Prometheus - Part 8

[Figs]

There's a difference between hold your and bad story telling.

I agree with you that there is a difference, but like with a lot of other movies in this day and age we live in, what a lot of people are calling bad story telling I see as nitpicks.

 

[dark_b]

anyone thinks the Engineer from the prologue was CGI?

 

[jmc]

I like an intelligent movie as much as the next guy, but sometimes a film isn't as smart as it thinks it is, and Prometheus is one of those films. It's flawed, beautifully shot but it's extremely flawed, people are understanding what the film was trying to say but the problem was the execution, there are some glaring plot holes in the film, genuine WTF moments which negates the themes it was trying to convey, themes which are never really delved into at any great length and which are brushed aside for some pretty standard horror cliches.

 

[Liam_H]

Maybe since he looked kinda too perfect but I guess that was the point.

 

[chaseter]

Dude, it's one thing to have speculation about themes and stuff: I'm not saying the director/writers should've held our hand through the entire movie. I enjoyed the opening and thought that kind of scene is the "right" kind of speculation.

It's another thing entirely to speculate about characters actions/non-actions based on things that didn't even happen on screen. You can't sit here and say "Well they had other things on their minds!" because that's just lazy writing. When a character has a goal--like David freezing the embryo--and then completely abandons that goal with no acknowledgement whatsoever, it's lazy writing. There's no scene showing that David or any of the crew is even aware that the alien embryo was removed or sterilized or whatever...they just carry on with their lives and nobody even asks any questions. It's l-a-z-y.

And yes, it was a plot device. The whole purpose of the alien embryo was so that Shaw could release it in the final battle against the Jockey. That's literally what a plot device does: it serves no purpose but to advance the plot at some key point. In this case, it would've also served to lead into Alien, but evidently that's all up in the air as well.

How "deep!"

You didn't pay attention if you didn't see them acknowledge that they knew Shaw removed it. Blank and David both acknowledge it.

Again...what did you want too see them do about it? How can you not see that blank has literally little life to live, that was also mentioned, and that he wanted to meet his maker ASAP. If you don't think that trumps their previous experiments or that one dead embryo when a ship full of squid juice is on board would make them focus on that instead of a dead squid baby then you will never change your mind.

I wouldn't be shocked if there is a deleted scene with a line mentioning it but of course that has to be in the movie for it not to be a plot hole for some people...because you can't speculate character motives or actions apparently.

 

[DACrowe]

Anyway, those who are looking for answers on the bigger ideas, this blog post (though not very well written), really I think illuminates a lot of what Lindelof and Scott were going for and where the story may go from here:

SECRETS OF ENGINEERS' ORIGINS AND MOTIVES LIKELY REVEALED

Spoiler

http://www.prometheus-movie.com/community/forums/topic/7436

This was taken from a comment I saw on another site, and I did a little research and everything seems to check out! :

To give some historical/mythological background that may shed some light, Ridley stated the SJ culture was based on Persian Myths. This would be Sumerian/Akkadian/Hindu. This is all taken from the Atra Hasis.

Creators - "G"ods- Annunaki - Dragon Humanoids (Naga, Dragon Kings,)

Helpers - "g"ods - Igigi - Engineers. (Android like living beings....BIOmechanical humanoid. Key features- Pale skin and large black eyes. Also known as watchers, Grigori, and Archons) (in many summerian texts they are actually referred to as "Pilots". Pretty much the Annunaki Air Force.)

When the Annunaki began terraforming the earth, they had the Igigi do the work for them. After a few thousand years the Igigi revolted and went on strike. The Annunaki then decided to create humans to do the work for them.

They sacrificed one of the rebel Igigi named Geshtu to use his blood and dna to make human beings, by mixing it with elements native to the earth.

(In the movie, this can be explained by the the different oval spaceship at the beginning representing the spaceship of the Annunaki)

(It can also be explained by the concept art that leaked from the official book this week)

(According to wikipedia it also says this about the Igigi: "Though sometimes synonymous with the term "Annunaki," in one myth the Igigi were the younger gods who were servants of the Annunaki, until they rebelled and were replaced by the creation of humans." This is reflectled exactly in the concept art below!)

Even though the humans were created and did the work, 1/3 of the Igigi still werent satisfied and sought revenge for Geshtu, so they rebelled again against the Annunaki Lords and began breeding/mixing with the human females creating Nephelim. This is what sparked the Prime Lord Enlil to flood the earth. Some humans were saved by Enki, the Lord responsible for the sacrifice of Geshtu and the creation of humans. Enlil and the rest of the annunaki decide to return home and let the humans develop on their own. Enki and his family stay behind. The Igigi are forced to leave earth as well. The remaining rebel Igigi are imprisoned on a planet on the way back to the homeworld and it is said as punishment and as a mark they are altered into a demonic appearance, no longer retaining the Angelic appearance.

