First Avenger "Over There"....The USO plot point thread

[roach]

I give up, theres no real damn point arguing. Either you agree with the USO thing or you dont, i personally think it adds more depth to the character and its a great way to explain the meaning and importance of the costume, if you feel otherwise then its your loss, i'll be enjoying the movie when it comes out.

How is it anyone's loss???
I dont think anyone in this thread has said they arent going to see this movie.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I was discussing the realism in terms of the costume. It is believeable that the US would stick him on the USO circuit...we are debating if its logical. Yes people say they want SPR but there is no way to do that with this type of movie. Cap is not gritty. Cap's movie should be done more in the lines of Indiana Jones and the Rocketeer(which is how JJ got the job).

Logical from a creative standpoint or logical from the government's standpoint in the film?

And Punisher I doubt anyone's not gonna see this film because of the USO plot point, especially if it doesn't really last that long.

 

[roach]

Logical from a creative standpoint or logical from the government's standpoint in the film?

And Punisher I doubt anyone's not gonna see this film because of the USO plot point, especially if it doesn't really last that long.

To me if the government was afraid to lose him then the logical thing would to have him locked in a lab where they test him day and night,,,that way you can still have this scene where he wants to fight but cant cause he's in a lab....it avoids a potentially embarrassing scene where he is on stage singing and dancing.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

To me if the government was afraid to lose him then the logical thing would to have him locked in a lab where they test him day and night,,,that way you can still have this scene where he wants to fight but cant cause he's in a lab....it avoids a potentially embarrassing scene where he is on stage singing and dancing.

I have no problem with you not liking the USO idea. We all want a good Cap film. But I'm getting the feeling that you're a little too wrapped up in that one quote about Cap singing and dancing. Its not a problem, but it sounds more like you had a bad singing or dancing experience before .

 

[Rage]

Me too. But so far that hasn't worked with you guys.



Here's the logic:

In this FICTIONAL REALM where super soldiers can exist the Nazis have a man in costume called The Red Skull. He's a propaganda tool used to generate terror. The US Government, realizing that there will be ONLY ONE super soldier think they need to get as much bang for their buck- and turn him into a propaganda tool as well. But rather than creating a figure that will generate fear, they want one that will generate pride and present the American Way as being one of righteousness. Also, they don't want this single super soldier to become a celebrity in his own right. So he wears a mask. He doesn't represent himself, he represents ALL of America.

Then- of course, the suit offers him protection. It's fire-resistent. The shield protects him from impact, but the suit protects him from heat and also offers some padding against falls and shrapnel.

And, being that comic books and movies are art- there's a need for the suit to present style. If you're going to argue against Cap's costume, you have to argue aganist every cotume in not just comic book films but sci-fi films, fantasy films- hell even in the real world.



No he wasn't. Point to a reference to this in the source material. WW2, unlike Vietnam or Iraq was supported by most Americans. So US propaganda was welcomed. That's why the comic book character of Captain America was created in the first place.




And he is. Being a soldier has nothing to do with the color of uniform you wear. It isn't as if standard US soldier gear offered any particular protection.



Exactly. Only in the source material, the gov't guys make it for battle FROM THE BEGINNING. They never send him out in just a flag suit. Steve doesn't have to redesign it. So the USO plot point is completely unnecessary.



Thus the INDESTRUCTIBLE SHIELD. I mean, I don't know where you're going with this, because he's never outfitted with Iron Man type armor.



And Peter Parker could've died from the radioactive Spider venom. Bruce Banner could've been vaporized by the gamma bomb blast. Tony' Stark's weakened heart could fail regardless of the chest plate. Superman could be shot through the heart with a kryptonie bullet. They all could die, and yet they don't. And again- the USO thing changes none of this.



A synbol of what? He's a guy in a costume singing and dancing. He hasn't been in battle. He's just a clown.



Right. On the battlefield. Not singing and dancing on a stage.



Uh.. who said it isn't made for battle? Even the POS '91 Cap movie said within seconds of showing him in costume that it was fireproof. The scaling on the upper body has always been described as chainmail. I thought you said you were a Cap fan.

The only one talking about putting Steve in just a suit of unprotective red white and blue fabric is Johnston and you.

Think of the FRUSTRATION you feel having to defend this point of view to every halfwitted fanboy out there. You say the same thing over and over and over and over and seems like although they hear you... they are not listening to you...

... THIS IS HOW CAP WILL FEEL BEING STUCK IN THE USO INSTEAD OF GOING OFF TO BATTLE LIKE HE WANTS! You are saying the idea is a dumb idea... THAT IS THE POINT! It's the very frustration that you feel, that will fuel Steve to go AWOL (with the suit) and attempt to join the "good fight"

Atleast you can voice your opinion... where as Steve would have to bite his lip and listen to the pinheads who make the decisions because he is in the military.

