World SUPERMAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More from

Mostly agree, and I'm going to give them leeway on the Jason thing because historically, the Superman adaptions have done a lot of things that flushed back into comics canon. Without filmmakers and radio producers and animators changing things around, comic book Superman would be unrecognizable.

  1. Kryptonite was invented by the Superman radio show, along with Perry White and Jimmy Olsen, not to mention the "It's a bird etc." catch phrase.
  2. Superman's flying ability was invented by the Fleischer (sp?) Brothers cartoons.
  3. Mercy Graves was from the Paul Dini cartoon, as is Brainiac's insignia.
  4. Kal-El instead of Kal-L (and so on with Jor-El, etc.) comes from a novel written by George Lowther in 1942.

And so on and so forth.

But even if you dislike the movie, trust me, it's lightyears ahead of the J.J. Abrams script that's floating around online. Superman does kung-fu (why does he need it!?), uses "blastaffs" that shoots lasers (but he has heatvision!), fights villains so underdeveloped they're anemic (I think "Dr. Lex Luthor" is one of the worst Lex Luthors ever put to paper), and a gay Jimmy Olsen (and yes, he is described as "effeminate"). Oh, and there's a near-rape of Martha Kent (I'm not being metaphorical, someone actually tries to rape Ma Kent. The entire time I'm thinkg what is this doing in a Superman movie?) and Clark is an angsty Spider-Man clone who wishes he was jes like all the othah kiddies. And the Superman suit is a symbiote. Like Venom.

For the sake of your soul, don't read it. I'm leaving out the really awful stuff, like how they've replaced Superman's Krypton origin with the Star Wars prequels.
 
If my girlfriend of 5.5 years-- and fiancee of 4.5 of those years-- hadn't left me earlier tonight, thereby destroying any possible dreams of lasting happiness and leaving me with the options of getting intimate with the wheels and tracks of a subway train or moving back in with my parents in a month, I'd feel compelled to tear you a new assh0le for flagrantly ignoring the rule about not defending current adaptations without supplying at least an equal amount of alternative criticisms for that same adaptation (which means the actual product, not J.J. Abrams' horrific vision of Superman which never got made). But here we are. **** it... this place is as dead as Krypton and as pointless as my future. You people do whatever you damn well please. Make sure to **** on the rules of every other "Safe Haven" thread while you're at it, so none of them feel left out. Try the Fantastic Four one, since the only post in there that isn't mine is by a smug, disrespectful, worthless dick-rind who chose to use one post out of the seven he's made over the year he's been signed up here to mock me. Might as well keep a common theme.

I'm ****ing done here. Have fun.

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
If my girlfriend of 5.5 years-- and fiancee of 4.5 of those years-- hadn't left me earlier tonight, thereby destroying any possible dreams of lasting happiness and leaving me with the options of getting intimate with the wheels and tracks of a subway train or moving back in with my parents in a month, I'd feel compelled to tear you a new assh0le for flagrantly ignoring the rule about not defending current adaptations without supplying at least an equal amount of alternative criticisms for that same adaptation (which means the actual product, not J.J. Abrams' horrific vision of Superman which never got made). But here we are. **** it... this place is as dead as Krypton and as pointless as my future. You people do whatever you damn well please. Make sure to **** on the rules of every other "Safe Haven" thread while you're at it, so none of them feel left out. Try the Fantastic Four one, since the only post in there that isn't mine is by a smug, disrespectful, worthless dick-rind who chose to use one post out of the seven he's made over the year he's been signed up here to mock me. Might as well keep a common theme.

I'm ****ing done here. Have fun.

:wolverine
Calm down. This post was unecessary.
 
Jakomus said:
Calm down. This post was unecessary.

So was his. So is yours. The relevant point was that it's not okay to draw up a list of examples (no matter how well researched or accurate) that attempts to justify a drastic change from continuity without providing real, significant criticism of other aspects of the movie, and saying that you agree with the majority of my comments isn't good enough. This is not a general discussion thread where people just post their general opinions of the movies, although adding general impressions is fine to do as long as the poster provides a reasonably well thought out criticism and/or an idea for a hypothetical non-comics media adaptation of the same subject (or in the range of subjects, since at least one of these threads is designated for a wide range of various superhero franchises) that would be more faithful than what has been produced in real life before or is likely to be in the future.

