Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More
From
Miscellaneous Superhero Movies
​

This thread is open to the discussion of all superhero properties not listed in the Thread List below, as I have branched out into several property-specific ones so we can better keep track of people’s posts and have more linear and organized discussions about each superhero property.

Also listed below are several posts links from the original Haven that pertain to the subject of this particular thread. It is not a complete list, and anyone who wants to link or re-post something they thought was interesting is welcome to do so.
I recommend reading these posts before posting your own ideas, but it’s not a requirement.
I ask that while people can respectfully point it out, they not act harshly when a user makes a new post that contains material that is similar to what has already been posted in either the original Haven or this particular thread.

This thread is dedicated to the brainstorming and discussion of ideas pertaining to how faithful and optimally entertaining superhero movie adaptations could have, or still could, be made. This is also a place for analyzing what has come before and how that could be a basis for ideal film adaptations of the various superhero properties we know and love, more closely based on the source material.

I think certain movies already made could be taken as a basis for fully faithful adaptations, as in a large portion of a particular movie could be left mostly the way it is with specific alterations to what held that movie back from being better. Even some of the obvious changes to the various mythos could be used to enhance the story or execution of an adaptation that could still be considered faithful by discriminating, analytical and demanding fans. If there hasn’t been a movie made of the superhero(es) discussed in this thread, then ignore the last two sentences.
I want to discuss the theoretical possibilities present in both the original source material and the existing adaptations, and how those could be put into new productions that completely nail both the "spirit" and the essential details of these mythologies. Plots, script, character traits, costumes, even casting decisions are open for discussion. This is ultimately for the purpose of creative discussions for their own sake, although I would be delighted if it inspired high-quality, faithful fan scripts beings written (Dragon has written some excellent Spider-Man screenplays, for example).

All other non-comics media are valid topics as well (live action and animated TV series, video games, etc.). Again, it's fine to use ideas from existing products (casting, plot elements, dialogue, props/effects, etc.) as a basis or part of an idea for a "new" product if the new product would be significantly more faithful, even though it would be implausible for a rebooted franchise (a la "Batman Begins") to include these same elements in reality; reality is mostly irrelevant here.
It is unlikely that these ideas will lead to a better movie being made; not unless one of the thread participants ends up being a big-time producer or someone important in the business reads this thread. This is for us, the fans. We spend a good deal of time on the Hype, and it really doesn't accomplish much in terms of tangible results anyway. That's okay, since the point of this forum, presumably, is for the purpose of imparting information, critiquing superhero products, and discussing ideas. This is for people who are intelligent, imaginative, and passionate and have ideas to share conforming to the stated topic.

Ground Rules:

• If you believe that the movie adaptations already made are perfect or good enough and do not need revision or analysis, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread, so be on your way and don’t intrude where you have nothing to offer. Do not waste our time with conformist platitudes. Do not come in here and defend film decisions that are considered flaws by contributing posters, unless you have another aspect in mind that does need changing and post an equal or greater portion of text discussing a criticism or suggesting an idea for an existing or hypothetical product that is very faithful to the source material.

• We’re here to talk amongst ourselves, and anyone who disagrees with the spirit of this thread is in no way obligated to read any of the content herein or reply. Any of the behavior I described above that occurs here is trolling, pure and simple. This thread isn’t about argument and hostility. The only personal criticism that should occur is that which is directed toward the producers (meaning anyone involved in the production in any way) of preexisting superhero products, and even that should be kept reasonably limited, since everyone who truly belongs in this thread is assumed to have some level of disagreement with said producers, sometimes to the point of resentment. We need not spend excessive time on blaming them for their failings, but don’t hold back your true feelings on those screw-ups either. Disagreement between rule-abiding posters is fine. Just keep it civil and within the guidelines. Or else.
  
  
• Nobody is allowed to use terms like “fanboy,” “nerd,” “purist,” “hater,” or anything like that in a derogatory manner toward other posters or comic fans in general in this thread. The word "whining" and the like-- unless used with regard to a character in a movie, comic book or TV show (ex. “Spider-Man was quite the whiner...”)—is forbidden, as is “nitpicking,” and anything else intended to bully anyone into complacency and acceptance of existing products. The phrase “impossible standards” and anything to the effect of “movies and comics are different mediums, so there have to be changes,” “the general audience will not accept the same things comics fans will,” and “people want to see realism,” if not accompanied by a massive amount of faithful and potentially marketable ideas meant to compensate or work around these alleged “facts,” are also strictly forbidden.

• It is okay to suggest minor deviations from the source material for this topic, as long as the majority of the ideas you put forth—or are simply replying to and agree with—are consistent with the source material and/or significantly more faithful than previous existing adaptations.

• Please do not include concepts based on Marvel's Ultimate Universe that differ greatly from the real Marvel Universe (616). I realize this is largely subjective, so I'll have to shoulder the terrible burden of deciding what is "faithful enough;" I'll try not to be capricious about it.*

*That last rule was added on 6/03/06, so contributors who began sharing concepts that are overall strongly based on the Ultimate Universe prior to that may continue to further develop them (example: The Question proposed a movie for 'The Ultimates' on 6/02/06, so that, as a movie or a multi-film franchise, gets a free pass forevermore). Other posters should not start posting that type of material, or rather they should be aware that I will address it and judge the content acceptable or unacceptable. Thanks for bearing with me.

• Do not belittle classic superhero or villain costumes. Do not use the word "panties" to describe those shorts that some heroes wear over their tights. It's fine to describe a costume as "tights" as long as they actually are and you aren't belittling anything. It's not okay to use the word "Spandex" to describe a costume from the comics that is not actually made of it, unless you're suggesting that Spandex, Lycra, etc. be used in the production of the movie, or maybe suggesting Neoprene or something else over it. Using the term "gay" in any derogatory sense whatsoever in this thread will result in an immediate report to a moderator, without warning, whether or not you've read this.

Again, it’s okay to disagree with a person’s criticism of a movie if you have another one to share, but do not post remarks about an existing or real-life upcoming film if you have no significant complaints about any of the productions being discussed.

I hope the guidelines are clear. Everyone is welcome to contribute or comment, as long as they follow the rules and don’t make any criticisms that are not relevant to the thread. You either belong here or you don’t, and that choice is up to you , so have respect enough to let the environment herein reflect the title of this thread.
Anyone who violates the rules or causes trouble will be promptly reported.

Thank you for your cooperation.


It is recommended, but not strictly required, that you supply a unique title at the beginning of each new post, especially when it isn’t a reply to another’s post. This will help in identifying the topic of each new post at a glance and finding specific posts with the Hype’s search engine. You can resend older posts in the appropriate thread and add titles to them.

Examples:

• “Hunter Rider’s Iron Man concept #1”
• “Herr Logan’s ‘Batman: Dark Knight Detective’ video game,”
• “Everyman’s Captain America movie series concept #1”
• “Zev’s Daredevil TV Show concept”
• “Logan & Zaphod’s Batman movie series concept.”

Welcome to the Safe Haven. Enjoy!


Here are a few posts from the original thread to check out. Make sure to check the quoted portions, as several of these posts are two-for-one deals (which is why so many of mine are here, because I almost always reply to people’s posts and frequently use quotes from other posts). Also, most of these links lead to single post pages, but if you open those pages and click on the thread title link in the upper right corner, it will take you to that post in the full thread, where you can see what came before and afterward. If I’ve confused you and you need help navigating the links, just ask.



All right, we've got several new Safe Haven threads up. This thread will heretofore be designated as a Miscellaneous Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More. Everything that doesn't pertain to the subject listed below should be discussed in here.

BATMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

X-MEN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

SPIDER-MAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

SUPERMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

FANTASTIC FOUR: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More




Here are some examples of what kind of discussion belongs in this particular thread from here on out, as well as reference material for people who are inclined to post about certain topics:

MISCELLANEOUS SAFE HAVEN POSTS

General Philosophy Haven Posts
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6249949&postcount=9
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6250396&postcount=11
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6255136&postcount=21
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...16#post7525116
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...30#post7530630
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...48#post7535748
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...92#post7730392
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...84#post7731584
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...67#post7771667
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...66#post7879366

Black Panther
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...50#post7176550

Deathstroke
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...96#post7944596

Hulk Haven Posts
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6261904&postcount=43

Silver Surfer
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6359582&postcount=186
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6600230&postcount=282
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6600998&postcount=284

Teen Titans
http://www.superherohype.com/forums/...09#post7432809



"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

--George Bernard Shaw, Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"

 

[TheSaintofKillers]

Heh, I like that thread! I'll support it with something later on, when i'll have more time.

Later.

 

[Langoth]

Jeeze... I don't really know where to start.

However I will be here enough of the time I guess.

 

[Anla'shok]

Welcome back Herr Logan.

I think the effect the more demanding of us have on change, is a slow but building process. When I was a child there was no such thing as the internet, but I can safely say that no one I knew used phrases like "Faithfull to the source material" or "True to the spirit of the characters." when comic book characters were brought to the screens big or small. That Producers and Directors make an effort to at least give the illusion that they care about such things is a testament to pesky individuals such as ourselves.
The question is how long before we as a society gain the same level of respect for this artform as places like Japan have for theirs? I certainly don't want to be old and grey before these books are shown the proper respect they deserve. That's it for now, but here's my future hit list on topics I plan to address.

