The Official WONDER WOMAN Discussion Thread - Part 2

[Tron Bonne]

Yeah honestly this is pretty unprofessional or well you can't take Wonder Woman redesign that seriously when they can't make their mind and September is closing in.

Well, it depends a lot of the context. If it is just meant as a riff on the whole change, then I don't have a problem with it. Despite all the little rolley eyes and such, the iconic look was going to come back in some form or another, and the very mixed reaction to the Odyssey suit, probably just made him think it'd be better to get it out of the way.

Though, if it's not just a riff and it's still something that's at the drawing board at this point, then yeeeaaaahhhh. If that's the case, I do think it just goes to show how directionless they really are in regards to the character.

And really, I know there's more than a few that are in that 'puts pants on them legs, jimbo' camp, but it feels just odd to have a reboot/relaunch with Wonder Woman removed from her look while most of the other icons have theirs (They've all been seamed and armored up kind of horribly, but still). It feels just much more right to have the classic bare legged motif that the character was made to have. So, I really hope it's just a playful riff and the shorts remain, at least for a little while in this title even if they try to switch her back to pants for JL or anything like that.

 

[Green Ghost]

And really, I know there's more than a few that are in that 'puts pants on them legs, jimbo' camp, but it feels just odd to have a reboot/relaunch with Wonder Woman removed from her look while most of the other icons have theirs (They've all been seamed and armored up kind of horribly, but still). It feels just much more right to have the classic bare legged motif that the character was made to have.

I know what you mean, but Wonder Woman needed more fixes to make her look more serious and contemporary then the rest. For Superman the most dated thing was the trunks over the costume and they removed them (thanks!), Flash just got more details because the suit works, same for Batman...but they should have removed the white gloves for Green Lantern and also the gloves on Aquaman.
It looks like they changed a lot with Wonder Woman, but she was still recognizable. Most of the elements were still there, the biggest change were the pants, the rest was little alternations and more muted/darker colors. And I think this changes work and she looks like Wonder Woman set in the 21th century...now the panties are a step back

 

[Tron Bonne]

You see, I actually really hated that they took out the trunks in Superman's suit. They helped to break up the blue of the suit. The belt does serve a similar purpose, but it's not really enough. Plus, much like Wondie's bare legs, I never really understand the hate for the trunks anyway.

And, you see, as much as you may not like it, the bare legs is part of her iconic motif. Shorts or skirt, it's something she was designed with and something that's stuck for 70+ years. Plus, it's a wonderful, albeit very subtle, play on the feminist undertone of the character. Really, I think implying that a women needs to cover her skin, especially skin that isn't inherent sexual in nature, is much more a jump back for the character than putting her in shorts (We were suppose to laugh at the women who pointed at Wonder Woman and called her a hussy in Marston's original stories for not fearing skin, not agree with them). As far as seriousness goes...well, if people can take a man dressing in Bat pajamas seriously, they can take the panties/one piece seriously. I mean, yeah, a lot of people try to rationalize it as 'armor' nowadays, but (whenever this silly armor craze moves on) it'll be drawn like skintight pajamas like it more or less always has been. I don't really see it as an inherent issue.

 

[Manic]

You know the thing I find amusing about Wonder Woman's ever-changing costume that nearly nobody has mentioned?

Lee keeps drawing that new tiara from Odyssey on Diana, but Chiang is clearly ignoring it in favor of her classic tiara.

 

[Tron Bonne]

I mentioned it earlier with the first sketch I posted. I think it's mainly just Lee giving his own flair to it, or just another change. The armband was even gone in that one sketch.

 

[Green Ghost]

You see, I actually really hated that they took out the trunks in Superman's suit. They helped to break up the blue of the suit. The belt does serve a similar purpose, but it's not really enough. Plus, much like Wondie's bare legs, I never really understand the hate for the trunks anyway.

