Official 'The Hobbit' Thread - Part 5

[regwec]

celtic references can be found heavily in the design motifs. The designers have said this.

But where? Theoden and Eomer's helmets, for instance, could have been dug out of Sutton Hoo. I think people tend to use "Celtic" quite loosely, often just to mean "olden peoples". I can't think of anything specific that the Rohirrim had that evoked a Celtic influence.

Aragorn's sword is a long sword, Germanic is origin, yes, but I would hardly call his more "impressive" than others. It's a fairly nondescript sword. And honestly, I find it funny that you want all of middle earth to be more European in design, but call aragorns long sword unimaginative.

It is the way in which its "special-ness" has been telegraphed by making it big that I find unimaginative. I don't think it is specifically "Germanic", it is just a late medieval two-handed sword. It is a type of sword that is used by Aragorn, and by the Nazgul. Glamdring cheats in order to look similar. I don't have a problem with the geographic provenance of it, but it is a bit of military technology that comes from a different century to the swords of the Rohirrim.

I believe you're putting too much of a historical context into a fictitious film. In Lord of the Rings, Elves ARE foreign - they're "not of" middle-earth (ie: europe).

Are we talking about the books or the film? In the books, the Elves came from across the sea, but had lived in Middle Earth since before Men even appeared. So they certainly weren't "foreign". Added to that is the fact that the Elves were the cultural tutors to the first men. So there should definitely be a good deal of shared cultural heritage.

I personally would HATE to see a Lord of the Rings film where everyone shared similar design motifs like you're suggesting. We are talking about VASTLY different RACES here, not different groups of human Europeans whose biggest differences are whose rule they follow.

Don't confuse race and culture. I do think that the different peoples were probably intended to have cultural differences (in the books, for instance, the Elves ride horses without saddles or stirrups, and make more use of archery than other peoples. Their swords glow), but I don't think the differences in material culture between "good" races was necessarily supposed to be as wide as between different human cultures. For instance, JRR Tolkien's letters show that he imagined the Rohirrim looking like the English in the Bayeux Tapestry, and the men of Gondor having an Egyptian aspect to them.

the single edged blade is not new to middle-earth as we see the orcs and other baddies using single edged weapons in the original films.

So why does an Elven sword share a typology with an Uruk-Hai scimitar, rather than a man's sword?

Minus inevitable similarities that come with robes, I just can't see it. Perhaps you're correct that WETA found some inspiration there, but I don't see it.

Alright, but what about the composite bows and the naginata? I don't think they are really deniable.

Yes but you have to remember, the Elves are isolationists for the vast majority of their time and consider themselves to be seperate from and better than the other races. They're very snobbish elitist to be blunt about it and take great pride in who they are. Keeping their culture from being "contaminated" by a lesser race's culture is very much in line with them. And using your reference, it would certainly make sense that such a vastly different and "otherworldly" race would look different and in the case of Tolkien inspiration, not of European influence.

I don't quite understand your last sentence, but why wouldn't the Elves look European? They were effectively the architects of the (European) culture absorbed by Men and Dwarves, so surely there should be shared traits in their material cultures?

If giving Bilbo and Gandalf more european swords is the point of contention, I'll take it. Could Tolkien had envisioned elves, men and dwarves running around in the same gambesons and chain mail? It's possible, I'd concede even likely. But if that's the case, thank GOD John Howe and Alan Lee did their own thing, because for me, the designs of the cultures they created are a huge part of my love for the films. It would be a completely different (and to me, dull) experience if each culture were represented as similar as you're talking about.

I think you might be over estimating how similar I think they should appear. I think that Elves and Men and Dwarves could be as different as- for instance- ancient Greeks, the Normans, and the Vikings. They could have different fashions, wear their hair differently, and ornament their weapons and armour differently. But a shared heritage should also be apparent, not least because it is a part of the mythology. Clearly, something is wrong if you need to make Gandalf and Bilbo's Elven swords look different to all other Elven swords in order for them to seem right for those characters.

In fact, the cultural variations between these peoples depicted by Alan Lee or John Howe are perfectly acceptable. Weta seemed to take them as a starting point, however, and then exacerbated the differences for stylistic affect. That's fine in its own way, but I still think that the difference between an Elf and a Man was, broadly, one of quality rather than culture.

The cultural "other" in the books is clearly represented by the Haradrim, the Easterlings, the Wildmen and the Woses.

The Woses should totally have been in the movie, by the way.

