The Official WONDER WOMAN Discussion Thread - Part 2

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]346710[/split]

 

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This is a continuation thread, the old thread is [split]225861[/split]

 

[Tron Bonne]

Well, I have no issue with the bondage imagery, but it's just one of those things that I feel has been heavily misunderstood for the character, and probably has something to do with why a lot of creators have this disconnection with her.

I mean, I'll be the first to admit that Marston may have been having a bit too much playtime with it in several regards (but I think you can say that for other creators on other works, frankly), but people latch on to it without any thought and try to shift into something else. And not just wannabe internet analysis either, like real, intelligent creators (Alan Moore is who I'm thinking of, particularly) seem to really dismiss Marston and his work based on that, and there's obviously more there than just "OMGZ bondagez" going on, and Marston was, despite how you feel about his sexual fetishes, quite an smart man. It's especially ridiculous when people try to spin it like he was somehow degrading toward Wonder Woman or women in general with it.

But, anyway, I'm fine with pants. I think it's kind of silly how some people have this huge desire for her to have pants (no one really here, but I have seen the sentiment), but I have no issue with them per say.

 

[Matt.S99]

Well, I have no issue with the bondage imagery, but it's just one of those things that I feel has been heavily misunderstood for the character, and probably has something to do with why a lot of creators have this disconnection with her.

I mean, I'll be the first to admit that Marston may have been having a bit too much playtime with it in several regards (but I think you can say that for other creators on other works, frankly), but people latch on to it without any thought and try to shift into something else. And not just wannabe internet analysis either, like real, intelligent creators (Alan Moore is who I'm thinking of, particularly) seem to really dismiss Marston and his work based on that, and there's obviously more there than just "OMGZ bondagez" going on, and Marston was, despite how you feel about his sexual fetishes, quite an smart man. It's especially ridiculous when people try to spin it like he was somehow degrading toward Wonder Woman or women in general with it.

But, anyway, I'm fine with pants. I think it's kind of silly how some people have this huge desire for her to have pants (no one really here, but I have seen the sentiment), but I have no issue with them per say.

Wow, really? I've only read the complete opposite. I see alot of people who dispise the pants.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Are you mainly referencing around here? Yeah, that seems to be the consensus around the Hype, but I've seen some people really want pants. Particularly at CBR, it's something I see a lot of support for (and before any possibly of pants came up, something they requested). I don't think they're a majority or anything, but they're out there.

 

[Mystirious]

Pants are the devil

You all know I'm right

And Marston was a very smart man nothing wrong with his fetishes either and they certainly were not degrading to women or to Wonder Woman I agree Tron Bonne

 

[Matt.S99]

I dont see the problem with pants honestly, or the new outfit in general(sans jacket). Hell, it looks good and while not very amazonian, it definitely looks like a modern, superhero outfit for her. I dont know, I still love the original, but I also really love the pants. I almost wish they were introduced earlier so people would accept them more.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I guess there's still a lot stigma to sexual bondage fetish (and in American, just sexual activity, in general) and the like to where I can see people jumping to that conclusion, but there's a context that's created where bondage isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think he was touching on the issue of balance and things like that (though he never fully explored it satisfyingly, but comics at the time probably weren't open enough for something like that).

I guess if you're one of those people who are just terrified of bondage or alternative fetishes of any kind, you'll see it as degrading regardless of anything. I mean, it's definitely something I think could use some modernizing and exploration, but who would be the write hand to do that under, I couldn't say. Morrsion, maybe,I don't know. It definitely gets a fairly undeserved bad rep, though.

 

[Mr. Earle]

So we re completely ignoring the fact that Marston was writing misogynistic, fetish fanfiction and is an overrated writer and we're pretending that he was good because he created WW?

I dont see the problem with pants honestly, or the new outfit in general(sans jacket). Hell, it looks good and while not very amazonian, it definitely looks like a modern, superhero outfit for her. I dont know, I still love the original, but I also really love the pants. I almost wish they were introduced earlier so people would accept them more.

I agree with you.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I dont see the problem with pants honestly, or the new outfit in general(sans jacket). Hell, it looks good and while not very amazonian, it definitely looks like a modern, superhero outfit for her. I dont know, I still love the original, but I also really love the pants. I almost wish they were introduced earlier so people would accept them more.

My general problem with the current outfit isn't the pants as much as the very bland overall look of it. I like that Wonder Woman has a very exotic look, like she just walked out of a totally different world. I know that terrifies some people who need to have their colors muted or whatever. That's why I tend to like the TV show's suit more for a translatable pants costume.

I guess the only reason I generally dislike the idea of pants is I feel it undercuts an unspoken aspect of the character that seems to be getting more and more underappreciated. That lovely idea of not being ashamed of your body. When done properly, the iconic look does not look all that ****ty at all, and really isn't a lot more ****tier than someone wearing short shorts and a tank top. As long as there's no sexual context to it, it really isn't all that sexual. Yeah, artists can draw it far more skimpy, but no amount of clothing you stack on her will really stop that (Put her in the old school mod clothing, and give it to someone like Ed Benes, and he'll find a way; he'll find a way).

Of course, wearing more clothes doesn't necessarily mean you feel shame for your body, but I can't think of a way to translate it another way, to be honest.

 

[Matt.S99]

Hmm, I cant definitely agree with what you are saying. I however love the top, if they throw a skirt/battle skirt/panties, it would look great. I think the smaller belt and breast plate are great.

 

[Tron Bonne]

The top is good. Just needs some brightening up and such, for my tastes, and I could live with it pretty well.

