First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[Dragon]

why dont we wait a bit and see? thats all im saying. why make your mind up about something so nebulous? and i hate to say it but i used to find Caps outfit a little silly when i didnt know about the character. probably like a bunch of people in the audience. and i can understand where youre coming from Roach but this isnt Fox people, Bryan Singer and Joel Shumacher are nowhere to be found. its ok to have doubts but im gonna trust Marvel until they screw up. and i havent seen anything to lead me to beleive theyre about to as far as Cap goes. matter of fact theres not exactly a whole lot to go on.

Your opinion of Cap's costume makes you the exception, not the rule. His 70 year popularity makes that clear. If you look, you'll find someone who thinks every hero's costume- Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, looks silly. And then there are those who thinks the concept of a superhero costume period is silly. But the audience going into these movies are accepting of such things. There hasn't been a single superhero film that's failed simply because of the costume the hero is in. If the movie works they have no problem with the costumes.

And do you really think Fox is the only studio that makes bad films? Batman & Robin and Superman Returns came from Warner Brothers. And Singer's X-men films from Fox were actually quite good. Moreover Johnston has come up with not one, but several flops in his own right, The Wolfman being only the latest. In fact he's probably had more misses than hits.

 

[afan]

well the thing is we still dont know what cap will be doing in the uso, and then also will regular soliders and folks at the uso even know he is a super solider. the govt will probably keep that aspect of steve's identity secret and the uso thing could be what they are doing well testing is on going with steve, and the thought it could be a way to test him while also doing the propgrada stuff and all. ​

Thought it would be useful to post what we do know.

They’ve come up with a reason to explain why the scientifically enhanced super-soldier wears a bright red, white and blue costume in the World War II battlefields: “After he’s made into this super-soldier, they decide they can’t send him into combat and risk him getting killed. He’s the only one and they can’t make more. So they say, ‘You’re going to be in this USO show’ and they give him a flag suit.” … “So he’s up on stage doing songs and dances with chorus girls and he can’t wait to get out and really fight. When he does go AWOL, he covers up the suit but then, after a few things happen, he realizes that this uniform allows him to lead. By then, he’s become a star in the public mind and a symbol. The guys get behind him because he embodies something special.” The USO outfit will look closer to the classic Jack Kirby-designed costume, but later he will be wearing “a sturdier, more muted version that he makes himself that is more like battle togs. The stripes across his mid-section, for instance, will be straps, not colored fabric.” Johnston says “He realizes the value of the uniform symbols but he modifies his suit and adds some armor, it will be closer to the Cpa costume in some of the comics in more recent years.”

​

 

[TikkiEXX]

Your opinion of Cap's costume makes you the exception, not the rule. His 70 year popularity makes that clear. If you look, you'll find someone who thinks every hero's costume- Superman, Batman, Spider-Man, looks silly. And then there are those who thinks the concept of a superhero costume period is silly. But the audience going into these movies are accepting of such things. There hasn't been a single superhero film that's failed simply because of the costume the hero is in. If the movie works they have no problem with the costumes.

And do you really think Fox is the only studio that makes bad films? Batman & Robin and Superman Returns came from Warner Brothers. And Singer's X-men films from Fox were actually quite good. Moreover Johnston has come up with not one, but several flops in his own right, The Wolfman being only the latest. In fact he's probably had more misses than hits.

JJ has done some good work. i think hes done more good than bad myself. and how do you know im the exception to the rule? you or I have no idea how other people feel about Caps uniform but from people that i know think its a bit silly. im guessing youre going by people in your circle. unless you can take a poll and everyone in the world participates its a moot point. and if there hasnt been a movie thats failed because of a costume, whats wrong with a bit of exposition and fleshing out of the costume? the costume is still in the movie its not like they removed it. i dont think Marvel is going to let this film fail but of course it could. im just not too hung up on this USO thing and id like to know a bit more about the overall movie before i judge the whole thing one way or another. opinions are fun arent they? lol

 

[Rage]

I truly hope that the part about him doing songs and dances is a misquote and they actually mean he is on stage while there is singing and dancing... not that he is doing the singing and dancing. Like I said, I expect a speech about war bonds and doing your part to help the US in the Pacific and European campaigns... I expect maybe a choreographed fight sequence with him fighting Japanese and German soldiers... but GOD I hope there is NO SINGING AND DANCING from Cap!!

