First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[Dragon]

But it plays a dual role and there for it is NOT only in there to be a starting point for the costume. And Dragon... you asked..."Why would Steve want to fight for his country and NOT be a propaganda for it?"

The answer there is that EVERYONE wanted to go to war and fight the Japanese or the Germans after Pearl Harbor... nobody wanted to talk about doing it...Even without power, Steve Rogers was a man of ACTION... and standing on the sidelines letting someone else fight his battles, wouldn't be in his nature... and that would eat at him.

You didn't answer my question. I wasn't asking why he'd want to fight for his country- I know the answer to that. My question was why would he have a problem being a propaganda outlet for it? He wouldn't and he didn't. But he did learn that there was a weight to bear in being a symbol. That doesn't mean he didn't want to be a symbol. But it could be difficult.

 

[Rage]

But if he had to choose between being a propaganda piece or a soldier, which would Steve Rogers have taken at that time...especially after the scientist who helped to create him was killed before his very eyes?

I think of it like this... your mother/sister/wife is raped and murdered. Would you rather (emotionally) go out and lay a beating on the person who did it... or be the person in the news outside their trial with the sign that every media outlet is going to show a snippet of? You'd probably do better for the cause being the sign carrier... but EVERYONE wants to be the one to go off and lay a beating on the SOB.

...Now think that its not your mother/sister/wife, but rather your country. Now you can sell war bonds and rally the troops...or you could go and get your pound of flesh from the Japanese or Germans. Steve didn't sign up to do nothing... he signed up to hopefully do MORE than anyone else... and that is why he would be frustrated.

 

[Dragon]

Yes, that would work. But since Captain America the character was used as propaganda in real life, it makes sense that Captain America the person would be used as propaganda as well.

And from a storytelling aspect, it makes sense. They don't want to lose the one super soldier they have, but they don't want him to remain invisible either, so they use him for propaganda.

I don't think it makes any sense at all.

1. The army would battle-test him. So they'd know he was effective in combat.
2. The bottomline is that they WILL discover that they can't make anymore super soldiers. So belaying putting him on the battlefield is pointless for the story.
3. Simply putting him in the USO show would be meaningless. A guy in a costume wouldn't serve to inspire the masses just because he's singing and dancing. However- if they put Cap on the battlefield and he wins victories- then he WOULD BE effective propaganda and inspiring to the masses and generate fear in the US' enemies.

 

[Dragon]

But if he had to choose between being a propaganda piece or a soldier, which would Steve Rogers have taken at that time...especially after the scientist who helped to create him was killed before his very eyes?

But then, if the story were written correctly- He wouldn't have to choose!!!!

 

[Infinity9999x]

I don't think it makes any sense at all.

1. The army would battle-test him. So they'd know he was effective in combat.
2. The bottomline is that they WILL discover that they can't make anymore super soldiers. So belaying putting him on the battlefield is pointless for the story.
3. Simply putting him in the USO show would be meaningless. A guy in a costume wouldn't serve to inspire the masses just because he's singing and dancing. However- if they put Cap on the battlefield and he wins victories- then he WOULD BE effective propaganda and inspiring to the masses and generate fear in the US' enemies.

Really? The comic book Cap inspired masses and he wasn't even real. So did Rosie the Riveter, heck, so did Uncle Sam. In fact, I remember reading about a black soldier that they wouldn't let fight, but took propaganda pictures of to inspire other black soldiers to sign up to fight.

Cap would most certainly have inspired, fighting or not. And yeah, to us, having Cap be only a USO creation would be meaningless, but I could honestly see something like that happening. The government would be hesitant to put him in battle because they don't want to lose the one super soldier they have, and they put him in USO to get what they can out of him while they dilly dally around trying to find the "safest" battles they can put him in where he's least likely to get killed.

