First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[roach]

I know something of the government as I was in the Navy for 11 years. Yes people were taken from the front lines to do USO shows and raise money but it wasnt everyone. Audie Murphy became the most decorated soldier of WW2 and he didnt get yanked to trade jokes with Bob Hope.
Yes we dont know the full extent of the USO plot point. My distain for it comes from there needing to be an excuse for the costume. Whats going to be the excuse for the Red Skull mask???? Or whatever role Bucky may serve????
Everyone seems to think we are getting the Winter Soldier but the only way they can do the winter soldier is if Bucky is Cap's sidekick and not just a regular soldier.
I dunno I prefer the Cap creation to be the Government making lemons into lemonaide instead of them not knowing what they have.

 

[Dragon]

To address this point of the USO angle rallying the troops and inspiring the American public-

How exactly would this work? The troops will see some muscle freak on stage performing feats of strength and acrobatics that they couldn't possibly do. So if anything, they'd be discouraged by seeing Cap up there. They'd be thinking, "Why are they sending me into combat and not this super human clown?" However Cap on the battlefield would be inspiring for the troops.

As for the public- they'd look at Cap and think "this is where my tax dollars are going? why isn't this clearly able specimen out defending his country?"

Not to mention that Cap is supposed to be a secret weapon. This s why he's in a MASK, using the codename Captain America. Putting him on display shows that the army could only produce one super soldier and also puts him in danger of assasination. If the Nazis could kill the scientist who developed the formula in a top secret locale, then they could get to Cap in public.

Finally, again- we know from Johnston's own lips that the only reason for the USO thing is to explain why Cap has a costume, something which doesn't require an explanation. Costues on a superhero is so widely accepted that you have films like Kick-Ass where people in pursuit of being a superhero wear costumes for no reason at all. It's just par for the course. However in Cap's case, it's actually a necessity for his style of combat and his role as propaganda for the American cause. That Johnston feels the need to do this reflects a lack of faith in the subject matter as well as a lack of skill in pacing and story structure.

 

[Webhead2006]

It could be that the us government is both training him and studying him while he is part of the USO tour. Or he could already have been trained and studied to death and the US decided that he was best used for PR because of Steve's natural ability to lead and give patriotic speeches... OR MAYBE he goes AWOL from the USO before he is completely trained to save Bucky. We really don't know.

I always thought that they would put him in the costume of the character "Captain America" a pre-existing comic book and stage personality (much like Uncle Sam) His job would be to give the rah-rah speeches to the troops at the USO shows and possibly kick a little fake Nazi @ss... think Tom Cuise at the beginning of the Last Samurai... but less drunk.

This would explain how the costume would already have a look that they wanted to emulate. This would explain why people (in modern Marvel movies) don't really know about or mention Cap by name, because most would think of him as a character and not a "Super Hero" Those in the "know" like General Ross and Blonsky would know because they have a high enough clearance to read the files. Cap would appear on news reel footage and such, but most would assume it is a PR stunt... except for those few who actually saw him in action. His legend would be a modern urban war legend where people would say... "Captain America is an actor" and another guy would say..." I once saw him take down an entire unit of the SS while they had us pinned down in France... that was NO actor! That guy is super human!!"

So the general public forgets about him... much like they forgot about Howdy Doody and Roy Rogers etc... just another out dated character that time forgot... except he wasn't a character, but an actual living breathing person.

That is my take on it.

totally there is so many different directions this uso thing could be. I do hope what ever the have planed works out for the best and fits the character good.

 

[Agent 194]

I've thought for some time the superhero movie makers are over rationalizing, and almost apologizing, for what the character is supposed to be. Don't make up unnecessary excuses. Put him in the suit (and I say the traditional one) - make him a sickly product of the super soldier formula not something else, - give him a shield and let's go!

 

[TikkiEXX]

maybe because its a movie and there are a ton of people who dont know jack about Cap and wouldnt buy it?