 

[Rage]

double post... as per usual.

 

[roach]

thats what it sounds like

 

[roach]

thats what it sounds like

 

[TikkiEXX]

I truly hope that the part about him doing songs and dances is a misquote and they actually mean he is on stage while there is singing and dancing... not that he is doing the singing and dancing. Like I said, I expect a speech about war bonds and doing your part to help the US in the Pacific and European campaigns... I expect maybe a choreographed fight sequence with him fighting Japanese and German soldiers... but GOD I hope there is NO SINGING AND DANCING from Cap!!

lets hope so. hes not exactly Fred Astaire. lol. the war bonds thing sounds way more plausible. but we wont know for sure for a while. sigh

 

[That person]

why who punched Hitler in IB???

Nobody, but featuring that in a Cap movie would give the whole thing a "WW2 revenge fantasy" feel. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but I imagine it would draw some comparisons. That's all I meant by my original post.

 

[Dragon]

JJ has done some good work. i think hes done more good than bad myself.

He's directed 8 feature films. All but 2 have been flops.

and how do you know im the exception to the rule? you or I have no idea how other people feel about Caps uniform but from people that i know think its a bit silly. im guessing youre going by people in your circle. unless you can take a poll and everyone in the world participates its a moot point.

Cap's been around for 70 years. He's had an uninterrupted run in comics for 46 years. He isn't just popular but an icon. They're ready to invest 10s of millions in a film about him. Comics and movies are visual mediums. He wouldn't have the stature he does if most people felt he looked silly . You're definitely the exception.

and if there hasnt been a movie thats failed because of a costume, whats wrong with a bit of exposition and fleshing out of the costume? the costume is still in the movie its not like they removed it.

Because there's alot more story to cover than the costume. Cap's development into a hero. Why he's got a teenager that can keep up with a superhuman. The love interest. The Red Skull's character arc. Not to mention Cap helping to winn the war. Taking up time to explain a costume that we know he's going to have is time away from important story points. Not to mention Cap on stage singing and dancing is..... silly.

i dont think Marvel is going to let this film fail but of course it could. im just not too hung up on this USO thing and id like to know a bit more about the overall movie before i judge the whole thing one way or another. opinions are fun arent they? lol

So to be clear. Cap's costume is silly. His singing and dancing on stage is okay.

Marvel's crew aren't filmmakers. Hell, they struggle even with making good comics these days. So while they may hope for the best, it doesn't necessarily mean they can pull it off. So far they're 1-1 films-wise. So their track record is questionable.

 

[TikkiEXX]

well i happened to love TIH so it seems we just disagree, unless youre talking about IM. on quite a lot of things it seems. but i respect your opinion and dont feel the need to pick apart everything you post. its not even that serious. like ive said before well have to wait in see exactly how this is handled in the film. JJ said the movie would cast an unknown and casting would be done by a certain date(cant remember the exact date) and that didnt turn out exactly like he said now did it? plus we have no idea how much time this,ll take up in the movie, we dont even know how long the movie is. but im done with this topic for now anyway. not really going anywhere but around in circles. ill revisit it when i know more about the script and whatnot

 

[roach]

I love TIH also but the GA didnt...and the fact that we cant get a solid answer on if there will be a Hulk 2 or if Hulk will be in Avengers leads me to believe that it didnt do as welll as they wanted it to.

 

[TikkiEXX]

I love TIH also but the GA didnt...and the fact that we cant get a solid answer on if there will be a Hulk 2 or if Hulk will be in Avengers leads me to believe that it didnt do as welll as they wanted it to.

im sure it didnt. i get a bad feeling we,ll never see a sequel

 

[roach]

I also seem to recall Marvel and Norton didnt get along

 

[TikkiEXX]

I also seem to recall Marvel and Norton didnt get along

well he said recently that the person he had beef with is no longer working for Marvel so that gives me a little hope. we,ll have to see what happens after the Avengers. Norton seems to actually be interested lately.