• Superhero Costumes: Why should Homo Superior give a crap about our
clothing taboos?

• Daredevil: Why the Director's cut is irrelevant in it's suck factor.

• The Fantastic Four: Never really read them, and why the film
makes me not want to read them.

• Wolverine: You call that a berserker rage?

 

[Herr Logan]

Welcome back Herr Logan.

I think the effect the more demanding of us have on change, is a slow but building process. When I was a child there was no such thing as the internet, but I can safely say that no one I knew used phrases like "Faithfull to the source material" or "True to the spirit of the characters." when comic book characters were brought to the screens big or small. That Producers and Directors make an effort to at least give the illusion that they care about such things is a testament to pesky individuals such as ourselves.
The question is how long before we as a society gain the same level of respect for this artform as places like Japan have for theirs? I certainly don't want to be old and grey before these books are shown proper respect they deserve. That's it for now, but here's my future hit list on topics I plan to address.

• Superhero Costumes: Why should Homo Superior give a crap about our
clothing taboos?

• Daredevil: Why the Director's cut is irrelevant in it's suck factor.

• The Fantastic Four: Never really read them, and why the film
makes me not want to read them.

• Wolverine: You call that a berserker rage?

Good to see you again, Anla'shok..

I look forward to seeing your further thoughts on those topics, and to inevitably, instinctively ranting to that effect as a follow-up response, as is my way.

 

[Boom]

Very good thread idea, in my honest opinion.

You'll definitely be seeing more of me in here.

 

[Herr Logan]

Very good thread idea, in my honest opinion.

You'll definitely be seeing more of me in here.

Glad to hear it, Boom.



Everybody: I'm going to post something I wrote a few weeks ago in a moment, and it's pretty big (because long-windedness is a virtue, or so I was told once...). Anyone who had their own thoughts to share unrelated to my next post-- just like Anla'shok is planning to do-- should go ahead and post them, and everyone should feel free to respond to whichever batch of ideas they want in whatever order.
I'm hoping that a thread as widely inclusive as this won't become too cluttered or confusing. If it does, we can divide it up into property-specific threads in their respective forums, but I'm hoping that for a while we can hide out in the Misc. Comics Films where there's less likelihood of an outside attack.
Just be sure that if you respond to a particular person or post that you cite either the post or poster in a quote bubble, even if you don't quote the entire previous post.

 

[Herr Logan]

Were the world fortunate enough that I'd be the one in charge of creating a new Spider-Man franchise, this is how it would go:

Movie 1
Relatively brief origin (as in, it sounds long-winded in writing, but it's brief in final film editing), which includes the introduction of Ben and May Parker, Flash Thompson, Liz Allen, and that radioactive demon-creature at the science symposium. Peter would test his skills in a wrestling ring for cash (and keep his mask on throughout the entire outing) and then have an agent set him up with a TV stunt demo in a few weeks (which he'll perform in full costume, and he'll never take his mask off in plain sight, and he'll build his God damn web-shooters!) where afterward, Peter gets his check but still lets the thief get away out of sheer apathy and arrogance. At this point, we could either have him kill Ben in a home invasion or go with the car-jacking, as long as Peter wasn't deliberately letting the thief go out of a grudge against the fight promoter. Peter hears that the cops have cornered the killer in an abandoned warehouse and goes after him in full Spidey garb. He beats him up, finds out who it is, keeps his God damn mask on, and the burglar is lowered down to street level in a web-net for the police to collect, alive but beaten up pretty badly. Peter learns responsibility.

Dr. Otto Octavius, a brilliant but arrogant and perpetually unpleasant man uses a tentacle harness that plugs into his spine and is assisted by an artificially intelligent computer, but the AI has no possibility of taking over his mind, or even controlling the tentacles in opposition to Otto's mental commands (until Parker finds a way to make it go crazy and attack Ock himself, probably in a later film, when George Stacy gets killed). Octavius blows up his lab and the machine is bonded to him. When he wakes up, he attacks the doctors who are trying to separate him from his invention and holds the hospital hostage.

Spider-Man can't cash his check from the TV studio because he isn't a legal citizen, so the surviving Parkers are left without significant income. Peter realizes that after appearing on TV and having stopped several petty crimes that grabbed the media's attention, Spider-Man is a profitable celebrity, so he decides to put his amatuer photographer skills (it's a hobby of his, along with complex chemical engineering and gadgetry) gets a job at the Daily Bugle with the intention of taking pictures of himself, where he meets the irascible J. Jonah Jameson, the patient and avuncular Joe Robertson, and the mousy yet beautiful Betty Brant. Peter makes a deal with Jameson that he'll deliver regular pics of Spider-Man and Jonah won't ask how he got them. Peter turns on his newfound charm and Betty becomes his girlfriend after a week or two. Throughout the movie, there will be multiple brief scenes in which Betty will express her fear and disapproval regarding Peter’s dangerous line of work (chasing vigilantes and taking close-range pictures of superhumans in deadly battles). Peter needs the money and expresses that he likes the thrill of what he does, which is really referring to the thrills he gets as Spider-Man without giving away anything. He’ll have a voice-over monologue through much of the movie, and he’ll make it quite clear that, while he’s heavily burdened by the responsibility of Spider-Man and stressed about having to stretch himself so thin and disappoint various people as a result, he loves being Spider-Man for the thrills as much as for the sense of virtue.
Petty crimes are stopped by Spider-Man, many a quip is made, and there should be at least one cameo with a high-level villain that lends himself more toward fantastic battles than master plans and intricate psychodramas, such as the Vulture or Electro. This character would be portrayed just as he is in the comics (aside from some minor adjustments in the costumes), but their origins are not explored in any detail whatsoever. The battle would be full of amazing maneuvers and verbal sparring as well.

Peter is still attending high school, mouthing off to an enraged Flash Thompson and tutoring Liz Allen in one of her classes (he's stretching himself pretty thin, his hero complex driving him to jump into increasing commitments before he's really thought it through). Flash is a huge Spider-Man fan, and he starts a fan club that only a few people join, and those are his friends and a few kids that are just afraid of him. May keeps trying to set Peter up with Mary Jane Watson (Anna Watson would make a cameo, telling May about her niece), even though he's already got a girlfriend and she's already jealous enough that he's tutoring Liz. We'd see a very brief shot of him tutoring her and her trying to flirt with him. Mary Jane Watson would make a cameo appearance when both Liz and Betty come looking for Peter at his house (acting quite catty when seeing each other). Mary Jane is drinking tea with May and her Aunt Anna, and both Liz and Betty feel pretty crappy after seeing MJ and realizing that her aunt and Peter's aunt see each other all the time and are urging MJ to meet Peter ("It's a shame you have to go so soon, Mary Jane, I so wanted you to finally meet Peter," or some such).

Spider-Man shows up at the hospital where Dr Octopus (wearing scrubs at this point) is holding the place hostage (all of these scenes I'm describing are inter-spliced, I'm just arranging the paragraphs based on subject matter, not strict scene-by-scene linear continuity) and not only gets the crap kicked out of him but humiliated. In addition to amazing Spidey vs. Ock action and typical repartee, we'd see the famous shot of Octavius b1tch-slapping Spider-Man while holding him helpless with his tentacles, saying the line quoted in Doc Ock's (the Hype poster) signature. He'd toss Spidey to the proverbial curb and escape, leaving the city of New York in a panic. Doc Ock will find himself a group of mercenary goons and terrorize them into serving him. He's going to build an enormous, destructive machine and hold the entire city for ransom. When we see him in his abandoned warehouse lair (where else, right?), directing his underlings in their moving equipment around, he's wearing a white three-piece suit (with a large portion of the back cut out, to accommodate Ock's new built-in hardware) and smoking a cigar. He orders his thugs about in a friendly way-- almost too friendly. He's just waiting for someone to make a mistake so he can instantly fall into a rage and punish them. Doc Ock is now a full-blown antisocial bastard who takes pleasure in putting on a charming demeanor to lure his perceived inferiors into a vulnerable position.
I haven't planned out the mechanics of his big scary plan or how exactly Spider-Man will pick up his trail-- wait, I know that last part... he'll use a homemade tracing device with a signal that registers on a monitor approximately the size of a PDA (hmm, I wonder where I've seen this before). Anyway, with various interspersed scenes of Peter's life at home, school and the Daily Bugle, he comes upon Ock's insidious plot and tracks him to his lair, beating up his goons and beating Ock to the point where he violently brings the warehouse down on everyone and escapes while Spider-Man saves the lives of Ock's thugs.

Ock's next move is to take out Spider-Man for good so he won't be a nuisance anymore. He climbs up the side of the Daily Bugle building, smashes a large hole through the wall of the floor where Jonah’s office is, and orders Jonah to print a challenge to Spider-Man on page one. Jonah's too prideful to take orders from violent, psychopathic cyborgs, and tells Ock to go crawl back under his rock. Ock grabs Betty Brant and says that if Jonah doesn't set up a showdown with Spider-Man and tell the police not to show up (it's a crazy demand, I know, but it's the kind of arrogant demand Ock would make, and he's also basically expecting people to disobey him, which in his mind gives him justification to be as violent as he pleases in response to their insolence), he’ll crush Jonah’s secretary into pulp with his newly acquired arms. Jonah gives in at this, and Ock makes his exit. This “damsel in distress” plot device is right from the comics and is actually logical within the story (considering that Ock is brazen enough to pull such a move when the odds of getting away with it are ridiculous).