 

[Rage]

In the actual comics, Steve was not given a costume right away. He was stationed on a base in the US until they decided what to do with him. He went AWOL at night and dressed in a ski mask and leather jacket and chased after spies. It wasn't until he busted a major spy ring that he was given the identity of Captain America (if I remember correctly... this is from The Adventures Of Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty) The USO thing sounds pretty much the same. They don't know what to do with him, but they have to do something...so they stall and put him in the USO.

 

[TikkiEXX]

the battle continues. i get the feeling this will seem pretty silly when more details of the movie come out. instead of some quotes from a old assed interview.

 

[roach]

In the actual comics, Steve was not given a costume right away. He was stationed on a base in the US until they decided what to do with him. He went AWOL at night and dressed in a ski mask and leather jacket and chased after spies. It wasn't until he busted a major spy ring that he was given the identity of Captain America (if I remember correctly... this is from The Adventures Of Captain America: Sentinel of Liberty) The USO thing sounds pretty much the same. They don't know what to do with him, but they have to do something...so they stall and put him in the USO.

that might not be 616 continuity as its not mentioned in the Captain America Ominbus I have.

 

[Dragon]

Really? The comic book Cap inspired masses and he wasn't even real. So did Rosie the Riveter, heck, so did Uncle Sam. In fact, I remember reading about a black soldier that they wouldn't let fight, but took propaganda pictures of to inspire other black soldiers to sign up to fight.

Okay- first off, Cap wasn't used by the US government as a propaganda tool He was only used by Timely Comics in that manner. And he wasn't even the only patriotic character- or even the first. He was very popular to comic book fans. But the public in general sure as hell weren't signing up for duty because of a comic book character. And the black soldier you're talking about is Joe Louis, who was the world boxing champ. He gave exhibitions while in the army. He inspired because he was a genuine hero- because he FOUGHT.

And- Even if Cap was inspiring to anyone it was because he was FIGHTING in the comics. Not up on stage singing and dancing.

Cap would most certainly have inspired, fighting or not.

Inspired laughter, maybe. But not anyone to go into combat. Why would he?

And yeah, to us, having Cap be only a USO creation would be meaningless, but I could honestly see something like that happening.

Why?

The government would be hesitant to put him in battle because they don't want to lose the one super soldier they have, and they put him in USO to get what they can out of him while they dilly dally around trying to find the "safest" battles they can put him in where he's least likely to get killed.

And this is a waste of screentime. Sure- Peter Parker could've held-off being Spider-Man because he was afraid he'd get killed and leave Aunt May alone. But we know that regardless, he's going to do it, so why "dilly dally" with an unneeded plot point?

There are far more important components to Captain America's story than this that need time to develop.

 

[Rage]

...And this is a waste of screentime. Sure- Peter Parker could've held-off being Spider-Man because he was afraid he'd get killed and leave Aunt May alone. But we know that regardless, he's going to do it, so why "dilly dally" with an unneeded plot point?

There are far more important components to Captain America's story than this that need time to develop.

Its thinking like this that gave us the craptacular 90s version of Captain America. If you don't spend the time to set up who Steve Rogers is and what drives him... Cap becomes a very vanilla character... and as a person who really loves this character, that is the worst thing you could do. Who he is, is not as easy to define as other heroes... he's not a guy out for revenge because his parents were killed... or a teen that learns that with great power comes great responsibility... or a scientist who gets turned into a monster by gamma radiation... THERE IS MORE TO HIM THAN THAT.

And if you don't explore those aspects of him, he loses his appeal as a hero and becomes purely propoganda... and that could hurt the movie's international Box Office appeal

 

[Infinity9999x]

Okay- first off, Cap wasn't used by the US government as a propaganda tool He was only used by Timely Comics in that manner. And he wasn't even the only patriotic character- or even the first. He was very popular to comic book fans. But the public in general sure as hell weren't signing up for duty because of a comic book character. And the black soldier you're talking about is Joe Louis, who was the world boxing champ. He gave exhibitions while in the army. He inspired because he was a genuine hero- because he FOUGHT.

