed up he really is. I'd expand his character by having Bats investigate Dent's past, discovering the traumatic events that happened in his life and his abusive childhood, which set him up for his fall, even before Rachel.
I think that two face did his thing. It was short and it was tragic. No need for him to become a mass murdering villain. He will lose all the sympathy we have going for him.

I would like to see someone else in the next film, as well as a short cameo of the joker. In arkham perhaps when batman visits someone else and he walks by his cell or something. I wouldnt want to see the riddler though. He seems silly to me and i dont see how he can be used symbolically for Nolan to send us a deep message across.
I guess we just disagree on the character then. I think Two-Face is a very interesting villain, and one who we could have done much more with. And with the Riddler, I think he could be done interesting, but you'd have to reinvent him a bit.
Not really. In your ending it would just be the cops chasing him again like they have been doing all the time up until now.
But until now he was just a vigilante. Now he is a murderer. Even a cop killer. And he chose to take the fall for that to serve Gotham.

The cops had been "chasing" Batman, but everyone at that point knew they were letting him do his thing. In my senario, Gordon makes it clear that he has to really come after Batman for real now. Instead of having him take the fall for Gotham and lying and saying he's a murderer, I have him choosing to stay in Gotham when he knows he's going to be hunted as intensely as the Joker.

The whole point of Batman taking the fall for Dent was to show that he had finally overcome his weariness of the Batman role that we are shown in the beginning of TDK, that he has fully accepted the Batman mantle, and is willing to do anything to stay in the city and protect it.

I think the other senario shows this as well, it just doesn't have Batman opting to take the fall for Harvey. However, it still shows that he's willing to endure anything to continue protecting Gotham.

I will say, it's not quite as powerfull as the original TDK ending, but I'm willing to sacrifice some of that to see the Two-Face character done better.
 
Get rid of the idiot SWAT guy that was with Gordon in the SWAT car chase sequence.

yeah this is all i would have gotten rid of. that guy sucks. he leeches all the suspense from the helicopter crash..."that's not good! ok, that's really not good!"...why nolan? the rest of the movie is so dead on and then there's just that....but still...it's not bad enough to ruin the film, at least, and it's still not as bad as "i GOTTA get me one of those!"
 
What I would have done (and this is just an idea I just thought up) would be to show how deeply Harvey becomes obsessed with justice and the duality of things. After the death of Rachel, and realizing how even Gordon's unit was extremely corrupted, Harvey would have viewed the entire city as letting him down. Everything he believed in, his sense of justice, was shattered in the moment that Rachel was killed.

Harvey wants revenge on all the things that betray him, so his Two-Face side sets out to gain control of the mob, to wage war on the justice system which he once tried to champion, but it ultimately failed him. On the other hand, the Dent personality goes out and finds information on the next DA who is running to take Harvey's place. After finding some dirt on him, he blackmails the DA, and in addition to that, gains control of some of the other main lawyers and judges in the justice system through threats and blackmail, effectively gaining control of the court system.

He then makes both sides go at eachother in a suicide battle, making the mob pull aggressive attacks and robberies, while at the same time having the laywers and judges he has under his control begin to order out extreme meausers to capture the members of the mob. Basically, he puts both sides in a situation where they'll destroy eachother. He sets up some of his main mob boys to get killed and captured by the police, while at the same time carring out hits against judges and lawyers, putting both sides into a frenzy.

In other words, he effictively puts Gotham into an all out war between the Law and Order and the mob, which would be perfect revenge for two-face, because he's equally punishing both sides responsible for Rachel's death and his condition.

At the same time, he'd use his power to try and dirty Gordon's name and make Batman an outlaw, getting his revenge on both of them.

Throughout all of this, I would also make good use of Two-Face's psyche, demonstrating how messed up he really is. I'd expand his character by having Bats investigate Dent's past, discovering the traumatic events that happened in his life and his abusive childhood, which set him up for his fall, even before Rachel.
So basically it will be a mindless action flick where the mob fights the cops and lawyers because of TwoFace. Well i never thought they needed him to fight each other! I also dont see how people would be interested in another origin story of his. I think that TDK established what his problems were and why he turned. I never got any implications about his father nor did i even need them.
For some reason you are just fixated on Two-face and his father issues, not understanding that Nolan's Dent had a more complex psychology than "baw my father beat me up". Also, what you are asking would be the equivalent of another Ras movie to further explore his origin (wife and all) and the lazarus pits or lack thereof. You just want a movie about Dent's father and two-face in general.

I respect your opinion. I on the other hand had my share of Two-face and i am ready for something else. Hell, even a reappearence of Ras (unlikely) or Talia. But what i want most of all is a movie that focuses on Batman and his character development. You see, what Nolan has done in both films is assign the villain a certain role. Example: Ras = Kill or not kill for justice?
Scarecrow: Fear
Joker: Chaos and how we respond to that as a society

I'd like the next villain to trigger something else and open new roads of exploring Gotham and batman's development as a character. If i wanted a movie about Dent or his father, i would have asked for Burton (hehe).
 
