Transformers Realism and Cartoons

[combocaz]

I thought this was a good read.

Maybe something for everyone to think about.

[credit to OneWingAngel.]


As I've been going through rants and raves about this movie, I've noticed a lot of self proclaimed fans whine and ***** about how this movie is ruining their childhood. Think about it, you're an adult crying over a toy and cartoon. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but you have to know the difference between being a fan and being a fanatic. Fanatics do not think logically. I am a huge TF fan, grew up watching the G1 cartoons, had the toys with authentic TF insignias you rub to see if it's an official Hasbro toy. At first I wasn't sure about the direction the movie was going w/ the designs. But being a fan means supporting the product, to help introduce future generations to something we've all grown and love.

1. What's up with Optimus Prime's design? First it was the complaint about his long nose and flames from AICN's leak. Quint recently talked to Bay about it and says, "The reason I went with the flames was to be able to define Prime's mid-section when he's a robot." Apparently, the flames are set sort of like ribs on the robot Prime, giving his mid-section more than just a monotone look. He also said that the only reason he picked a long-nose truck instead of a flat-nose truck was purely for the additional mass." This comparison image shows the differences between a G1 Prime and the new movie Prime.

Traditional Prime - Bay's Prime

I think using the traditional color scheme for Prime is a bit aesthetically boring. Robot mode looks fine but alt mode is just too uninteresting. So Prime looks more interesting and detailed with flames, so Bay decided to go that way. It doesn't mean Bay has gone his own way apart from the TF. The truck is almost identical to the G2 Laser Rod Optimus Prime. And it's a very common practice for semi owners to put decal on their trucks, be it flames or not. It's nothing new or surprising if you've driven on any US highway.

2. Why isn't Bumblebee a VW Bug? So people are crying that BB is not a vw bug but a camaro. So forget that Hasbro has been trying to get a VW out for some time, and Hasbro designer Aaron Archer stated, "Volkswagen had refused to license an Alternator BB. Volkswagen refused to license the car, however, supposedly due to the warlike nature of the Transformers. Since VW was hit hard in 2002 by a lawsuit by holocaust victims for their involvement in WWII (as a German manufacturer), VW is understandably reluctant to have its name tied to anything that could be considered a war machine." So yes, legally, they can't make BB like his G1 counterpart. But is his counterpart partically the best way to go? A yellow Camaro with black stripes look a lot more like a bumblebee than a yellow VW Bug. The Bug looks a lot more like a yellow dung beetle to me.

Camaro - VW Bug

Writers Bob and Alex stated that they wanted BB to be cool. As dorky as we see the VW Bug, in the 80's, it was considered a cool thing. Now, the Bug is everything but cool. I'm sure you played that game where when you saw a Slug Bug, you punched your friends. The car's a joke. Wouldn't you rather see Sam, as a leading character, drive the Camaro. He's not Lindsay Lohan and BB is not Herbie.

3. Why do the decepticons look like insects while the autobots look humanoid? Well, I'm surprised I haven't seen any one post this, but have you noticed the design for the TF resemble their insignias? Well, isn't that a shocker. The design team did use the most recognizable identification as a starting point in the design of the autobots and decepticons.

Transformers Insignias

4. The TF are too so complicated? It's gonna take forever to transform my toys. How many times are the producers/writers going to have to explain they're making a movie here, not a toyline. A movie design shouldn't be influenced by its merchandising. I want to see giant ****ing robots on screen transforming and destroying as cool and awestrucking as possible. If you're watching this movie just for the toy, you're watching it for the wrong reason. I'm watching a movie about characters I grew up with, separate from the G1 cartoons and toys. If I wanted it exactly like the cartoon, I would just watch them. If I wanted TF toys, than I would buy more TF Alternators. My Nemesis Prime is kicking *** on my shelf right now (and he's a Dodge Ram not a Semi). Transformers The Movie, is exactly what it says it is in the title. A movie.

5. The writers don't know anything about the G1 cartoon. The cartoon is perfect as is. Have you seen the cartoons lately? Episode 1, doesn't make sense that all the transformers in Cybertronian form look like their alt mode on Earth, before they even arrive there. Bumblebee is a VW Bug in robot mode and a flying saucer in his alt mode.

Bumblebee, the flying saucer.

The cartoon is not exactly the perfect source material. And fans complain about exposing parts in a movie that hasn't even come out yet. I'm thinking people are just looking for things to nitpick at now. Change it up to make it more acceptable. They are living beings. They need a complicated body not just balljoints. Fear of change has given fans this mindset that what a person grew up with as perfect.

