Quesada killed Marvel.

[fifthfiend]

I didn't like the marriage. I think it limits storytelling.

As any student of the arts will tell you, the abysmal failure of marriage-centric storytelling from MacBeth to I Love Lucy amply demonstrates the inherent and inescapable limitations of the institution as a dramatic device.

 

[Gilpesh]

As any student of the arts will tell you, the abysmal failure of marriage-centric storytelling from MacBeth to I Love Lucy amply demonstrates the inherent and inescapable limitations of the institution as a dramatic device.

I think what everyone means by 'limits storytelling' is they want Spidey porn.

 

[iloveclones]

As any student of the arts will tell you, the abysmal failure of marriage-centric storytelling from MacBeth to I Love Lucy amply demonstrates the inherent and inescapable limitations of the institution as a dramatic device.

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but man do you do it with style!

 

[PhotoJones]

I got the impression that Tony wasnt REAL concerned with arresting Peter, or any of the New Avengers for that matter.

I mean, Tony KNEW they were all hiding out at Strange's Sanctum...he could have razed it to the ground from high above in the helicarrier if he really wanted too....

Tony seemed pretty intent on arresting the New Avengers from what I read. Capekillers were outside Cage's house literally waiting for midnight, MJ was followed to a cafe and threatened with arrest herself before Peter swung in to save her (God, that was a great issue. Now THAT is how to make the marriage exciting.), Captain America and the Falcon were cornered by Pym and barely escaped and the New Avengers were fed a line of horse**** about Cap's dead body in order for them to come in.

He might not be too concerned with arresting them now, after WWH and the impending Skrull invasion, but he was, once upon a time.

 

[Kirk Langstrom]

Tony seemed pretty intent on arresting the New Avengers from what I read. Capekillers were outside Cage's house literally waiting for midnight, MJ was followed to a cafe and threatened with arrest herself before Peter swung in to save her (God, that was a great issue. Now THAT is how to make the marriage exciting.), Captain America and the Falcon were cornered by Pym and barely escaped and the New Avengers were fed a line of horse**** about Cap's dead body in order for them to come in.

He might not be too concerned with arresting them now, after WWH and the impending Skrull invasion, but he was, once upon a time.

Yeah, but; The Cage thing was virtually the first act of the initiative, one minute after it became law. I think Tony was just trying to get off to a "good start" so to speak...

I dont remember the MJ thing being a specific order from Tony...

Pym was acting on his own. He later cornered Wolverine and Stark ordered Pym to let Logan go...

As you said; "early on", butI think towards the end there, specifically after Cap's murder, Stark became very un-sure and thus dis-interested on how to deal with his former allies.

 

[PhotoJones]

I agree with that. Over time, he's seemed a lot less interested in bringing the outlaws in. From the looks of it in the MA #7 preview, I doubt it's a priority at all for him.

 

[fifthfiend]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic, but man do you do it with style!

Man, nothing takes the thrill out of being sarcastic at someone like having them compliment you on it.

 

[Anubis]

I gotta admit. That was pretty cool. You totally blew his argument outta the water and there was nothing the man could do but congratulate you on it.

 

[Arkady Rossovich]

I think Quesada really is sending Marvel overboard.I don't buy much Marvel comics anymore,just paperbacks of nothing new.The only comic i am even thinking of buying is Iron Fist.Do writers have no ideas,they have to erase classic things to tell a rehashed modern version of things?

 

[iloveclones]

Man, nothing takes the thrill out of being sarcastic at someone like having them compliment you on it.

Seriously though, I know you can quote me all kinds of examples of marriages in fiction that work. Just as I can list dozens of action heroes that are (purposefully) single. You want to say MacBeth, I'll counter with Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, and Captain Picard. You want to say Lucy, I'll counter with Indiana Jones, John McClane(sort-of), and Ralph Hinckley. Hardly blown out of the water. Just giving credit when it's due.

 

[YJ1]

As long as he's making sales for Marvel Comics, he keeps his job.

That's the bottom line. Marvel sales have been stellar.

A lot of stuff has never been better... Daredevil, Captain America, Hulk, Thunderbolts, all the Annihilation Cosmic Stuff, etc. Even the X-Men universe seems to be back on track.

I don't think Quesada is a hack but this Spider-Man OMD wipe is THE worst thing I've ever seen Marvel try and pull off. It's awful on every level.

Still, Marvel on a bad day beats 99% of what DC puts out on a good day.

