Official JLA discussion thread - Part 2

[Tron Bonne]

Everything I've read from him outside of Hellblazer has been dreadfully mediocre.

What have you read? Milligan is pretty balls to the wall awesome when he's on his game

 

[hippie_hunter]

You could trade wait on it to save money hippie hunter

I typically don't do trades. I'll wait for a few Ultimate Hardcovers for books like Invicible and tge Walking Dead or get Omnibuses for books in my collection that I fear are too fragile like New Teen Titans, but I overall avoid trades like the plague. I think the upcoming Before Watchmen books are going to be the first books I plan on trade waiting in years.

 

[Czar Colossus]

It's a clear sign that Johns does not understand Captain Marvel-which he never has, actually. But the real Captain Marvel hasn't appeared since COIE anyway-all Post-Crisis versions have gotten the character wrong, even Jerry Ordway's well meant and well done series. Captain Marvel is not Billy Batson in an adult body. They are two separate individuals who have a shared consciousness. They consider one another to be different people. That's where they got the character off track, which was actually in Roy Thomas Shazam: A New Beginning series, and then in the Giffen/DeMatteis Justice League.

Essentially, however, DC killed Captain Marvel with the lawsuit in the 50's and the character has never recovered and will never recover. All that is left of the Marvel Family is Black Adam as a Namor rip-off.

Actually I really liked Ordway's take on Cap. The relationship between the two in the Golden Age always seemed to be ambiguous though Billy always did refer to Cap in the third person. Personally I feel it works best when he is portrayed as Billy in an adult body. Alex Ross got it perfect in Kingdom Come (as a matter of fact , he should have been given this SHAZAM project). The things that I felt worked that will now surely be lost are how Cap's physical appearance is an homage to Billy's deceased father (Power of SHAZAM GN) and how Superman was idolized by Billy and could somehow be a mentor as well as an inspiration (First Thunder mini). That was touched on somewhat in the DC animated short "The Return of Black Adam" but the comics never really ran with it. As a matter of fact unfortunately the Trials of SHAZAM story really made a mess of things, but now I'm afraid that this New 52 version may ultimately be worse; I really hope I'm wrong. I guess we'll see soon enough.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Personally, I never really got into Captain Marvel. I'll take the Man of Steel over the Big Red Cheese any day.

 

[Anubis]

It's always one or the other with some people. Why not both?

 

[Godzilla2014]

It's always one or the other with some people. Why not both?

Because I like Superman, and I never really knew Captain Marvel that well.
That, and Superman looks much cooler, and his character is more interesting than what I've heard of Captain Marvel.

 

[Anubis]

Going by the fact that you haven't really read anything with Captain Marv in it.

 

[Godzilla2014]

Going by the fact that you haven't really read anything with Captain Marv in it.

I'll concede this, but I haven't honestly heard much about Captain Marvel that interests me.

 

[Mystirious]

I typically don't do trades. I'll wait for a few Ultimate Hardcovers for books like Invicible and tge Walking Dead or get Omnibuses for books in my collection that I fear are too fragile like New Teen Titans, but I overall avoid trades like the plague. I think the upcoming Before Watchmen books are going to be the first books I plan on trade waiting in years.

Ah that's fair enough. I like to get single issues for most comic books too rather than trade waiting

What have you read? Milligan is pretty balls to the wall awesome when he's on his game

I really dig his stuff Both at vertigo and his superhero stories and i can't wait to check out his work on Stormwatch

 

[Anubis]

The thing that hurts Marv is the same reason why DC has never been able to do anything with him. The character got so popular at one point, he surpassed Superman. So they sued him into oblivion. By the time they bought the character, Superman had years of character development, study, deconstruction, etc where as Marv was pretty much untouched.

Had DC not overacted, Marv might be as well loved by pop culture as Supes. Instead, he's a shadow of his former self. No generation of writers grew up reading about him so they could dream up awesome contemporary stories exploring the virtues of the big red cheese, and to top it all off, they can't even use his real name. Quite frankly, DC is getting what they deserve with their inability to sell the character these days and it's a shame cuz the character is awesome, has lots of potential, and will suffer due to the greed of long dead *****e bags.

At least his catchphrase caught on.

 

[Mystirious]

We'll always have the golden age stories at least 'Nubsy

And Monster Society of Evil that was amazing

 

[Kurosawa]

What about Jeff Smith's mini?

He got it right, but Geoff Johns is no Jeff Smith. He's not ever Geoff Johns half the time.

Actually I really liked Ordway's take on Cap. The relationship between the two in the Golden Age always seemed to be ambiguous though Billy always did refer to Cap in the third person. Personally I feel it works best when he is portrayed as Billy in an adult body. Alex Ross got it perfect in Kingdom Come (as a matter of fact , he should have been given this SHAZAM project). The things that I felt worked that will now surely be lost are how Cap's physical appearance is an homage to Billy's deceased father (Power of SHAZAM GN) and how Superman was idolized by Billy and could somehow be a mentor as well as an inspiration (First Thunder mini). That was touched on somewhat in the DC animated short "The Return of Black Adam" but the comics never really ran with it. As a matter of fact unfortunately the Trials of SHAZAM story really made a mess of things, but now I'm afraid that this New 52 version may ultimately be worse; I really hope I'm wrong. I guess we'll see soon enough.

