Old MCU Fantastic Four Discussion Thread

[wobbly]

With the recent Gemma Chan/Eternals news proving Marvel doesn’t care if they cast the same actor in two totally different roles Robert Kazinsky is one of my top choices for Ben Grimm. It doesn’t matter if he was already in Captain Marvel, especially since he was only in one very brief scene that was deleted from the final cut of the film.

I'd be on board for him as Grimm. Saw him in Second Chance playing a Ben like character there very well.

 

[Web-Head]

How much personal back story do the four need for an MCU film? Should they bother to get into childhood in any fashion? Upbringing? It has been done to varying degrees in the MCU but should this film do it too? Or is doing that for four characters overload things?

It would make sense for some childhood stuff with Sue and Johnny and depending on when Reed and Ben met, it could make sense there too.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

It would make sense for some childhood stuff with Sue and Johnny and depending on when Reed and Ben met, it could make sense there too.

I think that if any character gets that childhood or teen flashback it would be Reed, if the film puts a lot of focus on him. If it's more even in how the spotlight is shared something like that might be too ungainly, though as you noted I suppose Johnny and Sue are kind of bundled together.

 

[Crimz]

Reed's childhood doesn't matter. It's college with Ben and Doom that really matters and would need a flashback. I can see Sue and Johnny's childhood getting one if they want to mention the whole deadbeat dad and Sue raising Johnny thing.

Another option would be the team's first meeting as a flashback as that may be a better choice.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

How much personal back story do the four need for an MCU film? Should they bother to get into childhood in any fashion? Upbringing? It has been done to varying degrees in the MCU but should this film do it too? Or is doing that for four characters overload things?

Ben's arguably the "everyman" of the team, so I'd maybe start with him by focusing on his early to middle adolescence growing up on Yancy Street, etc.; and eventually the fictional ESU. This could allow for seamlessly segueing into Reed's backstory next, assuming he attends the same college that Ben does à la the comics. Reed should, of course, come off sharply intelligent but also friendly and approachable. Maybe insert a subtle aloofness to him as well, which could be partially attributed to his estranged relationship with his father Nathaniel. The culmination of this would be in later films where Reed makes the ultimate sacrifice for his family in a way Nathaniel never could, but I'm getting a little ahead of myself. Sue, I think is the second most relatable member for some of the reasons you mentioned above, and while I'm all for seeing her reimagined as a successful and accomplished career woman from the outset, I'd rather that she not be fully formed in the first movie. For me personally, there's something compelling about the character's growth arc as told across not just one but several runs in the FF's long history. And if the filmmakers can manage to give us an updated take on that, which at the same time speaks to the struggles a young woman faces when coming into her own, all the better.

Unfortunately, given the budget restraints one might expect from standard Marvel fare not to mention the challenge of maintaining basic narrative rules, I imagine they'd be hard-pressed to cover not just Sue's early years but also her brother Johnny's; this would naturally depend on how much time is spent on Reed and Ben's respective origins, though. The point being that four separate backstories in one film could feel like way too much exposition--even if handled w/ some finesse. So, again, it might be best to center on just two at most (not necessarily Reed and Ben) as far as early origins go, leaving the goings-on of the remaining team members to mostly unfold in the present.

 

[ArmsHeldOut]

On a loosely related note, I revisited the now-classic Fantastic Four vs. The X-Men limited series the other day, and it holds up really well. In just four issues, Claremont nailed the essence of the extended Richards family better than some who had literal years to do the same!

 

[Silvermoth]

How much personal back story do the four need for an MCU film? Should they bother to get into childhood in any fashion? Upbringing? It has been done to varying degrees in the MCU but should this film do it too? Or is doing that for four characters overload things?

I guess the marvel method is start with a traumatic but intriguing scene and then go backwards.

So say we open on a destroyed space ship, reed’s ears are ringing, all the FF are in disarray and then the screen goes blank and we go back to the day of the accident where we learn who they all are leading up to the cosmic wave

 

[Marvel united]

I feel like they have to do the origin story again if they are set in modern times. An established F4 doesn't really make sense. There Is no Baxter Building yet and the F4 are celebrity superheroes. The team couldn't have formed yet

 

[Detective Conan]

I feel like they have to do the origin story again if they are set in modern times. An established F4 doesn't really make sense. There Is no Baxter Building yet and the F4 are celebrity superheroes. The team couldn't have formed yet

I don’t see much need to retread the origin regardless of whether its in modern day or a period piece. Should they choose to go through the origin again they could pull it off in a non-linear fashion, and we are introduced to a FF that have recently formed as a team after their accident and the origin is handled in a series of flashbacks interwoven into the main story story(e.g. Batman Begins,) Or they could simply skip much of the origin; regulating it to a few media reports that we see at the start of the film about Dr. Reed Richards and his crew surviving the spaceship crashing, and acquiring strange powers(assuming they hew close to the 616 origin). The latter is actually my preferred approach. Marvel definitely shouldn’t dwell on the origin and try to make an entire film out of it.