And, you see, as much as you may not like it, the bare legs is part of her iconic motif. Shorts or skirt, it's something she was designed with and something that's stuck for 70+ years. Plus, it's a wonderful, albeit very subtle, play on the feminist undertone of the character. Really, I think implying that a women needs to cover her skin, especially skin that isn't inherent sexual in nature, is much more a jump back for the character than putting her in shorts (We were suppose to laugh at the women who pointed at Wonder Woman and called her a hussy in Marston's original stories for not fearing skin, not agree with them). As far as seriousness goes...well, if people can take a man dressing in Bat pajamas seriously, they can take the panties/one piece seriously. I mean, yeah, a lot of people try to rationalize it as 'armor' nowadays, but (whenever this silly armor craze moves on) it'll be drawn like skintight pajamas like it more or less always has been. I don't really see it as an inherent issue.

You have you're points and I respect that!

All this is normal for comic fans, but my problem is that I would like to see the general audience get a better access to her and realize that she is actually a good and interesting character. DC has done this changes because they want new fans and WW needs new fans!
Most of the time when her name comes up on movie- and other non-comic-sites, the reactions are mostly "uninteresting" and "lame", because most people only have the campy Lynda Carter show in mind (the show is good, but just not contemporary). They needed to update her for the 21th century and the pants are a big part of it. WW in her star-sprankled panties are iconic and she is a icon for many women and gay people, but most straight men don't take her serious. This could also be a reason why Warner is so afraid to make a movie, because it would be hard to sell because the typical audience for a comic book movie is male.
When the new costume from the Jim Lee Justice League pic showed up online, I heard guys saying that Wonder Woman looks "badass" and "cool" and I thought it was great to read that. I also showed it to friends and they had the same reactions...
I think that the new outfit could have really helped the character to be taken serious and get more fans. So the panties are a step back for me, because now I am afraid that people will see the cover for WW #1 with her in panties and high-heels and the see the same character they did never take serious. The pants, while not that big of a change would show them that something is different and maybe they would give her a chance...

 

[Primal Slayer]

You know the thing I find amusing about Wonder Woman's ever-changing costume that nearly nobody has mentioned?

Lee keeps drawing that new tiara from Odyssey on Diana, but Chiang is clearly ignoring it in favor of her classic tiara.

Im glad that Chiang is doing the classic tiara because it looks so much better than the W tiara when she already has W breastplate, W chocker, W armband. We get it. She is WW.

And I wonder why DC didnt try to update her skirt before instantly reverting back to the shorts. They seem to ignore that aspect of her outfit.

 

[Primal Slayer]

Some alternate sketches for Odyssy WW:

 

[Mystirious]

I don't see any problem with her not wearing pants personally. She's not ashamed of her body and she doesnt feel the need to hide it

I think her redesigned look is pretty neat and heroic looking and I'm glad they ditched the pants. The only minor complaint I have about it is the boots but even that's not that big a deal

Also no pants means less seams. That gets a from me

 

[Green Ghost]

I don't see any problem with her not wearing pants personally. She's not ashamed of her body and she doesnt feel the need to hide it

So did Robin, but that doesn't mean he should walk around like this in the 21th century

 

[Primal Slayer]

There are other ways to updating WWs costume that doesnt involve pants. DC knows how but they just refuse to go there.

 

[Anubis]

And what would that be?

 

[Primal Slayer]

A battle skirt. Donnas WW costume was great looking. The Amazons versions are great looking. Would look great for WW.

 

[Manic]

I don't know what's more ridiculous: that people at DC thought that giving Wonder Woman tights would improve her comic, or that some of her fans think giving her anything other than panties or a skirt will destroy her character.

 

[Mystirious]

There are other ways to updating WWs costume that doesnt involve pants. DC knows how but they just refuse to go there.

What do you think of her redesigned costume

 

[trustyside-kick]

I know what's ridiculous: that some of her fans think giving her anything other than panties or a skirt will destroy her character.

Fixed. And I'm not trying to directly insult any fans, but...well the quoted post says it all.

 

[Primal Slayer]

I think it looks fine. I was ok with the pants version though not in love with it. She doesnt need the choker and they need revert the silver back to gold. But I like this version/wpants better than Odysseys version.

I just want to know what DC finds wrong with these that they wont put it on WW permantly

 

[Mystirious]

That looks pretty fab to me

I am digging that costume

I don't know what's more ridiculous: that people at DC thought that giving Wonder Woman tights would improve her comic, or that some of her fans think giving her anything other than panties or a skirt will destroy her character.

