First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[Turtles]

To address this point of the USO angle rallying the troops and inspiring the American public-

How exactly would this work? The troops will see some muscle freak on stage performing feats of strength and acrobatics that they couldn't possibly do. So if anything, they'd be discouraged by seeing Cap up there. They'd be thinking, "Why are they sending me into combat and not this super human clown?" However Cap on the battlefield would be inspiring for the troops.

As for the public- they'd look at Cap and think "this is where my tax dollars are going? why isn't this clearly able specimen out defending his country?" .

You're assuming that he'll be presented to the public as a real super soldier. What if he's not? A while ago in another thread I brought up the idea that, maybe, the government will be hiding him in the USO. Plain sight, so to speak. As far as anyone in the USO is concerned, he's just the guy that fit the costume. It's a long shot, sure, and probably wishful thinking on my part, but it's better than assuming the worst about a movie before we actually know anything about it.

As for the whole "the USO show isn't plain sight" arguement that was brought up last time, well, I think a person in the USO show can be hiding in plain sight. Plain sight does not equal discreet, as evidenced by comic book Tony Stark. Tony Stark built the Iron Man armor, and he was eyeball deep in the superhero and military worlds, and yet no one thought he could possibly be Iron Man. No one said "yeah, that guy's rich and famous, and he made the armor, he must be Iron Man!"

Not to mention that Cap is supposed to be a secret weapon. This s why he's in a MASK, using the codename Captain America. Putting him on display shows that the army could only produce one super soldier and also puts him in danger of assasination. If the Nazis could kill the scientist who developed the formula in a top secret locale, then they could get to Cap in public. .

Dressing him up in a costume, essentially painting a target on him, and putting him smack dab in the middle of a war zone won't increase his chances of being assassinated at all, right? If the Nazis could kill a scientist in a top secret locale, then they could pinpoint the guy in the red, white, and blue pajamas on the battlefield. And dressing him up in a costume wouldn't give the Nazis the impression that he's one of kind, would it? It's not like the government is giving everyone costumes just to boost troop morale.

The costume protects Steve Rogers, it doesn't protect Captain America. In fact, I would say it has as big or bigger a hand in creating the problems you pointed out above as the USO. And that's only if, in the USO, he's presented as a real super soldier, and one of a kind. If he's not presented as either, then what reason do the Nazis have to kill him?

The only way to ensure the above situations (assassination, the nazi's realizing he's one of a kind, etc.) never happen, or limit the chances that they would happen, would be to keep Steve locked up inside a secure facility and never let him out until you had a whole platoon of super soldiers. Even if you did let him fight, and didn't put him into a costume so he wouldn't garner extra attention, it would eventually become obvious to the Nazi's that there was this one guy that was extra special. Because no costume or secret identity or whatnot could ever hope to hide the fact that he's stronger and faster than an average human.

And his being on a USO stage merely to explain why he's in costume isn't very compelling.

And Captain America wearing a costume "just because" wouldn't be very compelling, either.

Why the hell do fanboys have such a problem with directors trying to make comic book movies something more than fun popcorn flicks? It's annyoing, moreso because most of the fanboys here probably spend half of their time complaining about plot holes, bad writing, and "Scooby-Doo villains" in other movies. Yet when directors try to avoid these things in superhero movies by adding details here and there, they complain about it. And why? Because it wasn't in the comics. Are people seriously telling me that they would rather have something NOT explained in a movie just because it wasn't fully/ever explained in the comics? And they would rather a dumb ass reason be used to explain something rather than a good one because the dumb ass reason was in the comics?

Please, if someone wants filmmakers to regurgitate the comics panel for panel onto the big screen, then I suggest they just keep on reading the comics and forget the movies. The movies will never be the same. And even the ones hailed as good adaptions of the comics aren't the same, it just that people learn to ignore/accept the changes because they enjoy the final product.

So, basically, I think people have to put their bias (it's got to be exactly like the comics or it will suck.....blah, blah, blah) aside for five minutes, and see how the USO idea plays out before they say it's going to doom the movie. We don't even know how far it's deviating from the comics yet. Yes, I know the USO idea wasn't in the comics and it's an obvious change, but you can change certain things in a story, and still preserve enough of the main elements to please the fans. I mean, Tony Stark didn't originally get injured in Afghanistan, and he didn't build an arc reactor, yet because he still got shrapnel near his heart and built a suit of armor to escape, and a man named Yinsen was there, people thought his movie origins were accurate enough, didn't they?