6. They got Spider-man and X-men right, why can't they get Transformers right? SM was far from perfect. Dunst made a horrible MJ which should've been Gwen Stacey. Green Goblin looked like a power ranger. Organic webbing, genetically altered spider, changes continue. But no matter the changes, it was still a fun movie. X-men had Halle Berry's disappearing/reappearing African accent. Wolverine is a foot taller than he's suppose to be. Rogue can't fly, Jean Grey evolved into the phoenix, etc. Singer took a lot of creative liberties with XM, but the spirit of the XM was there, so the movie succeeded. So what the fans should be so adamant about are the personalities of each character not the design.

7. We absolutely hate Starscream! I have to agree, he's just ugly. No arguments. The toy prototype does resemble Waspinator. But remember, it's just an early toy prototype. It's not even colored. Wouldn't surprise me if they changed Starscream's design. Being vocal, yet logical, does help when you can give constructive criticisms.

8. Megatron should be a gun! I've always hated megatron as a gun. So ignore the fact that the 1988 “Federal Toy Gun Law” forbids the sale of toy guns, Megatron's alt mode is a mass shifting pistol that doesn't have mobility and requires Starscream to fire. So I welcome the change of Megatron to be more like Galvatron. So he looks hideous. But remember, in the leaked script, Megatron appears on Earth and gets discovered in the late 19th century, before tanks and jets. He has to look not from this Earth as much as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if Megatron adapts to a more modern alt mode as the story progresses.

9. Jazz should be a porsche! Well, I agree there too but considering Porsche owns a large share of VW, they might follow the same views on war machines being associated with them. I saw a white 2006 Pontiac Solstice yesterday, and it doesn't look bad. Passible as Jazz even though he's gray in the movie, shows up better on screen? Who knows. Those who complain about the value of the car, low production of the Solstice makes it a bit more rare. I'm curious about why there are so many American cars. I'm hoping a way to can get more imports in Transformers is by supporting the movie to make it a success so car manufacturers will compete for a chance to have a concept in the upcoming sequels.

10. Bay as a director? What more do you want? Bay's directing, Speilberg producing, ILM doing effects. Bay knows action ie. Bad Boys 2, the Rock, though critics say his stories are usually lacking. But as least his dialogs aren't as wooden as Lucas'. Padme's dead? NOOO! Bay specializes in fast action, low angle shots with lots of panning. That's perfect for the TF. You want Michael Mann's shaky cam shots? Singer? Superman didn't throw one punch in the whole movie, just stalked Lois the whole 3 hours. Peter Jackson would have had a 20 minute slow motion scene. Raimi would do his Evil Dead sped up style. There's no one better than Bay for this project.

There's no pleasing some fans. Be happy a movie is even being made. If you don't like it, you have the 20th Anniversary Movie coming to DVD. But I think the reason everyone keeps coming back to the boards, ranting or raving, is because we're all excited about this movie. So like any other origin stories told on the big screen, support it so they can make a sequel even better than the first.

Before I read comments that I'm a plant from the studio or a single 40 year old virgin fanboy who lives in his mother's basement, I'm 27. I own my home and my gf is standing next to me yelling at me for looking at Transformers way too damn much. Studied film in school, 2 degrees from the Univ. of Texas. Worked for the government doing satellite surveillance and texture maps for game companies. Hung out with Kevin Spacey when he filmed "Life of David Gale" and my car was used in Linklater's "Fast Food Nation". I have a big love for cinema and Transformers. Looking forward to seeing it as I'm sure most of you are.

A true Transformers fan.

 

[xwolverine2]

im afraid you wrote all that for nothing

 

[combocaz]

500 posts, lol took me over 2 yrs.

 

[xwolverine2]

you dissed peter jackson

 

[Golgo-13]

Yep, he's a studio plant.

 

[Theweepeople]

Studio plant or not I agreed with 90% of what he said except the Sam Rami comment. I would have no problem with Rami directing this film.

 

[millennium movies]

I like Raimi but im not shure he has that 6th sense about action the way Bay seems to have it down.

 

[xwolverine2]

raimi?

i dont think so!

 

[Syncos]

IMHO Bay's only good movies were The Rock, and The Island. He doesn't have enough movies under his belt to be "the man" about anything, nomatter how much the action in The Island rocked, it doesn't make him the action jesus.

I think he deserves as much a shot as anyone to give us what he's got, but a transformers movie is not 'made for bay'.
That is all.
-Syn

 

[CFlash]

IMHO Bay's only good movies were The Rock, and The Island. He doesn't have enough movies under his belt to be "the man" about anything, nomatter how much the action in The Island rocked, it doesn't make him the action jesus.

