Prometheus - Part 9

[Gianakin_]

Yeah, he did!

 

[Mandalore464]

Edit : Deleted

 

[DarthSkywalker]

*Sigh* Okay, please could you indicate the book, comic, videogame, radio play, stage play etc from which Prometheus is adapted; or the pre existing movie of which it is a remake? It certainly isn't an adaptation of ATMOM because, as I have pointed out repeatedly, the two stories are barely alike (particularly if you have actually read ATMOM rather than just glanced at its wiki page).

Yes, everyone knows that Prometheus basically "quotes" the quarantine & storm scenes from the Alien movies, and everyone knows that Prometheus is set in the "same universe". But the script is an "original" work in that it isn't straightforwardly adapting something else. Hence, (from IMDB)

Prometheus

Writing credits

Jon Spaihts Damon Lindelof


vs Avengers

Writing credits

Joss Whedon (screenplay)

Zak Penn (story) and Joss Whedon (story)

Stan Lee (comic book) & Jack Kirby (comic book)


vs Twilight: Breaking Dawn Pt I

Writing credits

Melissa Rosenberg (screenplay)

Stephenie Meyer (novel "Breaking Dawn")


vs King Kong (2005)

Writing credits

(WGA)Fran Walsh (screenplay) & Philippa Boyens (screenplay) & Peter Jackson (screenplay)

Merian C. Cooper (based on a story by) and Edgar Wallace (based on a story by)


Do you see? Even though you may think that Prometheus' script is crap, and you make the valid point that it lifts scenes from other movies, it still has the status of an original script. This does indeed make it "unusual" in the context of the dross that Hollywood pumps out nowadays.

As for the surgical pod- yes, it was clearly meant for Weyland. There is some shoddy writing in Prometheus, but a lot of the supposed "ZOMG" plot holes tend to be identified by people with short attention spans who missed a lot of content.

[EDIT] I am not saying that the poster who originally raised the point is one of these people, this is one of those points that does seem strange until you reflect on it. If you do so, however, you have to consider that the screenplay really doesn't call for the machine that is supposedly used by Vickers to be "male only"; that is clearly a deliberate hint in the script, rather than a mistake. Plot holes occur by omission or by negligence, not by somebody needlessly adding a line of script that makes no sense in context.

I still think it is likely that Vickers was a robot, or partly so. There are a lot of clues to it, not least how Weyland says that David is the closest thing he has to a son, and the manner in which Vickers acts completely out of character to have sex with Janek- possibly to throw him off the trail.

You think I don't know it is credited as an original screenplay? Of course it is. Just like Star Wars, just like Avatar, just like A Bug's Life. That doesn't change the reality of them largely being based on other works.

Avatar is Pocahontas with the Aliens marines. Star Wars is Dune by way of Kurosawa. A Bug's Life is Seven Samurai.

If you wanted me to tell you what I think Prometheus is, the more I think about it, the more it seems to be a lukewarm Alien, with a lot of bad Blade Runner philosophy around it. As if someone sat down the whole night after watching Alien and BR back to back, wrote what questions the films inspired in them and then they made it a film without refining it.

Once David wakes everyone up in falls into the Alien film structure, with the one big exception is they decide to have these big breaks for quasi-BR talk every time they end up back on the ship not sure what to do. In a lot of ways the ship Prometheus served the purpose of the Avengers helicarrier. A place where the film stalled as the plot gears waited to start going again.

The more I think about it, the more it reminds me of Blade Runner. It ask many of the same questions. Blade Runner is all about the concept of creation and the morality surrounding it and life in general. David is a perfect example of the "More Human then human" idea. Prometheus adds the blunt instrument of mankind's creators, putting a face on God which hovers over BR (God (Engineers), Man, Replicant (David)), but does nothing with them. They are there, they are not happy, and they want to eliminate their creations and in many ways it is no different then how mankind handles the replicants. Except of for that, there is actual exploration of the reasoning and appalling way it is being handled in BR.

For all intent and purpose in Prometheus, the Engineers are the boogeyman, who only real purpose in the film is to chase or hero. They aren't used or explored outside of that, even when the first 10 minutes proposed otherwise.

