Question for Atheists

[Bill]

Its not his job to babysit us, we all make our own choices and sometimes our choices affect others (ex. wars, shoot outs, etc.). Its our decision on what we do with the outcomes from others.

If he were down here right now guiding us 24/7 and making sure we dont do anything stupid, everybody would be going to heaven. We are a flawed race, free will gives us the option to lead good lives or just the opposite.

The question you ought to be asking yourself is why are we a flawed race.

 

[Mike_D202]

The question you ought to be asking yourself is why are we a flawed race.

lots and lots of inbreeding.

 

[psychocheeseman]

Accepting Christ by faith goes against everything the natural mind wants to do. As fallen human beings, we want to do everything our own way, and just eliminate all the boundaries. Joy and peace are the results of salvation, but sometimes you have to experience severe pain, before you can understand God's love and grace. Personally, now that I've expereinced life without God, I know I never want to turn my back on Him again.

You have a very confused view of human nature, possibly due to your own experiences. If having your belief helps you be a better person i think thats great. But you'll have to accept, as you state, it goes against the "natural mind". The belief is irrational, and based on little or no substantial evidence. It is for taht reason that i was asking how much evidence you'd need to alter your beliefs. Is there anything that could change your mind?

For example, hypothetically, If you had a time machine and were able to go back in time and watch the life of jesus, and he failed to perform miracles would that change your opinion? Or would still keep your belief system?

Conversely for athiests, if you had a time machine and saw jesus (or any other religious deity throughout the history of man) performing Miracles, would that convince you to find faith in that religion?

I think, if i saw real miracles i would be inclined to follow that religion. However, as a rational human being i know that "miracles" usually have a ratioanl explanation not involving the supernatural, so this mild possibility does not in itself affect my beliefs.

It seems funny that most religious people expect an impossibly high standard of proof for scientific claims, and yet offer the weakest forms of proof to support their own.

how much proof of evolution would people need before they would believe it? (or how much proof against it would people need)

 

[Kritish]

Why do religious people feel the need to create all these threads where they drill us about what we do believe in?

 

[Mike_D202]

It seems funny that most religious people expect an impossibly high standard of proof for scientific claims, and yet offer the weakest forms of proof to support their own.

how much proof of evolution would people need before they would believe it? (or how much proof against it would people need)

How about the missing link? Or a half-human half-ape?

Every theory about our race is just that: a theory. Nothing has been proven. We could have landed here in a space ship or meteorite for all we know.

 

[Kritish]

How about the missing link? Or a half-human half-ape?

Every theory about our race is just that: a theory. Nothing has been proven. We could have landed here in a space ship or meteorite for all we know.

There’s no such thing, your understanding of natural selection is what’s at fault. The traditional “missing link” is old/bad science.

 

[Bill]

How about the missing link? Or a half-human half-ape?

Every theory about our race is just that: a theory. Nothing has been proven. We could have landed here in a space ship or meteorite for all we know.

The first two questions demonstrate ignorance of what evolution means. The second paragraph demonstrates ignorance of what theory means.

With the multitude of information out there that defines both terms, there's no excuse for posts like the one above.

 

[Kritish]

The first two questions demonstrate ignorance of what evolution means. The second paragraph demonstrates ignorance of what theory means.

With the multitude of information out there that defines both terms, there's no excuse for posts like the one above.

Thank you.

 

[psychocheeseman]

How about the missing link? Or a half-human half-ape?

Every theory about our race is just that: a theory. Nothing has been proven. We could have landed here in a space ship or meteorite for all we know.

Your comment indicates your total lack of understanding of both the theory of evolution, and meaning of a scientific "theory". The difference between the theory of evolution and your spaceship theory is that evolution does have substantial evidence to suggest that it is the most likely way that we got to be here.

in your terms of a "half human half ape" we do have fossil reccords of "less" evolved humanoids, could you be a little more specific?

cause you seem to think we came from apes...

sorry bill, i started writing before you posted...