The cops had been "chasing" Batman, but everyone at that point knew they were letting him do his thing. In my senario, Gordon makes it clear that he has to really come after Batman for real now. Instead of having him take the fall for Gotham and lying and saying he's a murderer, I have him choosing to stay in Gotham when he knows he's going to be hunted as intensely as the Joker.

The whole point of Batman taking the fall for Dent was to show that he had finally overcome his weariness of the Batman role that we are shown in the beginning of TDK, that he has fully accepted the Batman mantle, and is willing to do anything to stay in the city and protect it.

I think the other senario shows this as well, it just doesn't have Batman opting to take the fall for Harvey. However, it still shows that he's willing to endure anything to continue protecting Gotham.

I will say, it's not quite as powerfull as the original TDK ending, but I'm willing to sacrifice some of that to see the Two-Face character done better.
Ok, point taken. And yes its similar but not the same.
 
And if I'm not mistaken, in the novelization they include the abusive father aspect, they even have Harvey come home to find his dad had committed suicide I believe.
I believe the novelization does, but Harvey's short biography in The Gotham Times for the TDK ARG does not. Since I saw absolutely no indication of a troubled childhood in TDK, I chose to believe the article in the viral marketing.
 
they had to throw in some lame one liners, like "ok thats NOT good!", believe it or not, people like the lame oneliners, my wife is a perfect example (bless her heart, i should cut a smile in her face :twisted:)
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with one liners. Jesus christ, fellas. This stuff is dramatic, but not that dramatic. Alittle escapism is okay one in awhile. It doesn't ruin anything. Why be so melodramatic?
 
i hear ya zigzag, i cant think of a movie in history without some cheesy one liner. to me, some random one liners are just part of the move experience
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with one liners. Jesus christ, fellas. This stuff is dramatic, but not that dramatic. Alittle escapism is okay one in awhile. It doesn't ruin anything. Why be so melodramatic?

Nothing against humour man. But if it's a crappy then it can kill a good scene like many times happened in BB. But TDK had little of those so no problem.
 
the only dialogue i completely hated in BB which made me give it a 8.5/10 instead of a solid 9 was "Shes been poisoned with a psychotrobic hallucinogen, a fear inducing toxin"

wtf. shut up . i wanted to punch him when he said all that....a simple "shes been poisoned, you cant help her, i can"
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with one liners. Jesus christ, fellas. This stuff is dramatic, but not that dramatic. Alittle escapism is okay one in awhile. It doesn't ruin anything. Why be so melodramatic?

here's the thing, there's nothing wrong with one-liners if they are well placed and also amusing. but the swat guy was really, really poorly shoe-horned into an otherwise highly dramatic scene. i really think there is something wrong with having an incredible helicopter crash that makes your mouth drop contrasted with a guy going "OH SHUCKS AINT THAT THE PITS". didn't ruin the movie for me at all, but i'm still allowed to think it would have been better without it.
 
been better without it? i mean, its a PG13 movie, the guy cant say OH ****!
 
I can't believe some of you claim you saw this movie as a 10/10, yet would change major parts of the movie.


It was what it was, and I loved it...



I guess it's just human nature to nitpick and complain.
 
I can't believe some of you claim you saw this movie as a 10/10, yet would change major parts of the movie.


It was what it was, and I loved it...



I guess it's just human nature to nitpick and complain.

if you are trying to say your top film, your 10/10 film, you wouldnt change ONE THING, then im calling you a liar.

The movie was a 10/10 the way it was to me. but i still would change some things if i could.
 
if you are trying to say your top film, your 10/10 film, you wouldnt change ONE THING, then im calling you a liar.

The movie was a 10/10 the way it was to me. but i still would change some things if i could.


It wouldn't be my 10/10 if I would change things in the movie.


But I get what you're saying, I guess we all look at movies differently though. It's all good.
 
i hear ya zigzag, i cant think of a movie in history without some cheesy one liner. to me, some random one liners are just part of the GOYER experience

Fixed!
 
Nothing against humour man. But if it's a crappy then it can kill a good scene like many times happened in BB. But TDK had little of those so no problem.
Every Batman movie has had them. "Eat floor, high fiber" ... they're only scene killers if you let them be.
 
Every Batman movie has had them. "Eat floor, high fiber" ... they're only scene killers if you let them be.

Only if they're misplaced. If Batman is trying to show he's not afraid by by a one-liner is okay, if Joker says a one-liner is even better. When the situation is serious and the one-liner is there merely as a desperate attempt to keep your attention or to please you as if you couldn't be amused with good narration only, then it's a killer. Yes, I'm refering to Nice Coat. :P
 
So basically it will be a mindless action flick where the mob fights the cops and lawyers because of TwoFace. Well i never thought they needed him to fight each other! I also dont see how people would be interested in another origin story of his. I think that TDK established what his problems were and why he turned. I never got any implications about his father nor did i even need them.
For some reason you are just fixated on Two-face and his father issues, not understanding that Nolan's Dent had a more complex psychology than "baw my father beat me up". Also, what you are asking would be the equivalent of another Ras movie to further explore his origin (wife and all) and the lazarus pits or lack thereof. You just want a movie about Dent's father and two-face in general.