The majority of the Superhero Hype boards superhero media forums have countless threads that welcome general reactions, whether positive or negative. Zev has regularly contributed to various Safe Haven threads, so I'd be fine if he just wants to say what he liked or didn't like, i.e. merely expressing his preferences. What I'm not okay with is him, or anyone else, defending an aspect of a film that has been criticized already in this very thread, without writing an equal or comparable amount of text that criticizes other aspects. I specifically said in my review post that nobody is allowed to do that, but he did it anyway. If I was in a better mood, I may or may not let it slide, but I'm not in a better mood. I'm bitterness personified right now, but I'm still thinking rationally enough to accurately judge a post as welcome or prohibited material with regard to this thread.

If I didn't make it clear enough that criticizing alternate scripts as an attempt to follow the rules isn't enough, then I'm sorry for that, but I've seen too many of those kinds of comparisons, particularly with the Spider-Man movies ("At least it wasn't Cameron's scriptment, so be thankful for what you get") to let it slide.

I've explained my reasons for making the judgement call that I did. As for the ranting and lashing out, if I thought you gave a damn about the reasons behind that, I'd give a damn about your objection to it. But this isn't an "if" set of circumstances.
As I said, I've justified myself with regard to labeling that post prohibited material. I remember calmly justifying my reasons for adding a new rule to every Marvel Safe Haven that you told me you thought was unfair, and was willing to talk it out civilly, but you never responded to that. I want to make it clear that my willingness to explain myself is in no way meant to imply a willingness to take orders from other people in any Safe Haven thread. If you want to ignore me when I'm being reasonable, then you should go ahead and ignore me when I don't feel like expressing myself reasonably.

In any case, my last post wasn't a threat. It was my reaction to not being taken seriously. Zev's a trouble-maker, not a troll. It's an important difference when someone has contributed as much as he has.

:wolverine
 
Well, I had hoped agreeing with your criticisms was sufficient. But if not...

The journey to Krypton wasn't given much weight. He went to his homeworld, found nothing, and came back. I realize there are thematic reasons for this, but couldn't they have come up with a more convincing reason for him to be out of action? A distress signal from Krypton, as I could kinda believe that Superman would go to Krypton if he thought he was going to rescue survivors and instead just found ruins.

Biggest plot hole ever... since this is obviously a sequel to the Donner Superman movies, why doesn't Supes just push the Earth backwards in its orbit around the sun five times (since we know spinning it around backwards reverses time) and it'll be like he never left. No Lex Luthor getting out of prison, no Lois Lane getting engaged to another man... Maybe if they had a scene of Martha Kent asking him this (thus justifying her otherwise pointless cameo) and him saying that he can't because the last time he did it he almost fractured the time-space continuum beyond repair or something, thus giving him no more get-out-of-jail-free cards.

This is more of a personal problem, but as soon as Lex's gal said "You act like you've been here before," I could hear thousands of Smallville fans rushing off to write "prequels" where the Fortress of Solitude is Clark Kent and Lex Luthor's secret love nest.

And the biggest problem I have with the movie is that they deliberately took the "American Way" out of "Truth, Justice, and..." because (and this is a quote from the screenwriters) "it doesn't mean the same thing as it meant back in 1945."

Well, that's all I can think of right now. What about you, C.S. Lewis, you got any complaints?

Lewis_CS.jpg


"I think they kinda overdid it with the Christ symbolism."
 
Zev said:
Well, I had hoped agreeing with your criticisms was sufficient. But if not...
Apology accepted.

As soon as you bring me a whole lotta pie or other "comfort food."

If my girlfriend doesn't come back to me, it'll mean the last movie we ever saw together was 'The Devil Wore Prada.' Now I'm not saying that it was bad, or that Merryl Streep wasn't fantastic, but I did it as a gesture of good faith, not choice. I'd rather sit through the entirety of 'Superman Returns' (as opposed to just the good parts on DVD) several more times, completely by choice, than see a movie that's at once an enormous designer clothing commercial and a thinly-veiled and intelligently written b!tch-slap toward an editor in chief of Vogue magazine as a small leaf on an olive branch that got rejected.