I like the idea... because it is so F'in frustrating!!

 

[roach]

I have no problem with you not liking the USO idea. We all want a good Cap film. But I'm getting the feeling that you're a little too wrapped up in that one quote about Cap singing and dancing. Its not a problem, but it sounds more like you had a bad singing or dancing experience before .

frakkin Simon...I should have been the next American Idol

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I feel your pain, So you think you can dance screwed me over. The Running man is a very complicated dance move that takes much skill to pull off!

 

[Dragon]

Think of the FRUSTRATION you feel having to defend this point of view to every halfwitted fanboy out there. You say the same thing over and over and over and over and seems like although they hear you... they are not listening to you...

... THIS IS HOW CAP WILL FEEL BEING STUCK IN THE USO INSTEAD OF GOING OFF TO BATTLE LIKE HE WANTS! You are saying the idea is a dumb idea... THAT IS THE POINT! It's the very frustration that you feel, that will fuel Steve to go AWOL (with the suit) and attempt to join the "good fight"

Atleast you can voice your opinion... where as Steve would have to bite his lip and listen to the pinheads who make the decisions because he is in the military.

I like the idea... because it is so F'in frustrating!!

Well, you're right in that it' extremely frustrating...

But my point is that there are far more serious, important, frustrating, not to mention life-threatening things to focus on.

Survives childhood frailty.
Becomes the lone Super Soldier.
Wins countless victories against terrible odds.
Teenage partner is killed.
Loses wartime love.
Loses decades of his life in suspended animation.
Becomes organizing member of the Avengers.

Being stuck in the USO for a few months would be a footnote in Cap's biography.

And then when you factor in that the main purpose is only to explain his acquiring a costume it simply says, to me at least, that Johnston is focusing on the wrong things.

 

[marcvader]

So Johnston said that the focus of the movie is how Cap gets his costume and the USO?

 

[afan]

how do we know they dont test him? i dont recall anyone saying that they dont. and is a fireproof costume gonna stop a bullet? can he block a mortar shell with that shield without getting blown to bits? who knows maybe they wont test him, but we dont know that yet. dont even know if the suit is gonna be fireproof and all that. dont know much of anything actually. and please dont post those quotes from JJ again like its the final script or something

The "battle togs" costume as addressed in Johnston's quotes will be hacked together by Rogers using the theatrical USO design as a model, and obviously there is nothing hi-tech about that, nor is there any potential explanation or even mention of the shield.......that is if we go solely by the director's words

However the classic costume and shield, which is not dependant on the USO plot device, and is created for the sole purpose of making Steve Rogers Captain America, is. The protective qualities of the suit are highly advanced tech. The shield, amazingly light and indestructable, is fabricated from an alloy of Earth metals and a mysterious metal from a meteorite, granting it fantastic properties one of which I believe is the ability to absorb shock. So the "super-hero" Cap could easily charge into gunfire, and absorb explosive impacts. The Joe Johnston Cap....not so much.

 

[afan]

So Johnston said that the focus of the movie is how Cap gets his costume and the USO?

No...the focus of the USO is to explain how Cap gets the costume.
Have you read the quotes?

 

[marcvader]

I'm guessing first act-costume, second act-Rogers "cobbled battle togs", and third act-govn't sanctioned suit. I doubt Johnson was going to spill the beans at a Wolfman press junket and tell us every detail about the Cap movie if at all for that matter. I think he should have kept his mouth shut like they are doing over at Thor.

 

[afan]

I'm guessing first act-costume, second act-Rogers "cobbled battle togs", and third act-govn't sanctioned suit. I doubt Johnson was going to spill the beans at a Wolfman press junket and tell us every detail about the Cap movie if at all for that matter. I think he should have kept his mouth shut like they are doing over at Thor.

You're leaving out the introduction to 98lb weakling Rogers. Certainly that is worthy of decent screen time. Aside from the cringe worthy fear that Cap will actually be singing and dancing, I think that the USO device needlessly consumes valuable screen time from an already compelling story.

 

[marcvader]

Of course they'll cover that. I was only talking about the outfits.

 

[Dragon]

You're leaving out the introduction to 98lb weakling Rogers. Certainly that is worthy of decent screen time. Aside from the cringe worthy fear that Cap will actually be singing and dancing, I think that the USO device needlessly consumes valuable screen time from an already compelling story.