I think he deserves as much a shot as anyone to give us what he's got, but a transformers movie is not 'made for bay'.
That is all.
-Syn

Despite my hatred for the types of movies this guy does, I have to somewhat disagree with this. Bay- with very little experience mind you- proved that he can pack them in at the movie theaters. In a Big Way! No other director that I know of has ever risen so high so fast. Heck!... Raimi took over 20 years (and lots of great cult movies to back him up).

However, that WAS the 90's... pre 9/11. He WAS the "the man" back then!" But I honestly don't think people have the stomach for Bay's trite and cliched take on violence. Bay's ONLY movie since 9/11 was The Island... and that wasn't exactly a mega-blockbuster. I honestly think (I hope!) people have grown tired of the Bay / Emmerich crappy Hollywood Fluff.

As for Sam Raimi.... As much as I love the guy (and I LOVE SAM RAIMI) he might bring a little too much camp to Transformers. It worked great for Spidey.... but Transformers is classically a pure "sci-fi" story... so I'd rather see someone like Cameron, or Scott, or Zemeckis do it. But I dunno.... I think I would definately pick Raimi over Bay any day.....

Bay (IMHO) truly represents everything that is wrong with Hollywood.

 

[nosebleed.]

I think using the traditional color scheme for Prime is a bit aesthetically boring. Robot mode looks fine but alt mode is just too uninteresting. So Prime looks more interesting and detailed with flames, so Bay decided to go that way. It doesn't mean Bay has gone his own way apart from the TF. The truck is almost identical to the G2 Laser Rod Optimus Prime. And it's a very common practice for semi owners to put decal on their trucks, be it flames or not. It's nothing new or surprising if you've driven on any US highway.

I really don't have beef with Prime having flames. But I do think that it is an unnecessary change. It is mostly for Bay to make Prime look more "badass" for lack of a better word. If Bay feels Prime doesn't have enough characterization to come across as "badass" without the flames, then flame-on I guess.

2. Why isn't Bumblebee a VW Bug? So people are crying that BB is not a vw bug but a camaro. So forget that Hasbro has been trying to get a VW out for some time, and Hasbro designer Aaron Archer stated, "Volkswagen had refused to license an Alternator BB. Volkswagen refused to license the car, however, supposedly due to the warlike nature of the Transformers. Since VW was hit hard in 2002 by a lawsuit by holocaust victims for their involvement in WWII (as a German manufacturer), VW is understandably reluctant to have its name tied to anything that could be considered a war machine." So yes, legally, they can't make BB like his G1 counterpart. But is his counterpart partically the best way to go? A yellow Camaro with black stripes look a lot more like a bumblebee than a yellow VW Bug. The Bug looks a lot more like a yellow dung beetle to me.

BB into a camaro doesn't bother me too much either...but I can understand why people are upset.

Camaro - VW Bug

Writers Bob and Alex stated that they wanted BB to be cool. As dorky as we see the VW Bug, in the 80's, it was considered a cool thing. Now, the Bug is everything but cool. I'm sure you played that game where when you saw a Slug Bug, you punched your friends. The car's a joke. Wouldn't you rather see Sam, as a leading character, drive the Camaro. He's not Lindsay Lohan and BB is not Herbie.

VW Bug may be a joke, but when they make such a drastic change from the original visual characterization of BB being an underdog to a "badass" (there goes that word again) Camaro, they should expect someone to say something.

3. Why do the decepticons look like insects while the autobots look humanoid? Well, I'm surprised I haven't seen any one post this, but have you noticed the design for the TF resemble their insignias? Well, isn't that a shocker. The design team did use the most recognizable identification as a starting point in the design of the autobots and decepticons.

I've never noticed that...good point that I'll have to keep in mind. But Megatron is still fugly, and Starscream's a gorilla.

The cartoon is not exactly the perfect source material. And fans complain about exposing parts in a movie that hasn't even come out yet. I'm thinking people are just looking for things to nitpick at now. Change it up to make it more acceptable. They are living beings. They need a complicated body not just balljoints. Fear of change has given fans this mindset that what a person grew up with as perfect.

Complicated bodies does not equate to unrecognizable Transformers. Prime is perfectly recognizable to previous incarnations...Megatron is recognizable to Sauron.

So what the fans should be so adamant about are the personalities of each character not the design.

While I am adamant about the character's personalities (much moreso than the designs to tell the truth), the designs are pretty damn important.

7. We absolutely hate Starscream! I have to agree, he's just ugly. No arguments. The toy prototype does resemble Waspinator. But remember, it's just an early toy prototype. It's not even colored. Wouldn't surprise me if they changed Starscream's design. Being vocal, yet logical, does help when you can give constructive criticisms.