I dont think it would ruin her character or anything but I prefer Wonder Woman the same way I prefer John Barrowman

Not wearing pants

 

[Tron Bonne]

You have you're points and I respect that!

All this is normal for comic fans, but my problem is that I would like to see the general audience get a better access to her and realize that she is actually a good and interesting character. DC has done this changes because they want new fans and WW needs new fans!
Most of the time when her name comes up on movie- and other non-comic-sites, the reactions are mostly "uninteresting" and "lame", because most people only have the campy Lynda Carter show in mind (the show is good, but just not contemporary). They needed to update her for the 21th century and the pants are a big part of it. WW in her star-sprankled panties are iconic and she is a icon for many women and gay people, but most straight men don't take her serious. This could also be a reason why Warner is so afraid to make a movie, because it would be hard to sell because the typical audience for a comic book movie is male.
When the new costume from the Jim Lee Justice League pic showed up online, I heard guys saying that Wonder Woman looks "badass" and "cool" and I thought it was great to read that. I also showed it to friends and they had the same reactions...
I think that the new outfit could have really helped the character to be taken serious and get more fans. So the panties are a step back for me, because now I am afraid that people will see the cover for WW #1 with her in panties and high-heels and the see the same character they did never take serious. The pants, while not that big of a change would show them that something is different and maybe they would give her a chance...

Though the idea is in the right place, it all just comes back to the fact that the look keeps coming back. There has been two times (three, if you want to count this one), in which they've tried to permanently (at the time) change the costume, but it also comes back. If the thing was so flawed and so unappealing to every demographic then it would have been discarded in the same way that Cyclop's, Iron Man's and Nightwing's original costume. Obviously, it's struck a cord and it'll remain in some form or fashion.

And let's just look at the sales themselves. Odyssey got its sales bump, but it didn't make even close to what the fourth volume's relaunch came out in, or what the end of Rucka's run saw, or even what the first arc of Simone's run saw. All of which were in the apparently less serious star spangled panties. In the end, Odyssey more or less just even evened out to what it's been selling for awhile. Yeah, it's arguable with the HC of Odyssey was at the number 1 NY bestseller, but I think it's even more arguable that other factors besides just the addition of pants that helped it reach that.

Really, and I'm just going to make a rather broad statement in saying this, but I think it comes right down to the fact that she's got part of the America flag on her ass. I honestly think that most people (not all, but I predict a large portion) really wouldn't have much problems with it otherwise. I would wager that if they took out the stars, a lot of people would be okay with just looking at it as a gymnast-like one piece suit (which it more or less is, even though the shorts are generally considered to be a separate piece, I think).

I don't know, it doesn't matter all that much in the end. They can try to put pants on her to possibly grab these men who won't take her seriously demographic, but give it a few years, and the look will come back in some form or fashion. I don't really worry that much about it, really, though I am glad that she'll have the more iconic bare legged, at least for awhile, for this reboot/relaunch. It's really only right that she keeps a degree of that iconism like the other icons.

I will also say, though, that I really doubt that pants are going to grab this theoretical demographic of men who can't take a women without pants seriously. The issue of selling female characters in a market that doesn't support them goes beyond the cosmetic, and there's plenty of heroines out there that dress more conservatively that have all the same sales problem, and then some, as Wonder Woman.

I don't know what's more ridiculous: that people at DC thought that giving Wonder Woman tights would improve her comic, or that some of her fans think giving her anything other than panties or a skirt will destroy her character.

Who here is exactly trying to argue this?

Fixed. And I'm not trying to directly insult any fans, but...well the quoted post says it all.

Interesting that you 'fixed' that statement by taking out the first part. You think that giving tights to the character is inherently going to improve the comic is ridiculous, eh?'

Some alternate sketches for Odyssy WW:

I think those were Post-Odyssey designs actually. I liked one of those Doran designs quite a bit:

It plays it a bit on the loose side with the iconic look, but still incorporates it to good degree. I also like that it has a very fantasy like edge but keeps away from looking like any kind of inherent warrior design. It also has a very interesting dream-y look to it that fits Wonder Woman, I think. My main issue is the stars in her hair, which I just don't really like or understand.