Spider-Man takes the challenge and comes upon a small army of law enforcement agents monitoring Octavius and his hostage. He tells them that he’s got to go in alone if Betty is to survive, and they clearly don’t trust him, due as much in part by Jonah’s relentless editorials against Spider-Man as the obvious fact that he’s a metahuman vigilante who can’t be controlled. Still, they agree to give him a window of time to take care of business, since they know they’ll at least need a distraction to get a decent shot at Ock, since Ock has proven more than a match for guns and gas grenades (the detecting and deflecting of bullets could be a function of the AI in the machine, since Ock himself could hardly calculate multiple bullet trajectories in his own mind while completing other tasks at once, even if he is a genius). Spider-Man goes in and has a magnificent battle with Doc Ock in which he never once loses his mask, and beats him, leaving him unconscious and heavily webbed up for the police. Betty Brant is freaked out about the entire experience. Betty confronts Peter a few days later and says that now more than ever she requires stability and safety in her life and cannot stay involved with someone who willingly endangers himself by chasing superpowered maniacs like Spider-Man (!!) and Dr. Octopus. Peter knows that he can’t give up being Spider-Man, and he knows he can’t ever tell Betty who he truly is, since she can’t handle him being a crime/action photographer, much less the vigilante who’s actually putting himself directly in harm’s way. And he still needs to make money to support himself and Aunt May. He tells Betty that they’re through. It is through Betty—a girl who is pretty and nice, but not someone Peter is madly in love with—that we get the message that Peter can’t really have a normal love life, no matter how hard he tries to cover all the bases.

So, that ending is depressing, but not nearly as heavy-handed and in no way some cheesy, sappy bastardization of the comics, and the story in total would be chock full of dialogue and inner monologue intended to entertain the audience instead of trying to wring their hearts out like soggy washcloths. Peter would be in his Spider-Man costume at the very least 2/5 of the time he’s on screen, and likely more, even if he’s not performing amazing action the whole time. Both personas would be interesting, and the supporting cast doesn’t get watered down. The movie I envision would be about 2.5 hours in length, and regardless of how much of a strain on one’s attention span reading this summary is, the end product could easily fit all the events mentioned and more in that timeframe. Believe it.

Movie #2’s summary is still pending, but in involves Peter going to college, meeting Gwen Stacy, George Stacy, Harry Osborn, and a Green Goblin who doesn’t kill any girlfriends or get killed at the climax, yet!

 

[Cullen]

Here are just a couple of random thoughts echoing through that vast empty chasm I call a mind. Bear in mind that when I use "hero" I'm doing so in a gender neutral sort of way:
________________________________________
Screw starting with the origins of the heroes - Get to the point of the movie (superhero action) quick. In medias res isn't just a trio of randomly slapped together Latin words; it's a way of life.

There are exceptions, of course; the Hulk, for instance, needs a bit of normalcy for the character to work. But for most comic book characters, it simply isn't necessary to dwell on where they came from. Mention it, perhaps show a bit of it, make sure the audience is aware of how the characters came to the conclusion that running around town in a Halloween suit was a good idea, but keep it to a bare, bare minimum.
________________________________________
You don't need to use the big guns in the first film - The Joker doesn't have to be the first Batman movie (obviously), Ock and Green Goblin can wait, and the Hulk doesn't need any opponent except the army, at least at first. I'd use a second stringer. A Vulture, an Electro, a Scarecrow, a Namor (or, if you prefer, a Mole Man), what have you, who have you got.

The reason for doing this is to set up the hero or heroes, give a bit of foundation to stand on with audience members not as familiar with them. Every other film should be with a bigger threat than the one before.

Characters such as Wilson Fisk, Doctor Doom, Green Goblin, Lex Luthor and the like should be treated like Darth Vader was in the original Star Wars series. Manipulators, working from the shadows, only rarely directly confronting the heroes until the last movie's final conflict. Which, purely by my talents as a writer and not by coincidence at all, leads me to my next point.
________________________________________
Have a destination in mind right from the get go - Plan for more than one film. Again, look at Star Wars. The first movie had a perfectly acceptable beginning, middle, and end. Sequels weren't necessary, but the potential was there. Thanks to some degree with the presence of Darth Vader.

With Spider-man, I'd introduce the Green Goblin. Probably not in costume, and probably kept to the shadows (say as the boss Vulture is reluctantly working for, or as someone Electro is trying to impress), but with growing importance until the third film, where, tired of the meddling wallcrawler, he comes out for a final reckoning.

In the same vein, I'd introduce M.J. with the first film, build up the romance in the second, and throw her off the bridge in the last. Oh, I know the purists would want Gwen for the job, but this is my series, damn it, not theirs. I'd be setting up a Gwen Stacy relationship for the second series of movies. The girl's got plenty of untapped potential, far more than M.J. ever had.

(Of course, I hate M.J. with a fiery, burning passion that rivals a supernova, so I might be a bit bias. But only a wee bit)

By the time everything is said and done, the whole series should tell one complete story, with each part functioning as a whole. Sticking to the comic's history shouldn't be a major concern; sticking with who the characters were and how they would act in any given situation would be.

if you want total accuracy to what happened in the comics, you should be making a cartoon or television series. You'd have more space to do what needs doing.

(At least, that's what I would do. In fact, I'd rather do a cartoon series. And in it, I'd throw M.J. off the bridge and go with Gwen, Betty, or Felica. Because, frankly, at this juncture in time and space, M.J. is the one the fans care the most about, and her death would be far more devastating. That's the only way to maintain the power that "The Green Goblin's Last Stand" had.)
________________________________________
Remember the superheroes' heritage - That heritage is the pulp adventures and the 40's serials. Lots of action, a wee bit over the top, with plenty of humor and style. The plot doesn't just move, it sprints along to its climax. Which is why in medias res is so important.
________________________________________
Well, that's it. No more. I praise anyone who's waded through all of this rambling and remained awake. I threaten everyone with more of the same if and when more pops into my pretty little head.

(why can't my goddamn novel flow out this easy... been working on it longer... argh... )

 

[Hunter Rider]

Marks thread point*
great thread Herr,i shall be back later today for a full posting session
welcome back

 

[The Lizard]

Remember the superheroes' heritage - That heritage is the pulp adventures and the 40's serials. Lots of action, a wee bit over the top, with plenty of humor and style. The plot doesn't just move, it sprints along to its climax. Which is why in medias res is so important.

Faithfulness to the source medium is a very important, yet ever shifting concept that can not only make or break a superhero flick, but also handle the seemingly minor inconsistancies that add up to frustration and abuse of the "suspension of disbelief" excuse.

Admittedly, there are elements of various superhero mythos that existed just fine in the four-color world of silver age comics, but need a little more explanation in today's world where the public has an increased knowledge of concepts like the effects of radiation, genetic mutation and physiological stress points. What is frustrating is the ease with which a throwaway line or a 30-second montage could lower any perceived "unacceptable disbelief", instead of revamping the entire concept or introducing too much extraneous elements that are not part of the character's recognized story.

Organic webshooters are of course the most obvious example of this, but on a larger scale the problem seems to be the lack of understanding about where the happy medium lies between remaining faithful to a comic concept dear to generations of comic readers and getting non-comic reading moviegoers who don't give a damn about continuity to accept what they're seeing within the realm of the reality set up within the film.
Thus, a throwaway line about Peter Parker inheiriting science equipment and formula notes from his scientist dad (one of the few new elements that the Ultimate Spider-Man comic did right), coupled with a later 30-60 second montage of Peter building and testing webshooters and discovering that the webs disintegrate in a half-hour would give us all we need to accept the presence of the mech shooters in the 21st-century movie universe.
- Quite a bit more acceptable under "suspension of disbelief" rules than Peter whipping up a high-tech Spidey costume without making any wrestling money first, or Norman's one-man glider lifting a ten-ton cable car.

The funny thing is, you can sometimes tell when some silly idea hatched by a script-committee has gone too far, and then some writer scrambles to restore some semblance of the source material. I really got that impression with the way Doctor Doom was presented in the FF movie. They changed his origin, made him a businessman, made him obsess over Sue Storm, made him control electricity, made him grow his armor out of his skin --- and then suddenly he wears a metal mask (even though his face was obviously turning to metal already), and ends up on a boat to Latveria. I suppose that last-minute effort to give us the "real" Doom was admirable, but why couldn't it have happened earlier on? Even if Doom had to be on the space station (which he didn't, but let's just keep that modification in place for argument's sake), we could have had Victor launch a reconditioned Russian rocket out of Latveria as a "favor" to Reed since Doom was already a rich and powerful leader. Thus the Latveria connection could have been established early on.

Anyway, my overall point here is that quality scriptwriting and basic application of logic can give us the appropriate balance of comic-style action and fantasy while not compromising 21st-century "movie realism", or that elusive "spirit of the comic" that everyone likes to extoll.

 

[The Joker]

Welcome back Logan.You've been missed

I simply love your ideas on Doctor Octopus for the first movie.So true to the comics and captures the true spirit of all characters involved.

I don't think there is anything I could add to that.It's perfect.But I'll pitch my own ideas for Ock's return later on

 

[The Green Goblin]

I don't think there is anything I could add to that.

Me either. An evil bastard Ock in the first followed by an amnesiac Goblin who doesn't die would be right on target.