Enki and his crew are probably the ones leaving the maps for humans to find, along with the ones helping humans advance throughout time.

The sacrfice engineer is Geshtu

The lone engineer is most likely Marduk or a servant/worshipper of Marduk.

The xeno is Mushussu, a creature Marduk fashioned and used as his pet.

The "Engineers" we see are trying to destroy Earth are of the Igigi rebels who view earth as their own. They have always despised humans because the Annunaki saw us as more in their likeness than them. IT's possible that the Igigi have long since destroyed or taken over the annunaki and the homeworld, and Earth was like going to claim the prize or spoils.

They mustve used to the Xeno's to win this war and through its perfection it has began to destroy and infect the Igigi who manufacture and transport it, creating more Mushussu.

the xeno in Alien is most likely an older pilot igigi birthed Mushussu egg crossed with human or a future Annunaki birthed one which would explain the size difference in hosts.

It is mentioned in several lesser stories that Marduk created the Mushussu out of using the essence of the Gods' (Annunaki) he killed as a symbol of his conquering and being able to control them... ie the mural.

The only thing i disagree with is I think the xenomorphs (and all the potential stuff that came from that black gooey stuff) is what the engineers/"Igilis" were going to flood the world with and hence what the Annuaki or "gods" punished them with in a "prison." The planet in Prometheus is that prison, even though it perhaps was not before the two aliens turned on each other. The storyboards/concept art of the original opening really confirms this. At least it does for me.

Bump because it got buried in the last page.

 

[Balthus Dire]

You didn't pay attention if you didn't see them acknowledge that they knew Shaw removed it. Blank and David both acknowledge it.

Again...what did you want too see them do about it? How can you not see that blank has literally little life to live, that was also mentioned, and that he wanted to meet his maker ASAP. If you don't think that trumps their previous experiments or that one dead embryo when a ship full of squid juice is on board would make them focus on that instead of a dead squid baby then you will never change your mind.

I wouldn't be shocked if there is a deleted scene with a line mentioning it but of course that has to be in the movie for it not to be a plot hole for some people...because you can't speculate character motives or actions apparently.

Bro you need to take a chill pill. You didn't write the film, so why do you take it so personally that people have problems with it? Your snarky attitude is just unnecessary.

If it had only been David who knew about the embryo, I wouldn't care so much that he barely acknowledges it afterwards. It seems like something his character would do, because he barely has a motive for anything, apparently. But the fact that other crew members new about it and still didn't bother to say anything or do anything about it is lazy.

And I'm sorry if it makes you angry, but the embryo really is a plot device. It exists solely to defeat the Jockey in the final scene. It's no different than the one scientist acting all cuddly-wuddly to the snake alien thing for the sole purpose of a "cool" death scene and to (somehow) infect the other faceless (literally and metaphorically) crew member.

 

[CConn]

I like an intelligent movie as much as the next guy, but sometimes a film isn't as smart as it thinks it is, and Prometheus is one of those films. It's flawed, beautifully shot but it's extremely flawed, people are understanding what the film was trying to say but the problem was the execution, there are some glaring plot holes in the film, genuine WTF moments which negates the themes it was trying to convey, themes which are never really delved into at any great length and which are brushed aside for some pretty standard horror cliches.

So, let's see...

Are we supposed to listen to guys like DA who say it is an extremely intelligent film and talk about things like the Igilis and Annuaki - and other such concepts that very few people of normal intelligence and education would even know about it...

Or should we listen to you, who can do nothing more than muster "It's dumb. Seriously. You gotta believe me. It's dumb"?

That's a real tough call to make.

 

[CConn]

Bro you need to take a chill pill. You didn't write the film, so why do you take it so personally that people have problems with it? Your snarky attitude is just unnecessary.

Your last post was pretty snarky too.

Or should I say s-n-a-r-k-y.

 

[Balthus Dire]

Your last post was pretty snarky too.

Or should I say s-n-a-r-k-y.

Oop, here comes CConn with another "witty" post! How charming!

^ Snark.

My earlier snark was directed at the laziness of the script, not towards another poster. There's a difference.

 

[CConn]

Oop, here comes CConn with another "witty" post! How charming!

^ Snark.

My earlier snark was directed at the laziness of the script, not towards another poster. There's a difference.

Wait.

You're saying he hurt your feelings?

 

[Schlosser85]

Your condescension doesn't make you look more intelligent than anyone else, CConn.

It makes you look ignorant.

