Rogue, they ruined her, or did they?

[skruloos]

Based on the previous two movies.

In a deleted scene for X1 (on the DVD), she even actually asks Storm if she can be cured...

Yes, and in the continuation of the series, she earns her stripes as an X-Men and realizes she can use her "curse" for good. One of the things the X-Men help her do is look at her "curse" as a gift and become proud of it.

X3 built on that and brought it to a natural conclusion for the movie version of the character. It wasn't the only option, but it was an option that fitted the character.

Except that the natural progression of the character was to understand her power and her place with the X-Men instead of constantly searching for alternatives or a cure.

Even without that deleted scene, it's quite clear that her powers are not an advantage for normal life. As she says in X3, she is unable to give a hug, handshake or kiss to anyone, let alone be with her boyfriend. It makes sense within the movie world.

Again, you are relying on dialogue when the subtext shows quite differently. Actions speak louder then words. Sorry, but the themes in the movies and Rogue's place do not support your argument.

The fact that you bring up the deleted scene is a perfect example on bad characterization. Her character asked for a cure in the 1st movie. She does not ask for it in the second movie. She has been concentrating on finding alternative ways of having a relationship and proving herself to the X-Men. That is her forward momentum. The 3rd movie reverts her back to how she was in the 2nd movie, thereby undermining what was established in the latter half of the first movie and the entirety of the second. Now, if the 2nd movie had explored her need for physical touch more and then the 3rd movie focused on her crisis with making the decision, then maybe her arc would seem natural. As it is, the character is inconsistent.

 

[X-Maniac]

Yes, and in the continuation of the series, she earns her stripes as an X-Men and realizes she can use her "curse" for good. One of the things the X-Men help her do is look at her "curse" as a gift and become proud of it.


Except that the natural progression of the character was to understand her power and her place with the X-Men instead of constantly searching for alternatives or a cure.


Again, you are relying on dialogue when the subtext shows quite differently. Actions speak louder then words. Sorry, but the themes in the movies and Rogue's place do not support your argument.

The fact that you bring up the deleted scene is a perfect example on bad characterization. Her character asked for a cure in the 1st movie. She does not ask for it in the second movie. She has been concentrating on finding alternative ways of having a relationship and proving herself to the X-Men. That is her forward momentum. The 3rd movie reverts her back to how she was in the 2nd movie, thereby undermining what was established in the latter half of the first movie and the entirety of the second. Now, if the 2nd movie had explored her need for physical touch more and then the 3rd movie focused on her crisis with making the decision, then maybe her arc would seem natural. As it is, the character is inconsistent.

But there is no 'alternative way of having a relationship' for Rogue.

She can't touch people without harming them. That's all there is to it. There is no way around that. She and Bobby were trying to deal with it, but unless they had Leech sit in their bedroom while they were going at it, there was no chance she could enjoy an intimate personal life.

You are clinging to a comicbook character you like. And that's fine. Except she is never that way in the movies. This is movie Rogue, who is insecure and remains so throughout the movies (look at her at the end of X2, when she is flying the X-jet) and who wants to be with her boyfriend. In her particular case, the cure does look an attractive option.

She could have decided not to take it, and to fight with them... but she didn't. It can't be changed now, and her choice does make sense within the movie.

 

[Ander]

I personaly think it's logical she took the cure, but that would be logical if she got to knew what her power can really do, saving lifes... I hope to see a new rogue (still anna paquin, cause she is pefect) on x4... to see a transformation

 

[AVP82]

Yes, and in the continuation of the series, she earns her stripes as an X-Men and realizes she can use her "curse" for good. One of the things the X-Men help her do is look at her "curse" as a gift and become proud of it.


Except that the natural progression of the character was to understand her power and her place with the X-Men instead of constantly searching for alternatives or a cure.

I still don't see how you think Rogue's power can benefit other people other than by killing them or absorbing other mutants' powers. It may be useful in battle, but her dilemma lies more on a personal level. It's understandable that she actually thinks of her mutant power is more of a curse rather than a gift because to touch someone is an essential component of life.

She is a lot different than the comics/animated series Rogue where she gains other powers to use for good (e.g. superstrength, flight etc.), but when her sole power is something that is not within her control and has the potential to kill by just a slight physical contact, you don't think her actions are justified??

Even Anna Paquin in an interview struggles to think of how she would use her powers in real life.

 

[Ander]

I also think, they put the scene where she got cured just by one reason and not for being rogue... She is the only main caracter who gets cured because she wanted. mystique and magneto didn't want the cure, and the cure was the main plot,,, they just didn't do it well..they wanted to show us a mutant who decided to get the cure, and the only one who could do that on that script was rogue.. the shame it's not she got cured, it's that they underused her...we don't even see her take it! but for me one of the best scenes was when she got out of the bus, and people was screaming no to the cure, she was Briliant although she was in the movie for about 10 min

 

[skruloos]

But there is no 'alternative way of having a relationship' for Rogue.