Well said from the rest about the mechanical webshooters.

My overall disappointment in Raimi's saga mounts...

 

[Herr Logan]

Here are just a couple of random thoughts echoing through that vast empty chasm I call a mind. Bear in mind that when I use "hero" I'm doing so in a gender neutral sort of way:
________________________________________
Screw starting with the origins of the heroes - Get to the point of the movie (superhero action) quick. In mediasres[/ i] isn't just a trio of randomly slapped together Latin words; it's a way of life.

There are exceptions, of course; the Hulk, for instance, needs a bit of normalcy for the character to work. But for most comic book characters, it simply isn't necessary to dwell on where they came from. Mention it, perhaps show a bit of it, make sure the audience is aware of how the characters came to the conclusion that running around town in a Halloween suit was a good idea, but keep it to a bare, bare minimum.
________________________________________
You don't need to use the big guns in the first film - The Joker doesn't have to be the first Batman movie (obviously), Ock and Green Goblin can wait, and the Hulk doesn't need any opponent except the army, at least at first. I'd use a second stringer. A Vulture, an Electro, a Scarecrow, a Namor (or, if you prefer, a Mole Man), what have you, who have you got.

The reason for doing this is to set up the hero or heroes, give a bit of foundation to stand on with audience members not as familiar with them. Every other film should be with a bigger threat than the one before.

Characters such as Wilson Fisk, Doctor Doom, Green Goblin, Lex Luthor and the like should be treated like Darth Vader was in the original Star Wars series. Manipulators, working from the shadows, only rarely directly confronting the heroes until the last movie's final conflict. Which, purely by my talents as a writer and not by coincidence at all, leads me to my next point.
________________________________________
Have a destination in mind right from the get go - Plan for more than one film. Again, look at Star Wars. The first movie had a perfectly acceptable beginning, middle, and end. Sequels weren't necessary, but the potential was there. Thanks to some degree with the presence of Darth Vader.

With Spider-man, I'd introduce the Green Goblin. Probably not in costume, and probably kept to the shadows (say as the boss Vulture is reluctantly working for, or as someone Electro is trying to impress), but with growing importance until the third film, where, tired of the meddling wallcrawler, he comes out for a final reckoning.

In the same vein, I'd introduce M.J. with the first film, build up the romance in the second, and throw her off the bridge in the last. Oh, I know the purists would want Gwen for the job, but this is my series, damn it, not theirs. I'd be setting up a Gwen Stacy relationship for the second series of movies. The girl's got plenty of untapped potential, far more than M.J. ever had.

(Of course, I hate M.J. with a fiery, burning passion that rivals a supernova, so I might be a bit bias. But only a wee bit)

By the time everything is said and done, the whole series should tell one complete story, with each part functioning as a whole. Sticking to the comic's history shouldn't be a major concern; sticking with who the characters were and how they would act in any given situation would be.

if you want total accuracy to what happened in the comics, you should be making a cartoon or television series. You'd have more space to do what needs doing.

(At least, that's what I would do. In fact, I'd rather do a cartoon series. And in it, I'd throw M.J. off the bridge and go with Gwen, Betty, or Felica. Because, frankly, at this juncture in time and space, M.J. is the one the fans care the most about, and her death would be far more devastating. That's the only way to maintain the power that "The Green Goblin's Last Stand" had.)
________________________________________
Remember the superheroes' heritage - That heritage is the pulp adventures and the 40's serials. Lots of action, a wee bit over the top, with plenty of humor and style. The plot doesn't just move, it sprints along to its climax. Which is why in medias res is so important.
________________________________________
Well, that's it. No more. I praise anyone who's waded through all of this rambling and remained awake. I threaten everyone with more of the same if and when more pops into my pretty little head.

(why can't my goddamn novel flow out this easy... been working on it longer... argh... )

Still looking for a job that'll help pay for those meds you so desperately need, eh, Cullen?
You'll get there. I got faith in ya, big guy.

Well, what you've done-- directly or indirectly-- is challenge my idea, which is good. That's what we should be doing. Here's my defense:

The goal here is to be strike the best balance of faithfullness, general entertainment value and artistic quality as possible in a superhero adaptation, while also giving some consideration as to marketing value with the so-called "general audience." I'm not going to put a lot of time into explaining how my ideas on Spider-Man will stack up against the expectations of the general audience because I'm already convinced that Spider-Man done properly is the most likely out of all the superhero frachises to sit well with both fans and casual viewers.

First of all, let me say that I have indeed thought ahead and taken the option of several films into account; in fact, that's the only way I have thought about it.
The reason I want to present the villains line-up the way I've chosen is not only to be faithful to the comics. I believe that faithfulness to the Spider-Man continuity is the best bet for a story, because I truly believe it was brilliantly done back in the day.
The thing about Doc Ock and the Green Goblin showing up in the first two movies is that Ock was definitely not a shadowy behind-the-scener (new term coined, and I want a quarter every time someone else uses it; cash and checks accepted) in the beginning, and the Green Goblin isn't a huge, personal threat to Peter Parker (as opposed to just Spider-Man during the workday) until the end of the second movie, where he finds out Peter's identity and then loses his memory and becomes a ticking time-bomb that Peter has to see every once in a while (since he's a family friend at this point). Dr. Octavius gained his new lease on life and fought Spider-Man twice in the course of one issue. I believe the newly created war between Spider-Man and Dr. Octopus can be stretched out to several days or weeks, and it isn't intended to be something hideously sinister as it would be with someone who had a real chance at hurting Spider-Man where it counts (like the Goblin will, later). He gets his new power, he schools Spider-Man in front of God and everybody, he moves on with the intention of proving his badassery (25 cents per use) to the world and making money at the same time, Spider-Man messes everything up and proves himself a threat to Ock, and then there's the showdown that changes Spider-Man's life (because it results in the breakup of Peter and Betty, which teaches Parker yet another lesson in being a superhuman with a conscience that won't quit).

You mentioned that there should be a second-stringer at first, such as the Vulture. I don't know if the Vulture should be described as such (as a non-agenda villain-- someone whose agenda lies with personal revenge and conventional robbery crimes, as opposed to gathering massive power or screwing with people's lives long-term-- and an independent operative, he's A-list, but that whole category is generally less dangerous and scary than an agenda villain like Kingpin and what the Green Goblin later became. The Vulture is the probably the most visually impressive villain in Spider-Man's rogue's gallery when it comes to a cinematic flight (which we've never seen before, but if you have an imagination, you can probably see it in your mind's eye; imagine an aerial battle that includes close-up shots of Spider-Man trailing behind the Vulture on a webline as he flies at top-speed for extended distances), and he isn't the type of villain I personally would choose as the "main villain" of the movie, only because I prefer to use mastermind types like the Green Goblin and Doc Ock or characters that have complex relationships with each other (Kraven and the Chameleon; Spencer Smythe, JJJ and the Scorpion) as the main attraction that spans the entire film. The Vulture is not to be taken lightly, but I personally would use him in a one-time fight (not that he couldn't come back in a later movie for another round, just not more than one in this film) either before Dr. Octopus or in-between fights with Ock.

The way I envision Adrian Toomes in a movie is having him be an elderly but spry old curmudgeon who just got cheated in some serious way by his partner in a company that produces cutting-edge, high-tech machinery. He himself is a brilliant inventor who hasn't been completely forthcoming about what he's capable of or has been building on his own time. Another major theme of this movie series, along with the essentail "power and responsibility" theme, is that of the wonders and dangers of technology, which actually ties into the main theme. Spider-Man was created entirely by accident by technology gone awry, as was Dr. Octopus and the Lizard (if he can be placed in a later movie, probably the one with Kraven), but the Vulture, the Green Goblin, the Shocker, Spencer Smythe, Farley Stillwell (hired by J. Jonah Jameson to biologically alter and cybernetically accessorize MacDonald Gargan) Sergei Kravinov, and the Chameleon all use their technology exactly as intended but with catastrophic results.
Anywa, after very brief scenes of Toomes confronting his partner and being smugly dismissed (basically like how that banker guy dismissed Dr. Doom In Name Only in "Foxtastic Four"), he goes to either his personal laboratory at his company or to his home and digs out a high-tech green flight suit (it would actually look at least vaguely similar to Movie!Goblin's costume in "Spider-Man") complete with collapsable, flexible wings and a (mostly) noise-less flight pack. Here's where a little bit of "realism" is needed: he needs to at the very least wear eye goggles (for obvious reasons), and I think those should be integrated into a helmet-type thing that doesn't hide his entire face and looks something like a combination of the scalp-covering helmet that Black Drago (Vulture II) wore back in the day and the head piece that didn't offer the least bit of real protection that the Vulture wore in the 90's when he figured out how to be young again. This would have a beak-like look in the front, and he should probably also have some kind of transparent mouth guard, maybe even with a voice amplifier so he can shout orders to the people he's robbing and threats to the people he's getting revenge on, and most importantly (for the purposes of the movie), so he can be heard shouting curses (not like R-rated curses, just phrases that are curses in the literal sense) at Spider-Man while they're fighting in the air and moving at high speeds. The helmet should include audio-enhancing equipment and the goggles should have magnifying features so he can spot his prey from far away. It would take less than 5 seconds to impart this information to the audience and no words would have to be uttered or read. Imagination, people. Use it.

