Endgame Official Avengers: Endgame News & Speculation Thread!

[Prettyricky]

I don't understand why a shot or two can take some audiences out of the movie or scene and not be up for discussion instead of dismissed as something like sexism.

 

[KevTravels]

It saddens me to see such reactions. People only consider it pandering because its not what they consider "normal". Its unconscious bias/sexism/racism, I can't even blame the people some times as its just so engrained. You'll watch 1000 scenes of white men doing amazing action/dialogue scenes together in the MCU and as soon as a women or group of women do something similar you'll question whether it was natural. Or say it looked out of place. Well no cheesedip it looked out of place because you are so used to being spoonfed male scenes that you think its the norm.

You are so RIGHT. They go berserk over a single scene in a film. I can't even fathom how they react to women trying to advance themselves in society.

 

[Baron Sammedi]

It's pandering when they do it not because it enhances the story or represents the movie accurately, but just to say "Oh look, we represented this group!"

There are no issues with that because that's who was on the team at the time. The women were not the only people on the team at the time. It was out of place and took me out of the movie. The issue with pandering like that is it is political in nature. Am I against more female characters and stories? Of course not - I loved the Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel movies. But that's because they focused on telling a good story first rather than hitting you over the head with a political agenda.

TL;DR - Please separate politics and movies. I may even agree with your politics (I'm certainly not a sexist or racist of any kind, I can give you my voting records and discuss my political history if you want), but fictional movies are supposed to be an escape from real life, not a platform to voice political opinions.

any manifestation of art is a political manifestation

 

[Baron Sammedi]

Of course I understood the real intentions behind that scene, but I thought it was amazing. Just seeing all those powerful women fighting together and kickin some aliens ass made me wonder how fantastic would be a movie just with Avengers girls

 

[KevTravels]

I don't understand why a shot or two can take some audiences out of the movie or scene and not be up for discussion instead of dismissed as something like sexism.

because they get overwhelmed by such things to an alien degree. Just as folks who simply couldn't fathom Wakanda existing within the MCU because it was in Africa.

All things should be up for discussion. Some things are pure lunacy or you can tell it's coming from a dark place.

Besides, it was only like 5 seconds. It didn't take me out of the film. I actually was hoping for more.

 

[Prettyricky]

because they get overwhelmed by such things to an alien degree. Just as folks who simply couldn't fathom Wakanda existing within the MCU because it was in Africa.

All things should be up for discussion. Some things are pure lunacy or you can tell it's coming from a dark place.

Besides, it was only like 5 seconds. It didn't take me out of the film. I actually was hoping for more.

It just felt hokey that in a big chaotic battle all the women in the MCU were in the same place lining up for a trailer shot.

Maybe it just comes down to timing for me,

Worked
- Wonder woman in no mans land worked
- wanda in avengers 2 stepping out to help hawkeye worked
- wanda ripping out ultrons heart worked
- black widow, wanda and okoye vs proxima in IW worked.
- pepper saving tony and the day in ironman 3 in armor worked.
- black window and wanda in all of civil war work.
Peggy shooting guns in cap 1 worked.
- wasp in the kitchen fight in antman 2 worked.

Didnt work
- Captain marvel fighting in her movie to Im just a girl didnt work.
- black widow fighting random security gaurds in ironman 2 didnt work.
- the scene in this movie didnt work.

Theres times where when natural and part of the story it works, when its just dropped at random times it doesnt. Just my opinion though

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

any manifestation of art is a political manifestation

Films are by their nature a product of the societies and cultures that produce them. On that level alone they more often than not contain some kind of influence of the peoples that made them's socio-political outlook.

And I state this as a person that feels that there have been times where I do feel that various "progressive" commentaries on things can and have been hamfistedly put into films or other entertainment. But the mini-tempest this small moment in a three hour film is causing baffles me. Especially since I think it's pretty easy to assume that a lot, if not the majority of those complaining about it are the first people that claim EVERYBODY else is too "sensitive".

 

[Ragnaroknroll]

The A-Force scene was a little on the nose but it didn't really bother me. These films have become such huge pop culture events. I'm a guy and as I watch these movies sometimes I sit and realize - I'm not the only one here enjoying this movie. That moment was not meant for me. And that's OK.

 

[Spider-Fan]

It just felt hokey that in a big chaotic battle all the women in the MCU were in the same place lining up for a trailer shot.