 

[TikkiEXX]

Those who really think the government would NOT send him in to the USO clearly know nothing of the government.
You know the saying the shortest distance between two points is a straight line?
Well governments are the exact opposite. If there is a wasteful way to do something, they will do it.

thats not a very good explanation of why theyre doing it, hate to say it. youre basically saying they did it just because when im sure there will be a beter reason in the movie. even if its just to raise morale thats pretty justifiable. maybe they want to study him? maybe they dont want him to get killed? maybe they think he can motivate the troops? maybe they think one man no matter how powerful wont make much of a difference? until we know more about the story we dont really know.

 

[Dragon]

maybe because its a movie and there are a ton of people who dont know jack about Cap and wouldnt buy it?

Well, let's see..

Back in 1978 Superman The Movie didn't explain why he was in costume. Big Hit.

In 1989 Batman- didn't explain why he was in costume or for that matter his choice in a Bat motif. Big hit.

2002, Spider-Man didn't explain why he was in costume, also a big hit.

Hell, even Ironman didn't explain why he built a suit of armor rather than some type of armored vehicle or whatever.

Again. No need to explain why a superhero in a superhero film uses one of the mainstays of the genre. You might as well explain why they kick in a kung-fu flick.

 

[roach]

maybe because its a movie and there are a ton of people who dont know jack about Cap and wouldnt buy it?

what would this have to do with explaining the costume????
the USO explanantion makes the US Government seem foolish. "What are we gonna do with this super soldier we created." "I know..join the USO circuit."


Here's an explanation that is better:
The Red Skull is terrifying Europe. To the point that armies flee from the sight of him. (much like samurai in demon masks or the Red Baron in WW1). The US wants their own persona. Steve Rogers is chosen.

 

[Dragon]

what would this have to do with explaining the costume????
the USO explanantion makes the US Government seem foolish. "What are we gonna do with this super soldier we created." "I know..join the USO circuit."


Here's an explanation that is better:
The Red Skull is terrifying Europe. To the point that armies flee from the sight of him. (much like samurai in demon masks or the Red Baron in WW1). The US wants their own persona. Steve Rogers is chosen.

Exactly. In fact, the Red Skull's reign of terror reflects why the US would make haste in getting Cap on the battlefield, rather than letting him wallow on a USO stage.

As has been said, they'd have tested Cap as much as possible. And, not to sound cold-blooded, but if he died, they could test his body even more thoroughly than when he was alive. But there's no getting around that he's more important to the government in combat than as an ornament.

 

[kendo]

Maybe the government wants to mass produce super soldiers and doesn't want to risk the only successful specimen they have until the are sure it can be replicated?

Having him in the USO serves a propaganda purpose (also raising more volunteers for future tests) until they can.

I dunno. I don't really like it but am willing to give the idea a chance.

 

[roach]

Maybe the government wants to mass produce super soldiers and doesn't want to risk the only successful specimen they have until the are sure it can be replicated?

Having him in the USO serves a propaganda purpose (also raising more volunteers for future tests) until they can.

I dunno. I don't really like it but am willing to give the idea a chance.

but we are told that they cant make anymore

 

[Dragon]

In fact, they could simply explain that they do manage to synthesize the formula from Steve's blood, but that it's lethal to all other test subjects. That it turns out that Steve Rogers is a one in a million case of the super soldier formula actually working without adverse effects.

 

[roach]

i think that may be the case since in TIH right after they shoot Blonksy with the SSS the mention side effects

 

[TikkiEXX]

sounds like you guys should write your own Cap movie. im just saying these guys are professionals and we have no idea how theyre going to handle the USO thing. whats wrong with trying to ground it in reality a bit? if you were a supersoldier would you want to run around in that outfit in the battlefield? active word is SOLDIER. i see nothing wrong with what theyre trying to do, especially since all we have is one comment about it. seems entirely to early to judge one aspect of the story that we dont know much at all about like we know the whole plot. im just trying to see the positives.