Actually, I think it would be best to have the Vulture fight before Ock, because Spider-Man taking on the Vulture is the basis for Peter Parker beginning his relationships with the Bugle staff (Jameson, Robertson and Betty Brant in particular), and it would be best if Spider-Man went into his first fight with Ock feeling very confident. Taking down the Vulture is no easy task, so it makes perfect sense that Spider-Man wouldn't think much of a stationary villain who just woke up out of a coma confined in a smaller space like a hospital interior. And that's why it's so poignant when Doc makes Spidey his b1tch during their first battle. He learns not to underestimate Octavius right then and there. The more I think about all this, the more I see "learning" as a main theme of the franchise, because it always seems Spidey is learning something from each battle and life event that makes him more careful in the future.

Anyway, another main reason why I feel it's fine to bring out the big guns in the first few movies is because I don't plan to get rid of them in their debut films. Doc Ock debuts in movie #1 and comes back in movie #3 to do something horrible (even if unintentionally, or should I say "serendipitously"). The Green Goblin debuts in movie #2, looms in the background of movie #3 as he's supposed to lie dormant in the mind of the seemingly healthy Norman Osborn, and comes back in full force in movie #4, doing something horrible to Peter (very much on purpose) and getting killed in the end. Throughout all of this are Peter's troubles with school, work, girls, family, etc. and several battles with smaller-scale villains like Electro (again, an A-list villain by himself, but a short-sighted thug compared with the visonaries and masterminds that seem to cause the real damage in Peter's life), the Shocker (someone who seems like a joke now, but was a serious powerhouse who schooled Spider-Man soundly in his first appearance), etc. The point is to balance all of these elements to maintain both a cinematic beginning/middle/end structure but also have it be a continuous saga at the same time. It is very true that a cartoon series would be more appropriate for a faithful adaptation of Spider-Man (or any other hero property), but I honestly believe it could be done in film. Spider-Man out of all other heroes could be done faithfully on film in a long-running movie franchise (I'm thinking 6 films, beginning with the origin and Dr. Octopus and ending with Venom and the marriage of Peter Parker to Mary Jane Watson). I find it much more difficult to dream up economically viable, well-organized movie plots in a long-running series for the Batman, X-Men, Fantastic Four and Hulk, and I haven't even put much thought into the Avengers, yet (which is fine, because I don't have as much familiarity with that character property as with the others).

While I personally wouldn't start a Spider-Man movie franchise off in the middle of the action as with a Greek epic (I know what "in medias res" means, too, Mr. Smartypants ), I wouldn't drag out the non-action beginning content like they did in the existing Spider-Man movie. For one thing, all that "all about a girl" crap wouldn't be there. There would be establishing content which would show how Peter relates to his teachers (very briefly), Flash Thompson and Liz Allen (the girl he likes but doesn't go all mushy over, especially since she doesn't just ignore him, she's outright rejected him before and has taken part in the mocking Peter experiences daily) and the school body in general. The point is to fill all of that time up with interesting, entertaining, snappy dialogue that keeps the viewer laughing and the movie coasting at reasonable speed.

*stops car, checks map*
Am I still on topic? Maybe I should ask for directions.

 

[Herr Logan]

Faithfulness to the source medium is a very important, yet ever shifting concept that can not only make or break a superhero flick, but also handle the seemingly minor inconsistancies that add up to frustration and abuse of the "suspension of disbelief" excuse.

Admittedly, there are elements of various superhero mythos that existed just fine in the four-color world of silver age comics, but need a little more explanation in today's world where the public has an increased knowledge of concepts like the effects of radiation, genetic mutation and physiological stress points. What is frustrating is the ease with which a throwaway line or a 30-second montage could lower any perceived "unacceptable disbelief", instead of revamping the entire concept or introducing too much extraneous elements that are not part of the character's recognized story.

Organic webshooters are of course the most obvious example of this, but on a larger scale the problem seems to be the lack of understanding about where the happy medium lies between remaining faithful to a comic concept dear to generations of comic readers and getting non-comic reading moviegoers who don't give a damn about continuity to accept what they're seeing within the realm of the reality set up within the film.
Thus, a throwaway line about Peter Parker inheiriting science equipment and formula notes from his scientist dad (one of the few new elements that the Ultimate Spider-Man comic did right), coupled with a later 30-60 second montage of Peter building and testing webshooters and discovering that the webs disintegrate in a half-hour would give us all we need to accept the presence of the mech shooters in the 21st-century movie universe.
- Quite a bit more acceptable under "suspension of disbelief" rules than Peter whipping up a high-tech Spidey costume without making any wrestling money first, or Norman's one-man glider lifting a ten-ton cable car.

The funny thing is, you can sometimes tell when some silly idea hatched by a script-committee has gone too far, and then some writer scrambles to restore some semblance of the source material. I really got that impression with the way Doctor Doom was presented in the FF movie. They changed his origin, made him a businessman, made him obsess over Sue Storm, made him control electricity, made him grow his armor out of his skin --- and then suddenly he wears a metal mask (even though his face was obviously turning to metal already), and ends up on a boat to Latveria. I suppose that last-minute effort to give us the "real" Doom was admirable, but why couldn't it have happened earlier on? Even if Doom had to be on the space station (which he didn't, but let's just keep that modification in place for argument's sake), we could have had Victor launch a reconditioned Russian rocket out of Latveria as a "favor" to Reed since Doom was already a rich and powerful leader. Thus the Latveria connection could have been established early on.

Anyway, my overall point here is that quality scriptwriting and basic application of logic can give us the appropriate balance of comic-style action and fantasy while not compromising 21st-century "movie realism", or that elusive "spirit of the comic" that everyone likes to extoll.

I knew you'd be on the same page about the balance between faithful recounting of comic book mythology and the applied material presented attractively to the totality of viewers. So many people can't or won't bring themselves to imagine how very quick visuals and seemingly throw-away lines can fill in the blanks and add a smoothness to the wealth of fantastical information being thrown at the audience, but you and many others showing up here definitely get it.
Great to have you on board, Liz.

 

[Herr Logan]

Marks thread point*
great thread Herr,i shall be back later today for a full posting session
welcome back

It's good to be back, guys, and good to see you all still have your imaginations and love of the classic stories and characters intact.

Welcome back Logan.You've been missed

I simply love your ideas on Doctor Octopus for the first movie.So true to the comics and captures the true spirit of all characters involved.

I don't think there is anything I could add to that.It's perfect.But I'll pitch my own ideas for Ock's return later on

Thank ye kindly, Ock. I am very confident that I understand the essence of Dr. Octopus better than most fans on the Hype from my experience as a fan of Spider-Man, a student of criminology and being an arrogant bastard myself, but you not only understand the character better than all of us, you're very familiar with all his mannerisms, greatest lines and moments, etc. Always feel free to comment on what I or anyone else says here and add your ideas, and if you have any specific dialogue buts in mind, share!

Me either. An evil bastard Ock in the first followed by an amnesiac Goblin who doesn't die would be right on target.

Well said from the rest about the mechanical webshooters.

My overall disappointment in Raimi's saga mounts...

That's why we've got little else but back issues and each other to keep alive the joy that is the Spider-Man mythos, since they're not just churning out mediocre movies, they're screwing up the comics as well.

I have ideas about the Green Goblin I haven't gotten into in depth, some of which are very much in line with what "Spider-Man" actually delivered well (I really like the weaponry and transportation technology being created under a military contract and I especially love the idea of the "Goblin formula" being specifically intended as a human performance enhancer for a super soldier, because this is the kind of "realism" that actually enhances the story rather than cheapen it), which does not include that costume, and anything you want to contribute would be most welcome. Setting the theoretical films at 2.5 hours minimum (trust me, if it was made well enough, people-- sheep that they are-- would sit through it... they sat through "Lord of the Rings," and I think quality Spider-Man fiction tops that any day of the week) and giving the heaviest hitters of the Spider-Man rogues gallery two movies in which to create mischief, epic battles and tragedy leaves plenty of room for suggestions from the experts.