Part of me jokingly wonders why Weyland didn't walk up to the Engineer and said, "I want more life, father." t:

It is maddenly that Prometheus lacks the elegance or thoughtfulness of a Blade Runner or 2001 in this regard, when so clearly influenced by them.

 

[regwec]

You think I don't know it is credited as an original screenplay? Of course it is.

Right, that's all I wanted to clear up.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Right, that's all I wanted to clear up.

What was so hard to understand about my other post in this regard?

 

[regwec]

I didn't read it that closely, to be honest, and it looked like a rehearsal of your usual gripes about the movie.

The point I was seeking to make from the outset was that this was a movie based on an original script, which made it a rare sliver of gold in Hollywood's mire of sewage. You still appeared to be disputing that, but I am glad that you agree with me.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I didn't read it that closely, to be honest, and it looked like a rehearsal of your usual gripes about the movie.

The point I was seeking to make from the outset was that this was a movie based on an original script, which made it a rare sliver of gold in Hollywood's mire of sewage. You still appeared to be disputing that, but I am glad that you agree with me.

Except, there are plenty of films based on "original scripts" being released all the time. Plenty much better then Prometheus.

This week, "Seeking a Friend for the End of the World" and "Brave". They still hand out the best original screenplay Oscar.

 

[regwec]

Yes, there are still some, but far too much of the funding goes to teen franchise filth.

I'm not blaming studios for that- they just want movies that are dumb enough for kids to go and see them twenty times and buy the merchandise. If anything, it's a sign of audiences dumbing down. But that's why it's nice to have something interesting and original like 'Promtheus' to enjoy.

Edit: To be clear, it is partly a budget/coverage thing. Isn't the statistic that, of the top 25 grossing movies of 2000-10, 23 were not original screenplays? I don't know, but we're certainly living in an era of comicbook/remake saturation.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Yes, there are still some, but far too much of the funding goes to teen franchise filth.

I'm not blaming studios for that- they just want movies that are dumb enough for kids to go and see them twenty times and buy the merchandise. If anything, it's a sign of audiences dumbing down. But that's why it's nice to have something interesting and original like 'Promtheus' to enjoy.

You are making up a false reality. We live in a world where Nolan made a 160 million dollar mindbender in "Inception", that earned 825 million worldwide.

Even if everyone found "Prometheus" interesting, original and enjoyable, how is it a black mark against other films?

You don't like the Avengers or Harry Potter, fine. That doesn't suddenly make the films or the audience dumb. I dislike Twilight vehemently. That doesn't make its fans dumb. Most wouldn't tell you it is great cinema, but that they are simply enjoying the films and stories they enjoy. If you can find originality, interest and enjoyment in Prometheus, I sure as hell can find that in Harry Potter.

You could theoretically spin that around and ask you why you like "Prometheus" with all its poor structure, stock characters and bad writing. Using your logic does that not make it dumb?

 

[regwec]

I don't think I need to add "in my opinion" to any of my previous posts.

"inception" is one of a few films which are exceptions that prove the rule, which is why many people hoped a movie like "Prometheus" could be similarly successful. Alas, it wasn't to be.

 

[Lord]

regwec, i like that you're defending Prometheus so much, but every time i go to this thread i only see you being buried more and more

 

[DarthSkywalker]

I don't think I need to add "in my opinion" to any of my previous posts.

"inception" is one of a few films which are exceptions that prove the rule, which is why many people hoped a movie like "Prometheus" could be similarly successful. Alas, it wasn't to be.

Alas, perhaps Scott should have made a film as good as "Inception"?

Here is the problem with your whole argument. This film had hype, it had backing, it had an audience. It had a very good opening week. Why did it drop off so badly? Is it perhaps bad word of mouth based on it not being as good as some think?

 

[regwec]

regwec, i like that you're defending Prometheus so much, but every time i go to this thread i only see you being buried more and more

Heh. I don't even think it's a great film; just a more interesting one than most.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Heh. I don't even think it's a great film; just a more interesting one than most.

I actually like the film. It just feels too much like a failed experiment that some are putting on a pedestal and then wondering why it isn't all that it was suppose to be to everyone else.

 

[regwec]

Alas, perhaps Scott should have made a film as good as "Inception"?

