racism in hollywood - and how far it has come.

[The Question]

Before I get accused of anything (because I don't know if craig is as trigger happy as certain other mods), I want to point out that my argument basically boils down to "people don't want to see Batman change race because he's so popular," and that there otherwise isn't any real reason why he couldn't be made black or some other race. He's really popular, he's always been white, people are used to seeing him white, and people hate change for change's sake.

Comparing a black Batman to a white Black Panther is absurd, as Black Panther is about as black and African as you can get, and he's one of the few black superheroes whose entire mythos and character would be changed by turning him white.

I will admit that if we were talking about a white Luke Cage, there's no argument I or anyone else could make beyond "he's always been black, and there aren't that many popular black superheroes as it is so it's unfair to take one away from us." You could still potentially tell Cage's story with a white actor without changing anything significant, though. It's about as logical as keeping Batman white, as neither character's backstory is heavily tied to their skin color.

I still think there's a difference between making Batman black and making Cage white, and it's one that you bring up. There are simply so few non-white superheroes that making any POC superheroes white decreases the amount of representation persons of color have in popular media. The same cannot be said for white characters. I think that's a perfectly valid reason to be against changing Luke Cage's race and still be for changing Batman's race.



Also, something that just occurred to me:

The have been three major instances of non-white characters in superhero comics being made white in the adaptation. Ra's Al Ghul (originally mixed Arab/Chines), Bane (originally Latino), and The Mandarin (originally Chinese). In the first two cases, no one really minded at all. In the third case, there was quite a lot of controversy among fans, but people in the wider world didn't care that much. What do ya'll think about that?

 

[Teelie]

It does bring to mind for me the equally controversial but even less defensible changing Superman to any other skin color.

He's an alien and not human. Therefore he can be a color literally no human can be naturally (I've seen people who are orange but I don't consider that natural).

Obviously he can't be too different or his whole cover is blown. A superhero who is purple wouldn't be hard to connect to the only known human that also happens to be purple.

But he can be any other natural skin tone humans are without batting an eye, theoretically. Yet I doubt we'll see anything but a white Superman for the forseeable future.

 

[craigdbfan]

@The Question Bane is a little trickier. Latino isn't a race. Both Lionel Messi and Zoe Saldana are both Latino but clearly they're not the same race.

Bane's mother was Latina but we never know if she's mestiza, mulatta, indigenous, African or of Spanish descent (which would make her white) or another admixture of all of the above and his father was an Englishmen so that one is a bit trickier. Based on how Bane is portrayed in the comics I would venture to guess that his mother's lineage was leaning more towards the Spanish side than any of the others I mentioned.

I agree about the others though.

 

[The Question]

It does bring to mind for me the equally controversial but even less defensible changing Superman to any other skin color.

He's an alien and not human. Therefore he can be a color literally no human can be naturally (I've seen people who are orange but I don't consider that natural).

Obviously he can't be too different or his whole cover is blown. A superhero who is purple wouldn't be hard to connect to the only known human that also happens to be purple.

But he can be any other natural skin tone humans are without batting an eye, theoretically. Yet I doubt we'll see anything but a white Superman for the forseeable future.

It's funny. If he's played by a white guy, no one bats an eyelash that Kryptonians look like white humans. If he's played by a black guy, people will start wondering why there are black guys in space. Our culture really has hard wired us to see white people as the default of life.

Unrelated to the issue of his race, I think Superman adaptations should borrow a page from Milestone Comics' character Icon (who, to tie it back to the subject, was created to be an African American counterpart to Superman), and say that Kryptonains actually don't look much like humans at all and that baby Kal-El's ship altered his appearance to superficially resemble the first intelligent life forms that approached the ship. That has little to do with the race issue and everything to do with the fact that aliens who look exactly like humans kind of bug me.

 

[Doctor Evo]

I already did. The points about old money and keeping the characters racial background in perspective are important to me at least.