8. Megatron should be a gun! I've always hated megatron as a gun. So ignore the fact that the 1988 “Federal Toy Gun Law” forbids the sale of toy guns, Megatron's alt mode is a mass shifting pistol that doesn't have mobility and requires Starscream to fire. So I welcome the change of Megatron to be more like Galvatron. So he looks hideous. But remember, in the leaked script, Megatron appears on Earth and gets discovered in the late 19th century, before tanks and jets. He has to look not from this Earth as much as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if Megatron adapts to a more modern alt mode as the story progresses.

I agree that Megatron should not be a gun...but I think a tank or a cannon would have sufficed perfectly. While he does need to look alien, I think his robot mode (at least his face) shouldn't change too much when he adapts to his earth mode. That's why I think that the argument of, "This is his cybertronian mode, his earth mode will be completely different" is reaching. I bet Prime's cybertronian mode didn't look as drastically different from his earth mode. But who knows, I could be completely wrong and then all of you can step on my crotch.

10. Bay as a director? What more do you want? Bay's directing, Speilberg producing, ILM doing effects. Bay knows action ie. Bad Boys 2, the Rock, though critics say his stories are usually lacking. But as least his dialogs aren't as wooden as Lucas'. Padme's dead? NOOO! Bay specializes in fast action, low angle shots with lots of panning. That's perfect for the TF. You want Michael Mann's shaky cam shots? Singer? Superman didn't throw one punch in the whole movie, just stalked Lois the whole 3 hours. Peter Jackson would have had a 20 minute slow motion scene. Raimi would do his Evil Dead sped up style. There's no one better than Bay for this project.

I think there are quite a few people who would be able to do a better job...but they either didn't want the job or have other jobs. But we sure could have done a lot worse than Bay so I won't dwell on the subject.

There's no pleasing some fans. Be happy a movie is even being made. If you don't like it, you have the 20th Anniversary Movie coming to DVD. But I think the reason everyone keeps coming back to the boards, ranting or raving, is because we're all excited about this movie. So like any other origin stories told on the big screen, support it so they can make a sequel even better than the first.

While I am happy that this movie is being made, I don't want to walk into it with high expectations and walk out disappointed. I consider expecting the worst to be my armor...it shields me from the brunt of disappointment. But as far as this being the origin story, that's exactly why some people are irked...the origin is almost a reimagining. Its sort of G1 but its also completely different. It depends on how much change you're willing to accept I guess...and I can accept a lot. Just not that fugly Megatron and Starscream.

Before I read comments that I'm a plant from the studio or a single 40 year old virgin fanboy who lives in his mother's basement, I'm 27. I own my home and my gf is standing next to me yelling at me for looking at Transformers way too damn much. Studied film in school, 2 degrees from the Univ. of Texas. Worked for the government doing satellite surveillance and texture maps for game companies. Hung out with Kevin Spacey when he filmed "Life of David Gale" and my car was used in Linklater's "Fast Food Nation". I have a big love for cinema and Transformers. Looking forward to seeing it as I'm sure most of you are.

I can relate perfectly. I'm 29, married to a beautiful woman who tries to ban me from SHH on a daily basis. I have 3 degrees, work as a computer security specialist for the government and also have a great love for all things cinema. I am looking forward to this movie with a passion and am ready to throw popcorn at the screen if we get War of the Worlds with Transformers in it.

A true Transformers fan.

ditto

 

[nosebleed.]

Quint at AICN sums my feelings up pretty damn good in this paragraph:

Once again, the overall feeling I got from my time on the set is that Bay is going for broke in terms of the scope of the film and the action involved. This will be a huge action spectacular, no doubt. The only real question is really how much Transformers fans will be able to recognize. Bay's making progress into the fan's territory. He's hired Peter Cullen, he obviously reads what you guys say whenever a story is posted. But it's clear he's making his movie. We'll see if he hits that balance of fun movie for the masses and one respectful to the source material. No matter what, he's certainly a fun character to write about and I've had a lot of fun watching him work. I hope I'll have just as much or more fun next summer in the theater. I mean, is it really that hard to mess up a giant fighting robot movie?

 

[Headless Knight]

As for Sam Raimi.... As much as I love the guy (and I LOVE SAM RAIMI) he might bring a little too much camp to Transformers. It worked great for Spidey.... but Transformers is classically a pure "sci-fi" story... so I'd rather see someone like Cameron, or Scott, or Zemeckis do it. But I dunno.... I think I would definately pick Raimi over Bay any day.....

No offense, but I think you are overrating the Transformers just a little bit. A "pure sci-fi story"? Transformers are at least as campy as Spider-Man, probably more. And taking a campy concept too seriously actually increases the overall cheesiness.