 

[afan]

Care to explain? I would like hear an alternative to the USO idea.

Steve Rogers, who has been judged due to his physical stature unsuitable for military duty, is selected because of his other unique qualities, to be a participant in the Super-Soldier Program, a top secret, high level project. After exhaustive testing for suitability he is injected with the serum. The scientist who created the formula is murdered by a Nazi agent who has infiltrated the program. Steve in his first act as a super soldier kills the agent. The formula for the serum is lost as the dead scientist had a mistrust for notes, and had comitted the formula to memory only. Steve is now one of a kind. It is decided that his supreme talents can best serve the war effort as a super agent for the Allies, carrying out select missions against Nazi Germany. A uniform is designed and created for him that will protect him while also making it quite clear to the enemies of freedom exactly what their foe represents. He is given an amazing indestructable shield for both defense and offense, fabricated from an alloy that contains metal from a meteorite, a metal with fantastic properties unknown to planet Earth. Private Rogers is assigned to non-cambat duties in England, but when the need arises he is dispatched to enemy territory as his alter ego.......code name.........Captain America.

Sound familiar.....if it ain't broke.....why fix it?

 

[Dragon]

You're assuming that he'll be presented to the public as a real super soldier. What if he's not? A while ago in another thread I brought up the idea that, maybe, the government will be hiding him in the USO. Plain sight, so to speak. As far as anyone in the USO is concerned, he's just the guy that fit the costume. It's a long shot, sure, and probably wishful thinking on my part, but it's better than assuming the worst about a movie before we actually know anything about it.

Why would they hide him in plain sight? If the objective is to create an army of super soldiers what does having him on a USO stage accomplish?

If they want an army of super soldiers he should be in a training/testing facility.


The only reason for the stage thing- according to Johnston is to explain why he's in a costume.

Dressing him up in a costume, essentially painting a target on him, and putting him smack dab in the middle of a war zone won't increase his chances of being assassinated at all, right? If the Nazis could kill a scientist in a top secret locale, then they could pinpoint the guy in the red, white, and blue pajamas on the battlefield.

Well, they aren't pajamas. They're protective gear. Even the craptastic '91 Cap movie explained that the suit was fireproof. As for a target on his chest? That's what THE INDESTRUCTIBLE SHIELD AND COMBAT TRAINING ARE FOR. On a stage, singing and dancing, he's a sitting duck. On a battlefield, where's he's FIGHTING, and a moving target. He's obviously harder to kill than standing on a stage.

And dressing him up in a costume wouldn't give the Nazis the impression that he's one of kind, would it? It's not like the government is giving everyone costumes just to boost troop morale.

But the Nazis won't know where he's going to strike or when. In the USO show, he'd be on a schedule, thus easier to track. And for all the Nazis know, there could indeed be several Captain Americas, just as there were beliefs of there being Hitler doubles.

The costume protects Steve Rogers, it doesn't protect Captain America.

Actually it does. The upper body area is chainmail. Again, the rest is supposed to be fireproof. It isn't armor, but because of Cap's fighting style he needs something light that he can move freely in.

In fact, I would say it has as big or bigger a hand in creating the problems you pointed out above as the USO. And that's only if, in the USO, he's presented as a real super soldier, and one of a kind. If he's not presented as either, then what reason do the Nazis have to kill him?

So- you're suggesting that instead of taking time to train him for combat and test him to see if the formula can be replicated, they give him singing and dancing lessons and put him on stage- to do what exactly?

The only way to ensure the above situations (assassination, the nazi's realizing he's one of a kind, etc.) never happen, or limit the chances that they would happen, would be to keep Steve locked up inside a secure facility and never let him out until you had a whole platoon of super soldiers. Even if you did let him fight, and didn't put him into a costume so he wouldn't garner extra attention, it would eventually become obvious to the Nazi's that there was this one guy that was extra special. Because no costume or secret identity or whatnot could ever hope to hide the fact that he's stronger and faster than an average human.