Everyone else explained their reasoning far better than you ever cared to do. I don't necessarily agree with any of them but I respect that they at least went on to articulate themselves with some really good explanations instead of just dropping a single sentence.

I'm sensing a little ********* here. Is it because I was able to dismantle your argument without HAVING to defend my own position? Did I make it look too easy? Sorry for that.

 

[The Question]

@The Question Bane is a little trickier. Latino isn't a race. Both Lionel Messi and Zoe Saldana are both Latino but clearly they're not the same race.

Bane's mother was Latina but we never know if she's mestiza, mulatta, indigenous, African or of Spanish descent (which would make her white) or another admixture of all of the above and his father was an Englishmen so that one is a bit trickier. Based on how Bane is portrayed in the comics I would venture to guess that his mother's lineage was leaning more towards the Spanish side than any of the others I mentioned.

I agree about the others though.

This is true, although with his skin tone and the fact that his mother was stuck on the lower rungs of Santa Priscan society I always got the feeling that his mother's side was thoroughly non-white.

In any event, Bane in the comics is almost certainly less white than Tom Hardy.


Anyway, what are folks' opinions on those three examples? On the one hand, it is three fewer characters of color in the movie universes. On the other hand, all three characters in the comics do have some unfortunate stereotypical traits. Ra's Al Ghul is a terrorist with seemingly weird and exotic religious practices, Bane is a working class gangster who's tied to drugs and wears a Luchador mask, and The Mandarin is a worse Yellow Peril figure than Fu Manhcu. In that sense, was making the characters white being more racially sensitive? I'm not sure. And what did ya'll think of people's reactions to those changes?

 

[Manic]

The Mandarin was always going to make little to no sense. The name "the Mandarin" is tied to Imperial China, and even the comic book character calling himself that makes less and less sense the further we get from that era in China's history. There haven't been any mandarins since the early 20th century, and our beloved villain was intended to be the last man claiming a title that's rendered meaningless in modern Communist China. They could've still feasibly made a Chinese Mandarin work if they had gone with him taking the title from his people's ancestry, but it still would've been a change in the character.

Casting an English Jewish Indian and doing what they did to the character was... problematic, I guess? I feel like they should've just come up with a new name for him, because "the Mandarin" didn't fit at all.

 

[Teelie]

It's funny. If he's played by a white guy, no one bats an eyelash that Kryptonians look like white humans. If he's played by a black guy, people will start wondering why there are black guys in space. Our culture really has hard wired us to see white people as the default of life.

Unrelated to the issue of his race, I think Superman adaptations should borrow a page from Milestone Comics' character Icon (who, to tie it back to the subject, was created to be an African American counterpart to Superman), and say that Kryptonains actually don't look much like humans at all and that baby Kal-El's ship altered his appearance to superficially resemble the first intelligent life forms that approached the ship. That has little to do with the race issue and everything to do with the fact that aliens who look exactly like humans kind of bug me.

Aliens who look like humans is all about connecting and relating to them. Who would connect with something that looked like it came from your nightmares?

I read a book series once that brings up this very point (Old Man's War). In it there are several alien races in the universe. One is a anthropomorphic race that resemble deer. They look innocent and friendly to us but they love eating humans as a delicacy. We're literally food to them.

Another race looked menacing and evil. The nastiest things you can imagine. Peaceful, vegetarian and one of the closest allies humans had in the universe as a whole.

This was part of a lecture given to new recruits who had been on Earth their entire lives and didn't know much about the bigger universe out there.

The sum of it is that we can relate to those who look like us. In the more specific case of humans we're generally more trusting of those who look like us, meaning we're more likely to trust someone of our own race than that of another.

 

[The Question]

The Mandarin was always going to make little to no sense. The name "the Mandarin" is tied to Imperial China, and even the comic book character calling himself that makes less and less sense the further we get from that era in China's history. There haven't been any mandarins since the early 20th century, and our beloved villain was intended to be the last man claiming a title that's rendered meaningless in modern Communist China. They could've still feasibly made a Chinese Mandarin work if they had gone with him taking the title from his people's ancestry, but it still would've been a change in the character.

