Official Wolverine And The X-men, Episode 12, "eXcessive Force"

TheVileOne

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All discussion for the 12th episode of the series will go here. For now we are dispensing of spoiler tags unless you deem it necessary for extra long reviews (Master Dread). The reason being, most people who post in this thread have already watched the episodes. Posters from Latin America here have seen most of the show. Canadians posters are watching it on TV. And now there's apparently a site that's legit streaming the show (is it really legit? Not sure).

Episode 12 revolves around fan-favorite, CYCLOPS. Yay, Cyclops finally gets a few more speaking lines. Since the start of the series, Cyclops has lost his will to fight and to lead after Jean's been gone. He feels that Emma Frost's abilities as a telepath can help him find Jean. Emma Frost seemed to be very manipulative toward Cyclops in making him believe she could find Jean Grey with Cerebro. In a previous episode, Emma was thoughtfully observing Scott as he sat isolated outside.

Scott's been somewhat uncharacteristically acquiescent toward most of Wolverine's leadership and strategies throughout most of the course of the series which is nearing it's halfway point for the first series. Cyclops has been generally unchallenging or critical of Wolverine as the leader, generally because it seems that Prof. X requested he remain on the team when he astrally projected himself.
 
Crap man...I missed it, had to go somewhere...VileOne...was it good?
 
It's funny, but this is one of the episodes where I just wanted it to be over. I really have no idea why, but much like the 7th episode (vs. Hulk), I was ready for this episode to be done from somewhat the very beginning.

The best parts of this episode were easily the Emma/Logan moments. Emma's definitely gotten the best amount of substance-character-fleshed-out-ness, along with Nightcrawler and Rogue.

Love Emma. Hope she gets an episode centered around her.

Madrox was a nice cameo. Though that shatters my dream for an X-Factor-esque counter to the MRD a la Peter David's 2005+ cast.

WOAH JEAN'S ALIVE! And she just woke up from her coma and doesn't know anything, including her name! Daymn!
 
Pretty cool actions scenes. The face-off cyclops had with arclight on the street was pretty intense. Don't know who's doing cyclops' voice but he's doing a GREAT job. Just fits.

Does anyone else find Wolverine's voice a bit overdone? He says everything like an angry brute, I'd like to think he's cooler than that.

Isn't Arclight supposed to be a girl?
 
I liked the Ep. I'm always a sucker for Sinister. Madrox was cool to see. Eps like these make me happy. It's the Wolverine solo ones I hate.
 
Since X-Men Evolution achieved it's greatness by it's third season, I waited for an appearance of Sinister. It never happened. But now, with the new show, Sinister makes an appearance and it seems that he will be one of the crucial characters by this season's end.
Definitely he's not that creepy as he was in TAS, but his character is done justice. Even Marauders are here, and you can sense that they are very afraid of him.

Did anyone notice, was it Clancy Brown voicing Sinister???
 
^ Yeah I think it was Clancy Brown's voice.... sweet

Best part? Bobby playing that Ironman video game. I don't think I ever saw that done in a cartoon show before!
 
Yeah this episode is one of the best

Ive seen this epi in spanish :woot:
 
Great episode!
Loved seeing Sinsiter, Archlight, Harpoon, Vertigo and Madrox
and Yay for some X-Men team action
pretty cool
but most of all.........
[BLACKOUT]Jean is alive!!!! Hooray![/BLACKOUT]
can't wait for next week


ps
so glad Clancy Brown is doing Sinister's voice, I loved him as Lex Luthor
 
We could still get X-Factor. All it would tke is for Madrox to be captured by Sinister. Have one dup go bad and decide to work for Sinister. The real Jamie is in lockdown somewhere and when he is freed can go be a part of X-Factor. I don't see this happening up it shows how it could happen.
 
I liked the effect when he hit his fist and clones came out. Pretty cool.
 