 

[Figs]

I'm wondering if the same people who had problems with the lack of characterization in Prometheus also had the same problem with it in the "classic" Alien.

 

[Kane52630]

Your last post was pretty snarky too.

Or should I say s-n-a-r-k-y.

Oop, here comes CConn with another "witty" post! How charming!

^ Snark.

My earlier snark was directed at the laziness of the script, not towards another poster. There's a difference.

Wait.

You're saying he hurt your feelings?

Your condescension doesn't make you look more intelligent than anyone else, CConn.

It makes you look ignorant.

 

[CConn]

Your condescension doesn't make you look more intelligent than anyone else, CConn.

It makes you look ignorant.

That's it, we're having a conversation. Now.

 

[Schlosser85]

Um....sure? Here?

 

[CConn]

In the bedroom.

 

[Balthus Dire]

I'm wondering if the same people who had problems with the lack of characterization in Prometheus also had the same problem with it in the "classic" Alien.

I would argue that the characters in Alien were more fleshed out and had way more personality than the majority of the Prometheus characters. A backstory isn't necessarily what gives a character depth; it's how they act, how they react, their motivations or lack of motivations, how they talk, etc.

IMO Alien's characters were great in that regard. They were all unique in respect to one another, they all had their own motives and reasons for their actions, and most of all they were all believable. They weren't just faceless throwaway characters.

While David is obviously an interesting character, Prometheus lacks the characterization of the cast in Alien: they are mostly nameless throwaways, and even when they aren't, the majority of the characters just stand around and brood for the majority of the film instead of doing anything worthwhile or even contributing to the story.

My 2 cents on that ordeal, anyway.

 

[TheOnlyOmega]

This is getting good.

 

[Schlosser85]

In the bedroom.

Anger sex is the best sex.

 

[DBryan]

Wait, so now it's too "on the nose?" I thought the common criticism was that it was too vague?

Certain things are too on the nose.

The christian symbolism and statements referring to christianity, etc. The "I can't have kids" line, in screen time minutes before she gets impregnated.

 

[DBryan]

How many times to people just outright say something to the e
effect of "I'm looking for the big questions!"

Followed by several individuals asking Shaw "Have you lost your faith yet?"


Imagine if Deckard walked around for the entirety of Blade Runner just repeating " What does it mean to be human?" to everyone he came across.

Exactly.

 

[Figs]

I would argue that the characters in Alien were more fleshed out and had way more personality than the majority of the Prometheus characters. A backstory isn't necessarily what gives a character depth; it's how they act, how they react, their motivations or lack of motivations, how they talk, etc.

IMO Alien's characters were great in that regard. They were all unique in respect to one another, they all had their own motives and reasons for their actions, and most of all they were all believable. They weren't just faceless throwaway characters.

While David is obviously an interesting character, Prometheus lacks the characterization of the cast in Alien: they are mostly nameless throwaways, and even when they aren't, the majority of the characters just stand around and brood for the majority of the film instead of doing anything worthwhile or even contributing to the story.

My 2 cents on that ordeal, anyway.

They were fleshed out to an extent but still not all that deep. They each had their own job to do on the ship and when **** hit the fan they had to figure things out but that was about it.

Then you take Aliens which is also considered a classic by a lot of people and see how many characters in that were just "cannon fodder", yet I rarely hear people complain about it.

My problem with that complaint in Prometheus is that you should only have so many main characters to focus on in any movie and they're not going to send out only 2-4 people on a scientific expedition.

Don't get me wrong there were some stupid choices made like the scientist who wanted to play with the evolved worm, but I don't let things like that completely ruin an entire movie for me. It's no different to me then when one of the characters in Alien(can't remember which one)wanders off by themselves when they were previously paired up with someone. It's a typical horror cliche but no one complains about that in the "classic" film Alien.

 

[Kane52630]

New official stills...spoilers!

Spoiler

http://www.prometheus-movie.com/gallery/view/img/476

 

[DBryan]

I was okay with him being interested in it, but I agree this his basically idiotic excitement about it was over the top. Very horror-cliche. The man's a scientist, he would have exercised a little more caution. I can understand him wanting to examine the new life form, but getting as close as he did and trying to touch it seemed foolish. I would have liked it better had he been a little more cautious, only to still get killed. That makes it more frightening.

That there are people defending this part of the film (well there is a reason why I have the guy defending this part of the film blocked) is baffling.

They were SCARED OUT OF THEIR MINDS the last time we had seen them on screen, actively trying to avoid life signs, and then they are all super cool about a SNAKE ALIEN on an ALIEN PLANET.

It's completely illogical and its a scene that certainly detracts from the suspense.