The journey to Krypton wasn't given much weight. He went to his homeworld, found nothing, and came back. I realize there are thematic reasons for this, but couldn't they have come up with a more convincing reason for him to be out of action? A distress signal from Krypton, as I could kinda believe that Superman would go to Krypton if he thought he was going to rescue survivors and instead just found ruins.
Good point. There could conceivably be a distress signal set up right before the planet was destroyed that is still broadcasting on a loop since it was programmed. It could be an ambiguous message that sounds like it's a current situation (kind of like on 'Lost' for the first few seconds after discovering Rousseau's distress call) and maybe with some distortion that blocks out some essential words that declare that the planet is going to explode and leaves it open for the interpretation that the planet already exploded and these are survivors seeking a new inhabitable place to live.

Then again, it took him five years to get there and back. They could change the timeframe, sure, but it would have to be a great leap of faith to think he'd get there in time. Still, it's a possibility.

Biggest plot hole ever... since this is obviously a sequel to the Donner Superman movies, why doesn't Supes just push the Earth backwards in its orbit around the sun five times (since we know spinning it around backwards reverses time) and it'll be like he never left. No Lex Luthor getting out of prison, no Lois Lane getting engaged to another man... Maybe if they had a scene of Martha Kent asking him this (thus justifying her otherwise pointless cameo) and him saying that he can't because the last time he did it he almost fractured the time-space continuum beyond repair or something, thus giving him no more get-out-of-jail-free cards.
Can't say I'm real surprised about them not using that trick. :o

This is more of a personal problem, but as soon as Lex's gal said "You act like you've been here before," I could hear thousands of Smallville fans rushing off to write "prequels" where the Fortress of Solitude is Clark Kent and Lex Luthor's secret love nest.
Now I can hear them, too. :(

And the biggest problem I have with the movie is that they deliberately took the "American Way" out of "Truth, Justice, and..." because (and this is a quote from the screenwriters) "it doesn't mean the same thing as it meant back in 1945."
Shoulda seen that one coming.

If I was in charge of a Captain America movie franchise, I'd ask DC if I could use that if they're not going to (after telling them extensively about how I hate Joey Q as much as they do, since he's the reason the two companies won't be doing any business together any time soon), and I'd make sure to have the titular character explain what exactly the "American way" is in such a way that it won't offend (or just plain piss off) any reasonable people. I can understand them not wanting to use that for Superman in this era, but at the same time I can easily see them using it in a non-nationalistic context. In any case, they didn't do it well. "All that jazz." Yeah, that's real witty.

Well, that's all I can think of right now. What about you, C.S. Lewis, you got any complaints?

Lewis_CS.jpg


"I think they kinda overdid it with the Christ symbolism."
This is why I can't stay mad at you, Zev. :D :up:

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Good point. There could conceivably be a distress signal set up right before the planet was destroyed that is still broadcasting on a loop since it was programmed. It could be an ambiguous message that sounds like it's a current situation (kind of like on 'Lost' for the first few seconds after discovering Rousseau's distress call) and maybe with some distortion that blocks out some essential words that declare that the planet is going to explode and leaves it open for the interpretation that the planet already exploded and these are survivors seeking a new inhabitable place to live.

Then again, it took him five years to get there and back. They could change the timeframe, sure, but it would have to be a great leap of faith to think he'd get there in time. Still, it's a possibility.

Well, all of the Superman films have played fast and loose with time and physics (didn't Jor-El's recording say he had been dead for "thousands of your years?"). They could just magic up some Kryptonian "return to sender" crystal so he gets to Krypton in five minutes and takes five years to go back. It just feels like such a dropped plot point, I wouldn't be surprised if they brought it back for Superman Returns 2: Superman Didn't Leave This Time, So Really It's Us, The Audience, Who's Returning. Although J.J. Abrams' script sucked balls, the idea of evil Kryptonians (I think there was a Superman TAS comic book on this premise) coming to conquer/colonize Earth is a good concept. Although as said, the execution of said premise in J.J. Abrams script is craptacular. But imagine Superman's loyalties being torn between his people and his adopted homeland, Lex Luthor and Superman having to work together to get rid of the Kryptonians, dogfights between the evil Kryptonians and fighter jets with Kryptonite warheads, maybe even the return of General Zod...

