The Dark Knight Now that its said and done, what would you change?

[Mr. Earle]

Spoiler

Where, in any of my posts, did I say that I wanted a mindless action flick that features Two-Face.

Where, in any of my posts, did I say that I only wanted a movie focused solely on the relationship between Two-Face and his father?

You're drawing conclusions from what I say that are unfounded.

To begin with, it would not in any way be a mindless action flick. As I said, Two-Face would view not only the individuals to blame for his predicament, but all of Gotham. And he would go about tearing Gotham apart using his own influences on both side of the law.

No, I do not want the mob and the law fighting each other, what I would have them do is enter an all out WAR. Two Face pushes both sides past extremes. I'm not talking judges ordering swat teams to apprehend known mob hangouts, I'm saying Two-Face begins forcing Judges and Lawyers to enact warrants that escalates everything. Shoot on sight orders for anyone affiliated with the mob, forcing through search warrants for buildings and areas with no evidence, and then making sure the mob is there to ensure a bloodbath.

And the reason he's doing this, as I said, is because he's obsessed with duality. He wants to tear apart Gotham from both sides, the dark and light.

Besides all this, as I've already stated, Two-Face would use his power to start smearing Gordon, trying to dirty his name (you could also add the subplot of Gordon and Essen from Y1, and have Two-Face dirty Gordon's name that way) While at the same time forcing the law to enact extreme measures to capture Batman.

In addition to this, you could also throw in another villain, like the Riddler or the Penguin. This was just my idea for Two-Face, not for everything in the movie.

And where the heck do you get the idea that I think Two-Face is a guy who is motivated solely by his father. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT. You fail to recognize that there is more to Two-Face's psychology then his grief at Rachel and rage that the Justice system failed him. Nolan's Two-Face is all about revenge, and as I've said, the character is deeper then that.

The issues with his father are very complex. His father would tell him he would beat him if he flipped heads on his lucky coin. Obviously it always landed heads. This planted the seeds for Dent's eventual obsession with duality and chance. Two very important parts of him. But I'm not saying, NOR HAVE I EVER SAID, that this is the only part to him. It's only a part of what makes him interesting.

And you're missing the fact that I only said I'd mention the father in a subplot. Bats would discover Dent's past while researching him. It was only an added detail I threw in there!

You've completely missed all the points I've made about Two-Face's character. There are many deep and interesting things you could do with the character that I felt Nolan has done. The entire Mob situation I proposed all has symbolic meaning to the character. It's the tearing apart of Gotham at it's two dual halves. The dark side (the mob) and the light (the law). Two-Face gains control and corrupts both of these sides and uses them to destroy Gotham. Thus gaining his revenge on Gotham for what it did to him, and turning it into a mirror image of himself. Two contrasting sides battling for control.

See, Two-Face is a reflection of all humans. We all have our dark sides and our good sides, but because of the trauma he experienced, his two sides have been forced into extremes that normal humans don't show. He has gone as far to actually separate the two sides of him into separate personalities, whereas we as normal people try to hide our dark sides, and not only that, but we blur the lines between each side. We don't limit ourselves to being only good, or only bad. We act in-between.

Gotham would start out like a normal person, the good side and bad side coexisting in one entity. Two-Face, by pitting the two sides of the city into a confrontation more extreme then ever before, would force the city into the same polarized state he is in.




As I said above, I'm not saying Two-Face would be the only villain in the film. But I think I've demonstrated above that he would do very well to explore a new theme in a Batman movie: Duality.

Not only could we examine Two-Face attacking Gotham through duality, we could start examining the duality of Batman, and examine the issues Bruce has to deal with more in depth. Such as the questions: who is the real person? Bruce or Batman? Which is the act? And does it have to be either one, or is it somewhere in between.

Duality is great theme of Two-Face, and one that could have been explored in depth with Batman as well.

Ok, sorry to be so negative here, but a guy who attacks both sides, is a wacko who attacks both sides. I dont see anything deep in that. Just a guy that attacks both sides of the law. What is so deep about that? What does this tells us about our society? What does it tell us about morality? I think nothing. Thats why i said that it will be mindless. Because i simply dont see anything to it. It would be the same to me if you said that this guy is a penguin and steals bird-themed art pieces. Just some obsessed wacko.