 

[Mr. Earle]

Hmm, I cant definitely agree with what you are saying. I however love the top, if they throw a skirt/battle skirt/panties, it would look great. I think the smaller belt and breast plate are great.

Yeah, i like JMS' bustier, belt, straps and gauntlets more.

It looks like a modern superhero suit but it lacks that amazon warrior feel. I'm guessing that it would look like that if they gave her a battle skirt and the big eagle on her chest, serving as armor. As great as that bustier looks, it looks rather... civilian.

 

[BrianWilly]

lol costume talk

 

[Tron Bonne]

Oh ****, so it is, so it is. Well, in fairness to me, it was intertwined with some talk of the character and her origin as well

Okay, so, to stir this in another direction; I want to pose a question to our local Wonder expert here. BW, the whole multiple Wonder Women through the ages, Promethea-ish idea in the last issue: Is it the real deal or do you think Psycho is screwing around with Diana and trying to shift her into something else and it's a total red herring? What do you think?

 

[Matt.S99]

Yeah, i like JMS' bustier, belt, straps and gauntlets more.

It looks like a modern superhero suit but it lacks that amazon warrior feel. I'm guessing that it would look like that if they gave her a battle skirt and the big eagle on her chest, serving as armor. As great as that bustier looks, it looks rather... civilian.

I dont know, I think with the battle skirt, the top with all the gold trimming would look amazing.

 

[Mystirious]

So we re completely ignoring the fact that Marston was writing misogynistic, fetish fanfiction and is an overrated writer and we're pretending that he was good because he created WW?

Marston was a good writer he was nit a misogynist

Bondage is not misogynistic. Many women myself included enjoy bondage and bdsm. It is not misogynistic or degrading to women

I see nothing in Marston's stories nor have i heard anything about his personal life to suggest he was a misogynist

Whether he was a good writer or not is a matter of personal taste though

I loved his comic books with so much love

If you did not enjoy them that is fair enough

No comic book is going to be to everyones taste

The same holds true for any work of fiction

 

[Mystirious]

Okay, so, to stir this in another direction; I want to pose a question to our local Wonder expert here. BW, the whole multiple Wonder Women through the ages, Promethea-ish idea in the last issue: Is it the real deal or do you think Psycho is screwing around with Diana and trying to shift her into something else and it's a total red herring? What do you think?

Oh snap never thought of that

Psycho seemed pretty genuine though

Think the creepy little nutcase really does love Wonder Woman in a weird way

 

[Mr. Earle]

Bondage isnt misogynistic, his writing was. At least from what i've seen.

But other than that, yeah it was pure fetish fuel.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Oh, Mysti, you took the bait, dear. You surely know to ignore everything he says about Wonder Woman by now (or, well, anything at this point)? Flame baiting statements like that and his 'My opinion is blind, but it's still my opinion, so I can have it and when you contradict it your an opinion Nazi' stuff (I'll take odds he puts up some stupid picture with something in regards to that after this, too) is why I put him on my ignore list and haven't seen a post by him outside via quotes, and it just makes this place better. Mr. Earle argues like Mr. Magoo drives. So, just get stay off the roads.

 

[Mystirious]

Some of it is dated but it was written in the forties and fifties

Did not seem misogynistic to me

lol costume talk

This should be your user title above your Wonder Woman avatar

 

[Tron Bonne]

Oh snap never thought of that

Psycho seemed pretty genuine though

Think the creepy little nutcase really does love Wonder Woman in a weird way

Yeah, I don't know. I'm mainly skeptical because Psyhco's powers have never been portrayed in this matter than I know of (seeing through not only the illusion of this reality, but seeing the entire apparent WW mythos through time), and the end of the issue seems like a big red light for me. I don't know, just kind of a theory and all, though BW might have a thought on it. He's our Wonder Boy, after all.

 

[Mystirious]

Yeah, I don't know. I'm mainly skeptical because Psyhco's powers have never been portrayed in this matter than I know of (seeing through not only the illusion of this reality, but seeing the entire apparent WW mythos through time), and the end of the issue seems like a big red light for me. I don't know, just kind of a theory and all, though BW might have a thought on it. He's our Wonder Boy, after all.

It would be a pretty neat twist if he turns out to have some sinister plan going on or if he is working with the Morrigan

And BW does indeed be our Wonder Boy

 

[Mr. Earle]

Some of it is dated but it was written in the forties and fifties

Did not seem misogynistic to me

I guess time explains it. Old comics do seem silly by today's standards.

I wasnt trying to trollbait you btw.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Did not seem misogynistic to me

It's not, it's almost the polar opposite of being misogynistic. For God's sake, Marston essentially thought women should rule the world. If anything, he maybe favored women too damn highly. Though, it's not the first time I've heard stuff like. I've seen people try to twist those stories to make them seem that way, but no...it's just not really there. You can make several criticisms toward Marston's stories, but that one, just has no real validity far as I can tell.

It would be a pretty neat twist if he turns out to have some sinister plan going on or if he is working with the Morrigan

And BW does indeed be our Wonder Boy

The thought occurred to me, and I saw it mentioned on CBR by some people. It makes a lot of sense when you think about, honestly. It would take some kind of profound revelation to have Diana think of him as an ally. It would make the entire reincarnation bit a total hoax, so I think it would be a pretty dividing herring in that regard, though. I don't know, seems like it's too grand of an idea for it to be a red herring, though. I really do want to know how Psycho got this kind of power though, or if he had such abilities, were it was portrayed.