 

[roach]

sounds like you guys should write your own Cap movie. im just saying these guys are professionals and we have no idea how theyre going to handle the USO thing. whats wrong with trying to ground it in reality a bit? if you were a supersoldier would you want to run around in that outfit in the battlefield? active word is SOLDIER. i see nothing wrong with what theyre trying to do, especially since all we have is one comment about it. seems entirely to early to judge one aspect of the story that we dont know much at all about like we know the whole plot. im just trying to see the positives.

I dont understand this comment. I can only be a professional to not like a direction they are going with this film. Being a professional doesnt keep them from making mistakes. Bryan Singer was a professional when he directed Superman Returns. Joel Shumacher was a professional when he directed Batman and Robin. Godzilla, Terminator Salvation,Jaws the Revenge, Catwoman...all disappointing films all done by professionals.
Actually as someone who was in the military if I was given a suit that was better protection than the average soldier with a bullet proof shield to go with it I wouldnt care how its colored.
There is nothing wrong with being positive about this movie...just as there is nothing wrong with people who feel that what they have heard so far is not anything to be happy about.

 

[Webhead2006]

well the thing is we still dont know what cap will be doing in the uso, and then also will regular soliders and folks at the uso even know he is a super solider. the govt will probably keep that aspect of steve's identity secret and the uso thing could be what they are doing well testing is on going with steve, and the thought it could be a way to test him while also doing the propgrada stuff and all.

 

[roach]

I dont think they have mobile labs on the 40's

 

[Doctor Jones]

I say, if it tells a compelling story and goes deeper into things, why not? I wouldn't expect Steve to just take the formula, slap on the suit and shield and go "Okay, let's kill nazis!"

 

[That person]

Cap punched Hitler before Inglorious Basterds was eve a thought

I'm aware of that, but a scene like that would inevitably create some comparisons.

 

[roach]

why who punched Hitler in IB???

 

[Dragon]

I say, if it tells a compelling story and goes deeper into things, why not? I wouldn't expect Steve to just take the formula, slap on the suit and shield and go "Okay, let's kill nazis!"

Why not? Especialy since the Nazis are illing everyone in their path.

And his being on a USO stage merely to explain why he's in costume isn't very compelling.

Steve might have questions about his place in th world before and after the experiment. But a USO stage isn't the place for him to work them out.

 

[Dragon]

sounds like you guys should write your own Cap movie. im just saying these guys are professionals and we have no idea how theyre going to handle the USO thing. whats wrong with trying to ground it in reality a bit? if you were a supersoldier would you want to run around in that outfit in the battlefield? active word is SOLDIER. i see nothing wrong with what theyre trying to do, especially since all we have is one comment about it. seems entirely to early to judge one aspect of the story that we dont know much at all about like we know the whole plot. im just trying to see the positives.

So then your problem is with Cap's costume itself?

Well, I guess there isn't much that can be said. I personally think it looks pretty cool and understand the practicality and purpose behind it.

 

[TikkiEXX]

why dont we wait a bit and see? thats all im saying. why make your mind up about something so nebulous? and i hate to say it but i used to find Caps outfit a little silly when i didnt know about the character. probably like a bunch of people in the audience. and i can understand where youre coming from Roach but this isnt Fox people, Bryan Singer and Joel Shumacher are nowhere to be found. its ok to have doubts but im gonna trust Marvel until they screw up. and i havent seen anything to lead me to beleive theyre about to as far as Cap goes. matter of fact theres not exactly a whole lot to go on.

 

[roach]

Its the point of a message board to discuss things. If we if we all like everything whats the point of coming here.
I find Cap's costume to be more more silly than Spidey's of Superman's.
Yes you can trust Marvel but I think the big hit they had was Iron Man and may have been because Favreau is a big Iron Man fan. He had to fight to keep stuff in his movie....like the Mach 1 armor.

 

[TikkiEXX]

my fingers are crossed basically. lol. im just hoping if things go down the wrong track Marvel will intervene.