Actually having the FF already formed as a team in their MCU introduction would be true to their very first comic FF#1; which starts out like that(they don’t have costumes yet) and the origin is briefly covered in a few pages afterwards. Even Stan & Jack didn’t think the origin was all that important enough to be the focus of a 16 page comic so it’s a wonder why filmmakers keep thinking the origin is important enough to have it be the focus of a two hour film.

That’s not to say you can’t make a FF movie work by telling a full fledged origin story but one always has to have a compelling reason to tell the story, or else it comes across as obligatory and superfluous especially in the case of Fantastic Four which doesn’t have a great origin story to begin with. It’s not a bad origin per se but it’s the type of origin story that doesn’t warrant a whole feature length film being dedicated to it.

 

[Antonello Blueberry]

Again suggesting Rachel Brosnahan as Sue. She's got the look, the attitude, the age, the notoriety.
And I was thinking that Jack Quaid wouldn't have been bad as a young Reed.

 

[Detective Conan]

After finishing Mindhunter season 2, I really like the idea of Jonathan Groff playing Mr. Fantastic.

He can exude that detached, but confident intelligence. He plays aloof really convincingly, but my concern here is that while he can nail the coldness of Reed’s character can he also play his more human, more loving moments? Regardless, I find him to be a really compelling screen prescence and wouldn’t mind him for Reed.

Also would dig if Holt Mccanlly was Ben(but he’s too old). So he can be the other Ben. Y’know the guy who happens to be the uncle to a certain arachnid themed hero.

I forgot this character’s name. Must be pretty unimportant then.

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I think that Reed needs to have some very in your face charm and be inspi rational along with projecting that cooly calculating mind.

I've said it before but to get a performer who will be able to really deliver a well rounded Reed is going to be a tough nut to crack unless they decide to go and lean into one direction with how he's written. Which simplifies things sure but tends to make things more one dimensiinal and causes myself issues when you ride a character trait so hard the appearance of another aspect can feel out of place and mere plot contrivance. Yes, people contain multitudes inside them but in a narrative with limited time if you place a premium on one aspect, say Reed's towering genius which can make him off putting, or his "nerdiness" ( not exactly the same thing as showing his vast intelkect BTW) or giving him a snarky attitude he vents onto all around him it gets incongruous feeling when the story requires him to do things opposed to what was established before.

I just want him to be a bit holistic and I definitely don't want a mere retread of what has already been done, say making him a knock off RDJ's Stark.

But writing that out on a forum is easier gmthan being in charge of those decisions in reality. I hope they do some hard thinking about Reed as a character because I fear it is too easy to latch onto a simplified view of what he could be in live action (Or animation as has been the case) and end up with a caricature more than a well rounded character.

 

[Silvermoth]

I feel like they have to do the origin story again if they are set in modern times. An established F4 doesn't really make sense. There Is no Baxter Building yet and the F4 are celebrity superheroes. The team couldn't have formed yet

A supervillain could obliviate their memories? Maybe someone like puppet master?

 

[KRYPTON INC.]

I would find that a big contrivance for a first film. Retrieval of memories also feels like it's close to the subject matter of Captain Marvel.

 

[Scarecrow_King]

I would find that a big contrivance for a first film. Retrieval of memories also feels like it's close to the subject matter of Captain Marvel.

I don't love the idea, but I actually think it works for a "first" film since audiences already know the basics of them from the first 3 movies. And it could cover the origin similar to the way Incredible Hulk did it. Show some snippets, but not have the entire movie revolve around it.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

Actually having the FF already formed as a team in their MCU introduction would be true to their very first comic FF#1; which starts out like that(they don’t have costumes yet) and the origin is briefly covered in a few pages afterwards. Even Stan & Jack didn’t think the origin was all that important enough to be the focus of a 16 page comic so it’s a wonder why filmmakers keep thinking the origin is important enough to have it be the focus of a two hour film.

Exactly! It's backstory. The writers should know what the origin is, but that doesn't need to be specifically shown to viewers. I don't really want to sit through an origin story that isn't a particularly important in defining who these characters are. They happened to be on some sort of mission that gave them powers. So what? Get on with the story we actually want to see.

 

[Crimz]

The benefits of having a universe is that you can have their origin mentioned or shown in other films, like in a news report or something. You could spend 5 minutes on the origin in the FF film and get to the interesting stuff.
The origin was like a few pages in the comic. Spending entire films on it are a waste of time and one of the many problems with the Fox films.

 

[Jordacar]

As iconic as Hulk's origin is, I'll never forget the relief I felt when TIH wrapped up its title sequence and got right into it. After the slog of Ang Lee's interpretation, skipping to the real story was the right move at that time. I feel that the biggest and most preventable bad choice in Amazing Spider-Man was going back to the origin.

