racism in hollywood - and how far it has come.

[The Question]

I already addressed that. It's not that there can't be no theme of legacy whatsoever; it's that it wouldn't have the exact same amount of impact. The whole "playboy act is ruining family's image but I have to in order to secretly fulfill their legacy as Batman by continuing to help the city" angle just wouldn't have the same impact under 3 generations as, for example, Solomon and Alan Wayne working with Gotham's architects on the city and their history with the Civil War. I'm sorry but it just wouldn't be the same.

Now, whether or not you like that angle is an entirely different topic but just because someone doesn't like something about a character does not mean it isn't important to the character. So many people hate that Batman doesn't kill the Joker and doesn't use guns. That doesn't mean his no-kill/gun rule isn't a huge part of his character. Me personally, I never cared too much for the whole paranoia angle that so many writers beef up, but many writers have beefed it up nonetheless.

But I see no evidence that it is important to the character. It's a relatively new addition to the mythos that's been the story-focus probably less than half a dozen times, rarely ever comes into play in any of Batman's adventures, doesn't have a whole lot of bearing on the core thematic elements that make Batman Batman, and have some very very discomforting connotations of elitist and anti-democratic thinking. It's a neat little bit of world building, but that's about it. And it's world building that doesn't even have to be lost in any significant way, you can still have stuff like the Judge Solomon Wayne Courthouse regardless of Bruce's ethnicity, a northern city naming it's main courthouse after one of it's first black judges from the late 1800s isn't an unheard of thing. The Wayne family can still have long standing roots in the history of Gotham City, it's just that instead of being rich white Europeans who came in and basically built the place, they came in with the rest of the poor working class masses who actually did the building, became pillars of the community through their actions and good works instead of their inherited wealth, and eventually amassed a fortune and rose to prominence as one of the city's richest and most powerful families through hard work and dedication to the people of Gotham.

You don't even have to lose the "playboy ruining the family image" schtick (even though I don't see it as the highest of priorities), because you can have the family image be based on the actions and the service of past Wayne family members instead of their bank accounts. Instead of a family history of shipping magnates and robber barons, you can give the Wayne family a legacy of activism and community organizing, or fighting for American Independence and the end of slavery and for civil rights for all Americans as the guys on the front lines and in the city streets and in the musty old taverns lighting a fire under the people of Gotham.

Instead of Judge Solomon Wayne being a rich guy who helped fund the construction of the city's skyline, make him the first person of color to hold such a public office in the city of Gotham, someone who from that seat fought to fully realize the promise of our constitution for the citizens under his care. Make Alan Wayne a famous journalist who took on organized crime and corrupt Democratic politics in Gotham's City Hall and wrote stories on the lives of the homeless and the mentally ill living in Gotham, bringing new attention to their plight and sorrows.

Honestly, wether they ever change Batman's race in an adaptation or not, that sounds a lot more appealing and a lot more interesting to me than the Waynes as Gotham's royal family.

 

[Victarion]

^Take that, change the names/hero gimmick and you might be onto something.

 

[The Question]

^Take that, change the names/hero gimmick and you might be onto something.

Or take that, use it in a Batman movie as it was originally proposed for, and you're equally onto something.

 

[Victarion]

No. I'm saying use it to develop your own franchise.

 

[The Question]

No. I'm saying use it to develop your own franchise.

Oh. I see, I thought you were being snide. My bad, I apologize.

Yeah, eh, maybe? I don't have that big an interest. It's really mostly appealing to me as an interpretation of the Batman mythos. By itself I don't think I'd be as into it. But who knows?

 

[Snow Queen]

Honestly, if it's a self contained series like the Nolan trilogy, I wouldn't be against this race change for Batman. I'd rather main continuity Batman stay white with the history he has now, since I quite enjoy that stuff and think that it works best with such a long family history tied to the city, but as an elseworlds kind of thing (which is essentially what I see film adaptations to be), I don't see why not.

 

[Thundercrack85]

The Question do you have a screenplay for a black Batman movie or something?

You're like the End and his mission to Mars.

 

[The Question]

The Question do you have a screenplay for a black Batman movie or something?

No. I made all that stuff up while I was typing it. I edited it, like, five times in half as many minutes because I kept thinking of ideas to add.

You're like the End and his mission to Mars.

I don't know what that means.

 

[Thundercrack85]

Anything for Superman?

 

[The Question]

Anything for Superman?

Like, a non-white Superman?

That seems even easier to me. Just make him a person of color. Make the Kents people of color. Non-white billionaires are sadly quite rare, but non-white farmers aren't. Really don't see any reason to change anything about Superman in that scenario, besides ethnicity of course.

If people start scratching their heads at the probability of an alien baby that just happens to look like a black human being found and adopted by black humans (which really just draws attention to how much we as a culture sadly view whiteness as the default norm), then you can say that Kryptonians don't actually look human but his ship cosmetically altered him to resemble the first humans he came in contact with so that they'd be more likely to protect him. Personally, I'd like to see that be a feature of the Superman mythos in general, regardless of any race changes. Also, the Kent's could be white, which would highlight the adoption thing.

Or, and this is my personal preference, they could have Kal-El be non-white and the Kents be non-white and just not bring it up ever.


Also, I think I mentioned this before, but Will Smith to play Superman. Will Smith would make an amazing Superman.