Maybe it just comes down to timing for me,

Worked
- Wonder woman in no mans land worked
- wanda in avengers 2 stepping out to help hawkeye worked
- wanda ripping out ultrons heart worked
- black widow, wanda and okoye vs proxima in IW worked.
- pepper saving tony and the day in ironman 3 in armor worked.
- black window and wanda in all of civil war work.
Peggy shooting guns in cap 1 worked.
- wasp in the kitchen fight in antman 2 worked.

Didnt work
- Captain marvel fighting in her movie to Im just a girl didnt work.
- black widow fighting random security gaurds in ironman 2 didnt work.
- the scene in this movie didnt work.

Theres times where when natural and part of the story it works, when its just dropped at random times it doesnt. Just my opinion though

Spoiler

So would this suddenly be less hokey if it was T'Challa, M'Baku, Spider-Man, Rhodey, Starlord, and Drax doing it instead? I highly doubt if this same moment happened and we got a collection of the characters named above anyone would say a word about it. Which speaks to the larger conversation about how sexism has been hammered into the audience to the point where audiences react to something like this in a sexist fashion. When it is a sausage fest, no one complains. That's wrong.

 

[shinlyle]

Of course I understood the real intentions behind that scene, but I thought it was amazing. Just seeing all those powerful women fighting together and kickin some aliens ass made me wonder how fantastic would be a movie just with Avengers girls

As with ANYTHING about prejudice, just in the eyes of the beholder. MAYBE it was pandering, but who the heck cares?!

Spoiler

It was a cool shot, and it's not like all those characters were shown on the other side of the battle field helping Doc Strange or something and then they suddenly teleported to the other side of the battle field to pose for the camera, or something! If you're so bent out of shape about ONE scene in a 25 minute battle, then maybe you're the problem. I say this as a white male who typically leans right. So, let that sink the heck in for a second! My daughter got to see all her favorite female heroes on the screen at once, and probably for the only time it will happen with that cast EVER! I'm fine with it!
Was anyone asking why Wanda basically OWNED Thanos harder than ANYONE during the battle? NO...because she is freakishly powerful, and she earned that moment! Carol holding back Thanos single-handedly until Thanos walloped her with the power stone was needed because Carol IS actually that physically strong needed to be there simply because we've seen Hulk go toe-to-toe with Thanos at peak power with two arms, and a damaged one-armed Hulk wouldn't be much better in a fight.
Also, before the "A-Force Shot", We saw Black Panther and Spider-man (the new hope for wave 4, by the way) carrying the gauntlet and shining brightly, so why did the ladies offend everyone? The 15-16 year-old kid making it across the battlefield when he can't web-swing...is that more believable?!
Seriously, I think people have to complain about something, or they will cease to function. Just enjoy the movie...or don't. Free country and all that rot!

Ugh.

 

[shinlyle]

Spoiler

So would this suddenly be less hokey if it was T'Challa, M'Baku, Spider-Man, Rhodey, Starlord, and Drax doing it instead? I highly doubt if this same moment happened and we got a collection of the characters named above anyone would say a word about it. Which speaks to the larger conversation about how sexism has been hammered into the audience. When it is a sausage fest, no one complains. That's wrong.

Preach, brother. It's not like they

Spoiler

shoe-horned in a bunch of ancillary characters like 20 female wizards and 30 female Wakandans and 10 more female Ravagers. THEN it would be pandering! As it is, they only brought in characters we all knew and (until they were all in one shot, apparently) loved.

 

[Prettyricky]

Spoiler

So would this suddenly be less hokey if it was T'Challa, M'Baku, Spider-Man, Rhodey, Starlord, and Drax doing it instead? I highly doubt if this same moment happened and we got a collection of the characters named above anyone would say a word about it. Which speaks to the larger conversation about how sexism has been hammered into the audience to the point where audiences react to something like this in a sexist fashion. When it is a sausage fest, no one complains. That's wrong.

Except they didn't do that shot in the middle of a big battle, they did however with this and again it didnt work for me which is ok.

 

[Spider-Fan]

Except they didn't do that shot in the middle of a big battle, they did however with this and again it didnt work for me which is ok.

Spoiler

We have seen big battles with this same type of convenience all throughout the history of cinema, and no ones ever screams there should have been a woman in there. That's the problem. It's seen as a problem because they did the opposite of the norm. Was this moment fan service? Dang right it was, but it was the type of fan service we have gotten with male characters since cinema began. So it's about dang time.