Which is pretty much the story of Captain America. Glad you got that. And as I've suggested, they could come to the realization that they can't create an army of super soldiers via the testing. That they DO succeed in replicating the formula from Steve's blood, but find that the results are lethal That Steve is the one in a million subject who can ingest the serum with no adverse effects. So they have no choice but to send him into battle alone.

And Captain America wearing a costume "just because" wouldn't be very compelling, either.

It ISN'T "just because". The suit- (Not a costume-) is a protective uniform. It's no more a costume than are the space suits worn by astronauts. And it's propaganda for the American cause, just as the Red Skull is propaganda for the Nazis. It isn't just a man that's giving the Nazis a beat down, it's America. The ideals of America that are defeating them.

Secondly it doesn't have to be compelling in and of itself. There is alot more to Cap's story than his putting on a suit. He gets the power, the training, the shield, a sidekick, a love interest, allies, a war to win and I'm sure opposition at home as well as abroad. That's plenty of compelling story.

Why the hell do fanboys have such a problem with directors trying to make comic book movies something more than fun popcorn flicks?

I dream of that. But that's not what Johnston is doing.

It's annyoing, moreso because most of the fanboys here probably spend half of their time complaining about plot holes, bad writing, and "Scooby-Doo villains" in other movies. Yet when directors try to avoid these things in superhero movies by adding details here and there, they complain about it. And why? Because it wasn't in the comics.

You mean detainls like making the Redskull an Italian child with a skin condition? Like making Dr. Doom a cheeseball businessman that turns into a metal man with electrical powers? And now Cap dancing onstage because its the only way Johnston can think of to put him in red, white and blue?

I have no problem with deviation from the comics when it actually improves the story. The USO thing DOES NOT.

Are people seriously telling me that they would rather have something NOT explained in a movie just because it wasn't fully/ever explained in the comics? And they would rather a dumb ass reason be used to explain something rather than a good one because the dumb ass reason was in the comics?

Well the USO thing is pretty dumb-assed. And the real thing is, that a colorful uniform on a superhero in a superhero film simply doesn't need in-depth explanation. It's like explaining a space ship in Star Wars. Star Wars opened with ships travelling in space. So we know that in this reality such things exist. Cap opens with showing the likes of the Redskull and Baron Zemo. It's established that guys like Namor and the Human Torch exist We know we're in a realm where people wear uniforms for either protectve or symbolic purposes. Not hard to get. Hell, a film like Watchmen showed people in costume for absolutely NO REASON AT ALL. The Silk Spectre and Comedian's suits sure as hell offered no protection and didn't look very intimidating, Yet no one cared.

 

[roach]

Dressing him up in a costume, essentially painting a target on him, and putting him smack dab in the middle of a war zone won't increase his chances of being assassinated at all, right? If the Nazis could kill a scientist in a top secret locale, then they could pinpoint the guy in the red, white, and blue pajamas on the battlefield. And dressing him up in a costume wouldn't give the Nazis the impression that he's one of kind, would it? It's not like the government is giving everyone costumes just to boost troop morale.

Using your logic if they could infiltrate a top secret project why couldnt the infiltrate the USO???


And Captain America wearing a costume "just because" wouldn't be very compelling, either.

Why the hell do fanboys have such a problem with directors trying to make comic book movies something more than fun popcorn flicks? It's annyoing, moreso because most of the fanboys here probably spend half of their time complaining about plot holes, bad writing, and "Scooby-Doo villains" in other movies. Yet when directors try to avoid these things in superhero movies by adding details here and there, they complain about it. And why? Because it wasn't in the comics. Are people seriously telling me that they would rather have something NOT explained in a movie just because it wasn't fully/ever explained in the comics? And they would rather a dumb ass reason be used to explain something rather than a good one because the dumb ass reason was in the comics?

Please, if someone wants filmmakers to regurgitate the comics panel for panel onto the big screen, then I suggest they just keep on reading the comics and forget the movies. The movies will never be the same. And even the ones hailed as good adaptions of the comics aren't the same, it just that people learn to ignore/accept the changes because they enjoy the final product.