It really does. Especially when you consider that in a reasonable sequence of events, the military guys wouldn't send Steve out in a suit that didn't offer protection in the first place. Even before the first super soldier experiement they'd have been desiging the protective gear and even been experimenting with advanced weaponry. It's only the flag-theme that would be the after thought when they realized that Steve would be the only one.

 

[afan]

Of course they'll cover that. I was only talking about the outfits.

I see...my bad.......probably would need to go that way....but does it really need to be that convoluted? If it is to be the end result; why not the government sanctioned, cutting edge costume from the get go.

Here's a thought......
We have a super-hero period film in WWII. The protagonist is obvious...Captain America........the antagonist is obvious also, Nazi Germany, specifically The Red Skull.......or is it........by creating the USO plot point, meant in part to create a frustrated Steve Rogers, aren't you also making the US Army an antagonist in the film? If so, is that desirable?

 

[Rage]

Here's how I see it... He's in the USO in a stage costume. He then goes AWOL (very quickly) with his stage costume still on, which he covers up with a regulation uniform or some civilian clothes. During a battle, his "other clothes" are ripped apart and reveal the cap "costume" Rogers realizes that it inspires the troops and decides to continue wearing it. He then starts to cobble together more sturdy elements for the costume (while still AWOL) He wears this until the third act, when the government finally gets a hold of him and gives him an actual uniform (made special for him by the military)

And the whole USO angle can be done in ten or 15 minutes of the film (or less) like the opening of the Last Samuri.

I like the idea.

 

[Rage]

Well, you're right in that it' extremely frustrating...

But my point is that there are far more serious, important, frustrating, not to mention life-threatening things to focus on.

Survives childhood frailty.
Becomes the lone Super Soldier.
Wins countless victories against terrible odds.
Teenage partner is killed.
Loses wartime love.
Loses decades of his life in suspended animation.
Becomes organizing member of the Avengers.

Being stuck in the USO for a few months would be a footnote in Cap's biography.

And then when you factor in that the main purpose is only to explain his acquiring a costume it simply says, to me at least, that Johnston is focusing on the wrong things.
Today 04:55 AM

Dragon... I agree with 99% of this. I just don't think that the USO angle is going to diminish the story (if done right and not lingered on...although lingering could be a good way to help amp up the frustration of both Roger and the audience)

 

[Dragon]

Dragon... I agree with 99% of this. I just don't think that the USO angle is going to diminish the story (if done right and not lingered on...although lingering could be a good way to help amp up the frustration of both Roger and the audience)

I think it diminishes the story for two key reasons.

1. Again, despite how much some of you want to believe that Johnston wasn't in his right mind or whatever, he said the purpose of the USO plot point was to explain the costume. He didn't say it was mainly to show Steve's frustration with being kept off the battlefield. That was to be a by-product.

2. Even if the frustration idea was the main focus of the USO thing it would still be wrong. Because Cap's story isn't about his frustration of wanting to fight but being denied. In actuality, it's the exact opposite of that. It's "Be careful what you wish for..." Because Cap's life is really nothing BUT combat.
Off-topic, but on topic- Tarantino was incorrect in his assessment of Superman in Kill Bill. Superman isn't the real identity. He was Clark Kent before he decided to use his powers for the benefit of mankind. He became Superman only because of his being Clark Kent first. But- Steve Rogers is absolutely Captain America. Everything in his life, every gain, every loss, is due to his being Captain America. Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Tony Stark, all have lives separate from their superhero personas. Cap doesn't. His friends, his loves, all came from his career as Cap.

So, to focus on a very short period when he wasn't fighting and moreover to contrive such a period, is actually breaking the rhythm of Cap's true story.

 

[Mrs. Sawyer]

I think it diminishes the story for two key reasons.

1. Again, despite how much some of you want to believe that Johnston wasn't in his right mind or whatever, he said the purpose of the USO plot point was to explain the costume. He didn't say it was mainly to show Steve's frustration with being kept off the battlefield. That was to be a by-product.

2. Even if the frustration idea was the main focus of the USO thing it would still be wrong. Because Cap's story isn't about his frustration of wanting to fight but being denied. In actuality, it's the exact opposite of that. It's "Be careful what you wish for..." Because Cap's life is really nothing BUT combat.
Off-topic, but on topic- Tarantino was incorrect in his assessment of Superman in Kill Bill. Superman isn't the real identity. He was Clark Kent before he decided to use his powers for the benefit of mankind. He became Superman only because of his being Clark Kent first. But- Steve Rogers is absolutely Captain America. Everything in his life, every gain, every loss, is due to his being Captain America. Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, Clark Kent, Tony Stark, all have lives separate from their superhero personas. Cap doesn't. His friends, his loves, all came from his career as Cap.