 

[Hunter Rider]

Herr your Spiderman movie synopsis is excellent,something along those lines wouldve been an ideal way to start the franchise IMO,I wonder do you think the train sequence from SM-2 could be used in your final ock/spidey showdown ?
I honestly have no ideas to add to your story,i have a few for the way i would do SM-3 but thats for another board,i also have ideas for Iron Man,Daredevil and a batman sequel but i'll wait until this Spiderman disscussion has had more time

 

[Head>On<Collider]

Heh, nice! This thread sure as hell wouldn’t be safe at all within the gates of any movie forum, since people within those country clubs tend to get so gosh darn defensive of the most remote criticism that shed light on their petunias.....
Anyway, part of what I’d like to contribute is how any hard working, caring, goal driven producer can organize a well developed synopsis, script, and directing job that could benefit everyone including the studio. It’s possible...... and a well done movie is a well done movie. Anybody with a functioning brain can recognize a good movie from a bad one, but I feel that too many “professionals’ within the film business tend to over analyze the psychology of film goers because they feel that it’s the best route to go... What I say, is that’s no way to go. All the best directors, for example, are men of vision. When one has vision, they have instinct, and they instinctually know how to shoot scenes and puzzle them all together into a masterpiece.
Having said that, let’s look at the basics... it all begins with writing right? There’s this saying I go by as a musician/songwriter, “If it doesn’t sound good when it’s played on either an 8 track or being strummed on a cheapy acoustic guitar, then it doesn’t belong in the studio...” It’s the same with everything else. Movies cost millions and too many millions of dollars get wasted on poor scripts and lousy stories. The story is the backbone of the whole project and it’s essential in order for the film to even have a fighting chance at being a good one. There are no rules of thumb when it comes to this outside of your basic structures; it’s almost 90% instinct.... well, outside of your basic structures like knowing that each story needs a protagonist, a climax, a beginning, a point of conflict(man vs. self, man vs. nature, man vs. antagonist, etc.) and going on and on....
Anyway, moving along now, let’s look at some of my own likes and dislikes...... in a nutshell, it’s rare for me to like a movie like let’s say, “On Golden Pond” ( ) yet I happen to love that movie (really)... and it was before my time.... which makes a strong point of how a great movie should be timeless.. anyway, if you look at my avvy, you can see that I’m somewhat of a fan for “Gangs of New York” as well as ... yeah... pretty much all of Scorsese’s movies. I think that all directors should learn from his films if they want to learn from the best. His movies have tons of down to earth action sequences even though one would just classify them as violence only... what he does right is carrying out the dramatic influence that flows within his films and it makes his violent scenes much more effective that your average action directors. So to put into context, I think I have a good angle to express the need for any and all of these future comic book adaptations to hold a strong dramatic element that has a powerful climax.
To illustrate my point even clearer, let me introduce to this little dissertation a character that most people may not even know...... Ummm **pulls paper out of raffle hat** the winner is....

John Bravestar aka/ Thunderbird of the Uncanny X-Men.

I believe that any good production crew could make a great movie on his short comic book life with him going out in a blaze of glory if it was done right. If they did his story right, they would be capable of even having the rest of the X-Men as supporting roles and it would work great. The theme could be about how an extraordinary Native American not only copes with having superhuman abilities, but also having to face his pride and how it may have led to his downfall. Not only that, they could do it in a way that illustrates how a simple human emotion can be disastrous when in the hand of one such super-human and how John may have transcended it in the end by being a hero to the rest of the X-Men as well as the world. If done right, the movie could take you into the world of such a sub-secret-society through the eyes of the one central character while expressing the burden Cyclops has being the main leader 2nd in command besides Xavier as well as Cyclops’ relation to Bravestar’s death and the guilt he may hold afterwards.
The movie could begin not necessarily with his childhood as much as it would showing the angst he went through living in a society that doesn’t allow him to be himself, whereas by the end of the story, he finally gets to be himself on top of an aircraft beating it into scrap metal before it expoded....
It can be done and if it can be done with Thunderbird, then it should’ve been done with all the rest that already came out....

 

[Cullen]

Faithfulness to the source medium is a very important, yet ever shifting concept that can not only make or break a superhero flick, but also handle the seemingly minor inconsistancies that add up to frustration and abuse of the "suspension of disbelief" excuse.

Admittedly, there are elements of various superhero mythos that existed just fine in the four-color world of silver age comics, but need a little more explanation in today's world where the public has an increased knowledge of concepts like the effects of radiation, genetic mutation and physiological stress points. What is frustrating is the ease with which a throwaway line or a 30-second montage could lower any perceived "unacceptable disbelief", instead of revamping the entire concept or introducing too much extraneous elements that are not part of the character's recognized story.

Organic webshooters are of course the most obvious example of this, but on a larger scale the problem seems to be the lack of understanding about where the happy medium lies between remaining faithful to a comic concept dear to generations of comic readers and getting non-comic reading moviegoers who don't give a damn about continuity to accept what they're seeing within the realm of the reality set up within the film.
Thus, a throwaway line about Peter Parker inheiriting science equipment and formula notes from his scientist dad (one of the few new elements that the Ultimate Spider-Man comic did right), coupled with a later 30-60 second montage of Peter building and testing webshooters and discovering that the webs disintegrate in a half-hour would give us all we need to accept the presence of the mech shooters in the 21st-century movie universe.
- Quite a bit more acceptable under "suspension of disbelief" rules than Peter whipping up a high-tech Spidey costume without making any wrestling money first, or Norman's one-man glider lifting a ten-ton cable car.

The funny thing is, you can sometimes tell when some silly idea hatched by a script-committee has gone too far, and then some writer scrambles to restore some semblance of the source material. I really got that impression with the way Doctor Doom was presented in the FF movie. They changed his origin, made him a businessman, made him obsess over Sue Storm, made him control electricity, made him grow his armor out of his skin --- and then suddenly he wears a metal mask (even though his face was obviously turning to metal already), and ends up on a boat to Latveria. I suppose that last-minute effort to give us the "real" Doom was admirable, but why couldn't it have happened earlier on? Even if Doom had to be on the space station (which he didn't, but let's just keep that modification in place for argument's sake), we could have had Victor launch a reconditioned Russian rocket out of Latveria as a "favor" to Reed since Doom was already a rich and powerful leader. Thus the Latveria connection could have been established early on.

Anyway, my overall point here is that quality scriptwriting and basic application of logic can give us the appropriate balance of comic-style action and fantasy while not compromising 21st-century "movie realism", or that elusive "spirit of the comic" that everyone likes to extoll.

I agree with all of that. Why are you making a movie about Superhero X when you're going to change everything that made Superhero X X-y? It doesn't always bother me enough to not like a movie, but it does bother me.

I think the characters themselves are the important things, rather than the indiviual stories. However, if you are adapting a story, you damn well better get it right.

 

[SoulManX]

Thank you Logan for the invite here. You know it is sad when the cartoon gets it right but the movie doesn't. X-Men is my example of not a really good movie. Logan was all wrong in that movie and the rest were just bit players. Sabretooth was a complete joke and waste. I waited for the Saban X-Men type Logan and Creed battle. That battle on the screen was utter crap, Singer is not someone I would have picked for this. One day a really director who knows X-Men will create the real X-Men movie we fans want to see.

 

[Head>On<Collider]

SHOWDOWNS
Almost all comic book flicks come packaged with a showdown. I think that a good showdown needs a good history established between the opposing forces, and the showdown needs to be enough of an edge-seater that the audience almost feels the blows and shots and all that.....
I said it before and I say it now, not only does the audience need to feel part of the scene (unless the director chooses to have as a background sequence, thus it wouldn’t be a showdown anyway....), but they need to feel the danger; the menace factor, the need for a hero in the first place. The audience needs to feel the fear and urgency. Let me rephrase that... we the audience, should be kissing the damn ground for our hero by the time the showdown takes place. That’s how important it is for our villains to be done right. If the villain is done wrong, I don’t care what anyone else says, no matter how well the hero is done right, he/she will; never hold up to how much more effective of a hero that hero would be if the villain is done right.
The source material needs to be intact and written as it was originally envisioned... an old tree is only stronger when nurtured (trimmed, pruned, and most of all, NOT TOPPED AS TOPPING KILLS THE TREE). Too many toppings are taking place and not only is it unnecessary, but it’s also ineffective. Take a well established character and you’ll see a established roots behind them. There was a reason these came into being and unless these characters are dead, then there’s no reason to fix that which isn’t broken. So if one effective and creative director and screenwriter can take an easy 10 minuits to overview a character synopsis, they can just as easily put together a well written, well acted, well directed motion picture experience. So, argue that all you want, but my proof is... **Points at movie DrDoom**
Part of a showdown requires good cinematography, and camera shots. I believe that Jack Kirby had this concept down to a tee. Hell, I remember getting to look at some story and I’m sure everyone here doesn’t need to hear anything about that from little ol’ me... so moving along..
I don’t think it’s always necessary for the showdown to also be the climax.... let’s take a scenario where you have two friends having to take stands against each other for deep reasons that are beyond the two’s relationship. That could be the climax as it’s the parting of ways... and the one moment in both individual’s life to pick a side that they will have to live with and stand for. I do, however feel that if the climax can also be the showdown, then we’d have a killer showdown.

 

[Herr Logan]

Heh, nice! This thread sure as hell wouldn’t be safe at all within the gates of any movie forum, since people within those country clubs tend to get so gosh darn defensive of the most remote criticism that shed light on their petunias.....
Anyway, part of what I’d like to contribute is how any hard working, caring, goal driven producer can organize a well developed synopsis, script, and directing job that could benefit everyone including the studio. It’s possible...... and a well done movie is a well done movie. Anybody with a functioning brain can recognize a good movie from a bad one, but I feel that too many “professionals’ within the film business tend to over analyze the psychology of film goers because they feel that it’s the best route to go... What I say, is that’s no way to go. All the best directors, for example, are men of vision. When one has vision, they have instinct, and they instinctually know how to shoot scenes and puzzle them all together into a masterpiece.
Having said that, let’s look at the basics... it all begins with writing right? There’s this saying I go by as a musician/songwriter, “If it doesn’t sound good when it’s played on either an 8 track or being strummed on a cheapy acoustic guitar, then it doesn’t belong in the studio...” It’s the same with everything else. Movies cost millions and too many millions of dollars get wasted on poor scripts and lousy stories. The story is the backbone of the whole project and it’s essential in order for the film to even have a fighting chance at being a good one. There are no rules of thumb when it comes to this outside of your basic structures; it’s almost 90% instinct.... well, outside of your basic structures like knowing that each story needs a protagonist, a climax, a beginning, a point of conflict(man vs. self, man vs. nature, man vs. antagonist, etc.) and going on and on....
Anyway, moving along now, let’s look at some of my own likes and dislikes...... in a nutshell, it’s rare for me to like a movie like let’s say, “On Golden Pond” ( ) yet I happen to love that movie (really)... and it was before my time.... which makes a strong point of how a great movie should be timeless.. anyway, if you look at my avvy, you can see that I’m somewhat of a fan for “Gangs of New York” as well as ... yeah... pretty much all of Scorsese’s movies. I think that all directors should learn from his films if they want to learn from the best. His movies have tons of down to earth action sequences even though one would just classify them as violence only... what he does right is carrying out the dramatic influence that flows within his films and it makes his violent scenes much more effective that your average action directors. So to put into context, I think I have a good angle to express the need for any and all of these future comic book adaptations to hold a strong dramatic element that has a powerful climax.
To illustrate my point even clearer, let me introduce to this little dissertation a character that most people may not even know...... Ummm **pulls paper out of raffle hat** the winner is....