It had to happen eventually. An excellent episode that actually starred one of the central cast of characters, besides the star Wolverine. Sure, Nightcrawler has had two excellent episodes, but at this point he is more like a reoccurring guest than a member of the core cast. The core cast is Logan, Beast, Emma Frost, Kitty, Iceman, Cyclops, and Storm (in about that order). Reoccurring members have been Nightcrawler and Angel (with Rogue with the Brotherhood). At episode 12, we are almost at the midway point of Season 1 and near where most shows that have 13-14 episodes a season would be doing a finale (this show has 26 per season, like TMNT used to). It isn't a flawless episode by any means, and to some degrees suffers from some of the same problems of the premise; namely, that virtually no one is willing to call Wolverine out on his blatant hypocrisy. Because he's so awesome. It's like how no one can call Batman on his baloney, "because he's Batman (TM)". :o

It was also an episode that had the first good chance for Nolan North to have some impact on the role, and it also featured Clancy Brown voicing the villain of the week in a superb bit of casting; he isn't credited in the end credits, but TV.com notes him, and I recognized his voice easily (especially after finishing up a bootleg of SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN this week, where Brown plays Alex O'Hirn/Rhino as well as Capt. Stacy). Finally, the episode easily has to have the best fight sequence the show has had so far.

The amazing thing is, you are given a picture example of how little had been done with Cyclops during the one minute, 15 second recap. In that 75 second sequence, the show is literally able to replay 2/3rd's of all the scenes in W&TXM so far where Scott had a speaking line. 75 seconds covered his ENTIRE character arc, almost word for word and shot for shot, across 11 prior episodes (and some 220 minutes of material). Frankly, the only X-Person who has fared worse is Storm, at least before this focus episode. Naturally, it goes over Scott's "character arc" until this point, if you can call it that.

It also doesn't help that it reminds us that in the one scene where Scott & Jean were together during the pilot, what are they talking about? Logan. Scott had insulted him somehow, and Jean was angry about it, and then blew Logan a kiss. Much like in X-MEN from 2000, the pair are a couple due to maintaining comic continuity, not because they had any chemistry or feel in any way organic. Of course, that was 11 episodes ago (and, in terms of production, probably a year ago). Perhaps in hindsight (pun intended) the show's writers would have handled it a little better. Of course, it also helps the case to shove Emma & Cyclops together on the basis of, "Emma is far more interesting than Jean", which I kind of agree with.

So, yeah, Jean went ka-boom and Scott was a mopey mute mook about it (how is that for alliteration?). At the very least, the 75 second recap gets things back into focus as we return to Scott, who is actually out in public getting some coffee, doing what he does best; mope silently. There is a bit where the waitress is trying to get a reply out of him and I found it very amusing. His character design gets a slight retool; he's shaved but is wearing a T-shirt and jeans. In a way it reminded me a lot of how Steven E Gordon had Logan dress, as usually Scott wears button downs. Scott then starts to imagine Jean is every red-head he sees go by, which is a scene that thankfully ends before it becomes psychotic. Of course, in comic lore, virtually the entire reason Scott feel for Maddie Pryor was because she was a clone of Jean and thus looked exactly like her, which was of course as intended.

Scott runs into Harpoon, one of Mr. Sinister's Marauders, and after some optic-blast butt-kick, drags him back to the mansion for the title sequence.

I figure now is a good time to get into some X-animation history. The Marauders have never been animated before. The 1990's X-Men cartoon had Mr. Sinister's goons as the Nasty Boyz, who were then appearing in X-FACTOR, so they were trying to stay current. Vertigo appeared in the 90's show, but as one of the Savage Land mutates (which she technically was in the comics). This episode has her appear, as well as Harpoon, Blockbuster, and Arclight. Their designs bore a bit of changes from the comics, aside for Blockbuster who was always a hulking brute. Harpoon appeared taller and sleeker, and Arclight was a purple haired guy with a soul-patch (instead of a very "butch" looking woman). It was cool seeing these classic X-rogues animated.