 

[Webhead2006]

yea i am too hoping for the best and think this could work. But yea we dont have all the details for this plot for the film. And also yea with marvel studios/marvel comic guys running things. I am sure all these things have to be given the ok by them to make it. And so far the marvel studios stuff has been good.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I'm gonna post what I posted in an Avengers thread.

Its a brilliant idea that gives Cap the costume, for people who say its stupid: Thats the point! Its supposed to be a stupid idea concocted by the government and Rogers hates the idea. He trains to be a soldier only to be put in a USO show instead of the war? This part of the story will help display the fighting spirit of Captain America, and it will show that Rogers isn't puppet of the government. It will show that he's willing to be defiant for the greater good.

Rogers takes the serum only to fight in the war, but he just wants to be treated like regular soldier. I can imagine it going like this:

- Captain America is put in the USO show where he receives the costume. Cap hates this.
- An event happens that makes him go AWOL, he hides his costume under his suit.
- Something happens that rips apart the uniform, and shows the Captain America uniform. It becomes the turning point of the battle, and Rogers realizes that he can't just be a regular soldier, but a leader.
- I can see the rest of film showing him slowly become a leader. He's already proven he's a soldier. Now he has to prove that he's a leader.

Plus it could be great reference to the original Captain America comics, which itself was propaganda. It shows that Steve isn't a sign of propaganda, and that Captain America is more than propaganda. He's a soldier, and a leader. The USO idea is a perfect setup.

 

[roach]

I'm gonna post what I posted in an Avengers thread.

Its a brilliant idea that gives Cap the costume, for people who say its stupid: Thats the point! Its supposed to be a stupid idea concocted by the government and Rogers hates the idea. He trains to be a soldier only to be put in a USO show instead of the war? This part of the story will help display the fighting spirit of Captain America, and it will show that Rogers isn't puppet of the government. It will show that he's willing to be defiant for the greater good.

wouldnt a better display of Cap's fighting spirit be him.....fighting. And someone being defiant to the government in the 40's was unheard of.

Rogers takes the serum only to fight in the war, but he just wants to be treated like regular soldier. I can imagine it going like this:

- Captain America is put in the USO show where he receives the costume. Cap hates this.
- An event happens that makes him go AWOL, he hides his costume under his suit.
- Something happens that rips apart the uniform, and shows the Captain America uniform. It becomes the turning point of the battle, and Rogers realizes that he can't just be a regular soldier, but a leader.
- I can see the rest of film showing him slowly become a leader. He's already proven he's a soldier. Now he has to prove that he's a leader.

Plus it could be great reference to the original Captain America comics, which itself was propaganda. It shows that Steve isn't a sign of propaganda, and that Captain America is more than propaganda. He's a soldier, and a leader. The USO idea is a perfect setup.

I am not against the government using him as a propaganda symbol. A much better way to convey these themes is if they decide to use him as a special operative instead of locking him on the USO circuit

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

wouldnt a better display of Cap's fighting spirit be him.....fighting.

Fighting spirit may have been the wrong term to use. What I'm saying is that he takes the serum because he believed this would get him in the war. Putting him in the USO shows while showing the frustration of Steve would be ideal. Some people would be fine that their not fighting in the war. Not Cap.

And someone being defiant to the government in the 40's was unheard of.

Well this is Captain America we're talking about. Him being defying the government and going AWOL to fight in the war will really say something about Cap's willingness to take initiative and it can show his first step towards being a leader. It also makes a statement to the government that they made a mistake and that Cap has potential to be a leader.

I am not against the government using him as a propaganda symbol. A much better way to convey these themes is if they decide to use him as a special operative instead of locking him on the USO circuit

Care to explain? I would like hear an alternative to the USO idea.

 

[roach]

wouldnt a better display of Cap's fighting spirit be him.....fighting.

Fighting spirit may have been the wrong term to use. What I'm saying is that he takes the serum because he believed this would get him in the war. Putting him in the USO shows while showing the frustration of Steve would be ideal. Some people would be fine that their not fighting in the war. Not Cap.

And someone being defiant to the government in the 40's was unheard of.

Well this is Captain America we're talking about. Him being defying the government and going AWOL to fight in the war will really say something about Cap's willingness to take initiative and it can show his first step towards being a leader. It also makes a statement to the government that they made a mistake and that Cap has potential to be a leader.