I liked Ordway's series and of course I love Kingdom Come, but I have never liked Cap being a child in a man's body.

It's always one or the other with some people. Why not both?

I love both characters-Superman a little more, but I also felt what National did to Fawcett was a disgrace. Also, a lot of why Superman got so awesome in the late 50's and the 60's was because they got Captain Marvel's best writer when they wiped out Fawcett-Otto Binder.

 

[Czar Colossus]

Absolutely right on that last point.
Personally, I liked Cap and Superman coexisting on the same Earth. Cap's role as the one being on Earth that can match Superman's physical power, while being in reality just a child who looks up to Superman was great.
I like the Cap as a boy in a man's body because it is truly the epitome of the fantasy of childhood wish fulfillment. As a child the thought of turning into a being on a level with Superman was as good as it gets. You did not need to be born on a different planet, train yourself to mental and physical perfection, or be involved in some kind of freak accident; if you were deemed worthy a magic word could do the trick. I remember thinking as a kid I did not want to switch places with Cap; I want to say the word and BECOME Cap. It's like if you had a choice would you rather fly as a passenger in a plane looking out the window or would you rather have the actual ability to fly?
Also, as a kid he looks at the world with a childlike optimism (Wisdom of Solomon and all). If that is changed then he is just not the same character. I'm not looking forward to seeing them change his costume. When they went back to his original look (more military looking rather than spandex) it was perfect; changing perfection does not bode well. As I've already stated I hate the Superman redesign. Maybe I'm too status quo on some things, but some things do not need to change just for the sake of change.

 

[Anubis]

I've been weighing the pros and cons of the whole kid in a man's body thing and feel that it makes more since that way.

I mean, why bother choosing a good, independent, well mannered kid if all he's doing is swapping space with some dude? That worked for Mar-Vell cuz he and Rick Jones could communicate and he was kind of a surrogate father for the kid. Also, he and Genis had a big bro/little bro thing going.

With Cap'n Marv, it works best with the kid being in the body of a grown man. That way it makes sense why he had to choose an innocent when he coulda just picked anybody at random and gotten the same results. With Billy being Billy in a Superhero body, his virtues actually shine threw. It's him being the hero as opposed to just some magic super dude who's basically using him as a host.

 

[CConn]

He got it right, but Geoff Johns is no Jeff Smith. He's not ever Geoff Johns half the time.

Oh, no. I expect Johns' rendition to be awful.

But you said that no one had done Cap right since DC acquired him. With Jeff Smith, that's actually not true.

 

[Kurosawa]

I've been weighing the pros and cons of the whole kid in a man's body thing and feel that it makes more since that way.

I mean, why bother choosing a good, independent, well mannered kid if all he's doing is swapping space with some dude? That worked for Mar-Vell cuz he and Rick Jones could communicate and he was kind of a surrogate father for the kid. Also, he and Genis had a big bro/little bro thing going.

With Cap'n Marv, it works best with the kid being in the body of a grown man. That way it makes sense why he had to choose an innocent when he coulda just picked anybody at random and gotten the same results. With Billy being Billy in a Superhero body, his virtues actually shine threw. It's him being the hero as opposed to just some magic super dude who's basically using him as a host.

The Captain Marvel comics that actually sold and mattered had them a separate beings with a shared consciousness. That's part of the wish fulfillment of Captain Marvel-not only do you get the powers, but you get to be an adult-but then you don't have to stay as an adult. They share the same memories, feelings, opinions, but each considers the other to be a different person. It's a huge part of what made Captain Marvel unique, and like most characters, it what they have lost as every character has tried to emulate other, more currently popular characters.

I personally consider this new Shazam character to be a completely new derivative of Captain Marvel and not just the latest version.

 

[SuperFerret]

You're way too concerned about the money aspect of this stuff.

 

[Czar Colossus]

Oh, no. I expect Johns' rendition to be awful.

But you said that no one had done Cap right since DC acquired him. With Jeff Smith, that's actually not true.

I feel Alex Ross honored him best. Smith was O.K. and the Billy Batson and the Magic of SHAZAM that followed was entertaining. I do miss it.

 

[Kurosawa]

You're way too concerned about the money aspect of this stuff.

Success more than money. When characters are handled in a manner close to their creators intentions, they are more successful on every level.

 

[Mystirious]

I do think I'm going to check this new Captain Marvel story out but right now I'm cautiously optimistic at best about how good it will be

I really hope it is going to be good though

 

[trustyside-kick]

I'm not concerned because we haven't seen the costume design and we haven't read it yet.

 

[Mystirious]

Hoping his costume will be more or less the same as his classic look

 

[trustyside-kick]

I wonder if DC ever used their online game to make new designs for characters.

 

[Shazam]

Does the Crime Syndicate exist anymore??

 

[CConn]

What have you read? Milligan is pretty balls to the wall awesome when he's on his game

His X-Men run
A few issues of his Batman
Like an issue of his run on JLA Classified
Two arcs of Greek Street
First two issues of Red Lanterns

Nothing really impressed me. Greek Street wasn't bad, but even with that, nothing really grabbed me to keep reading.