As for Bruce's duality and who is the real person, i believe that nowadays in the comics its pretty clear that the real person is batman, because hey, batman is a dick and all that and that is so "deep" and good writing. I beg to differ. I miss Bruce Wayne in comics nowadays. So anyway, to me the real person is the Bruce Wayne we see in front of Alfred and Rachel. The Bruce Wayne that isnt masquerading as a drunken playboy, but the real brilliant mind behind batman. Perhaps batman is a manifestation of his character as well, his angry, violent, dark side. Something like that for me at least. So i think that all that can be explored with someone like Catwoman. I think that the similarities and differences with Dent have been explored extensively in TDK. White Knight, Dark Knight, what more do you want?

 

[Infinity9999x]

Ok, sorry to be so negative here, but a guy who attacks both sides, is a wacko who attacks both sides. I dont see anything deep in that. Just a guy that attacks both sides of the law. What is so deep about that? What does this tells us about our society? What does it tell us about morality? I think nothing. Thats why i said that it will be mindless. Because i simply dont see anything to it. It would be the same to me if you said that this guy is a penguin and steals bird-themed art pieces. Just some obsessed wacko.

You're simplifying things. I could say the same thing you are about every villain. Joker's just a wacko who wants to destroy everything, Riddler is just a wacko who likes to leave clues after he commits a crime. What's so interesting about either of them?

And I thought I made it fairly clear how Two-Face relates to our society and morality. Two-Face is the reflection of all people, but forced to extremes. Everyone has a dark side and a light side, but in normal people the lines are blurred. The light and the dark coexist in one individual. In Two-Face, because of what he experienced, his good side and bad side completely split and became their own personalities.

See, in normal people, the good and the bad in us is intermingled. We act, and do things, that are morally gray. In Two-Face, there is no gray. There is only white and black. Two-Face is what we all secretly fear. Everyone has that dark side to them, and to be frank, we're all a little scared of the dark side in us, because deep down, sometimes we feel like it's almost as if we have another person inside us, something evil. Two-Face is our worst fear, in that his inner demons actually all came to the surface and actually formed into their own personality, and took control.

With Nolan's Two-Face, we didn't see any of that. We only saw a man motivated by revenge. Revenge is only one part of Two-Face's character, not the only part.

Besides that, I thought there was much to explore with the dynamic between Two-Face and Dent. Two-Face is a character with that's literally two people in one body. They interact with each other, and in some cases, fight against one another. We never got to see that explored.

And I thought I made the symbolism of his destruction of Gotham fairly clear. Two-Face is destroying Gotham at it's dual halves, turning it into two waring fractions, and because of this, turning it into a reflection of himself. Two dual sides tearing their body apart.

As for Bruce's duality and who is the real person, i believe that nowadays in the comics its pretty clear that the real person is batman, because hey, batman is a dick and all that and that is so "deep" and good writing. I beg to differ. I miss Bruce Wayne in comics nowadays. So anyway, to me the real person is the Bruce Wayne we see in front of Alfred and Rachel. The Bruce Wayne that isnt masquerading as a drunken playboy, but the real brilliant mind behind batman. Perhaps batman is a manifestation of his character as well, his angry, violent, dark side. Something like that for me at least. So i think that all that can be explored with someone like Catwoman. I think that the similarities and differences with Dent have been explored extensively in TDK. White Knight, Dark Knight, what more do you want?

Right here you've illustrated why I think it would be a good idea to explore Bruce's duality further in a movie. You just provided me with an explanation of who you think is the real person in the Bruce/Batman persona (and to be clear, I agree with you in your description of movie Batman), but, if we go out and ask others, we'd get completely different answers. Everyone has their own opinions on who Batman really is, and I think it would be interesting to further explore that, because I think at times Bruce himself doesn't fully know.