 

[Marvolo]

Elves and men do not have a shared heritage. Least not in the way all of mankinds cultures on earth evolved from a singular culture. They were created by the gods very differently and while they live on the same continent they exist on an entirely different plain of thought and existence. Elves would not design things like mankind or dwarves or anything else in middle earth for that matter because they do not think or perceive things like any mortal would. They are immortal, etheral, almost angelic; and it shows in the way they live and in thw things they build and craft.

Dwarves also do not have a shared heritage either. Vala Aulë created the Dwarves because he was impatient for the arising of the Children of Ilúvatar (Elves and Men). He created seven Dwarves, and was teaching them the language he had devised for them (Khuzdul) when Ilúvatar confronted him. Aulë offered his creations to Ilúvatar, who accepted them and gave them life. They were made to live underground. Strong and tough. They dont think like men and while they coexist with men they wouldnt be culturally like mankimd. The only people in middle earth that should be culutrally similar and have similar weaponry are the different groups of men in middle earth. Elves, dwarves, and men arent just different cultures like all the cultures on earth. They are entirely different species essentially. Even though they inhabit the same continent they wouldnt do things or create things with the same aesthetics.

 

[regwec]

I mean shared cultural heritage, not racial heritage. They certainly shared cultural heritage, because we know that they traded with each other (which is how the Elves first got iron weapons). The history of Middle Earth is also packed with stories about the intermarriage or Men and Elves, and their friendships and alliances.

Aragorn has Elvish blood, he was fostered by Elrond the Half Elven (the other half was human), he spoke Elvish and he was betrothed to an Elf.

I fail to see how you can retain the view that the two "species" has not cultural interaction, even by watching the movies, let alone reading the books.

Edit: I have been looking around for some verification on this discussion. From another Forum:

Finrod 12-27-2004 03:10 AM Re: Were Elven blades curved?

Quote:
Björn Hellqvist: How come the swords wielded by Arwen, Elrond and the other Elves are curved?

John Howe: Why not? It fits well with their style of combat, and it's very Art Nouveau. Did Professor Tolkien say they are all straight? Damn, I must have missed that bit!

Björn Hellqvist: True; Tolkien wasn’t that specific about the look of the Elven weapons. When you say it, I can see that Art Noveau formed the overall basis for Elven design. Reminds me very much of Victor Horta, if I’m not totally off the mark.

John Howe: Hector Guimard. The Elves are supposed to be far more sophisticated, beautiful and skilled than we can imagine as humans. There is an elegance of line in Art Nouveau that is unparalleled. Of course, Eastern weapons contributed quite a lot - imagine the Samurai with a totally 19th-century Jugendstil culture.
. . . . . . . .

Beleg Strongbow 12-27-2004 09:53 PM Re: Were Elven blades curved?

Interesting post. I don't know who Bjorn Hellqvist is, but as much as I like John Howe's artwork, I think he was smoking too much longbottom leaf on this one. My grammatical errors aside, I still agree with what I said in this thread in Feb 2003.

To recap:

1) Glamdring was made by the Noldor in Gondolin. Elrond specifically mentions this. Why would all the rest of their swords look different?

2) The Sindar bought much of their weapons from the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost. They learned weapon crafting from the Dwarves for what the did make (remember that barrel of sunshine Eol?).

3) Tolkien makes a point of telling you that Orcs and other baddies use curved swords, and refers to them as scimatars.

These points more than counter Howe's suppositions about schools of design/art (which, by the way, are not evident in any of Tolkien's own drawings of Middle Earth).

Of course, this doesn't mean that Weta et al were "wrong" to make the choices they did, but it is clear that there was a cultural interchange between the good "races", and that only one Elf ever used a curved sword.

 

[Marvolo]

Regardless of trading their seperate psychologies are very different. The elves may trade and get iron from men but that doesnt mean they would make similar things. If you could teach a lion to talk you still couldnt understand it because they do not think like a human. Point is they may trade and interact but they would still have very different cultures and ways of looking at things which would lead to different aesthetics in their designs. Elves are immortal and see themselves as being above men. They would never think like a human or design something like a human. Not because they are pretentious but because they do things their own way. Their psychology would effect how they design things. The ethereal nature of the elves would translate into their designs and Howe did a good job of bringing that across. The dwarves are strong and tough and have grown up underground and their psychology is a result of that. They like strong solid things like the foundations of the earth. They would build things with this in mind. Its on the nose but it makes sense in the films. It may not be what Tolkien had in mind but it works and makes sense.