So, basically, I think people have to put their bias (it's got to be exactly like the comics or it will suck.....blah, blah, blah) aside for five minutes, and see how the USO idea plays out before they say it's going to doom the movie. We don't even know how far it's deviating from the comics yet. Yes, I know the USO idea wasn't in the comics and it's an obvious change, but you can change certain things in a story, and still preserve enough of the main elements to please the fans. I mean, Tony Stark didn't originally get injured in Afghanistan, and he didn't build an arc reactor, yet because he still got shrapnel near his heart and built a suit of armor to escape, and a man named Yinsen was there, people thought his movie origins were accurate enough, didn't they?

the reason from the comics is perfect, The Red Skull is scaring all armies before him and the US wants an agent like that....psychological warfare...just like the Samurai in feudal Japan wearing demon masks or the Red Baron from WW1.
I just dont understand how it if people pay 12$ to see a superhero flick that its some sort of betrayal that a superhero actually appear in costume...not every movie can be TDK-ized

 

[afan]

And Captain America wearing a costume "just because" wouldn't be very compelling, either.

Why the hell do fanboys have such a problem with directors trying to make comic book movies something more than fun popcorn flicks? It's annyoing, moreso because most of the fanboys here probably spend half of their time complaining about plot holes, bad writing, and "Scooby-Doo villains" in other movies. Yet when directors try to avoid these things in superhero movies by adding details here and there, they complain about it. And why? Because it wasn't in the comics. Are people seriously telling me that they would rather have something NOT explained in a movie just because it wasn't fully/ever explained in the comics? And they would rather a dumb ass reason be used to explain something rather than a good one because the dumb ass reason was in the comics?

Turtles, I feel sorry for you. That you deny yourself the joyful license to accept that super heroes wear costumes. Once you accept that premise there are no dumbass reasons, and eating up screen time to tediously explain them becomes obviously wasteful.

In brevity there is logic, Captain America's costume screams the good ole USA, Batman's costume associates him with bat's, Flash's costume with speed, Green Arrow's costume with famous archers of the past, explanations done.

Aesthetically the designs have passed the test of time and that's the only justification that is needed to use them on screen also.

 

[TikkiEXX]

this thread is getting a bit touchy. figured things wouldve cooled off a bit, but apparantly people feel very strongly about this.

 

[roach]

I do not understand it. The biggest movie of all time was about a man going to another planet putting his mind into a genetically created clone that is blue and ten feet tall and no one bats an eye....Perseus can be a demi god, fight giant scorpions and Medusa ride a winged horse and kill a giant sea monster and we only complain about the plot holes...but the moment someone says they want to make a superhero movie then imagination and belief in the fantastic go out the window. Do we take away Superman's costume because its not believeable???? We dont have countless threads on Perseus garb or the Na'vi clothing???? Are we going to do away with spinach making Popeye strong in the Popeye movie????

 

[Turtles]

Why would they hide him in plain sight? If the objective is to create an army of super soldiers what does having him on a USO stage accomplish?

If they want an army of super soldiers he should be in a training/testing facility.

Who says he wasn't/isn't? You're probably automatically assuming they throw him in the USO without testing/training him because you've already decided the USO idea will suck, and constantly making negative assumptions about it is the only way you can keep convincing yourself that it will suck.

The only reason for the stage thing- according to Johnston is to explain why he's in a costume.

So far. Again, I encourage you to stop acting as if a one paragraph summary of the movie from the director tells you everything there is to know about that movie.

Well, they aren't pajamas. They're protective gear. Even the craptastic '91 Cap movie explained that the suit was fireproof. As for a target on his chest? That's what THE INDESTRUCTIBLE SHIELD AND COMBAT TRAINING ARE FOR. On a stage, singing and dancing, he's a sitting duck. On a battlefield, where's he's FIGHTING, and a moving target. He's obviously harder to kill than standing on a stage.

What, does the indestructible shield, and combat training, and protective gear, suddenly stop working when he's on stage? Is a stage Captain America's Kryptonite?

He would probably be safer on the stage because, while he is a sitting target, if he is attacked it would probably be by one guy; a single assassin there specifically to kill him. But if he's on a battlefield, he could have a whole troop of Nazis on his tail. It would be hard to get a troop of Nazis into a USO show without them being noticed.

So, what's really safer? Putting him on a stage with the prospect of facing a single lone assassin, or putting him on the battlefield with a guarantee he'll come face to face with the entire German army?

But the Nazis won't know where he's going to strike or when. In the USO show, he'd be on a schedule, thus easier to track. And for all the Nazis know, there could indeed be several Captain Americas, just as there were beliefs of there being Hitler doubles.