She can't touch people without harming them. That's all there is to it. There is no way around that. She and Bobby were trying to deal with it, but unless they had Leech sit in their bedroom while they were going at it, there was no chance she could enjoy an intimate personal life.

Yes. And that is the personal flaw of her character but NOT the one the movies even focused on. Instead, they focused on using her abilities for positive uses.

You are clinging to a comicbook character you like. And that's fine.

Completely wrong. I am not a huge fan of X-Men comics and Rogue is one of my least favorite characters. I am judging the movies purely from the standpoint of the movies.

Except she is never that way in the movies. This is movie Rogue, who is insecure and remains so throughout the movies (look at her at the end of X2, when she is flying the X-jet) and who wants to be with her boyfriend. In her particular case, the cure does look an attractive option.

Sorry but the movies do not support her decision or her explanation. At least, not in an adequate manner. Her trajectory in X2 was not one of dwelling on her curse but rather developing her power to be part of the team. Again, X3 undermines that.

She could have decided not to take it, and to fight with them... but she didn't. It can't be changed now, and her choice does make sense within the movie.

Makes sense? I suppose if you project what you would do in her situation and not rely on what the movies have focused on.

 

[skruloos]

I still don't see how you think Rogue's power can benefit other people other than by killing them or absorbing other mutants' powers. It may be useful in battle, but her dilemma lies more on a personal level. It's understandable that she actually thinks of her mutant power is more of a curse rather than a gift because to touch someone is an essential component of life.

Yes. And the whole reason the X-Men are helping her, in fact is to not see it as a curse but rather as a gift. It is why they call them "gifts" in the movies and not powers.

She is a lot different than the comics/animated series Rogue where she gains other powers to use for good (e.g. superstrength, flight etc.), but when her sole power is something that is not within her control and has the potential to kill by just a slight physical contact, you don't think her actions are justified??

Not within the context of the movies. No. If the movies had specifically focused on this dilemma more instead of working towards her acceptance of her gifts, then yes, you'd have an argument. Unfortunately, that is not the focus of her character arc.

Even Anna Paquin in an interview struggles to think of how she would use her powers in real life.

Again, this movie isn't about real life. It is about what information is given within the movies. The movies should be able to exist on their own merits without having to rely on audience projection.

 

[AVP82]

Yes. And the whole reason the X-Men are helping her, in fact is to not see it as a curse but rather as a gift. It is why they call them "gifts" in the movies and not powers

Xavier also refers to these "gifts" as powers too. But the purpose of the X-men and the school is provide safe haven for mutants to understand and to control their abilities. Rogue can't control her powers, because she is unable to shut them off when she needs to. She also understand her abilities can kill by the slightest physical touch. How exactly is Xavier going to teach Rogue that this is a positive thing? Certainly the movie didn't discuss it, so we are allowed to make inferences.

Not within the context of the movies. No. If the movies had specifically focused on this dilemma more instead of working towards her acceptance of her gifts, then yes, you'd have an argument. Unfortunately, that is not the focus of her character arc.

Not within the context of the movies? What is the focus then? She doesn't accept them based on what I have said.

Again, this movie isn't about real life. It is about what information is given within the movies. The movies should be able to exist on their own merits without having to rely on audience projection.

We are allowed to speculate what would happen if we were faced in such a situation. This helps us to understand the character's dilemmas, which makes it a much more satisfying viewing experience.

 

[Mekleo33]

Howdy

It existed to the tune of about 110 million bucks so far.

Mek

 

[AVP82]

Sorry but the movies do not support her decision or her explanation. At least, not in an adequate manner. Her trajectory in X2 was not one of dwelling on her curse but rather developing her power to be part of the team. Again, X3 undermines that.

Really? She couldn't even kiss Bobby without hurting him. She only used her powers once on Pyro, but the main reason she was part of the team was because she saved the group by flying the X-jet, in which she didn't even used her powers at all!

 

[skruloos]

How exactly is Xavier going to teach Rogue that this is a positive thing? Certainly the movie didn't discuss it, so we are allowed to make inferences.

I think the fact that Rogue helps stop Pyro go psycho on the cops shows how Rogue can use her gifts in a positive way. The fact that Rogue wants to join the X-Men and not just be a student shows she's interested in using her gifts in a positive way.

Not within the context of the movies? What is the focus then? She doesn't accept them based on what I have said.