As for Mr. Sinister, this was the first time he showed up in a cartoon since 1997, when he appeared in the second-to-last episode of the X-MEN show. He had been a villain for 4 out of 5 seasons and was among the best the show ever had; played by Christopher Britton, he always made the role his own with a creepy tone to his voice. As a kid, Mr. Sinister made a fast impression on me; aside for a Marvel Series 1 trading card, I had no idea who he was until Sinister appeared at the end of Season 1 and into Season 2 of that 90's show. On that show, he was easily the creepiest villain the X-Men ever faced. Magneto was more of an anti-hero, and Apocalypse was a verbose demi-god; Mr. Sinister was a pointy-toothed mad scientist in a blue leather fetish costume who was OBSESSED with two of the starring characters (Cyke & Jean). He manipulated the seemingly dead Morph, which tugged at even Wolverine's emotions. He was virtually unkillable. Above all, as evidenced by his origin episode in 1997, his aims were mostly for his own selfish obsession with science. He got off on causing pain and misery, and observing the results. To this day, I consider Mr. Sinister among my favorite X-Men rogues, due entirely to that cartoon series (and of course going back and reading material in trades, like the MORLOCK MASSACRE).

The writers/producers of X-MEN EVOLUTION stated in some interviews that if they had a 5th season, they would have used Mr. Sinister. It would have been interesting to see how he would have been handled in that universe. The 10th issue of the X-MEN EVOLUTION comic book hinted at an appearance by Mr. Sinister, but it was never published and aside for a 3-4 year old solict image that can be Googled, it doesn't exist. Which I always felt was a shame. The design on that image hinted at heavy anime influences; granted, the art was by UDON, which usually does that (UDON draws the STREET FIGHTER comics, after all).

This time around, with most of the writers & producers of X-Men Evolution on another show, they get around to using Mr. Sinister rather quickly; even in the 90's, he didn't even get a hint until the very end of Season 1. His design is back to the classic comic book style, but I actually thought the 90's AKOM design was a little creepier. But W&TXM's Sinister still looked like he should, and still worked. This time around he was voiced by veteran VA Clancy Brown, who is probably best known for playing Lex Luthor for over a decade in Timmverse shows. He gives Sinister a slight change to his normal "Luthor voice" but honestly, Brown is a very reliable foil voice so I have no complaints. Awesome casting.

There were a lot of people during the wait for this series who described the idea of Cyclops being on a team Wolverine led as being interesting, allowing then to swap roles. In 11 episodes, that never happened; Cyclops was just a mute, boring tool. In this episode, it basically happens full force. Convinced that bumping into Harpoon wasn't a coincidence, Scott believes that Mr. Sinister has Jean. Considering the villain's past obsessions with her (which the show notes is pre-existing and assumed the audience has a basic knowledge of it), it isn't an illogical theory. None of the other X-Men, especially Wolverine, believes this is so, nor believes it is a lead worth chasing down. Cyclops feels differently. Pretty much the only scene where someone comes close to calling Logan on his bull is when they argue about "starting a war"; Scott notes that Logan has started wars for less than finding Jean. Logan claims he'd never "bring the X-Men down with him", even though Cyclops more than likely was leaving by himself until Logan decided to visit his room. At first finding no information for Scott, Emma than tells him where Harpoon's allies Blockbuster and Vertigo are going. For her part, she wanted to help Cyclops while knowing it would irritate Wolverine. In an homage to a bit from the X-Men films, Scott steals Logan's motorcycle this time; in the films, Logan is always stealing Scott's bike.

Then we get to the fight scenes in the city, and hot damn, Cyclops is pissed off. While the fights here won't give SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN or JLU any troubles, they were staged a bit better and I believe I know why. Unlike Wolverine's claws, optic blasts don't offend the censors. Zapping people with energy beams has been kosher on cartoons since the 60's. Which means Cyke can blast Blockbuster through the street and it all goes by the BS&P board. Cyke then tracks down Arclight, who as mentioned has been redesigned for the show. Their fight in the streets is rather memorable and actually does a lot to show that Cyclops can be cool. At least until later.

Wolverine is finally convinced to aid Cyclops after some jawing with Emma (who notes that regardless if the lead turns out to be legit, losing Cyclops means losing an X-Man, which these days is a rare thing). Emma is probably the only member of the X-Men who almost, ALMOST, calls Logan on when he is being an idiot leader. She won't outright say something like, "Calling out Cyclops for trashing the city to zap one bad guy when you've burned down ALL OF CANADA over Sabretooth is the biggest load of hypocrisy since Magneto", but she does get in little digs. Quite why she is interested in Cyclops remains unspoken, although Logan digs at it. One line that did stick with me was, "He has every right to be angry. Scott is a good person in a world designed solely to crush good people." That of course breeds the question of why a borderline B**** like Frost cares about Scott, but of course that's been a tricky wicket since the comics. At the very least, it usually is more complicated than the destined, eternal love that is Scott/Jean (which, outside of Disney films, is usually boring).