Yeah, glad you pointed out that there could be Captain America doubles, because it goes hand and hand with my plain sight theory.

If they thought the Cap on the USO stage was a double, or just an actor in a costume, what reason would they have to kill him? Will the Nazis just go around killing every guy in a Captain America costume they find?


Actually it does. The upper body area is chainmail. Again, the rest is supposed to be fireproof. It isn't armor, but because of Cap's fighting style he needs something light that he can move freely in.

You weren't supposed to take that literally. And even if you do, a red white and blue costume does make him a walking target, and that almost negates it's protective qualities.

More people noticing Cap=more people shooting at Cap=more people hitting Cap in an area he's not protected (that shield and chain mail can't cover 100% of his body 100% of the time).

So- you're suggesting that instead of taking time to train him for combat and test him to see if the formula can be replicated, they give him singing and dancing lessons and put him on stage- to do what exactly?

Again, there is no proof he wasn't trained or studied, and we're yet to get the full details on why he's put into the USO. And no, I don't buy the whole "it's just to explain the costume nothing more arguement" that you guys keep bringing out.

I don't care what Johnston quotes you guys produce at this time, unless you've got a half dozen more or a movie trailer to back it up, or the full script in your hands, you can't even begin to pretend you know how certain elements of the movie will play out, or the exact reasoning behind them. It's way to early in the game to be "knowing" anything.

It ISN'T "just because". The suit- (Not a costume-) is a protective uniform. It's no more a costume than are the space suits worn by astronauts. And it's propaganda for the American cause, just as the Red Skull is propaganda for the Nazis. It isn't just a man that's giving the Nazis a beat down, it's America. The ideals of America that are defeating them.

A regular uniform with a bullet proof vest and a helmet would be for protection. The moment you starting changing colors and adding silly headwings for propaganda reasons, you start turning the suit into a costume.

Secondly it doesn't have to be compelling in and of itself. There is alot more to Cap's story than his putting on a suit. He gets the power, the training, the shield, a sidekick, a love interest, allies, a war to win and I'm sure opposition at home as well as abroad. That's plenty of compelling story.

So, then maybe the USO thing doesn't have to be compelling in and of itself either then? Or does "the rest of the story will make up for it" arguement only apply to the things you like?

I have no problem with deviation from the comics when it actually improves the story. The USO thing DOES NOT.

How can you tell the USO angle doesn't add anything to the story? Short answer: you can't, not at this point.

To tell you the truth, I think you don't want the USO idea to add anything to the story. You want it to fail for no reason other than the fact you don't like it. You're like the people in the U.S. who are secretly hoping something bad will happen to the country just because they hate Obama, and if something bad happens on Obama's watch it will prove that he sucks as president and their hate was justified.

Well the USO thing is pretty dumb-assed.

To you, not to everyone.

Turtles, I feel sorry for you. That you deny yourself the joyful license to accept that super heroes wear costumes. Once you accept that premise there are no dumbass reasons, and eating up screen time to tediously explain them becomes obviously wasteful.


In brevity there is logic, Captain America's costume screams the good ole USA, Batman's costume associates him with bat's, Flash's costume with speed, Green Arrow's costume with famous archers of the past, explanations done.

Aesthetically the designs have passed the test of time and that's the only justification that is needed to use them on screen also.

Actually, I feel sorry for you, because you've deluded yourself into believing that every attempt to add some logic to a super hero story, to make the story the tiniest bit realistic, is a secret attempt to destroy it. You think everyone is secretly ashamed of what's in the comics, and they're just trying to apologize for how crappy they are by making the movies more realistic. That's one hell of a conspiracy theory you've got yourself believing.

As for costumes carrying their own explainations, I'd have to agree. But, what's wrong with adding something to that? Saying you can have costumes in a superhero movie because they're expected, but adding a "why" in there it will ruin everything, is like saying adding cheese to a hamburger is okay because cheeseburgers are expected, but adding ketchup to the mix will ruin everything.

And I bet you can't name a single movie in which a great deal of time or effort was taken to explain the costume, and the explanation in the end proved wasteful. Oh, and you can't say the Captain America movie, because, for the 1 millionth time, you can't yet prove that the USO idea will take up a lot of screen time, or that it will be used solely to explain the costume.