 

[Anubis]

Too frilly for my tastes.

 

[Tron Bonne]

It does sparkle a lot

It does kind of make me wonder what kind of story JMS wanted to tell post-Odyssey with these designs, though. I like the one above, but all of them have a more Amethyst relaunch vibe to them than a WW redesign.

 

[Tron Bonne]

Speaking of, they should have totally relaunched Amethyst for the reboot, too. I mean, it wouldn't last long, but at least she has a role in Flashpoint. Probably more deserving of it than half the **** we're getting.

I'd read it.

 

[Mystirious]

Speaking of, they should have totally relaunched Amethyst for the reboot, too. I mean, it wouldn't last long, but at least she has a role in Flashpoint. Probably more deserving of it than half the **** we're getting.

I'd read it.

I would read it too

DC have said they are going to be releasing more new ongoings and mini series. Maybe we will get an Amethyst series one day

The world needs more Amethyst comic books

 

[Nightrunner]

I like the new suit with the pants. I actually want WW without pants, but the new suit looks a lot better with them than without. Maybe its just me.

My favourite WW suit is the one she has in Flashpoint. I was reading her mini the other day and i totally loved it. Its too armoured i know, she's supposed to be a superhero, but i think they could use some parts of it. They should have hired Kubert to help with the redesigns because all his Flashpoint designs are great so aside from being a great artist he seems to be good at coming up with new concepts.

 

[Nightrunner]

Though the idea is in the right place, it all just comes back to the fact that the look keeps coming back. There has been two times (three, if you want to count this one), in which they've tried to permanently (at the time) change the costume, but it also comes back. If the thing was so flawed and so unappealing to every demographic then it would have been discarded in the same way that Cyclop's, Iron Man's and Nightwing's original costume. Obviously, it's struck a cord and it'll remain in some form or fashion.

And let's just look at the sales themselves. Odyssey got its sales bump, but it didn't make even close to what the fourth volume's relaunch came out in, or what the end of Rucka's run saw, or even what the first arc of Simone's run saw. All of which were in the apparently less serious star spangled panties. In the end, Odyssey more or less just even evened out to what it's been selling for awhile. Yeah, it's arguable with the HC of Odyssey was at the number 1 NY bestseller, but I think it's even more arguable that other factors besides just the addition of pants that helped it reach that.

Really, and I'm just going to make a rather broad statement in saying this, but I think it comes right down to the fact that she's got part of the America flag on her ass. I honestly think that most people (not all, but I predict a large portion) really wouldn't have much problems with it otherwise. I would wager that if they took out the stars, a lot of people would be okay with just looking at it as a gymnast-like one piece suit (which it more or less is, even though the shorts are generally considered to be a separate piece, I think).

I don't know, it doesn't matter all that much in the end. They can try to put pants on her to possibly grab these men who won't take her seriously demographic, but give it a few years, and the look will come back in some form or fashion. I don't really worry that much about it, really, though I am glad that she'll have the more iconic bare legged, at least for awhile, for this reboot/relaunch. It's really only right that she keeps a degree of that iconism like the other icons.

I will also say, though, that I really doubt that pants are going to grab this theoretical demographic of men who can't take a women without pants seriously. The issue of selling female characters in a market that doesn't support them goes beyond the cosmetic, and there's plenty of heroines out there that dress more conservatively that have all the same sales problem, and then some, as Wonder Woman.



Who here is exactly trying to argue this?



Interesting that you 'fixed' that statement by taking out the first part. You think that giving tights to the character is inherently going to improve the comic is ridiculous, eh?'



I think those were Post-Odyssey designs actually. I liked one of those Doran designs quite a bit:

It plays it a bit on the loose side with the iconic look, but still incorporates it to good degree. I also like that it has a very fantasy like edge but keeps away from looking like any kind of inherent warrior design. It also has a very interesting dream-y look to it that fits Wonder Woman, I think. My main issue is the stars in her hair, which I just don't really like or understand.

Odyssey must have sold so well because of all the hype the suit got, the advertisments, the writer's name, and because it was an event. I consider it a really bad story that isnt worth it the number's its selling.