Or one with a big shoot 'em up in the Arctic? Inception is great, but maybe it also manages to retain a great deal to appeal to the dumbos? It's quite a feat by Nolan, and it's what makes him Hollywood's golden boy.

Here is the problem with your whole argument. This film had hype, it had backing, it had an audience. It had a very good opening week. Why did it drop off so badly? Is it perhaps bad word of mouth based on it not being as good as some think?

I don't really know what you think my "whole argument" is. I don't think Prometheus is a great film. I do think it is interesting. The "argument" we have been having is about whether it status as a high budget movie based on an original script makes it unusual. I think it does, and I would like to see more of that.

 

[BuddhaWasABat]

All I can say is the more I look back on the film the more it's flaws bother me. I was hyped to all hell for Prometheus and when the mixed reviews came out I did everything I could to write off all criticism as bs. Than I saw it, realized it was flawed but I still gave it an 8 because I enjoyed the experience even if let down. It also did make good conversation, but honestly only for the first 2 or 3 days after seeing it. It's been about 2 weeks now and Ive forgotten about it. The interesting discussion points don't last long. I really think I went a little overboard with giving it an 8. The more I look back the more clear the flaws of Prometheus are. It is a shame. IMO it's at best a slightly better than average popcorn flick.

All I can do now is hope the Directors Cut can do it's best to fix up the flaws, as it did with KOH.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Or one with a big shoot 'em up in the Arctic? Inception is great, but maybe it also manages to retain a great deal to appeal to the dumbos? It's quite a feat by Nolan, and it's what makes him Hollywood's golden boy.

Is there a reason you need to use such words to describe people who enjoy going to the movies?

I don't really know what you think my "whole argument" is. I don't think Prometheus is a great film. I do think it is interesting. The "argument" we have been having is about whether it status as a high budget movie based on an original script makes it unusual. I think it does, and I would like to see more of that.

The question is where did the hopes for Prometheus to perform in a similar manner come from. It was the idea that it was going to be a film so good that people would "need" to see it. Once it proved not to be, the argument over it having an high budget or it being an original script is irrelevant.

The film needs to be good enough to attract the audience first and foremost.

Also this film was made to clearly appeal to a wider audience.

All I can say is the more I look back on the film the more it's flaws bother me. I was hyped to all hell for Prometheus and when the mixed reviews came out I did everything I could to write off all criticism as bs. Than I saw it, realized it was flawed but I still gave it an 8 because I enjoyed the experience even if let down. It also did make good conversation, but honestly only for the first 2 or 3 days after seeing it. It's been about 2 weeks now and Ive forgotten about it. The interesting discussion points don't last long. I really think I went a little overboard with giving it an 8. The more I look back the more clear the flaws of Prometheus are. It is a shame. IMO it's at best a slightly better than average popcorn flick.

All I can do now is hope the Directors Cut can do it's best to fix up the flaws, as it did with KOH.

It is because as I said many times. There is only the questions. Not enough exploration of them to even form an argument on the questions.

Most of Prometheus appeal is guessing the exact intentions of the Engineers, and even that is mostly a guessing game at this point. That or bluntly stated in the film.

 

[dark_b]

i think we sould talk about the deleted long conversation between the engineer and David.

 

[regwec]

Is there a reason you need to use such words to describe people who enjoy going to the movies?

It's a useful shorthand for lowest-common denominator audiences; the teenagers for whom most big budget movies are made and dumbed down. I think Prometheus is another victim of that process, as you rightly point out.

It's a shame, really, that the (relative) failure of this movie will probably prevent producers going anywhere near a "concept" script for the foreseeable future.

"Too Fast, Too Avengers vs Twilight Reboot III" here we come!

 

[BuddhaWasABat]

I keep feeling like even the Directors Cut can't fix a few of the stupid moments of this film, such as the dude who becomes a zombie for no reason other than Lindelof needed a way to kill of several of the crew really quickly and couldn't think of a more logical way than that. The Directors Cut can help fill in many gaps, which can greatly improve the film by answering questions etc. and adding some more suspenseful moments. It can't fix what I said before, and it can't fix some of the bad and cliched dialogue such as "I choose to believe." Worst answer to a big question ever.

