SPIDER-MAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

Discussion in 'Spidey-World' started by Herr Logan, May 19, 2006.

  1. Herr Logan Registered

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    Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More
    From

    SPIDER-MAN



    This thread is a spin-off of the original ‘Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More’ from the Misc. Comics Films forum. That thread was open to the discussion of all superhero properties, and I have branched out into several property-specific ones so we can better keep track of people’s posts and have more linear and organized discussions about each superhero property.

    Listed below are several posts links from the original Haven that pertain to the subject of this particular thread. It is not a complete list, and anyone who wants to link or re-post something they thought was interesting is welcome to do so.
    I recommend reading these posts before posting your own ideas, but it’s not a requirement.
    I ask that while people can respectfully point it out, they not act harshly when a user makes a new post that contains material that is similar to what has already been posted in either the original Haven or this particular thread.

    This thread, like its predecessor, is dedicated to the brainstorming and discussion of ideas pertaining to how faithful and optimally entertaining superhero movie adaptations could have, or still could, be made. This is also a place for analyzing what has come before and how that could be a basis for ideal film adaptations of the various superhero properties we know and love, more closely based on the source material. The topic of this thread is Spider-Man.

    I think certain movies already made could be taken as a basis for fully faithful adaptations, as in a large portion of a particular movie could be left mostly the way it is with specific alterations to what held that movie back from being better. Even some of the obvious changes to the various mythos could be used to enhance the story or execution of an adaptation that could still be considered faithful by discriminating, analytical and demanding fans. If there hasn’t been a movie made of the superhero(es) discussed in this thread, then ignore the last two sentences.
    I want to discuss the theoretical possibilities present in both the original source material and the existing adaptations, and how those could be put into new productions that completely nail both the "spirit" and the essential details of these mythologies. Plots, script, character traits, costumes, even casting decisions are open for discussion. This is ultimately for the purpose of creative discussions for their own sake, although I would be delighted if it inspired high-quality, faithful fan scripts beings written (Dragon has written some excellent Spider-Man screenplays, for example).


    All other non-comics media are valid topics as well (live action and animated TV series, video games, etc.). Again, it's fine to use ideas from existing products (casting, plot elements, dialogue, props/effects, etc.) as a basis or part of an idea for a "new" product if the new product would be significantly more faithful, even though it would be implausible for a rebooted franchise (a la "Batman Begins") to include these same elements in reality; reality is mostly irrelevant here.
    It is unlikely that these ideas will lead to a better movie being made; not unless one of the thread participants ends up being a big-time producer or someone important in the business reads this thread. This is for us, the fans. We spend a good deal of time on the Hype, and it really doesn't accomplish much in terms of tangible results anyway. That's okay, since the point of this forum, presumably, is for the purpose of imparting information, critiquing superhero products, and discussing ideas. This is for people who are intelligent, imaginative, and passionate and have ideas to share conforming to the stated topic.


    Ground Rules:
    • If you believe that the movie adaptations already made are perfect or good enough and do not need revision or analysis, then you have nothing to contribute to this thread, so be on your way and don’t intrude where you have nothing to offer. Do not waste our time with conformist platitudes. Do not come in here and defend film decisions that are considered flaws by contributing posters, unless you have another aspect in mind that does need changing and post an equal or greater portion of text discussing a criticism or suggesting an idea for an existing or hypothetical product that is very faithful to the source material.
    • We’re here to talk amongst ourselves, and anyone who disagrees with the spirit of this thread is in no way obligated to read any of the content herein or reply. Any of the behavior I described above that occurs here is trolling, pure and simple. This thread isn’t about argument and hostility. The only personal criticism that should occur is that which is directed toward the producers (meaning anyone involved in the production in any way) of preexisting superhero products, and even that should be kept reasonably limited, since everyone who truly belongs in this thread is assumed to have some level of disagreement with said producers, sometimes to the point of resentment. We need not spend excessive time on blaming them for their failings, but don’t hold back your true feelings on those screw-ups either. Disagreement between rule-abiding posters is fine. Just keep it civil and within the guidelines. Or else.