Plus, it was awesome

 

[Prettyricky]

Spoiler

We have seen big battles with this same type of convenience all throughout the history of cinema, and no ones ever screams there should have been a woman in there. That's the problem. It's seen as a problem because they did the opposite of the norm. Was this moment fan service? Dang right it was, but it was the type of fan service we have gotten with male characters since cinema began. So it's about dang time.

Plus, it was awesome

I guess Ripley 40 years ago, the bride in her bloody revenge saga and not to mention countless shots in the MCU showing these women shoulder to shoulder with the men is a figment of my imagination? Again its not sexist to say a scene took you out of the moment and Again for me it is timing and placement in the film.

 

[Spider-Fan]

I guess Ripley 40 years ago, the bride in her bloody revenge saga and not to mention countless shots in the MCU showing these women shoulder to shoulder with the men is a figment of my imagination? Again its not sexist to say a scene took you out of the moment and Again for me it is timing and placement in the film.

Exception, not the rule. There is a reason why Ripley or Sara Connor is a film icon. It's exactly because characters like that were/are uncommon. For every Ellen Ripley you name me, I can name far more white male action heroes. John McClane. John Rambo. Martin Riggs. John Wick. Neo. I can name like 100 more easily. Do we really want to play this game? How many non-white dudes (excluding obvious aliens) are flying X-Wings in the original Star Wars? The MCU has began to integrate female characters over time, and it is wonderful.

Spoiler

So they deserve their moment in the sun as much as their male counterparts do.

 

[baerrtt]

Exception, not the rule. There is a reason why Ripley or Sara Connor is a film icon. It's exactly because characters like that were/are uncommon. For every Ellen Ripley you name me, I can name far more white male action heroes. John McClane. John Rambo. Martin Riggs. John Wick. Neo. I can name like 100 more easily. Do we really want to play this game? How many non-white dudes (excluding obvious aliens) are flying X-Wings in the original Star Wars? The MCU has began to integrate female characters over time, and it is wonderful.

Spoiler

So they deserve their moment in the sun as much as their male counterparts do.

And Ripley being cast with an actress only happened because the script notes stated the roles were interchangeable between men and women (something that came about because the then head of Fox, concerned about the lack of strong female lead roles at that period of time, suggested it to the production team).

Ripley exists because of the nonsensical 'pandering' these dudes throw about.

The issue really, and I've no problem in saying this, is that after decades of mostly white male led blockbusters, comic books, video games etc a vocal minority of poorly brought up, entitled or personally prejudiced dudes, and always online, seem to be awfully pressed that the fantasies they saw validation of themselves in are being successfully 'invaded' by women or POCs and what angers them the most is the reality that a majority of mass audiences worldwide, if they enjoy the product in question, clearly don't give a ****.

The scenes causing such whining in Endgame, both involving the bro boogeywoman that is Capt Marvel/Brie Larson, have attracted applause at my 3 screenings of the film and as I noted in another thread seem to be at other screenings around the world.

I grew up with alot of male led event movies, comedies, action flicks that treated female characters poorly which was often done to 'pander' to the male audience...here's the hot chick nude/semi nude/might as well be nude, needing to be saved, needing a man etc which to boys growing up viewing this stuff made girls/women out to be lesser in every respect. A 2 minute scene in ENDGAME that, whilst perhaps unsubtle, celebrates how far the MCU, and the event movie, has come diversity wise isn't going to detract from my enjoyment of the overall piece.

 

[baerrtt]

To make matters worse I saw a post on another forum claiming that Captain Marvel and Black Panther won't be as successful as Iron Man/Captain America when it comes to being the faces of the MCU going forward because the dude in question had never heard people rave about Chadwick Boseman or Brie Larson as much as RDJ......... BP, which made a billion worldwide and outgrossed IW domestically, and CM, which also made a billion worldwide and has now passed the likes of a majority of male led superhero movies at the box office domestically, aren't going to be successful faces of the MCU for that unscientific reasoning alone.

Honestly from this point on I'm seriously not going to bother correcting these guys.