John Bravestar aka/ Thunderbird of the Uncanny X-Men.

I believe that any good production crew could make a great movie on his short comic book life with him going out in a blaze of glory if it was done right. If they did his story right, they would be capable of even having the rest of the X-Men as supporting roles and it would work great. The theme could be about how an extraordinary Native American not only copes with having superhuman abilities, but also having to face his pride and how it may have led to his downfall. Not only that, they could do it in a way that illustrates how a simple human emotion can be disastrous when in the hand of one such super-human and how John may have transcended it in the end by being a hero to the rest of the X-Men as well as the world. If done right, the movie could take you into the world of such a sub-secret-society through the eyes of the one central character while expressing the burden Cyclops has being the main leader 2nd in command besides Xavier as well as Cyclops’ relation to Bravestar’s death and the guilt he may hold afterwards.
The movie could begin not necessarily with his childhood as much as it would showing the angst he went through living in a society that doesn’t allow him to be himself, whereas by the end of the story, he finally gets to be himself on top of an aircraft beating it into scrap metal before it expoded....
It can be done and if it can be done with Thunderbird, then it should’ve been done with all the rest that already came out....

His name is actually John Proudstar... Proudstar, God dammit!!

Achem... moving on...

I think I get what you're saying, and welcome to the thread.
I wouldn't personally use John Proudstar in my X-Men movie (for which I will post my pre-constructed outline after others have chance to voice their own ideas as well as comment on the unspeakably depraved genius inherent in what I've already posted), even though I'd be using a the X-Men line-up of which he was a member (minus Thunderbird himself, Sunfire, the Banshee, and Jean Grey, and plus Kitty Pride). I would, however, have a line in it that says something along the lines of "not everyone who has served with the X-Men is still alive today, Kitty," with an immediately following shot of either pictures or more subtle-yet recognizable mementos of Thunderbird and Marvel Girl/Phoenix.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and draw a connection between what you've said here to what I've been saying about how a talented, imaginative and dedicated production team could bring almost any important aspect of a classic superhero story to the screen in an impressive way, despite the limited vision displayed by makers of the current products out there and also the apologists who defend such shortcomings. Almost nobody on this site seems to believe that. The thing to remember is that you can't properly assess a superhero movie adaptation if you're not truly looking at it as such. Using bull$hit excuses like "it's not realistic" are completely devoid of merit, but a more complex question is "is it believable?" That measurement of believability has to be from a certain general perspective. Most of these stories are in large portion some mixture of science fiction and fantasy, and any claim to the contrary is invalid. The main "realism" should concern psychological and sociological aspects, not so much science and fashion sense. And one of the most important things to remember is that there is no such thing as "there being no such thing as a person with this or that characteristic." People are incredibly diverse, or at least the interesting ones are. Nobody can tell me that it's unrealistic for an intelligent young man can't invent amazing devices with which to swing around the city and crack smart-ass jokes during potentially fatal confrontations with immensely dangeorus sociopaths. How would anyone have the authority to say that? Anyone who says such a thing is proving themselves either a liar or shamefully short-sighted, and there really is no possible way they could be correct in their statement. Either you can relate to these characters or you can't. My father couldn't relate to any superhero movie on almost any level, even thought he possesses characteristics of many of the heroes and many of the villains. Am I supposed to take that as a sign that the "general audience" couldn't relate to the same material? Anecdotal evidence, even on the scale provided by this and other similar websites, is not valid proof of anything. The only thing anecdotal evidence is good for is disproving absolute statements, and it does that every single time. Just because jaded yet easily manipulated teenagers and twenty-somethings say that there's no way that a skintight costume and cowl couldn't look good on a character like Wolverine, that doesn't make it remotely true. That reflects only on the speaker, not the verity of the subject matter. There are any number of statements about any number of aspects of these movies that are just plain wrong and are only made out of narrow-mindedness and lack of imagination. And people have the audacity to call the likes of us "negative"?

I have no idea if that rant had anything to do with what you said earlier, HOC. It's just what it made me think of, starting with your first few paragraphs.

 

[Herr Logan]

Thank you Logan for the invite here. You know it is sad when the cartoon gets it right but the movie doesn't. X-Men is my example of not a really good movie. Logan was all wrong in that movie and the rest were just bit players. Sabretooth was a complete joke and waste. I waited for the Saban X-Men type Logan and Creed battle. That battle on the screen was utter crap, Singer is not someone I would have picked for this. One day a really director who knows X-Men will create the real X-Men movie we fans want to see.

Welcome to the thread, BHK.

Man, the exhanges between Wolverine and Sabretooth in the Saban cartoon were great ("We used to be friends, even work together. But we had some... misunderstandings..."; "I'll 'penetrate his recesses!'"). Wolverine came off like a real badass ("All right, you egg-suckin' piece of gutter trash! You always did like pushin' around people smaller than you! Well I'M smaller! Try pushin' me!") and Sabretooth really did come off as scary with all those snarling noises he made.

I wouldn't have used Sabretooth in a first X-Men movie. If I used him in an X-Men movie and not just a Wolverine solo film, I'd probably have him in a sequel where the main bad guy was Mr. Sinister. Sinister is even less picky about which scum he hires than Magneto, and he has employed Sabretooth in the comics. Sabretooth in a movie of mine would be like in the cartoon-- talktative, sadistic, bestial and horrifying. The best actor for the job is Ron Pearlman. Clancy Brown (whom "Wizard" magazine suggested for the part) also would have been an excellent choice, at least while he was still in prime shape. He had the size, body type, voice and acting skill for the job. He may still, I don't know. Sabretooth would be very obviously a pathological, sadistic, savage killer who hurts people out of compulsion (and thus, for fun), but makes money by killing specific targets for hire. If he and Wolverine were in the same room, it would actually be interesting, not just a cheap stunt show like in the movie they made.

 

[Herr Logan]

You mentioned that there should be a second-stringer at first, such as the Vulture. I don't know if the Vulture should be described as such (as a non-agenda villain-- someone whose agenda lies with personal revenge and conventional robbery crimes, as opposed to gathering massive power or screwing with people's lives long-term-- and an independent operative, he's A-list, but that whole category is generally less dangerous and scary than an agenda villain like Kingpin and what the Green Goblin later became. The Vulture is the probably the most visually impressive villain in Spider-Man's rogue's gallery when it comes to a cinematic flight (which we've never seen before, but if you have an imagination, you can probably see it in your mind's eye; imagine an aerial battle that includes close-up shots of Spider-Man trailing behind the Vulture on a webline as he flies at top-speed for extended distances), and he isn't the type of villain I personally would choose as the "main villain" of the movie, only because I prefer to use mastermind types like the Green Goblin and Doc Ock or characters that have complex relationships with each other (Kraven and the Chameleon; Spencer Smythe, JJJ and the Scorpion) as the main attraction that spans the entire film. The Vulture is not to be taken lightly, but I personally would use him in a one-time fight (not that he couldn't come back in a later movie for another round, just not more than one in this film) either before Dr. Octopus or in-between fights with Ock.

The way I envision Adrian Toomes in a movie is having him be an elderly but spry old curmudgeon who just got cheated in some serious way by his partner in a company that produces cutting-edge, high-tech machinery. He himself is a brilliant inventor who hasn't been completely forthcoming about what he's capable of or has been building on his own time. Another major theme of this movie series, along with the essentail "power and responsibility" theme, is that of the wonders and dangers of technology, which actually ties into the main theme. Spider-Man was created entirely by accident by technology gone awry, as was Dr. Octopus and the Lizard (if he can be placed in a later movie, probably the one with Kraven), but the Vulture, the Green Goblin, the Shocker, Spencer Smythe, Farley Stillwell (hired by J. Jonah Jameson to biologically alter and cybernetically accessorize MacDonald Gargan) Sergei Kravinov, and the Chameleon all use their technology exactly as intended but with catastrophic results.
Anyway, after very brief scenes of Toomes confronting his partner and being smugly dismissed (basically like how that banker guy dismissed Dr. Doom In Name Only in "Foxtastic Four"), he goes to either his personal laboratory at his company or to his home and digs out a high-tech green flight suit (it would actually look at least vaguely similar to Movie!Goblin's costume in "Spider-Man") complete with collapsable, flexible wings and a (mostly) noise-less flight pack. Here's where a little bit of "realism" is needed: he needs to at the very least wear eye goggles (for obvious reasons), and I think those should be integrated into a helmet-type thing that doesn't hide his entire face and looks something like a combination of the scalp-covering helmet that Black Drago (Vulture II) wore back in the day and the head piece that didn't offer the least bit of real protection that the Vulture wore in the 90's when he figured out how to be young again. This would have a beak-like look in the front, and he should probably also have some kind of transparent mouth guard, maybe even with a voice amplifier so he can shout orders to the people he's robbing and threats to the people he's getting revenge on, and most importantly (for the purposes of the movie), so he can be heard shouting curses (not like R-rated curses, just phrases that are curses in the literal sense) at Spider-Man while they're fighting in the air and moving at high speeds. The helmet should include audio-enhancing equipment and the goggles should have magnifying features so he can spot his prey from far away. It would take less than 5 seconds to impart this information to the audience and no words would have to be uttered or read. Imagination, people. Use it.