If I was in charge of a Captain America movie franchise, I'd ask DC if I could use that if they're not going to (after telling them extensively about how I hate Joey Q as much as they do, since he's the reason the two companies won't be doing any business together any time soon), and I'd make sure to have the titular character explain what exactly the "American way" is in such a way that it won't offend (or just plain piss off) any reasonable people. I can understand them not wanting to use that for Superman in this era, but at the same time I can easily see them using it in a non-nationalistic context. In any case, they didn't do it well. "All that jazz." Yeah, that's real witty.

For real. I mean, it's not like it's "Truth, Justice, And Slapping Japanese People." The American Way is a completely subjective saying and could be interpreted as anything from "dissent is the highest form of patriotism" to "my country, right or wrong." If someone can't hear "American" and imagine it in a positive context, what business do they have watching a movie financied by Americans, written by Americans, directed by an American, with a cast of Americans, and then distributed by Americans based on a character who was created by American immigrants and owned by an American comic book company?
 
Right, so here's my idea for a Superman sequel, since at this point they've already restarted the franchise as much as they're going to (for which I'm very happy to have the Superman universe no longer include Richard Pryor or a solar-powered Nuclear Man).

We pick up a couple of days after Superman Returns. Superman, in a lead spacesuit (he said, borrowing from the animated series) retrieves the Kryptonian crystals from the asteroid and gives it a kick for good measure, sending it fast on its way out of the solay system.

SUPERMAN: Maybe now the tides will get back to normal.

He looks back down at Earth and uses his telescopic vision to see that the beginnings of a tsunami have already started. He flies down to deal with it, but we don't go with him. Instead, we soar through the stars as the credits roll in Superman-style, until finally we reach the Skullship, deep in the void of space. Yes, THAT Skullship.

Brainiac laments the lack of a breakthrough in his experiments to his repairman/beta tester and organic sidekick (because even evil sentient computers need someone to bounce exposition off), Koko, a monkey-like alien. And yes, I know Koko is a wacky Silver Age plot device, but I trust everyone involved can make him, if not cool, then at least not embarrassing. Koko is a prisoner of Brainiac who's forced to check for errors and repair damage Brainiac cannot himself correct. He's basically there so that Brainiac can try to understand the "human" condition. As Brainiac explains it, he's a control sample. Brainiac constantly and cruelly makes him think he's about to die, just to see his reaction.

Once, long ago, someone asked Brainiac if there's life after death. Brainiac, being the literal sort, observed people on their deathbed to gauge their reactions to death. Then he started killing people. Then he started destroying entire worlds to see how civilizations as a whole would react to destruction. Everywhere he goes, the reaction is the same. Attempts at appeasement, denial, fear, panic, insanity, etc.

Then he (it?) picks up the gravity of the Kryptonian continent passing through space. He tracks it back to Earth, where his sensors pick up an excess of neutrinos (particles related to time, Brainiac says that the local time-space continuum has been pushed nearly to the breaking point, like a black hole, explaining why Superman doesn't reverse time because the effect is cumulative).

BRAINIAC: Earth has nowhere near the resources necessary to develop interplanetary projectile weaponry. They're only a sixth-level intelligence.

KOKO: Then you're twice as smart as one of them?

BRAINIAC: No. All of them PUT TOGETHER are a sixth-level intelligence.

Then his sensors pick up traces of Kryptonian "exhaust gas."

BRAINIAC: It could only mean one thing.

KOKO: You mean...

BRAINIAC: The son of Jor-El yet lives. A Kryptonian raised by... "humans." I wonder how he will react to his deletion.

They set course for Earth, where they find traces of Kryptonian radiation. Naturally, it's coming from the guy who's been exposed to Kryponite the longest... Lex Luthor. Brainiac cloaks his ship and lands on that desert island where Lex and Kitty are still trapped. He tests humans' reaction to death by killing Kitty in cold blood.

KITTY: Lex, do something!

LEX: Why?

Then Brainiac begins to interrogate Lex as to Kryptonian technology.

KOKO: This is pointless. Just kill him and be done with it. We're not getting any closer to Kal-El.

Needless to say, this sets Luthor off and he quickly wheels and deals his way into Brainiac's good graces by promising him Kal-El. Lex explains that if Brainiac can't detect Kal-El right now, it's probably because he's in the Fortress of Solitude and shielded from his probes.