And I think including Catwoman would be a perfect idea to further explore duality, she represents the dark allure of a double life, she's the thing that would make Bruce want to be Batman more then Bruce. She represents Bruce's dark side, the desire to be Batman and be above the law.

Gordon represents the light, the good side of leading one life. He's the straight and narrow, lawful good cop. He's what Bruce sometimes wishes he could be. A normal man fighting crime in the lawful way, with a family and children, with no double life.

Two-Face represents the battle between these two sides that is going on between Bruce, and it shows how it can destroy a man. He's the cautionary tale to Bruce, showing him how, if you can't find a medium between your light and your darkness, it will eat you alive.

 

[gwynplaine]

Nada.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

I'm betting this has already been said, but I'd let Two Face live. There's just way too much that they should have saved with him for the third movie, just like Venom in SM3.

 

[the dmg]

I'm betting this has already been said, but I'd let Two Face live. There's just way too much that they should have saved with him for the third movie, just like Venom in SM3.

Problem is, Venom was never supposed to be in SM3 and Raimi killed the character for that reason (aside from the fact that he didn't like Venom/Eddie Brock to begin with).

While I would like to see Two Face live as well, and with Ledger's passing, there could always be a change in direction to what they would want to do in the third film.

 

[Mr. Earle]

For those who asked for a different face for...em...Two-Face, take a look at his guy. He looks exactly like the comic book 2Face. But he doesnt have the level of detail that the movie one has, the kind that makes you want to examine him for hours. I like both of them and would have been happy by any of them. Anyway, here it is:

http://img402.imageshack.us/my.php?image=1222728126881um5.jpg

 

[EHTNAMTAB]

Watching the Dark Knight again recently, i think i know exactly what i would change. unfortunately its quite large, and not an original idea. However, i think that the section of the film between the destruction of the hospital and the final confrontation between batman and the joker (excellent in itself) could be tightened, made smarter and overall better.

i say this as a fan of the film, but look at the tight editing and direction in, to pick one, the sequence where the joker attmepts to kill dent, loed and the judge. it's edge of your seat stuff.

Unfortunately the ending of ther joker/batman sequence is farily sloppy and the boats sequence, to quote mark kermode, is extraneous.

the problems are as follows:

-after immediately setting up two face, the sequence then drags attention back away from his charater and makes it all about the (excellent) joker

-the sonar machine is effectively a huge deus ex machina. its a way of batman finding the joker, without a great deal of effort. There are surely a thousand way of batman using his intelligence to find joker - perhpas based on a trail he leaves (he wants batman to be there, doesn't he?) or perhaps interrogating one of the GCU turncoats. there are numerous possibilities more interesting than, effectively a "find the bad guy machine".

-i realise sonar fits into the whole "burn the forest down" angle, but that could be moure personal if, after the rachel and dent incidents, batman arrived with full intention of killing the joker, but changed his mind at the last minute. it would also tie in nicely with two face - batman's free will vs his fate (the coin)

-the fight in the building is unclear. why can no one see the joker at the top of the building? why dont swat wait for batman?

like i say, the film is very good, but unusally, gthe third act is the weakest (there are hundreds of mediocre films with amazing last acts, very few near perfect with such a flawed final showdown) - that said the two face showdown was perect and i can kind of see the logic for not having a three way joker/batman/two face finale

deos anyone agree?

 

[Mr. Earle]

after the rachel and dent incidents, batman arrived with full intention of killing the joker, but changed his mind at the last minute. it would also tie in nicely with two face - batman's free will vs his fate (the coin)

I think batman made up his mind about killing in BB.

-the fight in the building is unclear. why can no one see the joker at the top of the building? why dont swat wait for batman?

Because its a movie?

Other than that, i agree with the sonar used as a deus ex machina.

 

[kyuubijavi1]

I'd make the movie longer

at least 10 to 20 mins more add a few extra scenes here and there and keep dent alive only cause he was awesome

other than that the movie was perfect to me, the movie tied everything up and left a small opening for a 3rd

 

[Two-Face=Badass]

I would only change a few things. First would be a line where in the finale someone calls him Harvey and he screams something like "Harvey's not here right now! It's Two-Face you're dealing with!". Would just be nice to see that his character name was not just a throwaway line but a name he had embraced.