And- Even if Cap was inspiring to anyone it was because he was FIGHTING in the comics. Not up on stage singing and dancing.



Inspired laughter, maybe. But not anyone to go into combat. Why would he?



Why?



And this is a waste of screentime. Sure- Peter Parker could've held-off being Spider-Man because he was afraid he'd get killed and leave Aunt May alone. But we know that regardless, he's going to do it, so why "dilly dally" with an unneeded plot point?

There are far more important components to Captain America's story than this that need time to develop.

Was Joe Louis fighting the Nazis? Was he doing anything to help win the war? No, he wasn't. Was Uncle Sam doing anything to help win the war? No. Was Rosie the Riveter actually out there working to inspire other women to join the work force? Nope.

And there are tons of stories of Cap comics being given to soldiers to keep the morale up and such, and was Cap a real person fighting? No he wasn't.

And that's what it comes down to. Will the general public know that the Captain America in the USO stages isn't out on the battlefront fighting? No they won't, but I bet he'll be advertised like he was, and that's probably one thing that will be driving Cap crazy.

And why could I see a government organization not wanting to lose the one supersoldier they have? Because its the government. They had planned to have an army of Steve Rogers, but they didn't. However, they could still advertise the fact that they had a super soldier without actually putting him in harms way. Because in their minds, how much could one man actually help on the battlefield? But they know how important morale is in times of war, and they use Steve accordingly.

 

[Dragon]

Its thinking like this that gave us the craptacular 90s version of Captain America. If you don't spend the time to set up who Steve Rogers is and what drives him... Cap becomes a very vanilla character... and as a person who really loves this character, that is the worst thing you could do. Who he is, is not as easy to define as other heroes... he's not a guy out for revenge because his parents were killed... or a teen that learns that with great power comes great responsibility... or a scientist who gets turned into a monster by gamma radiation... THERE IS MORE TO HIM THAN THAT.

And if you don't explore those aspects of him, he loses his appeal as a hero and becomes purely propoganda... and that could hurt the movie's international Box Office appeal

So, when I say there are more important components to Cap's story to devote screentime to, what did you think I was talking about?

Actually a page or two back i posted what I think the film should be focused on, and it was definitely all about exploring who Steve Rogers is.

And ironically- I think the USO deal is an idea worthy of the '91 Cap fiasco.

And about the comic story you mentioned where Steve goes AWOL:

1. That was from a retcon written in the 80's.
2. Not every scene ever written needs to be in the film. In Spider-Man's early comics he was also a stage performer. But that didn't make onto the screen.
3. Even if they went with that, it'd be better than having him on a USO stage.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I like the whole idea of using him as propoganda. It doesn't make it good cinema when all of a sudden Steve is juiced up and suddenly saying "Okay let's get the Nazis!' There has to be reluctance. It's suicide on film for dramatic purposes. Being a hero isn't easy for anyone. What's it like to be a symbol of America during a war? They seem to want to explore this and I'm game for it. If it gives Rogers a deeper and interesting meaning then I'm good. He doesn't want to be treated like some call guy who does anything the government wants. There has to be more to it. Anything less than that then it's uninteresting.

 

[roach]

I like the whole idea of using him as propoganda. It doesn't make it good cinema when all of a sudden Steve is juiced up and suddenly saying "Okay let's get the Nazis!' There has to be reluctance. It's suicide on film for dramatic purposes. Being a hero isn't easy for anyone. What's it like to be a symbol of America during a war? They seem to want to explore this and I'm game for it. If it gives Rogers a deeper and interesting meaning then I'm good. He doesn't want to be treated like some call guy who does anything the government wants. There has to be more to it. Anything less than that then it's uninteresting.

didnt seem to hurt Batman in Batman Begins...no reluctancy there

 

[Infinity9999x]

didnt seem to hurt Batman in Batman Begins...no reluctancy there

But he had a period of searching for himself before he realized what he wanted to do. He didn't have it in his mind from the day his parents were killed that he was going to be a hero.