    • Nobody is allowed to use terms like “fanboy,” “nerd,” “purist,” “hater,” or anything like that in a derogatory manner toward other posters or comic fans in general in this thread. The word "whining" and the like-- unless used with regard to a character in a movie, comic book or TV show (ex. “Spider-Man was quite the whiner...”)—is forbidden, as is “nitpicking,” and anything else intended to bully anyone into complacency and acceptance of existing products. The phrase “impossible standards” and anything to the effect of “movies and comics are different mediums, so there have to be changes,” “the general audience will not accept the same things comics fans will,” and “people want to see realism,” if not accompanied by a massive amount of faithful and potentially marketable ideas meant to compensate or work around these alleged “facts,” are also strictly forbidden.
    • It is okay to suggest minor deviations from the source material for this topic, as long as the majority of the ideas you put forth—or are simply replying to and agree with—are consistent with the source material and/or significantly more faithful than previous existing adaptations.
    • Please do not include concepts based on Marvel's Ultimate Universe that differ greatly from the real Marvel Universe (616). I realize this is largely subjective, so I'll have to shoulder the terrible burden of deciding what is "faithful enough;" I'll try not to be capricious about it.*
    *That last rule was added on 6/03/06, so contributors who began sharing concepts that are overall strongly based on the Ultimate Universe prior to that may continue to further develop them (example: The Question proposed a movie for 'The Ultimates' on 6/02/06, so that, as a movie or a multi-film franchise, gets a free pass forevermore). Other posters should not start posting that type of material, or rather they should be aware that I will address it and judge the content acceptable or unacceptable. Thanks for bearing with me.
    • Do not belittle classic superhero or villain costumes. Do not use the word "panties" to describe those shorts that some heroes wear over their tights. It's fine to describe a costume as "tights" as long as they actually are and you aren't belittling anything. It's not okay to use the word "Spandex" to describe a costume from the comics that is not actually made of it, unless you're suggesting that Spandex, Lycra, etc. be used in the production of the movie, or maybe suggesting Neoprene or something else over it. Using the term "gay" in any derogatory sense whatsoever in this thread will result in an immediate report to a moderator, without warning, whether or not you've read this.

    Again, it’s okay to disagree with a person’s criticism of a movie if you have another one to share, but do not post remarks about an existing or real-life upcoming film if you have no significant complaints about any of the productions being discussed.

    I hope the guidelines are clear. Everyone is welcome to contribute or comment, as long as they follow the rules and don’t make any criticisms that are not relevant to the thread. You either belong here or you don’t, and that choice is up to you , so have respect enough to let the environment herein reflect the title of this thread.
    Anyone who violates the rules or causes trouble will be promptly reported.

    Thank you for your cooperation.


    It is recommended, but not strictly required, that you supply a unique title at the beginning of each new post, especially when it isn’t a reply to another’s post. This will help in identifying the topic of each new post at a glance and finding specific posts with the Hype’s search engine. You can resend older posts in the appropriate thread and add titles to them.
    Examples:
    • “Hunter Rider’s Iron Man concept #1”
    • “Herr Logan’s ‘Batman: Dark Knight Detective’ video game,”
    • “Everyman’s Captain America movie series concept #1”
    • “Zev’s Daredevil TV Show concept”
    • “Logan & Zaphod’s Batman movie series concept.”


    Welcome to the Safe Haven. Enjoy!


    Here are a few posts from the original thread to check out. Make sure to check the quoted portions, as several of these posts are two-for-one deals (which is why so many of mine are here, because I almost always reply to people’s posts and frequently use quotes from other posts). Also, most of these links lead to single post pages, but if you open those pages and click on the thread title link in the upper right corner, it will take you to that post in the full thread, where you can see what came before and afterward. If I’ve confused you and you need help navigating the links, just ask.



    Spider-Man Haven Posts

    (check next post)


    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

    --George Bernard Shaw
    , Man and Superman (1903) "Maxims for Revolutionists"
     
  2. Herr Logan Registered

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    Spider-Man Haven Posts from the original Safe Haven thread

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    In case anyone wants a good argument to use against people who automatically and thoughtlessly shoot down the idea of using a more faithful superhero costume than filmmakers are likely to use, read this post.

    It's more or less air-tight, except for the fact that value judgements on these kinds of things are completely subjective. However, If an anti-source material studio apologist states a value judgement as if it has concrete value, then my argument is completely air-tight.

    I'm proud of it because it's probably the first time I put that concept together in cogent words that didn't go on for pages and pages of sprawling, tangential text. I guess the secret to relatively succinct and logical posts for me is to be pissed off and succumbing to the effects of Tylenol PM. Weird...