 

[Damiean Dark]

Yep DC has existed on the sales of batman and to a lesser extent superman for the last 20 years barring the Justice league DC has absolutly no characters of interest for me they are badly designed and seem to be stuck in Weird 1950s time bubble dressed up to look modern.

 

[Harlekin]

Yep DC has existed on the sales of batman and to a lesser extent superman for the last 20 years barring the Justice league DC has absolutly no characters of interest for me they are badly designed and seem to be stuck in Weird 1950s time bubble dressed up to look modern.

Yeah... or not.

 

[Spider-Bat]

lol...alot of valid points though...nowadays Marvel just sucks across the board...

Agreed.

I understand the writers make up these crappy stories too but he allows them.

 

[Darthphere]

Agreed.

I understand the writers make up these crappy stories too but he allows them.

So you read no Marvel titles now?

 

[iloveclones]

So, in making this “marriage in fiction” (note: I said in fiction, NOT in real life) argument, I found that I was cherry picking my data (frankly, so were you fifth fiend). So, I looked up AFIs top action (thriller) films of all time. I didn’t see a lot of them so I decided to go with something a little less “quality”, but all about the indisputable numbers. Below are the top (USA) moneymaking films. You can argue whether they’re crap or not, but people did pay to see them. I’ve bolded ones that I think are either about a marriage, plays an integral part, or just plain had the major players married off. The first movie that I see that I can honestly say that marriage is a part of the story, maybe even integral is The Incredibles, all the way down at #37. Some of them, I've given a big fat benefit of the doubt, just to be fair. And look carefully, in some of them, the spouses don't fare too well, or are completely marginalized. My conclusion is the same: marriage is an impedement to storytelling. Not an impossible one, which some of you are implying that I'm saying. But it is one, and one I (as a fan) am willing to discard for this character (This character; I would not make the same case for Reed and Sue)

If Marvel writers are “lazy”, I would say most of Hollywood is also (Well, actually that’s probably true.) I would challenge any of you to examine this in the same way for literature. I think you’ll find the same phenomenon (if you don’t cherry-pick like me and fifth did…..don’t be upset fifth, you know you did. You included MacBeth, but conveniently left out two of his greatest…Romeo and Juliet and Hamlet )


Star Wars (1977)
Shrek 2 (2004)
E.T.: The Extra-Terrestrial (1982)
Star Wars: Episode I - The Phantom Menace (1999)
Pirates of the Caribbean: Dead Man's Chest (2006)
Spider-Man (2002)
Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith (2005)
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (2003)
Spider-Man 2 (2004)
The Passion of the Christ (2004)
Jurassic Park (1993)
The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002)
Finding Nemo (2003)
Spider-Man 3 (2007)
Forrest Gump (1994)
The Lion King (1994)
Shrek the Third (2007)
Transformers (2007)
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone (2001)
The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001)
Star Wars: Episode II - Attack of the Clones (2002)
Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End (2007)
Star Wars: Episode VI - Return of the Jedi (1983)
Independence Day (1996)
Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl (2003)
The Sixth Sense (1999)
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (2007)
The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe (2005)
Star Wars: Episode V - The Empire Strikes Back (1980)
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (2005)
Home Alone (1990)
The Matrix Reloaded (2003)
Meet the Fockers (2004)
Shrek (2001)
Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets (2002)
The Incredibles (2004)
How the Grinch Stole Christmas (2000)
Jaws (1975)
Monsters, Inc. (2001)
Batman (1989)
Night at the Museum (2006)
Men in Black (1997)
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban (2004)
Toy Story 2 (1999)
Cars (2006)
Bruce Almighty (2003)
Raiders of the Lost Ark (1981)
Twister (1996)
My Big Fat Greek Wedding (2002)
Ghost Busters (1984)
Beverly Hills Cop (1984)
X-Men: The Last Stand (2006)
War of the Worlds (2005)
Cast Away (2000)
The Lost World: Jurassic Park (1997)
Signs (2002)
The Bourne Ultimatum (2007)
Rush Hour 2 (2001)
Mrs. Doubtfire (1993)
King Kong (2005)
Ghost (1990)
The Da Vinci Code (2006)
Aladdin (1992)
Saving Private Ryan (1998)
Mission: Impossible II (2000)
X2 (2003)
Austin Powers in Goldmember (2002)
I Am Legend (2007)
Back to the Future (1985)
300 (2006)
Wedding Crashers (2005)
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory (2005)
Ratatouille (2007)
Austin Powers: The Spy Who Shagged Me (1999)
Batman Begins (2005)
Terminator 2: Judgment Day (1991)
The Exorcist (1973)
The Mummy Returns (2001)
Armageddon (1998/I)
Superman Returns (2006)
Gone with the Wind (1939)
Pearl Harbor (2001)
Happy Feet (2006)
Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade (1989)
Ice Age: The Meltdown (2006)
Madagascar (2005)
Toy Story (1995)
Men in Black II (2002)
Gladiator (2000)
The Day After Tomorrow (2004)
Mr. & Mrs. Smith (2005)
Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1937)
Dances with Wolves (1990)
Batman Forever (1995)
The Fugitive (1993)
Ocean's Eleven (2001)
The Simpsons Movie (2007)
What Women Want (2000)
The Perfect Storm (2000)