Also, I'd make the finale in a location that lets him have a Dark Victory style "death". Yes, I know it takes away a little of the irony of the location of Rachel's death, but then the theme is clearly still there, and Harvey can easily come back.

Basically in my opinion I find it stupid that they killed Two-Face. He is not just a revenge obsessed character like fans want to believe, he had much to offer and still can.

 

[GregComicFan]

1. Make the movie longer and add in a few scenes delving into Two-Face's past and how he is a little "off" mentally to begin with (like in the Animated Series... how he is secretly seeing a psychiatrist)...

but then again, the movie is fine the way it is...but if there was an EXTENDED CUT, that's what I would want.

2. More references and hints to Batman's world and future sequels...like someone sneaking in some more easter eggs... mentions of characters from the comics, etc.

 

[Spider-Man '92]

If anything, I would've had a moment in the race for Rachel and Harvey scene where we have Maroni and his lackies laughing over Dent as he's tied there. It would've been a good moment for that sense of rivalry between them.

All that aside, nothing needs changing.

 

[Rasputin911]

If anything, I would've had a moment in the race for Rachel and Harvey scene where we have Maroni and his lackies laughing over Dent as he's tied there. It would've been a good moment for that sense of rivalry between them.

All that aside, nothing needs changing.

i didn't get the impression that Maroni actually knew about Harvey/Rachel's kidnapping. He even betrays the Joker after it happened, because its "too much craziness"

I think Two-Face wasn't explored enough either. Harvey was, but not Two-Face. The third film should have been his.

 

[Rasputin911]

Where, in any of my posts, did I say that I wanted a mindless action flick that features Two-Face.

Where, in any of my posts, did I say that I only wanted a movie focused solely on the relationship between Two-Face and his father?

You're drawing conclusions from what I say that are unfounded.

To begin with, it would not in any way be a mindless action flick. As I said, Two-Face would view not only the individuals to blame for his predicament, but all of Gotham. And he would go about tearing Gotham apart using his own influences on both side of the law.

No, I do not want the mob and the law fighting each other, what I would have them do is enter an all out WAR. Two Face pushes both sides past extremes. I'm not talking judges ordering swat teams to apprehend known mob hangouts, I'm saying Two-Face begins forcing Judges and Lawyers to enact warrants that escalates everything. Shoot on sight orders for anyone affiliated with the mob, forcing through search warrants for buildings and areas with no evidence, and then making sure the mob is there to ensure a bloodbath.

And the reason he's doing this, as I said, is because he's obsessed with duality. He wants to tear apart Gotham from both sides, the dark and light.

Besides all this, as I've already stated, Two-Face would use his power to start smearing Gordon, trying to dirty his name (you could also add the subplot of Gordon and Essen from Y1, and have Two-Face dirty Gordon's name that way) While at the same time forcing the law to enact extreme measures to capture Batman.

In addition to this, you could also throw in another villain, like the Riddler or the Penguin. This was just my idea for Two-Face, not for everything in the movie.

And where the heck do you get the idea that I think Two-Face is a guy who is motivated solely by his father. I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT. You fail to recognize that there is more to Two-Face's psychology then his grief at Rachel and rage that the Justice system failed him. Nolan's Two-Face is all about revenge, and as I've said, the character is deeper then that.

The issues with his father are very complex. His father would tell him he would beat him if he flipped heads on his lucky coin. Obviously it always landed heads. This planted the seeds for Dent's eventual obsession with duality and chance. Two very important parts of him. But I'm not saying, NOR HAVE I EVER SAID, that this is the only part to him. It's only a part of what makes him interesting.

And you're missing the fact that I only said I'd mention the father in a subplot. Bats would discover Dent's past while researching him. It was only an added detail I threw in there!