And Roach, I ask you again (because I think you said the exact same thing the last time I brought this idea up), why would the Nazis infiltrate the USO if they thought the Captain America in the USO was a fake? Still think people should go after Tina Fey if they want to get at Sarah Palin?

And if the Nazis can inflitrate the secret facility like you said, who says they can't inflitrate the secret facility that the military is studying Cap in, or the regular military one they put him in the field? Maybe one of the Invaders could be a traitor? Who knows? He's not safe anywhere, is he?

The USO isn't the only place the Nazis can get at him, so I don't see why you people continue to single it out as if it is.

 

[Son of Coul]

I still have to hold my stance that "SUPERHEROS DON'T NEED COSTUME EXPLANATIONS BECAUSE THEY'RE SUPERHEROS!!!" is the worst excuse for anything in a movie ever.

 

[roach]

And I bet you can't name a single movie in which a great deal of time or effort was taken to explain the costume, and the explanation in the end proved wasteful. Oh, and you can't say the Captain America movie, because, for the 1 millionth time, you can't yet prove that the USO idea will take up a lot of screen time, or that it will be used solely to explain the costume.

Can you name a single movie where the costume was the reason the movie failed?

And Roach, I ask you again (because I think you said the exact same thing the last time I brought this idea up), why would the Nazis infiltrate the USO if they thought the Captain America in the USO was a fake? Still think people should go after Tina Fey if they want to get at Sarah Palin?

If the nazis were knowledgeable enough to get into a top secret military project you dont think they would investigate and find out where the real Cap is???

And if the Nazis can inflitrate the secret facility like you said, who says they can't inflitrate the secret facility that the military is studying Cap in, or the regular military one they put him in the field? Maybe one of the Invaders could be a traitor? Who knows? He's not safe anywhere, is he?

The USO isn't the only place the Nazis can get at him, so I don't see why you people continue to single it out as if it is.

If they can get to him where ever then why try to hide him. At least put him out there where he has a fighting chance or maybe take a few with him instead of making him a target by singing and dancing on stage.

 

[roach]

I still have to hold my stance that "SUPERHEROS DON'T NEED COSTUME EXPLANATIONS BECAUSE THEY'RE SUPERHEROS!!!" is the worst excuse for anything in a movie ever.

But they dont need an elaborate explanation or we have to create one because the GA wont believe a guy runs around in a costume...in a superhero movie.....does anyone question the Super suit in the Superman movies did anyone but the fanboys question the Spider suit???

 

[Son of Coul]

The Spider-Man suit DID make sense, as he had spider-like powers and wanted to protect his identity. Small stuff, but it's fine. I never saw the original Superman movies but to be honest almost everyone I've ever had the brief discussion on Superman with have questioned the point of his ridiculous costume, and not just in the movie's context, but in general.

With Captain America it seems silly and overly patriotic to brightly color his costume like a flag while running into a warzone while he's their crown jewel. Which is why the USO show works, it almost mocks the idea of such an absurd design -and while it may not seem that way to long time comic fans, it is rather silly upon first glance- but it turns out to be a great leadership tool as it ultimately allows him to lead and ironically get respect as an American leader. But to dress him that way in the middle of a war is unpractical.

And it's not just about the GA, but the reality of the movie itself. I don't like how people say stuff like "If a God can exist, why can't a guy wear a bright outfit to battle without explanation?" because you they're two different fields of reality. One concerns science and laws of the universe, the other has to do with characterization and the real way people behave.

 

[roach]

The Spider-Man suit DID make sense, as he had spider-like powers and wanted to protect his identity. Small stuff, but it's fine. I never saw the original Superman movies but to be honest almost everyone I've ever had the brief discussion on Superman with have questioned the point of his ridiculous costume, and not just in the movie's context, but in general.
Yes the Spider-suit makes sense but there isnt an elaborate excuse to why its there...and I have watched every Superman movie and not one explained the suit...look at how people flipped out when the Superman suit was changed in SR

With Captain America it seems silly and overly patriotic to brightly color his costume like a flag while running into a warzone while he's their crown jewel. Which is why the USO show works, it almost mocks the idea of such an absurd design -and while it may not seem that way to long time comic fans, it is rather silly upon first glance- but it turns out to be a great leadership tool as it ultimately allows him to lead and ironically get respect as an American leader. But to dress him that way in the middle of a war is unpractical.