So Cyclops invades Mr. Sinister's lair, or rather is led there by false information; Mr. Sinister doesn't have Jean, but is perfectly willing to trap Scott to get some extra mutant DNA to experiment on. In his employ is the other major guest shot, Madrox the Multiple Man in his classic Kirby drawn costume. Every blast or punch allows him to multiply, and amazingly, Scott lasts a good long time against him; my mouth dropped when he seemed to take down, like, a good fifty or so Madrox's. He didn't go down easily at all. Even in Evolution, Scott usually went down with one landed hit, so it was a bit surprising.

In the end, of course, the X-Men burst in to rescue him, which is fine. Team tactics = win. While it is helped by Wolverine never "pretending" to use his claws, the fight between the X-Men and Madrox is the best the show has done so far. From Kitty nonchalantly phasing around to Beast kicking people and Storm's wind tosses, and finally Iceman saving the day, it was easily the best fight the show has done that didn't star Nightcrawler. Mr. Sinister escapes to fight another day, and that's also fine.

Honestly, the major downer of the episode is in the final scene. No, not the one where Jean Grey wakes up in a hospital with amnesia, which is pretty much SOAP OPERA PLOT 101. The downer is the bit where Cyclops wakes up from passing out during the last battle. It is a downer because some things ring very hollow. The rest of the X-Men, especially Storm, reassure Cyclops when he apologizes for the ordeal with a, "You would have come for any one of us," line. The problem is, he wasn't, and hasn't. Virtually every time the X-Men were on a mission, Cyclops only tagged along because of Xavier or someone mentioning Jean. He only rejoined the team when they learned Magneto had Xavier on Genosha. He would have left again if Future X hadn't psychically begged him to stay. Virtually every other time after someone had to mention Jean or Charles to get him to shave and suit up.

The other downer is the climax with Logan chewing out Cyclops for the "lone wolf" mission, which is basically Mount Hypocrisy on Planet Hypocrisy in the Hypocrite Galaxy. How much so? The PRIOR EPISODE, Logan was abandoning the X-Men without a second thought and, for the first time, going against Future X's wishes to go investigate some obscure lead about his past. True, he saved a young girl's life, but had the X-Men been able to find him, he easily would have "brought the team down with him". There also was the little fact that Logan used to bail on the X-Men ALL THE TIME, and this literally led to a member joining the opposition in disgust (Rogue). Logan may be too focused on Rogue's betrayal to realize his inability to be a reliable mentor figure FORCED her into that position. Xavier tolerated all of the times Logan would abandon the team on some loner biker quest, but Logan isn't in the least bit considerate about Cyclops doing so? Not even ONCE?

In a way it is a surprise to see Logan like this. In traditional X-Men comics, Logan was always the one there calling the leader out when they were being inflexible or hypocritical. The best example was episode 3 of the 90's X-Men show where Wolverine grumbles to Xavier about going after Magneto while taking in Sabretooth: "How come we get to trash YOUR old enemy, but we have to go easy on MINE!?" Stuff like that is what has helped make Logan the superstar that he is now. But WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN in their zeal to make Logan the leader has taken away some bits that could have been interesting. Instead of having Logan lead outright, he simply takes marching orders from Future Xavier, which even Iceman would do. And when Logan, perhaps in trying to settle into the leader role, becomes inflexible or hypocritical himself, he NEVER has anyone who calls him on it as harshly as he would to another leader. Again, Emma Frost gives subtle DIGS, but no one stands up to Logan in any way. Not Cyclops here, either; after roaring through Mr. Sinister's lab, he basically sulks in bed with a "sir, yes sir" to Logan and it seemed very hollow.