So I'm of two minds about the FF's origin. We've had two FF movies this century that spent their entire runtime on introductions. But I also really want to see the MCU "do it right." I'm firmly in the camp of "show the origin, but get it done in the first act."

 

[Detective Conan]

Its astounding to think we've gone from this.


To this.

 

[BeserkerHilf]

To be fair, he didn't explicitly state whether that sky was in the MCU or our own.

Remember, this is also the guy who said they would ramp up marketing/reveal Endgame's title "when the dust settles" after Infinity War.

 

[Willie Lumpkin]

As iconic as Hulk's origin is, I'll never forget the relief I felt when TIH wrapped up its title sequence and got right into it. After the slog of Ang Lee's interpretation, skipping to the real story was the right move at that time. I feel that the biggest and most preventable bad choice in Amazing Spider-Man was going back to the origin.

So I'm of two minds about the FF's origin. We've had two FF movies this century that spent their entire runtime on introductions. But I also really want to see the MCU "do it right." I'm firmly in the camp of "show the origin, but get it done in the first act."

And as bad a decision it was to go back to the origin in ASM, Marvel Showed how well it worked when they didn't go that route.

I think one of the dullest cliche's of superhero films has become the spectacle of watching the character come to terms with their powers. And that's why it was such a terrible idea for Fox to make Fant4stic primarily about that.

I imagine when Stan and Jack were coming up with these characters, the origins were after-thoughts. They probably started with the kind of powers, physical characteristics, costumes etc. they wanted for the characters and then went back and said: "So how can they get these powers?"

And often they went back to to old standby - "Radiation changes DNA, so let's have them exposed to radiation in some unique way."

The original Hulk origin is one I actually kind of like because his actions were heroic in sacrificing himself, and it also made an interesting commentary with the Military creating their own worst enemy.

... but even with that origin being shifted and changed, the character hasn't suffered dramatically.

 

[Dark Raven]

And as bad a decision it was to go back to the origin in ASM, Marvel Showed how well it worked when they didn't go that route.

I think one of the dullest cliche's of superhero films has become the spectacle of watching the character come to terms with their powers. And that's why it was such a terrible idea for Fox to make Fant4stic primarily about that.

I imagine when Stan and Jack were coming up with these characters, the origins were after-thoughts. They probably started with the kind of powers, physical characteristics, costumes etc. they wanted for the characters and then went back and said: "So how can they get these powers?"

And often they went back to to old standby - "Radiation changes DNA, so let's have them exposed to radiation in some unique way."

The original Hulk origin is one I actually kind of like because his actions were heroic in sacrificing himself, and it also made an interesting commentary with the Military creating their own worst enemy.

... but even with that origin being shifted and changed, the character hasn't suffered dramatically.

I wanted to see the gamma bomb origin for Hulk. That's something we've never seen on film, and it looks so dramatic and literally explosive.

Now people might think a gamma bomb wouldn't work, but Carol Danvers got hit by a blast in Captain Marvel and gained powers that way. If Banner absorbed a blast from a gamma explosion in a similar way, that could've made him the Hulk. It also could've given us Rick Jones, whom Banner saved. He is sorely missing from the MCU and probably can never be part of it now.

It's also a crime that William Hurt's Thunderbolt Ross has never interacted with Ruffalo either as Banner or the Hulk. It's like they don't even know each other.

They probably shouldn't have shown the origin for Hulk even in the credits. If they left it more open like they've done with Spider-Man, they could've gone back to it later on. Now he's stuck with the dentist's chair origin from the TV series which doesn't have the same impact as the gamma bomb. Although it is better than the way Eric Bana got zapped in Ang Lee's Hulk which was the most undramatic version.

 

[InCali]

The really tricky part if how you place the FF (or X-Men for that matter) in the MCU. They did it for Captain Marvel, but when you've got a fairly fleshed out Universe, it can make things a little bit difficult. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will take some creativity unless you just want to have a current day origin.

 

[Crimz]

The really tricky part if how you place the FF (or X-Men for that matter) in the MCU. They did it for Captain Marvel, but when you've got a fairly fleshed out Universe, it can make things a little bit difficult. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it will take some creativity unless you just want to have a current day origin.

It's easy to bring in the FF if they are set in the present. Setting them in the past is where the complications arise.
Plus it would make the first have to be an origin story, which is something I don't want at all.

 

[Detective Conan]

Off-topic: Pretty worked up that Marvel announced a team book called Doc Justice and the J-team(yeah, that’s actually what they’re calling it) and in the promotion they showcased Marvel's history with teams with the titles of Marvel’s previous super teams but for some bizzare reason they omitted any mention of the First Family, and even pretended that the Avengers were Marvel’s first superhero team —ignoring the First Family.

Now I would understand this if Fox still had the rights but now that they don’t this is just inexcusable. It’s not a big deal since Marvel is doing plenty enough to promote the FF but I just found it odd.