 

[TikkiEXX]

Batman is not Cap tho. ive said before i wouldnt mind if Cap was a little scared at first. if he wasnt hed have to be damn near insane. and he could grow into the kickass leader over time.

 

[Dragon]

Was Joe Louis fighting the Nazis? Was he doing anything to help win the war? No, he wasn't.

But Joe Louis had proven himself a warrior and hero BEFORE he was brought into the army. A Costumed guy on stage doesn't have those street creds.

Was Uncle Sam doing anything to help win the war? No. Was Rosie the Riveter actually out there working to inspire other women to join the work force? Nope.

Those were cartoon characters. But putting a guy in an Uncle Sam outfit on stage wouldn't serve to mobilize people. He'd just be seen as a joke.

And there are tons of stories of Cap comics being given to soldiers to keep the morale up and such, and was Cap a real person fighting? No he wasn't.[/quoote]

Cap comics, Superman comics, Captain Marvel comics, Mickey Mouse comics etc. etc. They were entertainment, not a means to inspire people to fight in the war.

And that's what it comes down to. Will the general public know that the Captain America in the USO stages isn't out on the battlefront fighting? No they won't, but I bet he'll be advertised like he was, and that's probably one thing that will be driving Cap crazy.

WHAT??? No, they wouldn't sell a non-fighting Cap that way. There'd be news reel footage of him in action or at least the aftermath of his battles. Soldiers would be telling stories about him, etc. And if they were going to do all of this, they might as well actually put him on the battlefield.

And why could I see a government organization not wanting to lose the one supersoldier they have? Because its the government. They had planned to have an army of Steve Rogers, but they didn't. However, they could still advertise the fact that they had a super soldier without actually putting him in harms way. Because in their minds, how much could one man actually help on the battlefield? But they know how important morale is in times of war, and they use Steve accordingly.

Okay.. I'm not arguing the logic of Johnston's concept in terms of the government not wanting to risk losng him. I'm arguing the logic of taking up SCREENTIME for such an idea, when the movie will play better with Cap in action and focusing on more important story points, such as Steve dealing with the burden of being Cap IN COMBAT.

Like I said- it's logical that Peter Parker would have some reservations about becoming a crime fighter. But we didn't need to take up screentime for that. No matter what- Cap ends up on the battlefield. So lhe story should focus on that aspect rather than- again dilly-dallying on why he isn't there. And especially if the main point is only to put him in a costume.

 

[roach]

Batman is not Cap tho. ive said before i wouldnt mind if Cap was a little scared at first. if he wasnt hed have to be damn near insane. and he could grow into the kickass leader over time.

and yes he should be scared...but ppl want a scene where he questions the government or hates the suit???

 

[Rage]

So, when I say there are more important components to Cap's story to devote screentime to, what did you think I was talking about?

Actually a page or two back i posted what I think the film should be focused on, and it was definitely all about exploring who Steve Rogers is.

And ironically- I think the USO deal is an idea worthy of the '91 Cap fiasco.

And about the comic story you mentioned where Steve goes AWOL:

1. That was from a retcon written in the 80's.
2. Not every scene ever written needs to be in the film. In Spider-Man's early comics he was also a stage performer. But that didn't make onto the screen.
3. Even if they went with that, it'd be better than having him on a USO stage.

I just went back and searched out the post you were referring to... and you make some really good points in it about Steve being who he is, not because of his body, but because of his mind...I agree wholeheartedly. But your reluctance to the USO show baffles me. It can be done (on film) in less time than the AWOL Steve Rogers spy-busting... and brings the suit into battle (all be it by accident) but gets it there non the less. I think that the USO scenes should be about 10-15 minutes of him hating it and possibly hearing the G.I.s talking about what a phony Cap is while on a pass or something. Of course we all figure that Bucky getting in trouble is what makes him go AWOL...but maybe the need to actually MAKE A DIFFERENCE is what really drives him. Seeing the wounded and hearing the horror stories and knowing that he could make a difference.