True, it was the end of the episode so there wasn't enough time to do another scene, but surely there was a way to end the scene where Scott hadn't almost invalidated his prior 19 minutes of ass-kick with a knowtowing bit when he had no reason to knowtow. The lead for Jean was just as much of a lead as Logan "suddenly" discovering some random flashback in Canada and storming back up there. Unlike Logan, Cyke's solo adventure didn't lead to one of them joining Magneto in disgust. And all of Xavier's trust in Logan when he would storm off has paid off, so can't Logan at least cut Scott some slack once? Or at least pretend to understand? Maybe a line like, "Being leader isn't easy, is it, Logan? See our roles reversed? Think about that the next time you ride into Canada and insist it isn't our business." Instead it reminded me of "DOOMSDAY SANCTION" when instead of being a man and asking Batman for a better alternative to zapping Doomsday into the Phantom Zone (when killing him or shoving him into a normal prison were not options), Superman just acts like a youth and laughs the situation off so Batman can seem gritty and hard edge. I mean, JUST LAST EPISODE, Rogue showed up and would have probably collapsed into Logan's arms if he was there for her; but he wasn't, because he was exploring his past.

There was room for a little more pathos. Maybe Logan was harsh with Scott because HE wants to be the one to save Jean? Because he never thought Scott was good enough for her? Considering how much comic lore is shoved into the show, that triangle has barely been homaged.

Still, 85% of the episode rocked, and that is a solid B or B+ grade for me; nothing to sneeze at. It was among the best episodes of the show so far and it featured the best team fight sequence, and some of the best Cyclops battles yet. After 11 episodes of muted stuff or bare bones details, Nolan North finally gets to show some of the dramatic stuff he displayed as Raph in the motion picture TMNT (a.k.a. Ninja Turtles 4) last year to show that he is a pretty damn good Cyclops when he has material to work with. Mr. Sinister looked and sounded cool, and we saw some classic Marauders animated, as well as an allusion to the Morlock Massacre (they were chasing Berserker for genetic material).

The problem remains; if the writers stopped worshiping at the alter of Wolverine's awesomeness and actually had some characters question it once in a while, we could get some better character dialogue and some juicier scenes. Emma Frost is the only one who questions it, and HEY, she has had some of the best fleshed scenes in the series with Logan. In some ways Bruce Timm was guilty of this, having everyone knowtow to Batman on JLU (even when it wasn't always warranted), and that was a flaw there, too. I know the desire for team shows is to have everyone follow the leader and be a cohesive unit, but the hook of Logan being leader is he ISN'T a perfect leader, and aside for some jabs from Frost, a LOT more could be done with it that isn't, and probably won't.

And I will say that having watched SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, Greg Wiesman would have handled the Scott subplot better than, "11 episodes nothing, then episode 12 he kicks ass".

But, focus on the positive. One of the best episodes of the season so far, actually starring someone from the main cast, that included the entire team. Cool villains. Better fights than usual. While not perfect character pathos, there still was pathos. The question, though, is that after 11 episodes of being wooden, would anyone who wasn't a comic book fan or a Cyclops fan really be interested in a focus episode? My answer is no. But I am both and I deeply was interested, so screw the mainstream audience that probably just wants 55 episodes of Wolverine and Gambit. For one episode, or at least for about 19 minutes of it, Cyclops was the coolest X-Man around.
 
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Dread's righteous passion is delicious :D .

Dread wrote so much, and I can't respond to every point. But I'll say this. Logan in the last episode went on a short personal mission, not on a seek and destroy vendetta because he thought he did something terrible and wanted to do what he can to maybe make amends for it. It wasn't necessarily a dangerous mission of selfish intent such as destroying tons of public property and endangering innocent bystanders like Cyclops did, at a time when public perception of mutants is very low. Also, Logan didn't exactly set all of Canada on fire, more like a few trees and that was not totally his doing. He did save a young mutant's life, and he wasn't trying to find his lost missing love on a whim.

Deep down though, Logan has always believed in the team and supported it.

What Logan did to Cyclops was fine at the moment because Cyclops did need to hear it. His friends were there for him and they reassured him and encouraged, they played the good cop, which Cyclops needed, and Wolverine played bad cop which Cyclops also equally needed. As far as helping the others go. He was there to go to Africa to help Storm, but even if what Storm said wasn't true all the time, it is perhaps more a proper reflection on the person Cyclops used to be. And the thing is, when things go up in smoke, Cyclops does tend to act like this sometimes.