    :wolverine
     
  3. Abaddon Watching

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    Rough outline for Spider-man movie:

    Origin story.
    Pete goes to high school with Harry,Flash,and Liz.
    Gets bitten by spider
    Learns of his powers,lets it get to his head
    Exploits his abilities for money.
    Ben dies,he learns responsibility lesson.
    Becomes a hero
    Meets Gwen Stacy in college.
    Norman makes a brief cameo
    Captain Stacy is introduced
    Meets Doc Ock.
    Doc Ock has his accident.Begins to set some plan into motion which endangers the lives of many.
    Parallel established between Doc Ock letting his hubris get to him,and Pete learning responsibility.
    Gwen tries to get close to Peter.Pete's still reluctant because of his secret.
    Doc Ock fights Spidey.Captain Stacy dies.
    Spidey's villainized.
    Pete wants to reveal his feelings to Gwen but she voices her hatred of Spidey.
    Spidey defeats Doc Ock and saves a bunch of people.
    Movie ends on a high note somehow,with Spidey saving somebody or something.

    Bada-Bing Bada-Boom.:cool:
     
  4. Herr Logan Registered

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    Nice outline. :up:

    It gets into the really tragic stuff right off in the first movie (Cap. Stacy's death on top of Uncle Ben's). A bold move.

    Thanks for posting, Abaddon, but I must point out that you've changed your signature quote twice in as many days. Do you even have standards anymore??

    :wolverine
     
  5. Abaddon Watching

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    Nah,I'm just fickle.
     
  6. Herr Logan Registered

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    Would you have sequels to this movie? If so, how many do you think you'd want?

    :wolverine
     
  7. Abaddon Watching

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    2,to make a trilogy.And maybe some other films later down the line.
     
  8. Herr Logan Registered

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    I'm assuming the Green Goblin would be the main villain for the second film. Who'd be the main villain of the third?

    Also, would you have just one villain per movie or several, and in what capacity?


    :wolverine
     
  9. Abaddon Watching

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    I was actually thinking of having GG for the third film.the second would introduce MJ and the villain would either be Chameleon,Kraven,or someone else I havent considered.:confused:


    There would definitely be some villain cameos for the second and third stringers.I don't really like the idea of multiple villains in a movie(that brought up some horrible flashbacks to the early Bat-franchise),but thats not to say that it could never be pulled off well.
     
  10. Herr Logan Registered

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    Kraven and the Chameleon could easily go in the same movie.

    I know mutiple villains in one movie could be pulled off well, if competent filmmakers truly wanted it.

    :wolverine
     
  11. Abaddon Watching

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    Alright,quick treatment for the sequel-


    Peter becomes frustrated and a bit disillusioned with the idea of being a hero.Gwen Stacy,still angry for her fathers death has publically denounced Spider-Man as a dangerous vigilante.It's clear her grief has clouded her judgment.In spite of her hatred of Spider-man she still wants to be with Peter,and can't understand why he spurns her advances.Aside from this he's having trouble in school,and is fired as a TA by Dr. Connors.He runs into Flash and Liz from High School,and they have an exchange,with a slightly matured Flash showing no remorse for having bullied Peter in the past.This scene would also establish his admiration for Spider-Man.Aunt May,being unaware of Peter's feelings for Gwen,decides to set up a date for him,which Peter is too busy for,since he's got other things on his mind....


    Chameleon appears as a spy/assasin(havent decided how to clear that up) sent to take out some foreign diplomat/s.His first attempt fails however,when Spidey show up on the scene(The diplomat is only injured).He gets into a heated battle,and after a a hard up exposes his true appearance,to Spideys surprise.Chameleon manages to escape,however,when Peter goes into his street clothes he finds his Spider-sense going beserk at a subway station.He figures it's coming from a man in a business suit and follows after him to make sure he doesn't do anything crazy.The man goes into the tunnel and by this time Peter has realized something is up,and quickly changes back into Spider-Man.He calls the man out and Cham makes a break for it,coming out from beneath the streets.Spidey catches up and they have it out in an alley.Then I thought up this exchange just now:
    Spider-Man: Who are you?
    Chameleon: Who am I? *mimics Spider-Man's appearance*
    Spider-Man: Oh great,an existential villain.:rolleyes:

    Or maybe it just sounds good in my head.:o

    But anyway,they go at it,and it ends with Chameleon going into the street and disappearing among the onlookers.Peter meanwhile decides to try and figure out why the diplomat was targeted,and he's given some insight by a few of the staff at The Bugle.Chameleon realizing he can't allow Spider-man to be a burden contracts his old associate Kraven(who've I altered a bit so that he's seen taking the serum several times during the film.The dosage depens on the size of the quarry).

    More later...
     
  12. Herr Logan Registered

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    Sounds very cool so far.