Dammit, I didn't finish my bit on the Vulture scenes. This often happens when I write long essays over long periods of time, revising various chunks at random and going off on tangents like nobody else can...

Okay, just to tighten it all up, I'll start from here and continue it:
After very brief scenes of Toomes confronting his partner and being smugly dismissed, he goes to either his personal laboratory at his company or to his home and digs out a high-tech green flight suit complete with collapsable, flexible wings, a noise-less flight pack and a helmet that includes eye-goggles like a sky-diver would wear. He jumps out of a high-story window (where his lab or home would be) and flies around, looking where he knows he'll find that trecherous bastard who cheated him. When he spots the man on the sidewalk outside his apartment building, the Vulture swoops down right at him.
The camera angle would show us the soon-to-be victim's point of view, with the Vulture zooming forward and becoming more visible. Then the camera would switch to Toomes' point of view, with the scared intended victim rushing up in his view. The camera cuts out just as the Vulture flies straight into his backstabbing partner. We're spared the gore, but not the scream and abrupt silence.
Then we see a copy of the Daily Bugle with the story on the incident (without any pictures of the Vulture, just the victim) drop onto a desk at the Daily Bugle and J. Jonah Jameson starts ranting about how they can't get any pictures of the Vulture or that wall-crawling menace Spider-Man. Just as in Sony's film, Jameson calls for an notice placed in the paper offering big bucks to anyone who can get a shot of either of these costumed lunatics (but we don't have to put up with any nonsense from Ted Raimi).
Peter reads the notice and digs up a digital camera (one of his hobbies was photography, and he was given the camera as a special present from Ben and May, 'cuz they wuv him so much). I don't know if the kind of feature Peter had on his camera in the comics existed back then or exists now-- the feature where the camera is on automatic and just keeps taking shots over and over again without having to be triggered by a person (I know next to nothing about cameras, but I'm assuming that a digital camera with a huge amount of memory allotted to it would be much more cost effective for taking dozens and dozens of photos automatically, with only a few of those photos actually capturing something worth looking at, than a traditional camera would be... feel free to enlighten me on this subject)-- but either Peter uses that existing feature or personally modifies his camera to do this (because, again, he's a God damn genius) and then he goes out "bird-watching."
The Vulture is now drunk on power and is on a crime spree, robbing jewelry stores, banks, armored cars with bank shipments, etc. Nobody can stop him. No, wait, someone can! Spider-Man finds the ol' buzzard eventually and sets his camera up where he thinks he can get some nice shots of both himself and the Vulture. Then he engages the Vulture in battle, wise-cracking all the way, and a huge aerial battle begins, spanning at least two miles in distance travelled. You can probably imagine a suitably amazing yet brief Spidey/Vulture scene. Anyway, towards the end of the sequence, Spider-Man basically steers the Vulture back toward where they started off so he can get a few more great shots on his camera. When they're near the spot he needs the Vulture to be in for his publicity shot, Spider-Man slaps his hands on the Vulture's flight pack and yanks a huge chunk of it right off with a combination of his clinging ability and his superhuman strength (in the comics, he used his scientific ingenuity to build a gadget that neutralized the Vulture's flight pack, but given the timeframe of the movie, this works better, and I've already made it clear that Peter would be shown to be a technical and chemical genius in other ways). The Vulture is out of action. How exactly the Vulture gets down-- whether he tries his best to glide without crashing or if Spider-Man carries him down after smacking or webbing him into submission-- is up for grabs. Whatever seems coolest but also quick. All of this should take only a few minutes, from the first time we see Toomes to the time he's in police custody.
Parker gets some amazing shots of this and makes Jameson drool when he brings in the pics. He works out his arrangement with JJJ, gets a suspicious look but a warm welcome from Joe Robertson and a coquettish smile from Betty Brant.

That's the Vulture bit. From this, we get a totally kickass Vulture partial-origin and battle, the beginning of Peter's career as a freelance photgrapher and his relationships with the Bugle staff. I think this entire chunk of the movie would be important, not only because of what I just listed but because ti would establish Spider-Man in the eyes of the public (in the movie) and the audience as an A-list crime-fighter and a young man with every reason to be cocky when he confronts Octavius for the first time.

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr your Spiderman movie synopsis is excellent,something along those lines wouldve been an ideal way to start the franchise IMO,I wonder do you think the train sequence from SM-2 could be used in your final ock/spidey showdown ?
I honestly have no ideas to add to your story,i have a few for the way i would do SM-3 but thats for another board,i also have ideas for Iron Man,Daredevil and a batman sequel but i'll wait until this Spiderman disscussion has had more time

Thanks for the feedback, Hunter.

When you say "final Ock/Spidey showdown," do you mean the end of Movie #1 or when Spider-Man takes Ock down in Movie #3 (after he's hijacked the isotope/medication that was supposed to cure Aunt May's illness, fought Spider-Man and escaped again, and then accidentally-- but not regretfully-- killed George Stacy)?

Either way, I sure as hell wouldn't even entertain the idea of having Peter take his mask off for any reason during a battle with Ock (and absolutely not with the intention of having civilians see his face or defending his unconscious body), or spending that much time focusing on how much physical trauma he's going through to save the people of New York.
I envisioned the showdown with Ock in the first movie to happen at Coney Island (where he fought Ock in the exact situation I set up for that battle, excluding the part where Peter is flu-ridden and weak and gets beaten and unmasked by Ock in front of the police), but it could happen on a train, as long as Betty Brant was on that train and Ock didn't knock Spidey out or get away. He's supposed to be beaten by Spidey and taken into police/federal custody at the end of that movie.

I'm not entirely sure how I want the third one to flow. I know I want these things in the movie:
-Peter and Gwen Stacy to now be a serious couple
-George Stacy and Joe Robertson comparing notes on Spider-Man and individually keeping an eye on Parker
-Aunt May to either get radiation poisoning from a blood transfusion from Peter (unless that's completely scientifically implausible by even the most lax sci-fi standards in today's world) or be afflicted some other deadly ailment that requires a specially ordered chemical from another part of the country to make her well again
-Doctor Octopus to escape from prison and start building another underworld network, employing some highly trained mercenaries to do his bidding; he needs whatever the special medicine Aunt May needs for whatever reason; his goons hijack the shipment, inciting Spider-Man to track them down and fight Doc Ock for the medicine, and they end up at his lair (hopefully an underwater scientific observation complex Ock has taken over, for maximum faithfulness and James Bond-esque scenery) and then the whole "Final Chapter" bit with Spidey buried under tons of metal and prevailing against the odds, etc., Spidey getting the medicine and getting it to the doctors in time
-Spider-Man to pursue the still escaped Octavius, relying on his scientific prowess to save the day; he devises some way to manipulate the A.I. in Doc Ock's hardware (that Ock has complete control over up until Spidey messes with it) so that it goes out of control and even attacks Ock; but they're in the middle of the city on a rooftop and while trying to regain control of his tentacles, Ock smashes a chimney which almost kills a child but George Stacy saves the day and gets killed for it; Stacy reveals to Spidey he knows he's Peter before dying
-Ock either escapes again or gets beaten to a pulp by Spider-Man and taken back into custody, set for surgery to separate the machine-- or at least a risky metal-cutting procedure to cut the almost unbreakable metal of the contraption in order to sever the tentacles, if not the spine-piece and computer-- from his body
-Gwen Stacy is devastated, hates Spider-Man and Peter feels horrible as well
--Norman is having headaches and bad dreams, and generally feeling a bit green around the gills...

Perhaps the final battle here could involve a train, but like I said, none of that sappy-ass Raimi crap with missing masks and maudlin New Yorkers protecting Spider-Man.

Feel free to post your ideas, but it's also fine if you want to wait. I haven't personally come up with anything for a revamped Daredevil movie or anything for an Iron Man movie (except I know for a fact I don't want the villain to be anything to do with Tony's father, which is what I hear they're going to give us whenever they do the dirty deed, because God knows we need that crap after "Hulk," right?-- in the spirit of "Absorbing Dad," what are us fans gonna call the villain after it's all said and done... the Old Man'darin? Justin Stark? D.A.D.O.K.? Crimson Daddio? the Cold Progenitor?), and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on that.
I do have several thoughts on how to rework "Batman Begins" itself to make it "super excellent" instead of "pretty damn good" (again, this is just theoretical and has nothing to do with what could happen in the future) but I'll wait until others get into the Batman topic, so feel free to share your ideas on that whenever you feel like it.