Casting an English Jewish Indian and doing what they did to the character was... problematic, I guess? I feel like they should've just come up with a new name for him, because "the Mandarin" didn't fit at all.

Well, for the purposes of this discussion I'm going off the assumption that Guy Pierce was the movie's version of The Mandarin, not Ben Kingsley. That was certainly the intention of the filmmakers, wether or not you agree that he counts.

 

[The Question]

Aliens who look like humans is all about connecting and relating to them. Who would connect with something that looked like it came from your nightmares?

Well, I mean, ET.

I read a book series once that brings up this very point (Old Man's War). In it there are several alien races in the universe. One is a anthropomorphic race that resemble deer. They look innocent and friendly to us but they love eating humans as a delicacy. We're literally food to them.

Another race looked menacing and evil. The nastiest things you can imagine. Peaceful, vegetarian and one of the closest allies humans had in the universe as a whole.

This was part of a lecture given to new recruits who had been on Earth their entire lives and didn't know much about the bigger universe out there.

The sum of it is that we can relate to those who look like us. In the more specific case of humans we're generally more trusting of those who look like us, meaning we're more likely to trust someone of our own race than that of another.

That's all fine. Which is why I brought up the ship based cosmetic changes idea.

 

[Teelie]

Well, for the purposes of this discussion I'm going off the assumption that Guy Pierce was the movie's version of The Mandarin, not Ben Kingsley. That was certainly the intention of the filmmakers, wether or not you agree that he counts.

And to further muddle that discussion, there's a one shot bonus video that makes the "real Mandarin" very angry at the imposters pretending to be him and using his organization as a cover story.

 

[The Question]

And to further muddle that discussion, there's a one shot bonus video that makes the "real Mandarin" very angry at the imposters pretending to be him and using his organization as a cover story.

That hasn't quite been confirmed yet. We know the one shot is about the Ten Rings organization going after Trevor, but we don't know if there's an actual Mandarin other than Guy Pierce's character or it's just the group.

Personally, I would have just gone with the notion that AIM and Killian created the Ten Rings group from scratch, just for the sake of keeping it simple, but that's just me.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I think Bruce Wayne is a bad example, since (although it doesn't seem much appreciated here) his family does actually have a backstory that's significant to the character.

But, let's take Spider-man, you could change his ethnicity without really compromising any backstory. But why would you? That's my question.

 

[The Question]

I think Bruce Wayne is a bad example, since (although it doesn't seem much appreciated here) his family does actually have a backstory that's significant to the character.

I still don't see why the family history is that significant.

But, let's take Spider-man, you could change his ethnicity without really compromising any backstory. But why would you? That's my question.

Because there's no reason not to and non-white people deserve a little more representation in popular media.

 

[Thundercrack85]

I still don't see why the family history is that significant.

Well, obviously some people disagree.

Because there's no reason not to and non-white people deserve a little more representation in popular media.

So, no reason, and we don't have enough non-white people.

I guess if they can't create non-white characters, the options are rather limited.

 

[Doctor Evo]

I think Bruce Wayne is a bad example, since (although it doesn't seem much appreciated here) his family does actually have a backstory that's significant to the character.

The issue is whether - within the context of an adaptation of a fictional universe - race actually plays a significant role here. Craigdbfan was unable to tie these together in any convincing fashion, but maybe you can.

But, let's take Spider-man, you could change his ethnicity without really compromising any backstory. But why would you? That's my question.

I honestly don't know. I mean, I thought that Donald Glover would have been amazing in the role, but otherwise I can't give a good answer.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The issue is whether - within the context of an adaptation of a fictional universe - race actually plays a significant role here. Craigdbfan was unable to tie these together in any convincing fashion, but maybe you can.

I honestly don't know. I mean, I thought that Donald Glover would have been amazing in the role, but otherwise I can't give a good answer.