And you haven't provided adequate evidence and neither did X3. The movies show a character trying to come to grips with her powers and to become a member of a team of people who are using their gifts to help others.

We are allowed to speculate what would happen if we were faced in such a situation. This helps us to understand the character's dilemmas, which makes it a much more satisfying viewing experience.

And you can speculate all you want. But if the story is not providing examples of a characters motivations, then the story is failing at developing that character. Go ahead and speculate all you want. At that point, you are making up assumptions instead of actually understanding the character as written and performed. You are making assumptions as to what the character would do to explain her motivations instead of allowing the story to do so. No matter how you slice it, that is bad character development.

 

[skruloos]

Really? She couldn't even kiss Bobby without hurting him. She only used her powers once on Pyro, but the main reason she was part of the team was because she saved the group by flying the X-jet, in which she didn't even used her powers at all!

Is it? She helped stop Pyro which probably impressed Wolverine and Iceman. She also helped organize the kids in their escape from the mansion also to the knowledge of Wolverine. The X-jet sequence was just what the other X-Men. So she is showing that she is a useful part of the team for her gifts but also without her gifts. In other words, she is becoming a character who can stand on her own and besides the X-Men regardless of her "curse".

 

[AVP82]

I think the fact that Rogue helps stop Pyro go psycho on the cops shows how Rogue can use her gifts in a positive way. The fact that Rogue wants to join the X-Men and not just be a student shows she's interested in using her gifts in a positive way

.

And now you're speculating. What makes you think she's "interested" in her gifts?

And you haven't provided adequate evidence and neither did X3. The movies show a character trying to come to grips with her powers and to become a member of a team of people who are using their gifts to help others.

Actually, we have seen very clearly that she is still struggling to accept with her powers. I don't understand how you cannot see that.

And you can speculate all you want. But if the story is not providing examples of a characters motivations, then the story is failing at developing that character. Go ahead and speculate all you want. At that point, you are making up assumptions instead of actually understanding the character as written and performed. You are making assumptions as to what the character would do to explain her motivations instead of allowing the story to do so. No matter how you slice it, that is bad character development.

It seems like a majority of us understand her motivations of taking the cure, so I don't see how we are making assumptions or misuderstanding Rogue. It seems like you don't understand her at all.

 

[AVP82]

Is it? She helped stop Pyro which probably impressed Wolverine and Iceman. She also helped organize the kids in their escape from the mansion also to the knowledge of Wolverine. The X-jet sequence was just what the other X-Men. So she is showing that she is a useful part of the team for her gifts but also without her gifts. In other words, she is becoming a character who can stand on her own and besides the X-Men regardless of her "curse".

So then her usefulness doesn't necessarily depend on her even using her "gift," so why not get rid of it?

 

[skruloos]

So then her usefulness doesn't necessarily depend on her even using her "gift," so why not get rid of it?

No it doesn't rely on it but it is part of her. Well not any more I guess. In any case, I think you misunderstand my argument. I have no problem with the idea of her taking the cure IF it had been supported by character development in the 3rd movie. The movies themselves were working towards acceptance. It is the difference of character that she was in from X1 to X2. If they had shown a bigger moral dilemma, actually given us other examples of her longing for human contact rather than just fearing Bobby running away with Kitty, then her motivations could be understood without relying on projection from the audience.

 

[AVP82]

No it doesn't rely on it but it is part of her. Well not any more I guess. In any case, I think you misunderstand my argument. I have no problem with the idea of her taking the cure IF it had been supported by character development in the 3rd movie. The movies themselves were working towards acceptance. It is the difference of character that she was in from X1 to X2. If they had shown a bigger moral dilemma, actually given us other examples of her longing for human contact rather than just fearing Bobby running away with Kitty, then her motivations could be understood without relying on projection from the audience.

I understand that point, but the fact that her gift is potentially very dangerous and has no control (what if someone accidentally touches her?), then I think more people would see it as a harmful than helpful. But I agree that the movies should delve into this further. In other posts, I said that I wanted Rogue to have an actual discussion with Xavier, but we never see Rogue actually have a conversation with Xavier at all in any of the three movies. This discussion would help the audience can see both sides of the issue, but that didn't happen unfortuantely.

 

[X-Maniac]

No it doesn't rely on it but it is part of her. Well not any more I guess. In any case, I think you misunderstand my argument. I have no problem with the idea of her taking the cure IF it had been supported by character development in the 3rd movie. The movies themselves were working towards acceptance. It is the difference of character that she was in from X1 to X2. If they had shown a bigger moral dilemma, actually given us other examples of her longing for human contact rather than just fearing Bobby running away with Kitty, then her motivations could be understood without relying on projection from the audience.