Where, in any of my posts, did I say that I wanted a mindless action flick that features Two-Face.

Where, in any of my posts, did I say that I only wanted a movie focused solely on the relationship between Two-Face and his father?

You're drawing conclusions from what I say that are unfounded.

To begin with, it would not in any way be a mindless action flick. As I said, Two-Face would view not only the individuals to blame for his predicament, but all of Gotham. And he would go about tearing Gotham apart using his own influences on both side of the law.

No, I do not want the mob and the law fighting each other, what I would have them do is enter an all out WAR. Two Face pushes both sides past extremes. I'm not talking judges ordering swat teams to apprehend known mob hangouts, I'm saying Two-Face begins forcing Judges and Lawyers to enact warrants that escalates everything. Shoot on sight orders for anyone affiliated with the mob, forcing through search warrants for buildings and areas with no evidence, and then making sure the mob is there to ensure a bloodbath.

And the reason he's doing this, as I said, is because he's obsessed with duality. He wants to tear apart Gotham from both sides, the dark and light.

Besides all this, as I've already stated, Two-Face would use his power to start smearing Gordon, trying to dirty his name (you could also add the subplot of Gordon and Essen from Y1, and have Two-Face dirty Gordon's name that way) While at the same time forcing the law to enact extreme measures to capture Batman.

In addition to this, you could also throw in another villain, like the Riddler or the Penguin. This was just my idea for Two-Face, not for everything in the movie.

And where the heck do you get the idea that I think Two-Face is a guy who is motivated solely by his father. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT. You fail to recognize that there is more to Two-Face's psychology then his grief at Rachel and rage that the Justice system failed him. Nolan's Two-Face is all about revenge, and as I've said, the character is deeper then that.

The issues with his father are very complex. His father would tell him he would beat him if he flipped heads on his lucky coin. Obviously it always landed heads. This planted the seeds for Dent's eventual obsession with duality and chance. Two very important parts of him. But I'm not saying, NOR HAVE I EVER SAID, that this is the only part to him. It's only a part of what makes him interesting.

And you're missing the fact that I only said I'd mention the father in a subplot. Bats would discover Dent's past while researching him. It was only an added detail I threw in there!

You've completely missed all the points I've made about Two-Face's character. There are many deep and interesting things you could do with the character that I felt Nolan has done. The entire Mob situation I proposed all has symbolic meaning to the character. It's the tearing apart of Gotham at it's two dual halves. The dark side (the mob) and the light (the law). Two-Face gains control and corrupts both of these sides and uses them to destroy Gotham. Thus gaining his revenge on Gotham for what it did to him, and turning it into a mirror image of himself. Two contrasting sides battling for control.

See, Two-Face is a reflection of all humans. We all have our dark sides and our good sides, but because of the trauma he experienced, his two sides have been forced into extremes that normal humans don't show. He has gone as far to actually separate the two sides of him into separate personalities, whereas we as normal people try to hide our dark sides, and not only that, but we blur the lines between each side. We don't limit ourselves to being only good, or only bad. We act in-between.

Gotham would start out like a normal person, the good side and bad side coexisting in one entity. Two-Face, by pitting the two sides of the city into a confrontation more extreme then ever before, would force the city into the same polarized state he is in.


I respect your opinion. I on the other hand had my share of Two-face and i am ready for something else. Hell, even a reappearence of Ras (unlikely) or Talia. But what i want most of all is a movie that focuses on Batman and his character development. You see, what Nolan has done in both films is assign the villain a certain role. Example: Ras = Kill or not kill for justice?
Scarecrow: Fear
Joker: Chaos and how we respond to that as a society

I'd like the next villain to trigger something else and open new roads of exploring Gotham and batman's development as a character. If i wanted a movie about Dent or his father, i would have asked for Burton (hehe).

As I said above, I'm not saying Two-Face would be the only villain in the film. But I think I've demonstrated above that he would do very well to explore a new theme in a Batman movie: Duality.

Not only could we examine Two-Face attacking Gotham through duality, we could start examining the duality of Batman, and examine the issues Bruce has to deal with more in depth. Such as the questions: who is the real person? Bruce or Batman? Which is the act? And does it have to be either one, or is it somewhere in between.

Duality is great theme of Two-Face, and one that could have been explored in depth with Batman as well.
 
Is this seriously a thread?

NOTHING. Not a thing.

Especially when most are just complaints that they saw it in the trailer and thought it was one way or one take and didn't accept it was new.
 

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