    Just out of curiosity, what kind of fight would the Chameleon put up? Is he a trained combatant? Is he armed?

    It would be an alteration, but I could definitely go for a Chameleon that, while not nearly able to truly beat Spider-Man in a fair fight, could take on most "normal" human opponents. It's that whole super-spy thing he's got goin' on.
    I could even accept a Chameleon that had a gift for mimicking physical skills (not to the degree of the Taskmaster, but a similar kind of ability).

    Also, how does he shape his form in this? Does he physically morph into a different form? Holographic image inducer? Those latex masks they use in the Mission: Impossible movies?

    Thanks for posting. :up:

    :wolverine
     
  13. Abaddon Watching

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    Oh,Chameleon would defintely have some mean fighting skills.Of course,when he's on mission he'll most likely use some fancy weaponry,or if the situation doesn't call for it something subtler(like a scene I have planned later).


    The idea I've got so far is that his skin somewhat malleable and is able to mimic hair,skin tone,etc.He does use an image inducer to change the appearance of his clothing though.I have no idea how to explain any of that.:o


    I might change that around some.:confused:
     
  14. Herr Logan Registered

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    Ah, I forgot to mention cool spy gadgets!

    Also, Kraven the Hunter should be using advanced, high-tech gadgets as well, specifically suited for hunting and capturing the most dangerous prey. As much as the 2003 MTV Spider-Man series overall was crappy, they're so-called "update" of Kraven was acceptable. I'd still have him wear a real lion's pelt and various animal-skin leathers in my own movie.

    There's no real need for an explanation if it's a holographic image inducer, at least not past "it creates a holographic disguise that can look like anything of a comparable size and shape to the Chameleon's own body."

    As for actual shapeshifting, I'd personally prefer an explanation (ex. "he underwent a radical surgery that implanted malleable, versatile, artificial, cybernetically-controlled tissues in his face and scalp"; "his head-mask constructs whatever shape, color and texture he wants and is controlled by cybernetic commands"), and I'm sure many other people would, too, but as long as it's stated that he's using holograms and/or is actually rearranging his features physically, there isn't a strict need for it.


    I would have some villain cameos in my own Spider-Man franchise that may or may not have explanations for their powers. Electro is one of them, since he would not be a "plot villain" (as in he's there for the action, not to advance a central super-plot). The Shocker would probably be that way, too, although I'd have someone point out, either before or after the Shocker is defeated and handed over to the cops, that it's machines that create the shock waves, not inherent superpowers, and that his costume is protection against the feedback. Then again, the Shocker was "in the system" when he created those devices and he used them to escape, so the cops would be more likely to know the deal when he's brought back in (I'll never understand why they allowed prisoners access to a workshop in the Marvel Universe; you'd think they'd learn...). Electro, however, got his powers outside of jail and was never a convict until he used them.

    Anyway, good stuff, Abaddon. :up:

    :wolverine
     
  15. Herr Logan Registered

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    Additional Rule :
    • Please do not include concepts based on Marvel's Ultimate Universe that differ greatly from the real Marvel Universe (616). I realize this is largely subjective, so I'll have to shoulder the terrible burden of deciding what is "faithful enough;" I'll try not to be capricious about it.*
    *That last rule was added on 6/03/06, so contributors who began sharing concepts that are overall strongly based on the Ultimate Universe prior to that may continue to further develop them (example: The Question proposed a movie for 'The Ultimates' on 6/02/06, so that, as a movie or a multi-film franchise, gets a free pass forevermore). Other posters should not start posting that type of material, or rather they should be aware that I will address it and judge the content acceptable or unacceptable. Thanks for bearing with me.

    :wolverine
     
  16. Herr Logan Registered

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    Starting here are some comments I and other true believers have made on the subject of a Green Goblin costume. I think some of these ideas were mentioned in the original thread and can be found in the links in the first post of this thread.

    :wolverine
     
  17. Herr Logan Registered

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    This is the mask I would use for the Green Goblin costume in my Spider-Man movies. The link in my previous post leads to my description of the full costume, spread over a couple posts.

    :wolverine


    [​IMG]
     
  18. Abaddon Watching

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    I haven't decided whether or not I'd go with a Kraven's Last Hunt-esque ending. But most likely it won't. That stuff can be saved for an animated series based off the movies or something once the trilogy is done.
     
  19. Herr Logan Registered

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    I wouldn't do Kraven's Last Hunt in a movie, either.