 

[nosebleed.]

No offense, but I think you are overrating the Transformers just a little bit. A "pure sci-fi story"? Transformers are at least as campy as Spider-Man, probably more. And taking a campy concept too seriously actually increases the overall cheesiness.

But you see...Transformers in the hands of a good director has the possibility to BE a "pure sci-fi story" especially if a lot of the source material comes from the comics. Cameron would have been able to pull that off perfectly. Zemeckis would have done so as well as added a great human touch to the Transformers themselves.

If you can open your mind to the possibilities then what you call a campy concept has limitless potential.

 

[Backdrifter]

Despite my hatred for the types of movies this guy does, I have to somewhat disagree with this. Bay- with very little experience mind you- proved that he can pack them in at the movie theaters. In a Big Way! No other director that I know of has ever risen so high so fast. Heck!... Raimi took over 20 years (and lots of great cult movies to back him up).

However, that WAS the 90's... pre 9/11. He WAS the "the man" back then!" But I honestly don't think people have the stomach for Bay's trite and cliched take on violence. Bay's ONLY movie since 9/11 was The Island... and that wasn't exactly a mega-blockbuster. I honestly think (I hope!) people have grown tired of the Bay / Emmerich crappy Hollywood Fluff.

As for Sam Raimi.... As much as I love the guy (and I LOVE SAM RAIMI) he might bring a little too much camp to Transformers. It worked great for Spidey.... but Transformers is classically a pure "sci-fi" story... so I'd rather see someone like Cameron, or Scott, or Zemeckis do it. But I dunno.... I think I would definately pick Raimi over Bay any day.....

Bay (IMHO) truly represents everything that is wrong with Hollywood.

Lol. Yeah. Uh huh.

Transformers is fantasy.

 

[Headless Knight]

But you see...Transformers in the hands of a good director has the possibility to BE a "pure sci-fi story" especially if a lot of the source material comes from the comics.

The comics were campy as hell too. It has a few good arcs, but most of it is too ridiculous to live. And some of it is great because of that.

Cameron would have been able to pull that off perfectly. Zemeckis would have done so as well as added a great human touch to the Transformers themselves.

But you see... Cameron is an action director, not a sci-fi director. His sci-fi movies are all more action than sci-fi. But I agree he would be an awesome choice for a Transformers movie, for that exact reason.

You see, a "pure sci-fi story" is something that uses scientific and/or metaphysic extrapolations to make complex thematic observations about the human race (e.g. Phillip K. Dick, Asimov, etc), and that's what the Transformers movie should definitely not do.

This has to be like Aliens, Star Wars, T2. It doesn't have the potential to be a "2001", sorry.

(And btw, Zemeckis? He can do generic action stuff like he did circa Back To The Future and Forrest Gump, but you give him giant robots and he'd be totally lost. Seriously.)

If you can open your mind to the possibilities then what you call a campy concept has limitless potential.

I think the movie should take itself seriously enough to achieve some pathos, make us care for the characters, but it shouldn't try to be much more than an action movie.

All that said, I do think the script should have more sci-fi stuff, esp. in what concerns to the relationships between the tfs and their culture.

 

[nosebleed.]

I think the movie should take itself seriously enough to achieve some pathos, make us care for the characters, but it shouldn't try to be much more than an action movie.

All that said, I do think the script should have more sci-fi stuff, esp. in what concerns to the relationships between the tfs and their culture.

I can live with this. I must be tired when I quoted. You're right about "pure" sci fi...TFs is not. But it could have been great sci fi along the lines of Star Wars. A more serious sci fi action movie than just great explosions. I hope it will deliver along those lines...but I seriously doubt it.

 

[CFlash]

The comics were campy as hell too. It has a few good arcs, but most of it is too ridiculous to live. And some of it is great because of that.

But you see... Cameron is an action director, not a sci-fi director. His sci-fi movies are all more action than sci-fi. But I agree he would be an awesome choice for a Transformers movie, for that exact reason.

You see, a "pure sci-fi story" is something that uses scientific and/or metaphysic extrapolations to make complex thematic observations about the human race (e.g. Phillip K. Dick, Asimov, etc), and that's what the Transformers movie should definitely not do.

<snip>

This sounds to me like its spoken like a guy who has no clue about Transformers or even sci-fi in general. I like 2001.... and Phillip Dick... but I would never say Aliens is not in the same camp as "great sci-fi". Especially after seing the Special Edition (which puts in every scene that was in the original novelization and screenplay)... it speaks greatly about the human condition.... particularly the parental condition and the lies we tell our kids.....
It's no coincidence that Ripley has to fight the Queen at the end!
Man, that movie (truly only evident in the Special Edition!!! not the original) was nothing but metaphors.... sci fi at its best!