You've completely missed all the points I've made about Two-Face's character. There are many deep and interesting things you could do with the character that I felt Nolan has done. The entire Mob situation I proposed all has symbolic meaning to the character. It's the tearing apart of Gotham at it's two dual halves. The dark side (the mob) and the light (the law). Two-Face gains control and corrupts both of these sides and uses them to destroy Gotham. Thus gaining his revenge on Gotham for what it did to him, and turning it into a mirror image of himself. Two contrasting sides battling for control.

See, Two-Face is a reflection of all humans. We all have our dark sides and our good sides, but because of the trauma he experienced, his two sides have been forced into extremes that normal humans don't show. He has gone as far to actually separate the two sides of him into separate personalities, whereas we as normal people try to hide our dark sides, and not only that, but we blur the lines between each side. We don't limit ourselves to being only good, or only bad. We act in-between.

Gotham would start out like a normal person, the good side and bad side coexisting in one entity. Two-Face, by pitting the two sides of the city into a confrontation more extreme then ever before, would force the city into the same polarized state he is in.




As I said above, I'm not saying Two-Face would be the only villain in the film. But I think I've demonstrated above that he would do very well to explore a new theme in a Batman movie: Duality.

Not only could we examine Two-Face attacking Gotham through duality, we could start examining the duality of Batman, and examine the issues Bruce has to deal with more in depth. Such as the questions: who is the real person? Bruce or Batman? Which is the act? And does it have to be either one, or is it somewhere in between.

Duality is great theme of Two-Face, and one that could have been explored in depth with Batman as well.

Great story for a third film. Two-Face deserves to be the main villain in a Bat-movie.

I think part of the problem is that the Joker has many good comic arcs to draw inspiration from, but there are very few good Two-Face stories.

 

[copywrite]

Too many corny lines. And the scene in the courtroom where the witness pulls out a gun on Dent was ******ed.

 

[Caped Crusader]

And the scene in the courtroom where the witness pulls out a gun on Dent was ******ed.

Uh how so?

 

[Mr. Earle]

2. More references and hints to Batman's world and future sequels...like someone sneaking in some more easter eggs... mentions of characters from the comics, etc.

that would help establish the batworld so much! if only. We deserved at least a Harley Quinzel cameo.

 

[Infinity9999x]

Great story for a third film. Two-Face deserves to be the main villain in a Bat-movie.

I think part of the problem is that the Joker has many good comic arcs to draw inspiration from, but there are very few good Two-Face stories.

Thank you It is a shame we wont's see more of him.

that would help establish the batworld so much! if only. We deserved at least a Harley Quinzel cameo.

I agree, I was really hoping for a mention of her or Selina Kyle.

 

[MessenjahMatt]

I don't know where else to put this, so.....

One thing bugs me every time I see the film. When Batman is riding the Bat-pod for the first time and shoots at the entrance to some kind of shopping center, then as he's about to break through, it cuts to some random shot of Batman driving somewhere else for a few seconds, before going back to the previous scene and Batman finally going through the door. Anyone else notice this odd cut?

but yeah, that's the only thing I would tidy up about this film. haha

 

[[A]]

I'd go George Lucas all over Batman Begins and cut Katie Holmes out and put Maggie in t: yay hahaha


..just kidding, just kidding..

 

[MessenjahMatt]

I'd go George Lucas all over Batman Begins and cut Katie Holmes out and put Maggie in t: yay hahaha


..just kidding, just kidding..

How about the opposite?

haha.

 

[[A]]

How about the opposite?

haha.

ahhhh that's a bloody nightmare!!!

 

[gwynplaine]

How about the opposite?

haha.

Lolt:.

 

[myway]

At the end of the movie, Batman wrecklessly tarnishe's his public image, the same image that he's always maintained was necessary to inspire people; change that.

 

[I Am The Knight]

I don't know where else to put this, so.....

One thing bugs me every time I see the film. When Batman is riding the Bat-pod for the first time and shoots at the entrance to some kind of shopping center, then as he's about to break through, it cuts to some random shot of Batman driving somewhere else for a few seconds, before going back to the previous scene and Batman finally going through the door. Anyone else notice this odd cut?

but yeah, that's the only thing I would tidy up about this film. haha

Yeah, I did notice that. Odd editing I guess.