As far as Emma Frost, there's undeniably an ulterior motive to everything she does. Look no further than her conspiratorial look in the third episode.

I did like this episode because it felt like there was a lot more for more of the supporting characters to do. Even though it was a Cyclops episode, it felt like a much more well rounded episode. The action was good, and damn, love Emma Frost.

And hey an IRON MAN cameo. So hang the rules that we can't see characters popping up in this show or that show.
 
I think I like Sinister's 90s voice better, it sounds more creepy.

No offense to Clancy Brown, he is a great VA, but his voice seems a bit too normal for Sinister. It worked for Lex, because Lex is one of the most normal super villains ever, but Sinister is a freak. I dunno, maybe its just I'm so used to that voice coming out of Lex's mouth, that it will just take time for me to get used to it.

I'm also surprised Scott took Sinister at his word, regarding whether Sinister had Jean or not. Unlike say magneto, Sinister has no concept of honor and lies all the time.
 
I liked Sinister's voice, but yes it's a pretty normal sounding voice, whereas in the 90's version his voice had this weird kind of edge and twing to it. It sounded almost alien-ish.

I think as far as Sinister, I think Cyclops could see that Jean wasn't there, and I also feel in his admission he realized that Jean really wasn't there but it was more the thought that made him angry and he was desperate to do something.
 
Had a longer post before I got cut off, so, just to sum some things up.

*Glad to see that the antagonism between Cyclops and Wolverine was being brought to a forefront. I think it's clear that the episode was playing with the idea that these two are not only playing role they're not used to but that they are not especially good at them. And I agree with Dread regarding [BLACKOUT]that last scene between Logan and Scott. No way would Cyclops put up with that "my way or the highway" hypocritical BS by Logan lying down--and quite literally in this case.[/BLACKOUT]

*Clancy Brown as the voice of Sinister was a great casting decision. You can just tell from the way he delivers the lines that Sinister is not only dangerous, but he relishes having people grovel and beg at his feet. Even [BLACKOUT]without displaying much of his true powers[/BLACKOUT] you know this guy is one cold-hearted bastard.

*Nice appearance and excellent use of Jamie Madrox, although [blackout]seeing him as one of the Maurders takes some getting used to.[/blackout]

*And of course, there's the cliffhanger ending with [blackout]Jean not only being alive but having amnesia. Granted, it's a cliche, but my guess is that this is going to lead into this shows version of the Phoenix Saga, in that, in trying to regain her memories, Jean will tap into her powers once more and that they'll be unchecked, sort of borrowing from the movies in some respects.[/blackout]

Certainly, this is one of the better episodes of the series so far.
 
best episode so far for me bc it deal with Scott and his search to find Jean and
she finally reappears

Oh why did they go and have to give Arclight a sex change? Also didnt like the decision to give Vertigo short hair. Her long green hair was characteristc of her and created a nice effect when she used her powers
 
Best Cyclops ever!

Too bad
Jean's alive, i hate her
 
I love Jean.

But not this version. I can already tell in the 15 seconds total we've had of her in 12 episodes. So it's okay that she's not around.
 
I love Jean.

But not this version. I can already tell in the 15 seconds total we've had of her in 12 episodes. So it's okay that she's not around.
I dont really think theres been much to judge of her, (lol...like you said, 15 seconds) so I cant really form a concrete opinion of her, but she is my favorite X-men character, so I look forward to seeing alot more of her in the future

I really liked Rogue in the previews leading up to the series, but now that we are 12 episodes in, I can safely say, I cant stand her. Im tired of the angry girl routine and wish someone would tell her to get over herself already. She's a backstabber and I wish they wouldnt give her the time of day
 
Wolverine doesn't want to give her the time of day at least. And in her mind she at least has a reason for her anger.

Here's the other thing I want to say about Wolverine and Cyclops. This is not the same Wolverine and Cyclops from the other cartoons, from the comics, and what not. The same rules don't necessarily apply.
 

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