BRAINIAC: Earth custom would dictate an expression of gratitude at this point. "Thank you." Your modification from biological unit to biological waste will be as smooth as possible and added to my databanks for future edification.

LEX: Wait, wait! Just give me five minutes.

BRAINIAC: Minutes?

LEX: (immediately) 1/535680 of the time it takes for this planet to rotate around the sun... roughly.

He explains that the light of the yellow sun gives Superman god-like powers and, moreover, that he has the support of all the world's nations behind him. "The UN made him a citizen of every country on the globe." But, Lex says with a glimmer in his eye, "you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."

Brainiac extends claws from his hand before Lex waves him off. Separate Superman from his adoring public, Lex explains, and he's powerless. He needs the mindless adulation of the unwashed masses or he's just a guy in silly tights. It took five years for this to happen naturally, but Lex can do it in two. Brainiac says this is inefficent.

LEX: On the contrary, it's scientific. I've met him, guy has a martyr complex the side of this island. You kill him, blip, it's over, just like that. Not very satisfying, trust me, I've thought about it. But you break him first... then we'll see what really beats in that alien heart he's draped a red cape of humanity over.

Brainiac accepts.

Cut to a few years later (whenever the film is released to you and me). Lex has invested what remains of his fortune and, with Brainiac's help (alien technology patents, manipulating the stock market with a twelfth-level intellect), has made himself a billionaire. Still obsessed with land, he's made himself a mover and shaker in Metropolis and basically owns the entire city. He's also pulled a Rupert Murdock and made his own news organization to compete with the Daily Planet, Lex News, as well as formed a special interest group, Citizens Concerned About Alien Influence (CRAAL, pronounced "crawl"), to basically muck-rake Superman.

On a morning talk show on Lex News, Lex argues with guest Lois Lane about Superman.

LEX: You see a savior, I see an unreliable alien that's keeping us from reaching our full potential. I see us becoming more and more dependant on him to solve our problems, human problems... and I can't help but wonder what happens if and when he cuts out for another five years? Or longer? Or forever?

Lex goes on to imply that Superman framed him for the nuclear weapons plot and asks what if Superman is just the vanguard for an alien invasion, name-dropping that there have been sightings of "strange beings" in St. Roch, Coast City, Central City, etc. Maybe with a few blurry "Bigfoot" style pictures of superheroes just for fun.

Cut to Clark Kent watching this at the Daily Planet, where he looks guilty. A lot of the public has lost faith in him and a Lex News poll shows his approval ratings down. "Up next," Cat Grant, the Lex News anchor, announces. "A special on the damage Superman could do if he went rogue using the very latest in special effects technology."

However, this is a Superman movie, not a "Clark Kent has angst" movie, so we zoom in on Kent's ear as he hears "Help, Superman!" He checks with his x-ray vision... people in the elevator, two interns necking in the supply room... and finally takes the stairs at superspeed, the gray blur of his suit transitioning smoothly into red, blue, and yellow.

In a museum, a gang of high-tech banditos (maybe led by a minor Superman villain doing a cameo), steal several gems... and a sample of Kryptonite inside a translucent lead display. They smash the sample with a sledgehammer, takes a finger-sized chunk, saying "This is all we need."

Superman flies through the city. "Look, it's a bird!" and so on.

On the roof of the museum, the gang loads their loot into a helicopter gunship. One technician installs the Kryponite fragment into a strange-looking cannon installed on the nose.

Then they hear the sonic boom of Superman approaching.

TECHNICIAN: It's not ready yet!

LEADER-CAMEO-VILLAIN-GUY: Then we'll have to buy some time, won't we?

He detonates some explosives in the foundations of a monument (ala "the Washington") on the other side of the city. Superman's eyes glow red with anger, but he abandons the thieves to save the collapsing monument. He catches it before it falls into traffic, pushes it back into place, then freezes the foundation with his Arctic Breath. This done, he grabs a cement truck and squeezes it like a tube of glue, replacing the ice with cement which he then drys with heatvision. Bam, the tower is as good as new. Superman polishes a smidge off it with his cape and goes after the thieves, who are getting away in the gunship.