Yeah. I think that might be the only compelling reason. For me anyway.

As for why Wayne's ethnicity is important, again, he's old money, he's establishment. He lives in an ancient manor (ancient by American standards). It's just part of his identity. Even in the films, you can see that by his surroundings.

 

[The Question]

So, no reason, and we don't have enough non-white people.

I didn't say no reason. I said that there's no reason not to.

I guess if they can't create non-white characters, the options are rather limited.

New non-white characters, or really new characters of any kind, almost never get popular enough to make it into a film adaptation. And pre-existing characters just mean a hell of a lot more than new ones. Spider-Man is a beloved cultural institution. Having a non-white actor play Peter Parker would be a lot more meaningful and visible than inventing a new character entirely.

As for why Wayne's ethnicity is important, again, he's old money, he's establishment. He lives in an ancient manor (ancient by American standards). It's just part of his identity. Even in the films, you can see that by his surroundings.

But I've yet to see how making it new money diminishes the character. I mean, yes, those are all character traits of Batman, but I don't see how changing them will effect the stories or the way that the character behaves or operates. His being from old money doesn't inform every aspect of every story he's in. It's a background element at most. If it were gone, I don't see what the difference would be.

So his family didn't basically found Gotham. So Wayne Manor is relatively new or was purchased by his grandfather in the 50s. So what?

 

[Doctor Evo]

Yeah. I think that might be the only compelling reason. For me anyway.

As for why Wayne's ethnicity is important, again, he's old money, he's establishment. He lives in an ancient manor (ancient by American standards). It's just part of his identity. Even in the films, you can see that by his surroundings.

Why would changing any of this significantly change the character? Why does the old-money aspect really matter?

 

[Thundercrack85]

I didn't say no reason. I said that there's no reason not to.

A lack of a reason not to is, is not a reason.

New non-white characters, or really new characters of any kind, almost never get popular enough to make it into a film adaptation. And pre-existing characters just mean a hell of a lot more than new ones. Spider-Man is a beloved cultural institution. Having a non-white actor play Peter Parker would be a lot more meaningful and visible than inventing a new character entirely.

See, that's a reason. But it still seems like a rather poor one to me.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Why would changing any of this significantly change the character? Why does the old-money aspect really matter?

You're not a Batman fan, are you?

 

[The Question]

A lack of a reason not to is, is not a reason.

But if there are reasons to do it (which has been demonstrated), and there isn't a reason not to, then what's controversial about it?

See, that's a reason. But it still seems like a rather poor one to me.

Why is it a poor reason? What exactly is the standard here?


My question to you: Why shouldn't it be done?

You're not a Batman fan, are you?

I'm a Batman fan. I love Batman. I've spent way too many hours just thinking about Batman. I also don't see why the old money aspect is a big deal.

 

[craigdbfan]

See that's one of the problems here. Some don't care about tossing out the white Anglo-Saxon & old money aspect out because they don't even view it as a form of culture. It's treated as if it's just a blank piece of paper without any significant meaning.

I think it's important because that's a cultural element that is deeply ingrained into the character of Bruce Wayne. Just like some see the T'Challa's African prince background inseparable from the character I view the Wayne's Anglo-Saxon background to be inseparable to both the characters and the foundations that surround him.

 

[Doctor Evo]

You're not a Batman fan, are you?

*Sits down cross-legged on the floor*

Please continue.

 

[Thundercrack85]

But if there are reasons to do it (which has been demonstrated), and there isn't a reason not to, then what's controversial about it?



Why is it a poor reason? What exactly is the standard here?


My question to you: Why shouldn't it be done?

You're asking why changing a character's ethnicity is controversial in a forum that gets upset when a character's costume is slightly altered?

My standard is fairly simple. I want a compelling reason for changing a character's ethnicity. So far all we have, is that there's a good actor who otherwise fits the part, but just doesn't happen to be the same ethnicity.