Transformers, despite being a kids show, had a lot to say about our world. You say sci-fi uses "scientific and/or metaphysic extrapolations to make complex thematic observations about the human race"...

Well, it doesn't get much more pertinant or relevant (especially TODAY) than our machine's reliance on fossil fuels for energy. Or the fact that in many ways we are slaves to the technology around us (this was an early sci-fi premise of Superman as well.... one man stronger than "Industry" and automation.... also kinda lost through time).

Maybe I'm hippie... but this point (machines -> natural resources) of the original Transformers was not lost on me (although it appears to have been lost on Bay). All you gotta do is see one scene where the Decepticons turn some natural resource into Energon Cubes to get the whole point.

Is it Shakespeare? No. Is it even as deep as 2001 or Bladerunner?... No it's a freakin kids comic book and cartoon. But it is, nontheless, true sci-fi... and could be great sci-fi in the hands of the right person.

 

[Knightsaber Priss]

Hey, I'm an unabashed cry baby. I'm not ashamed of that. Is it so wrong to grieve the fact that mediocrity is being tolerated in this world?

 

[xwolverine2]

Quint at AICN sums my feelings up pretty damn good in this paragraph:

the movieblog people sum up my feelings perfectly

 

[Theweepeople]

Bay (IMHO) truly represents everything that is wrong with Hollywood.

I don't agree with this. I think Brett Ratner represents everything that is wrong with Hollywood. That hack spends more time hanging out with the cast of his films than paying attention to critical details in the movies he directs. At least Micheal Bay has proven on more than one occasion that he can make a good blockbuster film.

 

[Headless Knight]

This sounds to me like its spoken like a guy who has no clue about Transformers or even sci-fi in general.

C'mon dude, you know that's not true.

I have every single american Marvel TF comic (and I don't even live in the US). I've seen every season of the original G1 cartoon several times (including that lousy third season, though I've seen little or nothing of Beast Wars and the like).

And about sci-fi in general... you don't want to be going down that road, trust me.

I like 2001.... and Phillip Dick... but I would never say Aliens is not in the same camp as "great sci-fi". Especially after seing the Special Edition (which puts in every scene that was in the original novelization and screenplay)... it speaks greatly about the human condition.... particularly the parental condition and the lies we tell our kids.....
It's no coincidence that Ripley has to fight the Queen at the end!
Man, that movie (truly only evident in the Special Edition!!! not the original) was nothing but metaphors.... sci fi at its best!

I own the original, and it's an action movie with sci-fi elements. Never seen the Special Edition, and I doubt it's much more profound. But I could be wrong, I guess.

Transformers, despite being a kids show, had a lot to say about our world. You say sci-fi uses "scientific and/or metaphysic extrapolations to make complex thematic observations about the human race"...

Well, it doesn't get much more pertinant or relevant (especially TODAY) than our machine's reliance on fossil fuels for energy. Or the fact that in many ways we are slaves to the technology around us (this was an early sci-fi premise of Superman as well.... one man stronger than "Industry" and automation.... also kinda lost through time).

Maybe I'm hippie... but this point (machines -> natural resources) of the original Transformers was not lost on me (although it appears to have been lost on Bay). All you gotta do is see one scene where the Decepticons turn some natural resource into Energon Cubes to get the whole point.

Is it Shakespeare? No. Is it even as deep as 2001 or Bladerunner?... No it's a freakin kids comic book and cartoon. But it is, nontheless, true sci-fi... and could be great sci-fi in the hands of the right person.

I guess... with some effort you could delve into an eco-subtext in a giant robot summer movie, but do we even want that? I mean, the fact that they're bringing their civil war to our world seems much more interesting to me. That is the most important concept IMHO, and fortunately that's what the movie is about. The natural resources angle... yeah, maybe in a sequel. In this one... it would demand too much screen time to be done properly, and if not done properly, it would seem pointless and pretentious.

 

[Timstuff]

I thought this was a good read.

Maybe something for everyone to think about.

[credit to OneWingAngel.]


As I've been going through rants and raves about this movie, I've noticed a lot of self proclaimed fans whine and ***** about how this movie is ruining their childhood. Think about it, you're an adult crying over a toy and cartoon. There's nothing wrong with being a fan, but you have to know the difference between being a fan and being a fanatic. Fanatics do not think logically. I am a huge TF fan, grew up watching the G1 cartoons, had the toys with authentic TF insignias you rub to see if it's an official Hasbro toy. At first I wasn't sure about the direction the movie was going w/ the designs. But being a fan means supporting the product, to help introduce future generations to something we've all grown and love.