 

[Kritish]

It’s pretty scary that there’s so many people who don’t grasp the concept of evolution in the year 2007, that’s America for you.

 

[Bill]

It’s pretty scary that there’s so many people who don’t grasp the concept of evolution in the year 2007, that’s America for you.

It is scary. I have yet to see one person here who both denies that Evolution occurs and understands it. You're watching people argue out of complete ignorance.

What's even worse is that the information is out there.

 

[Bill]

Your comment indicates your total lack of understanding of both the theory of evolution, and meaning of a scientific "theory". The difference between the theory of evolution and your spaceship theory is that evolution does have substantial evidence to suggest that it is the most likely way that we got to be here.

in your terms of a "half human half ape" we do have fossil reccords of "less" evolved humanoids, could you be a little more specific?

cause you seem to think we came from apes...

sorry bill, i started writing before you posted...

Don't worry about it, if we said it 100 times it wouldn't sink in.

 

[psychocheeseman]

Its weird though, accepting it doesn't mean people have to loose faith.

Both the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church accept it as the General theory of how we got here (although they have their God spin on it) But in America its seen as "devil talk".

So weird for a Country with such a Vibrant and highly educated begining.

but i can't talk, it seems that anti evolutionary ideas are getting stronger in Australia as well.

 

[Kritish]

It is scary. I have yet to see one person here who both denies that Evolution occurs and understands it. You're watching people argue out of complete ignorance.

What's even worse is that the information is out there.

I know, there’s no excuse for this what so ever.

Its weird though, accepting it doesn't mean people have to loose faith.

Both the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church accept it as the General theory of how we got here (although they have their God spin on it) But in America its seen as "devil talk".

So weird for a Country with such a Vibrant and highly educated begining.

but i can't talk, it seems that anti evolutionary ideas are getting stronger in Australia as well.

God bless America.

 

[Superhobo]

Aren't we great?

 

[Kritish]

Aren't we great?

Not really...

 

[Superhobo]

...sarcasm not noted, apparently.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

And once again, you quote endless statements regarding the Old Covenant, in which we no longer live. Jesus died to give us a new life through Him. If you stubbornly refuse to accept it, then God will give you the fate we all deserve by default. Do you honestly want that? I don't know anyone that would...

How do I go about deserving stuff for other stuff I never did nor have any control over.
can I get saved by default cuz someone never ****ed in his life like a thousand years ago.
plus, you say that in the old covenant the law called for the killing of the rapist and nothing to the victim because she was innocent.
which I showed you to be lies.
please keep that in mind.


oh, and also this.

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. “For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.”

 

[Moviefan2k4]

No, see, I think you miss my point. Regardless of Old Covenant or New, all of Sparkle's quotations came from the Bible, which, IYHO, is the one true word of God as handed down to the prophets. All these came from the same, belittling God. Basically, when you say Jesus erased the crimes and such like you said, it's like saying god said "Oh, I screwed up. Oh, well. Son!"

No comment on the sarcastic remark, but allow me to address your other concerns. In the days of the Old Covenant, God has very strict Laws set in place, because the Savior (Jesus Christ) had not been sacrificed yet. Due to that, God accepted the periodic sacrifice of animals as a sign of repentance. Later, when Jesus died on the cross, God erased that requirement. Instead, He now requires for us to believe in Him, repent, and accept Christ into our hearts by faith, choosing to follow Him. This is the new standard. Sacrificing the blood of animals was merely a sign of sorrow; it did not cleanse us of sin. When Adam & Eve fell, they were rendered fallen and imperfect. Therefore, God needed the blood of a perfect man to cancel it out. Humanity wasn't capable of that purpose, so He sent His only Son, born of a virgin (and therefore not bound by a spiritual urge to sin, even though He was tempted), to preach this "Good News" and give up his life willingly for us all. Before his trial with Pilate, Jesus cried out to God in the Garden of Gethsemane; he was so afraid, that His tears became blood! Yet, he spoke to God, saying, "If it be possible, let this chalice (cup of suffering) pass from Me; yet I want Your will, not Mine." He took upon himself the eternal punishment for any and all forms of sin at the moment of His death, and then 3 days later, God Himself raised Jesus from the dead, to conquer hell and the grave. Because of that, we now have the freedom to live for God's purpose, through faith and acceptance in Christ.