I hope for the best, though, and I also hope that The Counselor turns out much better than Prometheus did. Ridley is one of my all time favorite Directors, like top 5. He made Blade Runner, my favorite movie ever, and he also made Alien, Gladiator, KOH, Matchstick Men, and American Gangster. He has a bad track record overall when it comes to making good films consistently, but it seems that every once in a great while he has a comeback and makes a great film again. We thought it would be Prometheus, but it wasn't. Something will come eventually, though. Interested to see Ridley work with Cormac Mccarthy.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

It's a useful shorthand for lowest-common denominator audiences; the teenagers for whom most big budget movies are made and dumbed down. I think Prometheus is another victim of that process, as you rightly point out.

It's a shame, really, that the (relative) failure of this movie will probably prevent producers going anywhere near a "concept" script for the foreseeable future.

"Too Fast, Too Avengers vs Twilight Reboot III" here we come!

It is an insult and uncalled for.

 

[Doctor Jones]

So, basically, the Engineers are the worst pilots in the galaxy?

No, but a dead one is. It's not that hard to understand. The jockey escaped from the planet, the facehugger killed the pilot, so the ship with the dead pilot crashed on another planet, in this case LV-426.

 

[Doctor Jones]

I keep feeling like even the Directors Cut can't fix a few of the stupid moments of this film, such as the dude who becomes a zombie for no reason other than Lindelof needed a way to kill of several of the crew really quickly and couldn't think of a more logical way than that. The Directors Cut can help fill in many gaps, which can greatly improve the film by answering questions etc. and adding some more suspenseful moments. It can't fix what I said before, and it can't fix some of the bad and cliched dialogue such as "I choose to believe." Worst answer to a big question ever.

I hope for the best, though, and I also hope that The Counselor turns out much better than Prometheus did. Ridley is one of my all time favorite Directors, like top 5. He made Blade Runner, my favorite movie ever, and he also made Alien, Gladiator, KOH, Matchstick Men, and American Gangster. He has a bad track record overall when it comes to making good films consistently, but it seems that every once in a great while he has a comeback and makes a great film again. We thought it would be Prometheus, but it wasn't. Something will come eventually, though. Interested to see Ridley work with Cormac Mccarthy.

Well what else did you expect? Like real life, we can never truly know. It didn't go out of its way to answer the question, it didn't try to know all of the answers. By the end, like us, we're still searching. It will always be this search. To give a definitive answer would take the fun out of all of this discussion.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

The line isn't the problem. The problem was the line wasn't earned and thus falls flat.

 

[The Predalien]

I can't believe so many people consider this to be a plot hole.

The machine was obviously on board for the 90+ years old Weyland, and not his perfectly healthy, 30 something daughter.

Just because a character introduces something as his or hers, it doesn't have to be taken for granted. Or are today's audiences so brainwashed by easy, switch-your-brains-off actioneers that they expect characters to say the truth at all times so they don't have to think about it while stuffing their faces on pop-corn?

The fact that it's only programed for a man is just another plot device to make you go "wait... What???" and tell you that there's something fishy going on on board. Of course, in real life, such high end medical equipment would be able to operate on both sexes, but it's a movie, and it uses plot devices such as this to unravel its story to the audience in a less straightforward way.

Yeah, I sort of realised it must have been for Weyland, but didn`t mention that when I posted! I was more getting at the fact that why it couldn`t deal with both sexes, the `male only` plot device was to really indicate it must be for Weyland.
I guess I didn`t mean to class that as a plot hole either, because it obviously isn`t , I was just been too picky about the fact it was so advanced yet couldn`t deal with both male and female operations in one unit.

I`m not always the sharpest when it comes to getting subtleties in plots, or deeper connotations to scenes - thats why I come here! There are alot of clever and intelligent posters on these boards ( especially this thread ) , and alot of the time I find myself agreeing with their thoughts about stuff, when I could never be that clever to express it! If you get what I mean lol!

Anyway, I`ve seen the word `Paradise` floating around here and there , that`s obviously the proposed title for the sequel. How do you think they`ll approach the promotion of that to get the general audience to realise its a sequel to `Prometheus`? Don`t suppose they`ll be so blatant as to call it `Prometheus II: Paradise`.

Ade