What follows is a spectacular dogfight between Superman and the helicopter through the urban canyons of Metropolis. The helicopter has a Kryponite laser which weakens Superman for the missiles and miniguns of the helicopter. Superman uses his X-ray vision, looking for something made of lead. He finds the sewers. Lex Luthor got a contract to renovate them and made them out of lead to spite Superman. Supes rips up a sheet of metal and uses it as a shield to get close enough to grab it by the tail and spin it around, trying to nauseate the thieves into surrender. The leader opens up the laser and takes out the Kryponite, throwing it at Superman.

It hits and Superman is weakened, letting go of the helicopter. It crashes into a skyscraper under construction. Superman rescues some workers and the thieves, but the skyscraper is pretty banged up.

A limo arrives. Lex's new, not-annoying hot babe sidekick, MERCY GRAVES, opens up a lead ringbox and hands him a Kryponite ring (Lex: Amazing the things you can find on E-bay). She's a fanatic who came up through the ranks of CRAAL and, as Lex explains, "she has a conscience I can buy."

Lex goes to confront Superman, taunting him to keep his distance and demanding to be reimbursed for the damage to "the new Lexcorp Tower" or he'll sue.

SUPERMAN: Sorry, left my wallet in my other tights. But if you'll give me a minute...

In a pure Silver Age moment, he flies deep below the sea, to a sunken ship wreck, grabs a treasure chest, and drops it in front of Lex. Lex's eyes go wide as Kal-El hands him a ruby.

SUPERMAN: That should cover the damages. I'm sure you'll see that the rest goes back to the proper owners. It was a Spanish galleon, seventeenth century I believe, but I didn't get a good look.

He flies off, leaving Lex to simmer. Or tries to. He has to embarrassingly walk a few more meters away from the Kryptonite before he can "up, up, and away."

More to come.
 
I don't have it in me right now to do a point-by-point dissection of this (which I'm sure you're sorry to hear), but here are my initial thoughts on your write-up:

Overall, I like this a lot. I'm not very knowledgable about Brainiac, so I can't really gauge how faithful your concept is or is not, but my current reaction is that your rendition of him is very interesting and very creepy.

There's a syndicate of high-tech criminals in Superman mythology called Intergang, isn't there? You could probably model your gang of "high-tech banditos" on that and give them the name.

The one thing that stands out as a problem is the gangster on the gunship pulling a chunk of Kryptonite out of the laser cannon, throwing it and hitting Superman when his target is spinning the helicopter around at the time. How is that supposed to work? Also, I'm guessing that your concept of Kryptonite is not only much more effective than that of 'Superman Returns' (which it damn well should be), but by far more effective than in most other versions, since merely getting hit in the air by a finger-sized fragment of Kryptonite (which would immediately fall to the ground, making actual contact for probably less than a full second) strikes me as not enough to weaken Superman significantly, much less when thrown by a human being who shouldn't even be able to throw accurately. That's my one major criticism here. Pretty much everything else looks fine, and I'd like it if we got something like that in a future movie (with a better costume, too!).

Good work, Zev. Sorry I don't feel up to commenting on all the stuff I like (which is almost all of it) right now. Thanks for posting. :up:

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
I don't have it in me right now to do a point-by-point dissection of this (which I'm sure you're sorry to hear), but here are my initial thoughts on your write-up:

Overall, I like this a lot. I'm not very knowledgable about Brainiac, so I can't really gauge how faithful your concept is or is not, but my current reaction is that your rendition of him is very interesting and very creepy.

I don't either, but almost everything about him comes from the animated series aside from his motivation. Pre-Crisis it was "Honey, I shrunk the major city" and TAS it was gathering information and destroying the civilization that created it because that way the information would be more valuable. Post-Crisis he was some sort of psychic in a circus. His motivation I came up with just because I thought it would be cool and logical for the character.

There's a syndicate of high-tech criminals in Superman mythology called Intergang, isn't there? You could probably model your gang of "high-tech banditos" on that and give them the name.

Probably. What's the name of their leader, Manheim?