 

[Doc Destruction]

Yep DC has existed on the sales of batman and to a lesser extent superman for the last 20 years barring the Justice league DC has absolutly no characters of interest for me they are badly designed and seem to be stuck in Weird 1950s time bubble dressed up to look modern.

Wow, you haven't read any DC in a long time, I see.

 

[Aristotle]

Yep DC has existed on the sales of batman and to a lesser extent superman for the last 20 years barring the Justice league DC has absolutly no characters of interest for me they are badly designed and seem to be stuck in Weird 1950s time bubble dressed up to look modern.

If heroes who still have a conscience and a sense of right and wrong is stuck in a weird 1950s time bubble, then Goddammit, sign me up. If the future of storytelling lies in a postmodern mire of endless self-doubt, second-guessing, and ultimate failure, then I am proudly stuck in the past, sir.

 

[Miss Webb]

I like it when we rationalize something and then we continue to be irrational anyway.

Dig it! Tar/feather party to be held for Joey Q...bring attitude and torches. The stuff's cheap, too. Tar goes for 8 bucks for five gallons. Feathers are cheap if you pluck 'em off pigeons.

There's only one problem with running the "Qster" out. When you replace him, all the muck will have to be cleaned up. Thus, OMD will still irritate the masses. And if those in line behind Q are in lockstep, we've wasted tar and feathers for nuthin'.

 

[Doc Destruction]

If heroes who still have a conscience and a sense of right and wrong is stuck in a weird 1950s time bubble, then Goddammit, sign me up. If the future of storytelling lies in a postmodern mire of endless self-doubt, second-guessing, and ultimate failure, then I am proudly stuck in the past, sir.

Seriously, this is the best description I have seen yet for exactly how I feel.

I read superhero comics to read about superheroes, not whining, petty, bickering losers.

 

[Darthphere]

Superheroes have always whined, have always been petty, have always bickered, and in some cases have been losers, loveable losers, but losers nonetheless.

 

[The Geek Vault]

I've liked most of the stuff Marvel has done recently, Civil War was awesome! Same with Annhilation! World War Hulk was really good. I know a lot of pepole don't like the new Iron Man but I gotta say I really like him, I think it adds depth to the character.

 

[Aristotle]

I've liked most of the stuff Marvel has done recently, Civil War was awesome! Same with Annhilation! World War Hulk was really good. I know a lot of pepole don't like the new Iron Man but I gotta say I really like him, I think it adds depth to the character.

Civil War was awesome? They mischaracterized THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA. World War Hulk was good? Seriously? So the only thing Marvel can do for an event now is a glorified hero-fight? They're finally just admitting that the only thing they were ever good for was ******ed fan-service hero-fights, going all the way back to the Stan Lee days? As for Iron Man, he USED to have depth. Now he's a flat, boring, patently vile and disgusting villain to make Ming the Merciless and Emperor Palpatine look subtle and nuanced.

 

[Aristotle]

Superheroes have always whined, have always been petty, have always bickered, and in some cases have been losers, loveable losers, but losers nonetheless.

Superheroes with personality, I don't mind. Superheroes who are completely mired in nothing but that classic Marvel self-doubt, self-loathing, amoral bull****...that I do not accept or enjoy.

 

[Darthphere]

Superheroes with personality, I don't mind. Superheroes who are completely mired in nothing but that classic Marvel self-doubt, self-loathing, amoral bull****...that I do not accept or enjoy.

But it's classic for a reason. Spider-Man has built an empire on angst. Tony Stark has sold on him being a *****e, don't get me started on the X-Men.