1. What's up with Optimus Prime's design? First it was the complaint about his long nose and flames from AICN's leak. Quint recently talked to Bay about it and says, "The reason I went with the flames was to be able to define Prime's mid-section when he's a robot." Apparently, the flames are set sort of like ribs on the robot Prime, giving his mid-section more than just a monotone look. He also said that the only reason he picked a long-nose truck instead of a flat-nose truck was purely for the additional mass." This comparison image shows the differences between a G1 Prime and the new movie Prime.

Traditional Prime - Bay's Prime

I think using the traditional color scheme for Prime is a bit aesthetically boring. Robot mode looks fine but alt mode is just too uninteresting. So Prime looks more interesting and detailed with flames, so Bay decided to go that way. It doesn't mean Bay has gone his own way apart from the TF. The truck is almost identical to the G2 Laser Rod Optimus Prime. And it's a very common practice for semi owners to put decal on their trucks, be it flames or not. It's nothing new or surprising if you've driven on any US highway.

2. Why isn't Bumblebee a VW Bug? So people are crying that BB is not a vw bug but a camaro. So forget that Hasbro has been trying to get a VW out for some time, and Hasbro designer Aaron Archer stated, "Volkswagen had refused to license an Alternator BB. Volkswagen refused to license the car, however, supposedly due to the warlike nature of the Transformers. Since VW was hit hard in 2002 by a lawsuit by holocaust victims for their involvement in WWII (as a German manufacturer), VW is understandably reluctant to have its name tied to anything that could be considered a war machine." So yes, legally, they can't make BB like his G1 counterpart. But is his counterpart partically the best way to go? A yellow Camaro with black stripes look a lot more like a bumblebee than a yellow VW Bug. The Bug looks a lot more like a yellow dung beetle to me.

Camaro - VW Bug

Writers Bob and Alex stated that they wanted BB to be cool. As dorky as we see the VW Bug, in the 80's, it was considered a cool thing. Now, the Bug is everything but cool. I'm sure you played that game where when you saw a Slug Bug, you punched your friends. The car's a joke. Wouldn't you rather see Sam, as a leading character, drive the Camaro. He's not Lindsay Lohan and BB is not Herbie.

3. Why do the decepticons look like insects while the autobots look humanoid? Well, I'm surprised I haven't seen any one post this, but have you noticed the design for the TF resemble their insignias? Well, isn't that a shocker. The design team did use the most recognizable identification as a starting point in the design of the autobots and decepticons.

Transformers Insignias

4. The TF are too so complicated? It's gonna take forever to transform my toys. How many times are the producers/writers going to have to explain they're making a movie here, not a toyline. A movie design shouldn't be influenced by its merchandising. I want to see giant ****ing robots on screen transforming and destroying as cool and awestrucking as possible. If you're watching this movie just for the toy, you're watching it for the wrong reason. I'm watching a movie about characters I grew up with, separate from the G1 cartoons and toys. If I wanted it exactly like the cartoon, I would just watch them. If I wanted TF toys, than I would buy more TF Alternators. My Nemesis Prime is kicking *** on my shelf right now (and he's a Dodge Ram not a Semi). Transformers The Movie, is exactly what it says it is in the title. A movie.

5. The writers don't know anything about the G1 cartoon. The cartoon is perfect as is. Have you seen the cartoons lately? Episode 1, doesn't make sense that all the transformers in Cybertronian form look like their alt mode on Earth, before they even arrive there. Bumblebee is a VW Bug in robot mode and a flying saucer in his alt mode.

Bumblebee, the flying saucer.

The cartoon is not exactly the perfect source material. And fans complain about exposing parts in a movie that hasn't even come out yet. I'm thinking people are just looking for things to nitpick at now. Change it up to make it more acceptable. They are living beings. They need a complicated body not just balljoints. Fear of change has given fans this mindset that what a person grew up with as perfect.

6. They got Spider-man and X-men right, why can't they get Transformers right? SM was far from perfect. Dunst made a horrible MJ which should've been Gwen Stacey. Green Goblin looked like a power ranger. Organic webbing, genetically altered spider, changes continue. But no matter the changes, it was still a fun movie. X-men had Halle Berry's disappearing/reappearing African accent. Wolverine is a foot taller than he's suppose to be. Rogue can't fly, Jean Grey evolved into the phoenix, etc. Singer took a lot of creative liberties with XM, but the spirit of the XM was there, so the movie succeeded. So what the fans should be so adamant about are the personalities of each character not the design.