 

[Spider-Who?]

Regwec, all very nice thoughts. I enjoyed reading your responses. In my laziness on a saturday morning, I find that Marvolo's responses are pretty much what I would say. I'll try and respond to more direct questions/statements later. It's an enjoyable conversation

 

[DCW]

I'm kind of disturbed by your avatar Spider-Who?...

 

[Kane52630]

The Hobbit Trivia Challenge

Longing for a quest of your own? Test your knowledge of Middle-earth and its many inhabitants by taking The Hobbit Trivia Challenge! Score 10 out of 10 for a chance to win a special prize pack for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey from Comic-Con! http://bit.ly/HobbitTrivia

http://www.facebook.com/TheHobbitMovie/app_390417011022938

 

[Jackasscoley15]

Peter Jackson tells us how much of Guillermo Del Toro’s design DNA is in The Hobbit

[Guillermo] had designed a lot of the movie . . . I looked at his designs when he took over and a lot of his designs are very Guillermo . . . it was very much stuff that you would recognize from Pan's Labyrinth or Hellboy. It was his artistic vision and I couldn't make that movie. I looked at his designs and I said the only person who can make a Guillermo Del Toro movie is Guillermo. It shouldn't be me. I can't put my head into somebody else's idea — I have to generate it from the beginning. So really I redesigned the film pretty much. Some of Guillermo's DNA is in there — there were some things he did that I thought were pretty cool and I've taken bits of pieces of his stuff — kind of altering it and changing it as I saw it. But the film was largely redesigned.

 

[Marvolo]

I hope we get to see Guillermo's designs released some day.

 

[warhorse78]

The Hobbit Calendar Reveals New Images

http://www.comingsoon.net/news/movienews.php?id=93843

OH, what's March's picture, please tell please!:

 

[warhorse78]

LMFAO. I agree, I was like, what???????

 

[warhorse78]

Theaters Will Not Charge Extra for 48fps Showings of THE HOBBIT: AN UNEXPECTED JOURNEY

Good.
In this day an age when you even have to pay the extra 3-d surcharge for half assed 3-d , it's nice to see prices being kept the same.
Of course this has to do with the reception the 48fps got but still.
Too bad only a select amount of theaters will be able to play 48fps because i am curious how it really looks. WOnder just how many theaters worldwide will be able to play 48fps

This is what has me concerned. We all know about the LIEMAX theaters, how many theaters are going to try and entice movie goers to check out the new technology, when they just may have never had it to begin with. Will there be a place on line so we can check if our theaters are legit, or just trying to reel us suckers in?

 

[matrix_ghost]

This is what has me concerned. We all know about the LIEMAX theaters, how many theaters are going to try and entice movie goers to check out the new technology, when they just may have never had it to begin with. Will there be a place on line so we can check if our theaters are legit, or just trying to reel us suckers in?

From what i've read , the tech should be upgraded so the digital projectors can play 48 fps.
LIEMAX theaters have digital projectors so who nows. Maybe IMAX will upgrade their theaters.

 

[regwec]

Regardless of trading their seperate psychologies are very different. The elves may trade and get iron from men

I think it was from the Dwarves of Nargothrond, actually. In fact, didn't the Dwarves also make Aragorn's sword, Narsil, and the black sword of Turin? It really does suggest to me that, artistic preferences aside, practical items like swords were probably similar in design whether they were made by Elves, Dwarves or Men.

Narsil was made by the Dwarves, and then reforged by the Elves as Anduril. They added artistic elements to it, but they must have been using similar techniques in the smithy. Boromir's sword, which was made by men, was said to be a very similar design to Anduril, "though lesser in lineage". Glamdring, we know, was of entirely Elven manufacture, and the apparently human Gandalf could carry it about without comment.

Again, the only swords of a different style we encounter are the "scimitars" used by the Orcs and by the Men allied to Sauron. It isn't unreasonable to suppose that curved swords were therefore an innovation of Sauron's smithies.

but that doesnt mean they would make similar things. If you could teach a lion to talk you still couldnt understand it because they do not think like a human. Point is they may trade and interact but they would still have very different cultures and ways of looking at things which would lead to different aesthetics in their designs. Elves are immortal and see themselves as being above men. They would never think like a human or design something like a human. Not because they are pretentious but because they do things their own way. Their psychology would effect how they design things. The ethereal nature of the elves would translate into their designs and Howe did a good job of bringing that across. The dwarves are strong and tough and have grown up underground and their psychology is a result of that. They like strong solid things like the foundations of the earth. They would build things with this in mind. Its on the nose but it makes sense in the films. It may not be what Tolkien had in mind but it works and makes sense.