Care to explain? I would like hear an alternative to the USO idea.

Ok here's an idea. Steve gets the serum and the doc gets killed. Cap gets taken to a lab and studied the hell out of. They dont know what to do with him so they test him.(Now at this point the US isnt in the War but foreward thinking members of the government know that it will be inevitable). Now cut to Europe as the Red Skull is literally scaring governments into bowing before Hitler. The Office of Strategic Services decide that they need to have a counter to Red Skull by creating an American symbol...but who????
Hey we got this supersoldier we aint using. We could turn him into our counter for the Red Skull. Steve is asked an he agrees..not liking the costumes they want him to wear he designs the Captain America costume. In the three weeks Steve learns everything he need(the SSS enhances his brain power). He is given the cover as Private Steve Rogers and kept at a stateside base until the government calls upon him. At this point the Nazis steal the SSS and rest of the movie is about Cap trying to get the SSS back to prevent the Nazis from creating their own supersoldier but at the end we discover that the Red Skull doesnt want to use it to create Supersoldiers he wants to use it as a chemical weapon.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

Ok here's an idea. Steve gets the serum and the doc gets killed. Cap gets taken to a lab and studied the hell out of. They dont know what to do with him so they test him.(Now at this point the US isnt in the War but foreward thinking members of the government know that it will be inevitable). Now cut to Europe as the Red Skull is literally scaring governments into bowing before Hitler. The Office of Strategic Services decide that they need to have a counter to Red Skull by creating an American symbol...but who????
Hey we got this supersoldier we aint using. We could turn him into our counter for the Red Skull. Steve is asked an he agrees..not liking the costumes they want him to wear he designs the Captain America costume. In the three weeks Steve learns everything he need(the SSS enhances his brain power). He is given the cover as Private Steve Rogers and kept at a stateside base until the government calls upon him. At this point the Nazis steal the SSS and rest of the movie is about Cap trying to get the SSS back to prevent the Nazis from creating their own supersoldier but at the end we discover that the Red Skull doesnt want to use it to create Supersoldiers he wants to use it as a chemical weapon.

I like some of ideas but here's the problem. Its difficult to work his costume (whichever one it may be) into a film and I don't like that Rogers himself designs the costume.

I think it would be better to leave the base on his own rather than have the government call on him. I'd like to see them distinguish that Captain America not only fights for America, but fights for truth, justice, and democracy. This may be some of my political bias so you don't take this paragraph seriously, but I don't want him to come off as a tool for the US government. Maybe if he does something that goes against the government's wishes later in the film, that would be fine for me though.

Its still good alternative though.

 

[roach]

I like some of ideas but here's the problem. Its difficult to work his costume (whichever one it may be) into a film and I don't like that Rogers himself designs the costume.
actually thats according to the comics. He designed the Cap costume. He was an artist

I think it would be better to leave the base on his own rather than have the government call on him. I'd like to see them distinguish that Captain America not only fights for America, but fights for truth, justice, and democracy. This may be some of my political bias so you don't take this paragraph seriously, but I don't want him to come off as a tool for the US government. Maybe if he does something that goes against the government's wishes later in the film, that would be fine for me though.

Its still good alternative though.

But in 1940 america people did what their government told them. It doesnt make him a tool.He's doing what he signed up for. if when he gets to the modern era and doesnt do what the govenment says then I would be ok with it. I just prefer that the government direct him rather than he make it all up on his own.

Thanks

I had developed this idea when I thought that the story of how he goes from Steve Rogers, super soldier to Captain America was never told. We dont know who or how he learned everything he did

 

[aka Kal el]

lets hope so. hes not exactly Fred Astaire. lol. the war bonds thing sounds way more plausible. but we wont know for sure for a while. sigh

I wouldn't worry about it too much...

 

[Webhead2006]

i dont think we should be worried really about the whole uso thing. we only had a few off comments about it. And things could change or be different come time to filming. i still think the story will be steve will be continuing testing from the govt while forced to do the uso show. Then he will probably do speechs and maybe soming chorus girls singing/dancing behinh him. Then do feats of strength or what not. And the public doesnt know he is a super solider at all. Then another thing with the possiblity that whedon is doing a script polish the uso stuff could totally change.

 

[roach]

wishful thinking