    I'd probably have him turn himself into the police, having promised beforehand to do just that if Spider-Man defeated him during the Hunt. As sketchy as Kraven's sense of honor was in the original comics (using elaborate, high-tech traps while boasting about his "prowess"... this is something he addressed at some point while talking to Calypso), I liked that he had it. I'd have him outright say that he's not above using his expensive, state-of-the-art arsenal of weapons, gadgets and traps in addition to his artificially-enhanced physical powers to hunt prey as dangerous and powerful as Spider-Man, and that the only way to defeat him is to outsmart him, thus overcoming all of those factors in Kraven's favor. In the jungle, with an animal with less intelligence and power than Spider-Man (which is any animal in the entire Kingdom), more traditional tools, traps and techniques would be appropriate, butsince he believes Spider-Man's powers are probably either the result of being a mutant or of modern technology, he warrants using the best tools humans can offer.


    Speaking of animated series, I would definitely like to create one that is very closely based on the comics, choosing the best stories and villains and starting from the beginning, basically going in order. The show could take place in the 21st century and still retain almost all of the important aspects of the mythos for all of the characters (I'd still go with radiation for most of the radiation-spawned characters, but also use genetic engineering for characters who were deliberately transformed into what they became, such as the Scorpion). One main difference would be the cultural references and slang used (again, because of the time shift), but the dialogue should remain intelligent and witty, and would not in any way be more similar to Brian Michael Bendis' uninspired dialogue than necessary. In fact, the Spider-Man from the 90's animated series wasn't far off from the real deal in his dialogue a lot of the time.

    There would have to be real guns when real guns are required (like for cops and common criminals), not lasers and other energy weapons as was the case in the 90's animated series. Hell, I'd gladly allow a not-so-subtle anti-gun theme running throughout if it let me keep things as they should be.
    The restraints on language and violence should be no more severe than they were on the early Spider-Man comics of the 60's. If I even included Morbius as a villain (and he would be a grown-up hematologist, not Peter Parker's classmate and romantic rival... likewise, not everybody would go to the same school or work for the same people or know each other) , he wouldn't be hungering for "plasma." He'd be hungering for blood, God dammit, and he'd take it by tearing open people's necks with his fangs, not absorbing it through those disgusting hand-sucker thingies. Was that supposed to be less disturbing than using his fangs? Also, Spider-Man would actually be allowed to punch people, which he wasn't in the 90's series.

    There would be action befitting the comics Spider-Man universe, which would be more like the 90's show than the MTV CGI series, which was ridiculous in its physics mechanics, and much too "cartoony." I want animation that looks like it could have been drawn by John Romita, Gil Kane, and other classic artists (I didn't mention Steve Ditko only because his style wasn't as clean and fit for animation, not because he wasn't talented). The show could even be fully CGI, but only if they did a much better job than the MTV show.

    :wolverine
     
  20. Herr Logan Registered

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    ****spoiler Warning****

    This is why I don't want to see pretty much anything solely taken from Ultimate comics put forth in a Marvel Safe Haven thread. Good God...


    What's hilarious is the person saying it must be bull$hit because the thing with Ben Reilly's sonic cannon is corny. Yeah, because Sam Raimi wouldn't-- I mean hasn't-- put anything corny into the Spider-Man movie franchise, right? They've all been completely free of corn and cheese, and furthermore are hella tight and wicked cool, ya heard??

    :wolverine
     
  21. Bullseye Registered

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    I think the Green Goblin should continually wreak havoc on Spider-Man during the next sequels. Green Goblin has been a brutal character in the comics and I would to see Goblin be a main focus point in the next few films.

    Norman looked to Peter as a son. It would like to see that intensify and Harry becomes involved thus bringing things full circle.

    By the way, Herr Logan is one of the most brilliant posters at the Hype. Always keeping it interesting at the Hype.
     
  22. Tangled Web Registered

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    That's how you do it! Get Kevin Smith, get Stan Lee and make this into a picture.
     
  23. Tangled Web Registered

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    Damn Abaddon and Logan, you guys have talent.
     
  24. Herr Logan Registered

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    You mean in a new franchise done by you, or the current existing one?

    Aw, yer makin' me blush over here.. :O

    Thank you both kindly, and Welcome to the Haven. :up:


    :wolverine
     
  25. Tangled Web Registered

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    I like it here, on the SPidey sequel board I asked if Spider-Man should some day get a relaunch (Batman Begins) and I'm getting ridiculed on there. I'm also getting bombarded for criticizing Spidey's ymbiote suit and the Green Goblin II's costume.
     

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