So, to focus on a very short period when he wasn't fighting and moreover to contrive such a period, is actually breaking the rhythm of Cap's true story.

You have some great points. However:

1. Just because he didn't say people are just assuming that it will also be about that, including me. Its just speculation at this point. It could possibly be also about Steve's frustration with being on the battlefield. I don't think that Johnston would be stupid enough to put the USO scenes in the film without it meaning more than "just getting the costume".

2. It can still be about that. This is not gonna be a huge theme in the film. Steve gets frustrated about fighting, goes AWOL, fights on the battlefield, does well on the battlefield and the government lets the AWOL thing slide and actually awards him with the circular shield (assuming he starts with the triangular shield.)

I think you're magnifying the USO part of the film too much. It still can be "Be careful what you wish for..." and in fact it can play into too. He continues to wanna fight on the battlefield and his life be nothing but combat. You say its about him being denied, and yet with the USO scenes despite him being top human physical shape he s still being denied due to the idea being considered a risk.

Its not like the whole first hour of the film will be USO. I'm thinking only 5-10 minutes. Its kinda like what was done in Star Trek (the 2009 film) in which Kirk is already been in the academy for 3 year already (not saying that the USO scenes will be chronologically that long) but they can just show him in a USO scene and then have him go AWOL. It doesn't have to be long.

 

[mrsjohnnystorm]

Stark Expo to Appear in "Captain America"

LA Times sat down with director Jon Favreau to talk about his upcoming "Iron Man" sequel and the connections it may have to other Marvel movies like "Captain America," "Thor" and "The Avengers."

Part of the marketing campaign for the film, the studio has been releasing videos promoting the Stark Expo, which is an event created by Tony Stark's father and revived by the superhero billionaire. Favreau explained that the history of the Expo will come up in other Marvel films.

He said: "The Expo dates back to the 1930s, but the last one was in 1974 when Tony's father was still alive and Tony was just a kid. It does figure in to the other films because in the Captain America movie you're going to see the early one, which I think is a lot of fun. They're going to have a reference to Tony's father, Howard Stark, played by John Slattery, and his earlier Expo. But I don't want to say more than that."

SOURCE

Could the Stark Expo be part of the USO? I suppose the chances are quite likely.

 

[mrsjohnnystorm]

Double post.

 

[Webhead2006]

i still hope come time film comes out we all will look back and laugh at all this debate we had here and it turns out to be a good thing for the film. hopefully it will work and all that. For me yea i think they will probably be testing him while he is at the uso. also i doubt they will be calling steve a super solider at the uso show. like others have said he will probably be used during the uso show as progragda which he did want. And during this show he could be doing this and that and maybe they give him a flimsy Steel triangel shield.

which when he goes awol to fight to use there. But it gets destroyed and also his uso suit. So then it leads to the suit he gets on the battlefield, and the govt probably issues him the Rounds indestructible shield and all that. Also another point we have to look at. We dont know in this new marvel studios marvel movie verse if there has been super powered guys dating back to the ww2 era, or if this film verse with super folks starting up here in the 40s and all that.

 

[Rage]

I think it diminishes the story for two key reasons.

2. Even if the frustration idea was the main focus of the USO thing it would still be wrong. Because Cap's story isn't about his frustration of wanting to fight but being denied. In actuality, it's the exact opposite of that. It's "Be careful what you wish for..." Because Cap's life is really nothing BUT combat...

So, to focus on a very short period when he wasn't fighting and moreover to contrive such a period, is actually breaking the rhythm of Cap's true story.

I respectfully disagree. Steve Rogers whole motivation for going through the SSS program is so he can go to war and fight because he was considered too fragile or frail to go to war... and that is ALL he wants to do.

Then... he gets the opportunity to go to war, all he has to do is put his "worthless" life on the line and he will become a great physical specimen and they will send him to war...so he risks everything and becomes the perfect soldier... only to be held out of the war because now he is too "valuable" an asset to put into battle. HE RISKS EVERYTHING TO GO TO BATTLE AND NOW THEY WON'T LET HIM GO.

So yes, this is a short period of time in Steve Rogers life...it is THE MOST IMPORTANT. Its like saying Bruce Wayne's parents were killed in a matter of seconds, we don't need to see that in a movie because Batman is about hunting down criminals and keeping Gotham safe, we don't need to see his motivation for that.... or give it screen time... that eats up time well used on the good stuff.... except... that is the good stuff!!

So while this story angle is new to the Cap mythos... I think that it will help serve to make Cap a more relatable hero and person.

 

[roach]

To be fair the death of Bruce Wayne's parents is integral to the character..its why he goes out every night in a Bat suit...the USO is not integral to the Cap story.