I think there is a lot of validity in what you say, but you are making a deeply psychological assessment that is difficult to extrapolate into a practical analysis of material culture. The interactions of Men, Elves and Dwarves, and the occasions on which they have fought together in battle, cannot be set aside when assessing how similar the designs of their weapons might be. You also have to consider the fact that a number of famous "human" weapons were made by Elves or Dwarves, and that the Dwarves were responsible for the creation of all of the Elves first weapons. There is clearly a shared tradition in the manufacture of tools and weapons between the three peoples. In a broader sense, you have to remember the historic and cultural influence that Elves had on Men: the whole history of the Numenoreans is really about this. Elrond and his brother, as the descendents of the man Beren and the Elf Luthien, had to choose whether to be Elves or Men. So there is evidently a degree of cross over between the races and cultures.

The Dwarves, I accept, have a more distant relationship with them, but our starting point was why the swords used by Elves and Men were probably pretty similar.

Regwec, all very nice thoughts. I enjoyed reading your responses. In my laziness on a saturday morning, I find that Marvolo's responses are pretty much what I would say. I'll try and respond to more direct questions/statements later. It's an enjoyable conversation

Yes it is, thank you both!

 

[Kane52630]

This is what has me concerned. We all know about the LIEMAX theaters, how many theaters are going to try and entice movie goers to check out the new technology, when they just may have never had it to begin with. Will there be a place on line so we can check if our theaters are legit, or just trying to reel us suckers in?

From what i've read , the tech should be upgraded so the digital projectors can play 48 fps.
LIEMAX theaters have digital projectors so who nows. Maybe IMAX will upgrade their theaters.

Yeah Cameron said it was as simple as a firmware update to the digital projectors.

 

[warhorse78]

Yeah Cameron said it was as simple as a firmware update to the digital projectors.

OK. So, my other question, what's March's pic?

Also,

Spoiler

how do you all think the death of Thorin, Kili and Fili at the end will be handled, will it happen at all, and if it does, will it be a real tear jerker?

 

[Marvolo]

OK. So, my other question, what's March's pic?

Also,

Spoiler

how do you all think the death of Thorin, Kili and Fili at the end will be handled, will it happen at all, and if it does, will it be a real tear jerker?

If its anything like Boromir's death i might get misty eyed.

 

[obin_gam]

yay first pic of Radagast!

 

[regwec]

Where?

 

[obin_gam]

Where?

second to the right on the lowest row

 

[terry78]

They're crazy if they ever fathomed charging for that 48fps was gonna fly.

 

[warhorse78]

If its anything like Boromir's death i might get misty eyed.

The only times I cried during LOTR, it was twice, in ROTK. First, it was when Gimli says to Legolas "I never thought I die fighting side by side with an elf" and Legolas turns to him and goes, "what about side by side with a friend" And then Gimli nods his head sadly. That got me.

And then, when the four Hobbits were standing in the court after Aragorn got crowned, and they were about to bow, and Aragorn tells them, they bow to no one, and then he and the rest of the court fall to one knee. It was an incredibly emotionally charged moment for me.

 

[warhorse78]

They're crazy if they ever fathomed charging for that 48fps was gonna fly.

But are you surprised that they tried? I still don't understand why we should be paying 3D if we can go out and buy our own 3D glasses and just use them. Just charge the patrons that didn't bring their own.

You know what I also hate what theaters do. This one theater near me, it's got screens of various sizes, some very big, and some that are not that much bigger than a home theater system in some rich tycoons home. But yet, I pay the same across the boards. I don't know about you, but I get pissed when I'm stuck in one of these theaters with the little screens, and get charged full price, for half a screen. It's BS. Those theaters should be reserved for birthday parties or corporate meetings, not to showcase blockbusters in, and if they do, should knock off 3 bucks off the ticket price. Just my honest opinion.

 

[regwec]

I agree with you completely on your last point.

It would actually be a sound business venture for theaters to offer whole-screen bookings at a reduced rate. I can easily imagine Middle Earth fans clubbing together to book a screen for a LOTR/Hobbit midnight marathon.

As films attain maturity after their initial release, and attendance dwindles, theaters could move them to smaller screens and charge less for entry.

They might make more $ in the long run.

 

[Destructus86]

Your guys debate actually put me to sleep