Yes in the real world a colorful costume is silly...but we arent going to see a movie based on the real world. In World War 1 there was a german pilot who became so good that he was the best in the world...he decided to paint his plane bright red...his fellow pilots laughed at him because they said people could see him coming..."Thats the idea" Thats how the Red Baron came about. Real world. So you think it would be improbable that someone would do that in WW2

And it's not just about the GA, but the reality of the movie itself. I don't like how people say stuff like "If a God can exist, why can't a guy wear a bright outfit to battle without explanation?" because you they're two different fields of reality. One concerns science and laws of the universe, the other has to do with characterization and the real way people behave.

So when the Avengers movie comes about you are not going to have an issue with the Norse god of thunder flying around throwing his hammer, or the meek scientist who can turn into a giant monster...it will be the guy in the flag suit????

 

[Son of Coul]

That's not what I'm taking issue with, what I'm talking about is the logic behind wearing the suit in the first place. It has to make sense WHY he would wear it. And it doesn't have to be elaborate, just logical. I'm willing to suspend disbelief a long ways for the pseudo-science but only a bit for the characters' behavior/attitudes/motivations/thought processes.

 

[roach]

That's not what I'm taking issue with, what I'm talking about is the logic behind wearing the suit in the first place. It has to make sense WHY he would wear it. And it doesn't have to be elaborate, just logical. I'm willing to suspend disbelief a long ways for the pseudo-science but only a bit for the characters' behavior/attitudes/motivations/thought processes.

I am not saying that there shouldnt be a logic behind why he puts the costume on...I am saying the one from the comics fits perfectly. They make him a counter point to the Red Skull. No need to create a whole USO theme, no need to show Cap singing and dancing on stage, no need to see him mad and disobey orders.......By making Cap's origin being based on Red Skulls you have directly linked the two and set them on a path towards confrontation.

 

[Son of Coul]

Well that'd be perfectly fine, I just think the USO idea is good too.

 

[roach]

You said it perfectly it mocks the idea...the mark of a good adaptation is to not mock the fans of the property. I think once you make the costume a silly idea you are going to have a hard time getting behind them for the hero suit.

 

[Son of Coul]

All depends how they execute and handle it. Could be a great twist of irony and be surprisingly inspirational, could be cornball ****. Like I said earlier in the thread, it's tough to make a good call at this point.

 

[roach]

I can only see Cap singing and dancing on stage as corny

 

[marcvader]

Boy, is there alot of narrow mindedness on this thread.

 

[Dragon]

I know. Johnston's followers need to open themselves up to understanding the difference between good and bad writing.

 

[roach]

am I being narrow minded????
I like the changes they made to Spider-man
I am ok with the X-men movie costumes
I like the idea that Green Lantern's movie suit is going to be CGI
I dont have an issue with the multinational cast in Thor

I however have an issue with Captain America in costume singing and dancing on stage. Now if that makes me narrow minded then so be it

 

[roach]

i know. Johnston's followers need to open themselves up to understanding the difference between good and writing.

zing

 

[Dragon]

Who says he wasn't/isn't? You're probably automatically assuming they throw him in the USO without testing/training him because you've already decided the USO idea will suck, and constantly making negative assumptions about it is the only way you can keep convincing yourself that it will suck.

Well, uh.. Thank you for letting me know that. But then, if he's already been in a training/testing facility, then this makes the USO angle even more pointless. Because they'd know that-

1. They can't make anymore super soldiers.
2. That Cap is battle-ready.

So they may as well suit him up and ship him off.

So far. Again, I encourage you to stop acting as if a one paragraph summary of the movie from the director tells you everything there is to know about that movie.

Neither I nor anyone else criticizing this plot point has said we know THE ENTIRE MOVIE based on it. I have said that this idea is crap and the use of it suggests that Johnston's vision for the overall film is suspect.

What, does the indestructible shield, and combat training, and protective gear, suddenly stop working when he's on stage? Is a stage Captain America's Kryptonite?

Kind of. You see, if he's focused on a song and dance routine, it's unlikely that he'll be aware of a sniper aiming at a distance. On the battlefield, he is prepared for gunfire. He's focused and ready. In fact, Cap was "assasinated" a few years back under those circumstances.