 

[Lencho01]

Now going to Latinos, it seems to me that Hollywood is more interested in the foreign born Latino actor that the American born. If the studios want someone to play a Latino and they want the film to be a success overseas, they will call on Javier Bardem. If not Bardem and they want to go a bit younger, they will go with either Gael Garcia Bernal or Diego Luna. All three (plus Antonio Banderas and Damien Bichir) all have international appeal because all of them can speak English very fluently but also speak fluent Spanish as well. We all see these foreign born Latin actors in English speaking roles all of the time. The closest thing we have to a Hispanic/American actor is Oscar Isaac, but he too is foreign born (born in Guatemala), although raised in Miami. Banderas is an American citizen, but not by birth. Isaac is also bilingual and so that will raise his international appeal. The English speaking roles that you usually see Bardem, Banderas, Bichir, Bernal, Luna and (soon Isaac as well) get means that American born Latino actors like Michael Pena, Adam Rodriguez, Freddy Rodriguez and others have to fight for scraps. But the foreign born actors have proven to be successful in the United States, Bardem especially.

You might find this interesting...

Michael Pena in Talks to Join 'Ant-Man' Cast

The studio looked at actors ranging from Javier Bardem to Clifton Collins Jr.

 

[moviedoors]

The whole "playboy act is ruining family's image but I have to in order to secretly fulfill their legacy as Batman by continuing to help the city" angle just wouldn't have the same impact under 3 generations

Absolutely it could! That's silly. Whether it's old money tied to the city, or it's new money and the public persona of Bruce Wayne is scrutinized for being a spoiled little **** in comparison to his grandparents, who could've made their money in a pre-Civil Rights world, the details are different, but the effect is the same.

you can still have stuff like the Judge Solomon Wayne Courthouse regardless of Bruce's ethnicity, a northern city naming it's main courthouse after one of it's first black judges from the late 1800s isn't an unheard of thing. The Wayne family can still have long standing roots in the history of Gotham City, it's just that instead of being rich white Europeans who came in and basically built the place, they came in with the rest of the poor working class masses who actually did the building, became pillars of the community through their actions and good works instead of their inherited wealth, and eventually amassed a fortune and rose to prominence as one of the city's richest and most powerful families through hard work and dedication to the people of Gotham.

This guy gets it.

 

[jaymes_e06]

I kind of agree with The Question.

Another example:
I think that a black James Bond can easily be done.

 

[Warhammer]

Oh, it definitely could. For years, if they Bond to be black, Chiwetel Ejiofor or Idris Elba were my top choices. Goodness gracious, that'd be cool. However, if I had it my way, I still would keep Bond as a white dude.

Movie industry, come up with some original ideas so Ejiofor or Elba can have a star vehicle!

 

[Thundercrack85]

I am getting kind of tired of Craig.

 

[Doctor Evo]

So you agree that the family legacy aspect is important to Batman's character? Then you agree you can't change Batman's race without affecting that.

The fact that you don't understand that there is a middle-ground between having no importance and having a high degree of importance is concerning, to say the least.

 

[The Question]

Absolutely it could! That's silly. Whether it's old money tied to the city, or it's new money and the public persona of Bruce Wayne is scrutinized for being a spoiled little **** in comparison to his grandparents, who could've made their money in a pre-Civil Rights world, the details are different, but the effect is the same.


This guy gets it.

Why thank you.

And, honestly, I think if you made the Waynes relatively new money, with perhaps adding in a family history before the wealth that made them admired and respected like I was suggesting, then I think the issue of people accusing Bruce of shaming the family history might be even stronger than if he comes from old money. "Your grandfather earned every single thing that you spend your evenings mindlessly squandering, Mr. Wayne. You disgrace his memory."

 

[moviedoors]

Why thank you.

And, honestly, I think if you made the Wayne's relatively new money, with perhaps adding in a family history before the wealth that made them admired and respected like I was suggesting, then I think the issue of people accusing Bruce of shaming the family history might be even stronger than if he comes from old money. "Your grandfather earned every single thing that you spend your evenings mindlessly squandering, Mr. Wayne. You disgrace his memory."

White or black, I think that's a great idea.

 

[Warhammer]

So you agree that the family legacy aspect is important to Batman's character? Then you agree you can't change Batman's race without affecting that.

I've got to agree with Evo on this one. You are simply putting too much into the Wayne family. Honestly man, this thread is the first time I've seen this much thought into the history of the Wayne family.

 

[XtremelyBaneful]

for so many of you to say making a character from literature like bruce wayne or james bond turned black brings back a few main points from my op. one of them being, that black and white actors have equal opportunities in hollywood.

with that being said, it's pretty much proven with y'all talking and discussing how it would not matter making them black - but if they were to change the character's race, why change it to black? why is that always the first choice of difference? why not change him to be asian? or brown? or hispanic? if we are going to have change at all?

 

[jaymes_e06]

You could do that too honestly. I think an Asian Bruce Wayne could work just as well as a black or white or whatever ethnicitied Bruce.

 

[Doctor Evo]

for so many of you to say making a character from literature like bruce wayne or james bond turned black brings back a few main points from my op. one of them being, that black and white actors have equal opportunities in hollywood.

with that being said, it's pretty much proven with y'all talking and discussing how it would not matter making them black - but if they were to change the character's race, why change it to black? why is that always the first choice of difference? why not change him to be asian? or brown? or hispanic? if we are going to have change at all?

Why not indeed?

 

[Thundercrack85]

for so many of you to say making a character from literature like bruce wayne or james bond turned black brings back a few main points from my op. one of them being, that black and white actors have equal opportunities in hollywood.

with that being said, it's pretty much proven with y'all talking and discussing how it would not matter making them black - but if they were to change the character's race, why change it to black? why is that always the first choice of difference? why not change him to be asian? or brown? or hispanic? if we are going to have change at all?

Probably because black is seen as the opposite / reverse of white by Westerners.

Plus, the names would be kind of an issue with the other groups mentioned.

 

[Doctor Evo]

Plus, the names would be kind of an issue with the other groups mentioned.

I'm a little too drunk right now to say for sure, but this seems like a pretty interesting point.

 

[moviedoors]

black and white actors have equal opportunities in hollywood.