 

[HammerDown]

 

[Prettyricky]

Exception, not the rule. There is a reason why Ripley or Sara Connor is a film icon. It's exactly because characters like that were/are uncommon. For every Ellen Ripley you name me, I can name far more white male action heroes. John McClane. John Rambo. Martin Riggs. John Wick. Neo. I can name like 100 more easily. Do we really want to play this game? How many non-white dudes (excluding obvious aliens) are flying X-Wings in the original Star Wars? The MCU has began to integrate female characters over time, and it is wonderful.

Spoiler

So they deserve their moment in the sun as much as their male counterparts do.

I can name dozens of actresses who played strong female characters in cinema. Just because they werent in an MCU film doesnt mean they dont exist with representation.

Jamie lee curtis
Angelina Jolie
Halle berry
J law
Famke jensen
Anne Hathaway
Sandra bullock

Just these alone have played iconic roles to some degree in cinema history. I can name more if you want but if your main gripe is superhero films then you win that round but lets not pretend in cinema as a whole there aren't a-lot of strong memorable female characters.

 

[Baron Sammedi]

I am literally crying when I see all this acceptance with ethnic and gender diversification. I live in Brazil and I can say with certainty that here in the country we live in a tough and reluctant moment to progress. it's a cool breeze to read that MCU fans are ready to embrace the idea of diversity in the movies.

 

[COCOS]

I’m thinking most probably aren’t plot holes but nitpicks.

nitpicks is something like the rat who basically saved ant man & the reason why there's a movie...i guess the russos just did it for whatever reason...but i give them a pass,
plot hole is about the whole time travel stuff,if u want to find some plot issues in endgame u will find it...but do most fans want to look for it ? aint no problem admitting it.....

 

[Spider-Fan]

I can name dozens of actresses who played strong female characters in cinema. Just because they werent in an MCU film doesnt mean they dont exist with representation.

Jamie lee curtis
Angelina Jolie
Halle berry
J law
Famke jensen
Anne Hathaway
Sandra bullock

Just these alone have played iconic roles to some degree in cinema history. I can name more if you want but if your main gripe is superhero films then you win that round but lets not pretend in cinema as a whole there aren't a-lot of strong memorable female characters.

I never said anything even remotely resembling this argument. So you're either purposely trying to change the argument or you are completely missing my point. Now, what I did say is the list of strong women roles (especially in action films) is much smaller than those of men. Which is not even a real debate. Also, many of these stronger female characters are much more recent creations. So times are changing and they're changing for the better. But that is not the core argument at play here. The real question is,

Spoiler

why is it when in a battle sequence large groups of men accomplishing a task is awesome while people want to make a group of women doing it out to be a crime against cinema? The answer is simple: we're more used to seeing men in these types than women, and change is scary to people. It's an inherently sexist view. There is no way around that fact.

I mean, if you want to do lists of sex vs sex and shift the argument in that direction, we can do that. I am going to win though. But to counter your list:

Mel Gibson
Arnold Schwarzennager
Sylvester Stallone
Mel Gibson
Keanu Reeves
Kurt Russell
Jean-Claude Van Damme
Jason Statham
Dwayne Johnson
Daniel Craig
Sean Connery
Roger Moore
Pierce Brosnan
Hugh Jackman
Robert Downey Jr.
Chris Evans
Vin Diesal
Paul Walker
Mark Hammel
Harrison Ford
Russell Crowe
Henry Cavill
Ben Affleck
Aaron Eckhart
James McAvoy
Bruce Willis


This list took me 5 seconds. I can name like 100 more. Also most of these dudes have played multiple action heroes. Doesn't seem fair representation for what amounts to at least 50% of our population, does it? Thankfully this is starting to change, though. Even if there is the occasional push back to this progress.

 

[Shuri]

It didn't take me out of the film. I actually was hoping for more.

Yeah, that scene was too short for me.

 

[Spider-Fan]

To also add to my above post, it to me is sad that there even needs to be a "SJW" agenda to push at all. Why can't female characters being awesome just be normal? Why does it need to be something a company like Marvel Studios have to make a point to have fan servicey moments with the ladies? It's because as cultural, it is not normal yet. That's a problem that needs addressed, and if no one is creating moments like the one in discussion here, then we're doing nothing as a society to push this forward. So I applaud Marvel Studios for making the strides that they are. Until we're at a point where this gap no longer exists, I welcome such fan service that pushes us forward.

 

[Shuri]

Didnt work

- black widow fighting random security gaurds in ironman 2 didnt work.