The announcement of a cure stirred something in her. Storm had told her they can't be cured in X1, and again in X3. She was curious about it, who wouldn't be if they had her power. She had been told in X1 that she should never take another mutant's powers, and being able to take people's powers and potentially put them in a coma at the same time is hardly likely to be a motivation for remaining a mutant 'Oh today, I'll touch Charles and be telepathic, tomorrow I'll touch Storm and fly.'

Seeing Kitty able to touch Bobby, and Bobby able to enjoy a girl's contact, was the last straw.

Everyone I know who saw the movie totally got that. It made sense, so I'm not sure what you aren't seeing. It was spelled out as plain as anything. She had been trying to get on with being a mutant, and then -bam - along come a cure, an answer... She is bound to consider it, it is bound to be an option. I cannot see how you cannot see this.

 

[skruloos]

And now you're speculating. What makes you think she's "interested" in her gifts?

Isn't part of the point of Xavier's school "understanding your gifts"?

It seems like a majority of us understand her motivations of taking the cure, so I don't see how we are making assumptions or misuderstanding Rogue. It seems like you don't understand her at all.

And so far no one has been able to explain her motivations without resorting to speculation and assumptions based on their personal feelings and not actually by what is shown by the specific scenes in the film.

 

[AVP82]

Isn't part of the point of Xavier's school "understanding your gifts"?

"Understand" is not the same thing as "Interested in". If she understands her power, and I think she does, that does not mean she is interested in using it.

And so far no one has been able to explain her motivations without resorting to speculation and assumptions based on their personal feelings and not actually by what is shown by the specific scenes in the film.

Does it have to be that literal??

Scene 1: Interaction with Bobby...not being able to get close to him "without killing him"

Scene 2: Interaction with Logan: doesn't think Logan understand "what it is like not to be able to touch someone, a kiss, a handshake etc." She wants all of those things!!

Those were the two that stand out in this movie. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

 

[TheOnlyWay]

Rogue is too potent to be cured permanently. Like Magneto, her cure will be temporary. And so will Mystiques!

If she were to remain cured that would get me incredibly disappointed. I would want to see her more in a more self-accepting light, one who is not weak and prone to conformity. The idea of mutancy is non-conformity in many respects.

 

[skruloos]

Seeing Kitty able to touch Bobby, and Bobby able to enjoy a girl's contact, was the last straw.

And how is that not doing it for Bobby?

Everyone I know who saw the movie totally got that. It made sense, so I'm not sure what you aren't seeing. It was spelled out as plain as anything. She had been trying to get on with being a mutant, and then -bam - along come a cure, an answer... She is bound to consider it, it is bound to be an option. I cannot see how you cannot see this.

Oh it was spelled out exactly why she took it. It just happened to contradict what she says and the warning Wolverine gave her.

 

[skruloos]

"Understand" is not the same thing as "Interested in". If she understands her power, and I think she does, that does not mean she is interested in using it.

Ah. So that would conflict with her wanting to remain at the school and joining the X-Men.

Does it have to be that literal??

Scene 1: Interaction with Bobby...not being able to get close to him "without killing him"

Scene 2: Interaction with Logan: doesn't think Logan understand "what it is like not to be able to touch someone, a kiss, a handshake etc." She wants all of those things!!

Those were the two that stand out in this movie. I don't know how else to explain it to you.

The problem is that what is said contradicts what is shown. Quite simple. You can depend on her dialogue. The actions speak louder than words and the subtext shows differently. And simply, it is not explored properly to explain her motivation.

 

[AVP82]

And how is that not doing it for Bobby?


Oh it was spelled out exactly why she took it. It just happened to contradict what she says and the warning Wolverine gave her.

It might not even be for Bobby, but to see another person touching another human being is something that she wants for herself, not necessarily to be with Bobby.

Therefore, that does not contradict the warning Wolverine had given her.

 

[skruloos]

It might not even be for Bobby, but to see another person touching another human being is something that she wants for herself, not necessarily to be with Bobby.

Then to emphasize this, they should have shown her seeing other people touch each other and being jealous of that instead of focusing on her fearing Bobby was running off with Kitty.

Therefore, that does not contradict the warning Wolverine had given her.

Again, what is actually shown in the movie contradicts it. You are making assumptions about her state of mind instead of going by what the movie specifically shows us.

 

[AVP82]

Ah. So that would conflict with her wanting to remain at the school and joining the X-Men.

She remains at the school, because her parents supposedly does not accept her as a being mutant. You must think of Rogue on a more personal level, not necessarily as part of a crime-fighting team in which she "joins". That's why she's not in the final battle. That's her motivation for wanting the cure.