I too have posted that we need to see a pre-serum Steve getting his ass kicked because he refuses to back down from fights that he knows he can't win... and we need to see that he is upset about Japanese internment, racial segregation and other issues of the day... not to mention the war outside the US.

I just don't think that the USO angle is that bad an idea. And unlike some, I don't take little snippets of info that the director let slip before he was actually working on the film, as the gods honest truth. I'll wait and see and hope for the best... I always do.

 

[Dragon]

I like the whole idea of using him as propoganda. It doesn't make it good cinema when all of a sudden Steve is juiced up and suddenly saying "Okay let's get the Nazis!' There has to be reluctance. It's suicide on film for dramatic purposes. Being a hero isn't easy for anyone. What's it like to be a symbol of America during a war? They seem to want to explore this and I'm game for it. If it gives Rogers a deeper and interesting meaning then I'm good. He doesn't want to be treated like some call guy who does anything the government wants. There has to be more to it. Anything less than that then it's uninteresting.[/

That's not true at all. The drama would come from what Steve has to deal with AFTER he sees what "getting the Nazis" entails.

Refer to The Godfather. Michael is juiced up to kill the Turk. But after he does it, things aren't as easy as he thought it would be. Then when he takes over the family business, things only become worse for him, despite his being an effective Don.

Steve should start off enthusiastic and ready. Then after becoming Cap he finds how tough it is. That it's a lonely existence. That he has to conflict with those he's taking orders from. There are plenty of challenges for him to face without wasting time on this USO cheez.

 

[roach]

I just don't think that the USO angle is that bad an idea. And unlike some, I don't take little snippets of info that the director let slip before he was actually working on the film, as the gods honest truth. I'll wait and see and hope for the best... I always do.

the reason the director was able to talk about this and describe the suit is because Marvel Studios has been working on this before he got to the film. This was all apart of the story before JJ showed up. LL saw the designs and basic story and commented on it a few months after IH came out. Evans was hired as Cap after he saw the designs and liked what he saw. I dont understand how the director is now not credible when it comes to the film he is directing

 

[Rage]

He was doing press for Wolfman at the time and his major objective is to push... The Wolfman. Sooo while he has seen what Marvel and the pre-production people have done... I'm sure, he's not watching every word that comes out of his mouth and doesn't think he needs to describe in vivid detail, everything he knows about the movie. He answers a question, quickly and to the point about a project that he is ABOUT to start work on. He's not thinking that Fanboys around the world are going to be debating his every syllable.

 

[roach]

did you read the interview???
Those were not quick off the top of his head answers.
This is getting frustrating. You guys are using your conjecture and what you thought the director should have said against what he said. Should I not be concerned that the director mentioned him singing on stage or should I bury my head in the sand and pretend he didnt say it.

 

[Rage]

I have read the interview. The key word is "read" which means that the interview is subject to interpretation because we do not have the audio/video to get the entire context of the interview. He could be answering these questions with a big grin on his face or deadpan serious....we don't know. I can take from the interview that he thinks that Cap's costume is a tad silly (AND IT IS!!) and that he wants to make the movie a bit more realistic (which I like) and I like where this movie is heading (story wise)

I WOULD BE MORE CONCERNED WITH THE DIRECTOR AND CAST than the scrip and pre-production at this point. This movie has a middle of the road actor as Cap. A genre actor (a fine one at that) as the villian and a couple of nobodies as the supporting cast so far. And the directors body of work leaves a bit to be desired. (although Favreau was a strange choice at the time)

 

[roach]

I do have concerns about JJ. I think Evans is the best out of what they had. I know little about Thor and I have no issues with anything I have heard about the film...and Fav got the job because he is a big Iron Man fan...proved it on the set of DD