Anyway, the costume he's wearing onstage according to Johnston isn't a protective suit. It is indeed merely tights. And i doubt he'll have the vibranium/adamantium shield up there. But that is a leap on my part.

He would probably be safer on the stage because, while he is a sitting target, if he is attacked it would probably be by one guy; a single assassin there specifically to kill him. But if he's on a battlefield, he could have a whole troop of Nazis on his tail. It would be hard to get a troop of Nazis into a USO show without them being noticed.

It would be harder for him to see a single assassin, especially a sniper. On the battlefield, a platoon of Nazi soldiers is more obvious.

So, what's really safer? Putting him on a stage with the prospect of facing a single lone assassin, or putting him on the battlefield with a guarantee he'll come face to face with the entire German army?

Well he spent decades on the battlefield and survived. He was "killed" by a sniper. You do the math.

Yeah, glad you pointed out that there could be Captain America doubles, because it goes hand and hand with my plain sight theory.If they thought the Cap on the USO stage was a double, or just an actor in a costume, what reason would they have to kill him? Will the Nazis just go around killing every guy in a Captain America costume they find?

Oh- okay. So they're going to take up even MORE screentime to establish that there are doubles of Steve in the USO shows. For what reason, exactly?

You weren't supposed to take that literally. And even if you do, a red white and blue costume does make him a walking target, and that almost negates it's protective qualities.

But then, since he's GOING INTO BATTLE, he's already a target. Thus the shield, battle skills and protective suit.

More people noticing Cap=more people shooting at Cap=more people hitting Cap in an area he's not protected (that shield and chain mail can't cover 100% of his body 100% of the time).

First of all, he's SUPPOSED TO BE NOTICED. That's the meaning of propaganda. When he's engaged in a mission, they don't want an anonymous soldier to be kicking Nazi ass. They want a symbolic representation of America to be doing it. And because of his superior fightng skills, protective suit and indestructible shield- the US government are banking that he'll be victorious. And guess what- HE IS.

Again, there is no proof he wasn't trained or studied, and we're yet to get the full details on why he's put into the USO. And no, I don't buy the whole "it's just to explain the costume nothing more arguement" that you guys keep bringing out.I don't care what Johnston quotes you guys produce at this time, unless you've got a half dozen more or a movie trailer to back it up, or the full script in your hands, you can't even begin to pretend you know how certain elements of the movie will play out, or the exact reasoning behind them. It's way to early in the game to be "knowing" anything.

This is a very telling statement.

So you
1. Don't believe Johnston himself.
2. Obviously think it's a bad idea if you're denying the validity of and simply refuse to accept Johnston's own words.

A regular uniform with a bullet proof vest and a helmet would be for protection.

Oh- you mean like it protected the 416,000 soldiers who died in WWII?

The moment you starting changing colors and adding silly headwings for propaganda reasons, you start turning the suit into a costume.

Oh really? So football players wear a costume? When WWII pilots painted sharp teeth on the noses of their planes they were giving the planes a costume?

So, then maybe the USO thing doesn't have to be compelling in and of itself either then? Or does "the rest of the story will make up for it" arguement only apply to the things you like?

But in my explanation, no time is spent on explaining WHY he's in a costume, and more on what happens when he's in it.

The USO angle has alot of time spent focused on a non-compelling concept.

How can you tell the USO angle doesn't add anything to the story? Short answer: you can't, not at this point.

Because it attempts to explain the obvious. Thus it adds nothing.

To tell you the truth, I think you don't want the USO idea to add anything to the story. You want it to fail for no reason other than the fact you don't like it. You're like the people in the U.S. who are secretly hoping something bad will happen to the country just because they hate Obama, and if something bad happens on Obama's watch it will prove that he sucks as president and their hate was justified.

So, you're telling me not to go by Johnston's own words- and yet you, without knowing a damned thing about me make an assumption about what I want to happen. But remember- when you assume you make an ass of yourself.

To you, not to everyone.

Clearly it is to YOU, since you're spending so much time denying it. If you were really cool with the idea you'd be trumpeting Johnston's words.

 

[TikkiEXX]

hmm. well. this is a battle of epic proportions. well snipers were prevalant in a lot of WW2 battlefields and we have no idea about the writing since none of us have seen a script or anything. on the other hand JJ did say Cap would be onstage singing and dancing with chorus girls. that would suck. that is all. lol