7. We absolutely hate Starscream! I have to agree, he's just ugly. No arguments. The toy prototype does resemble Waspinator. But remember, it's just an early toy prototype. It's not even colored. Wouldn't surprise me if they changed Starscream's design. Being vocal, yet logical, does help when you can give constructive criticisms.

8. Megatron should be a gun! I've always hated megatron as a gun. So ignore the fact that the 1988 &#8220;Federal Toy Gun Law&#8221; forbids the sale of toy guns, Megatron's alt mode is a mass shifting pistol that doesn't have mobility and requires Starscream to fire. So I welcome the change of Megatron to be more like Galvatron. So he looks hideous. But remember, in the leaked script, Megatron appears on Earth and gets discovered in the late 19th century, before tanks and jets. He has to look not from this Earth as much as possible. I wouldn't be surprised if Megatron adapts to a more modern alt mode as the story progresses.

9. Jazz should be a porsche! Well, I agree there too but considering Porsche owns a large share of VW, they might follow the same views on war machines being associated with them. I saw a white 2006 Pontiac Solstice yesterday, and it doesn't look bad. Passible as Jazz even though he's gray in the movie, shows up better on screen? Who knows. Those who complain about the value of the car, low production of the Solstice makes it a bit more rare. I'm curious about why there are so many American cars. I'm hoping a way to can get more imports in Transformers is by supporting the movie to make it a success so car manufacturers will compete for a chance to have a concept in the upcoming sequels.

10. Bay as a director? What more do you want? Bay's directing, Speilberg producing, ILM doing effects. Bay knows action ie. Bad Boys 2, the Rock, though critics say his stories are usually lacking. But as least his dialogs aren't as wooden as Lucas'. Padme's dead? NOOO! Bay specializes in fast action, low angle shots with lots of panning. That's perfect for the TF. You want Michael Mann's shaky cam shots? Singer? Superman didn't throw one punch in the whole movie, just stalked Lois the whole 3 hours. Peter Jackson would have had a 20 minute slow motion scene. Raimi would do his Evil Dead sped up style. There's no one better than Bay for this project.

There's no pleasing some fans. Be happy a movie is even being made. If you don't like it, you have the 20th Anniversary Movie coming to DVD. But I think the reason everyone keeps coming back to the boards, ranting or raving, is because we're all excited about this movie. So like any other origin stories told on the big screen, support it so they can make a sequel even better than the first.

Before I read comments that I'm a plant from the studio or a single 40 year old virgin fanboy who lives in his mother's basement, I'm 27. I own my home and my gf is standing next to me yelling at me for looking at Transformers way too damn much. Studied film in school, 2 degrees from the Univ. of Texas. Worked for the government doing satellite surveillance and texture maps for game companies. Hung out with Kevin Spacey when he filmed "Life of David Gale" and my car was used in Linklater's "Fast Food Nation". I have a big love for cinema and Transformers. Looking forward to seeing it as I'm sure most of you are.

A true Transformers fan.

Wow, that's an excellent assessment! That's pretty much how I feel. Fanatics need to stop whining and accept that sometimes, change is good. This project is coming along great so far, and I can't wait to see the finished product.

 

[CFlash]

I own the original, and it's an action movie with sci-fi elements. Never seen the Special Edition, and I doubt it's much more profound. But I could be wrong, I guess.

You're very wrong I think. It's a lot more profound. I was never a "big" fan of Aliens. I mean I liked it... but I had read the novelization when I was a kid and I thought the movie was... well, a little empty. It lacked a certain heart.

The Special Edition inserts all the scenes that were intended to be in the movie. They're not really B.S. scenes either... most of them are poignant scenes of Ripley (finding out about her biological daughter on Earth for instance). Because of the Special Edition, it went from being OK to being one of my top 5 movies of all time.

 

[nosebleed.]

Wow, that's an excellent assessment! That's pretty much how I feel. Fanatics need to stop whining and accept that sometimes, change is good. This project is coming along great so far, and I can't wait to see the finished product.

Great way to separate things into black and white. Like there are no fans who are in the gray area. Quit being so naive.

You saying, "stop whining and accept" pretty much sounds to me like, "Shutup and take it with no vaseline". Nope, sorry, I'm not gonna do that. There is nothing wrong with change yeah, but if you think that all the changes they are making are solely to enhance story and to make the Transformers mythos a better thing then you are fooling yourself. The majority of the changes being made are to create new toylines, and Bay is not fighting it because he's getting a percentage of the revenue. So here's the movie so far, "Let's make a movie with big explosions, big fighting robots and then we'll sell a lot of toys". If its any deeper than that then please let me know.