Also, what are we to make of the story of Job, which is essentially god making a bet with a human life while subjecting said Job to unspeakable tragedies, only to prove a vain point to the devil about his followers.

God knew what Satan was up to, but He also knew the choices that Job would make. He ordered the devil, "On the man himself, do no harm." Job's own wife told him to curse God, but even with all he'd been put through, he refused. In the end, Job was rewarded for his faith, with even more than he'd had originally, and the devil was once again defeated.

And, wait! (and I KNOW I'm reaching here; thus, I'm exaggerating ) Aren't the ten commandments originally part of the Old? Never mind the fact that nowadays (and for the past few hundred years) they're reprinted separately. Originally, weren't they from the Old?

As stated above, God's New Covenant with humanity gives us the freedom to live for Him through Christ; the Ten Commandments still apply, because of you love God with all your heart, you won't give in to sinful ways over and over again. We all fall every once in a while, but God offers forgiveness through faith and repentance - no more sacrifices are required but our pride and selfishness.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

When Adam & Eve fell, they were rendered fallen and imperfect. Therefore, God needed the blood of a perfect man to cancel it out. Humanity wasn't capable of that purpose, so He sent His only Son, born of a virgin (and therefore not bound by a spiritual urge to sin, even though He was tempted), to preach this "Good News" and give up his life willingly for us all.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! "god needed the blood of a perfect man"
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
God Needs stuff to cancel out other stuff that he did!
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAA!!!
it's not like he could've just forgiven us, he needed blood!!!!

hey everyone! GOD NEEDS BLOOD! like Dracula!

"Blah! I come to save your soul! Blah!!!"

One Covenant!
Two Covenants!

Two!
ahahahahah!

 

[S_H_F_4839]

I kind of understand where S_H_F is coming from. I'm not a Christian and I'm not an atheist, but I think a lot of atheists do go around acting very arrogantly and could use more humility in their lives. It's not really just about belief in a God, its their general lifestyle and ways they treat other people. I know a lot of atheists tend to overestimate their good nature and confuse their own ambitions with morality. It is often quite easy for people to get frustrated in the heat of the moment and justify treating others badly and as objects. I think what S_H_F is getting at is there is a concept of morality that is independent of humanity and you have to work at getting it. Just relying on yourself can be dangerous because everyone has dangerous self-observed impulses and self-defense mechanisms to protect themselves from moral judgement.

That is what I was trying to get at, but you phrased it better.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

then you are both idiots.

 

[S_H_F_4839]

Interestingly enough, in the Christian bible, while heaven is mentioned quite often, hell is very sparingly talked about. All you really get is 'damnation' and things of that nature. But, the actual place is never referred to

Ergo, hell is an invention of the church, used for fear.

I know this is going to sound contradictory to all the atheists on the boards, but IMO the reason hell is not gotten into further is because god wants you to come to him out of love not fear.

 

[Mr Sparkle]

then why have hell at all?

 

[Moviefan2k4]

I know this is going to sound contradictory to all the atheists on the boards, but IMO the reason hell is not gotten into further is because god wants you to come to him out of love not fear.

Exactly. He lets people know of the terrible punishments of hell (especially in Revelation), but also says, "I set before you both life and death, blessings and cursings. Choose life."

then why have hell at all?

Because in His holiness and purity, God cannot allow a flawed, fallen race to enter a glorious Paradise. We must be redeemed first, through the blood of Christ, by faith.