The one thing that stands out as a problem is the gangster on the gunship pulling a chunk of Kryptonite out of the laser cannon, throwing it and hitting Superman when his target is spinning the helicopter around at the time. How is that supposed to work? Also, I'm guessing that your concept of Kryptonite is not only much more effective than that of 'Superman Returns' (which it damn well should be), but by far more effective than in most other versions, since merely getting hit in the air by a finger-sized fragment of Kryptonite (which would immediately fall to the ground, making actual contact for probably less than a full second) strikes me as not enough to weaken Superman significantly, much less when thrown by a human being who shouldn't even be able to throw accurately. That's my one major criticism here. Pretty much everything else looks fine, and I'd like it if we got something like that in a future movie (with a better costume, too!).

The Kryponite is just powerful enough to make Superman let go of the gunship. Amend that to have Denheim just throw a switch and open the Kryptonite chamber, letting the radiation out. Add that to the small-arm fire the thugs in the gunship have to be getting out and Supes'll be forgiven for being a butterfingers.
 
Zev said:
I don't either, but almost everything about him comes from the animated series aside from his motivation. Pre-Crisis it was "Honey, I shrunk the major city" and TAS it was gathering information and destroying the civilization that created it because that way the information would be more valuable. Post-Crisis he was some sort of psychic in a circus. His motivation I came up with just because I thought it would be cool and logical for the character.



Probably. What's the name of their leader, Manheim?

Here the Wiki for Intergang.

Lex Luthor was also a member in the comics at some point, so in the movie he could be a backer for Intergang, with Morgan Edge the top-ranking leader, with various lieutenants (like "Ugly" Mannheim, who could be dealing directly with Desaad in secret, planning to take over like in the comics) commanding teams for various missions (if they're going to be that organized, which I personally would have them be).

Would you put Darkseid and Apocalypse in your franchise and have Darkseid's torturer Desaad be the one who provides Intergang with their high tech? I would. That's how they did it in the comics and that's a perfect way to bring in some real heavy hitters for Superman to eventually fight, probably in the movie after the one you're discussing (unless Brainiac isn't man enough to hold his own movie). I personally would show Desaad making deals with Morgan Edge and Darkseid in this movie

Granny Goodness took over Intergang in S:TAS after Darseid killed Mannheim, and that's a good way to lead into the various Apokalyptian gods/lieutenents of Darkseid.

I vote Kathy Bates as Granny Goodness! You know I'm right. They might want to use some traditional or digital camera tricks to make her look much taller, since Bates is only as tall as Wolverine (the realone, 5'3"), and I feel like Granny and the rest of those villains from Apokalypse (except for Desaad, who looks basically human) should be larger than most humans. It makes them scarier and more alien-looking. They should also have her wear a padded suit to make her look more battle-ready, since Granny has superhuman strength and durability, and while she usually sends the Female Furies (your big opportunity for sexy female action in the series), of whom she is the leader, she can and should so some fighting on her own.

Don't feel compelled to use my suggestions, as they are merely that.

The Kryponite is just powerful enough to make Superman let go of the gunship. Amend that to have Denheim just throw a switch and open the Kryptonite chamber, letting the radiation out. Add that to the small-arm fire the thugs in the gunship have to be getting out and Supes'll be forgiven for being a butterfingers.

All better now! :up:

:wolverine
 
Posted this in another thread and thought it might be ok in here

My brief outline would have been Superman Returning like in SR but with no connection to the Donner movie

While Supes was away Lexcorp has grown even bigger and Superman's arch rival Lex Luthor is making inroads into the political arena and is looking to get a seat in the senate
Lois is investigating Lex's move into politics and is planning to write an expose'

Lex could try to kill her using the plane sequence from the film,but Superman saves her

we then have a face off with him and Lex high up on the balcony of his penthouse offices at Lexcorp where Superman basically lets Lex know he is back and is watching him

Lex see's he has to deal with a problem he thought was gone and makes a call to his labs letting them know that he wants the tests moved forward
We then see him in the labs talking to his scientists and they say that they have a subject ready to try the super soldier kryptonite powered battlesuit design on that Lex was planning to sell to the military............the subject is a shot up bank robber John Corben
 
Right, Herr, I know the whole Richard White thing isn't your favorite plot point in the world (that would be organic webbing), it's too big to drop and besides, I liked it. So, on the chick flick side of things, Richard finally gets Lois to give in and set a date. She says she’s been dreading this moment, because she swore she wouldn’t let them get married without telling him the truth.

She tells him about Jason.

Richard just shuts down. Doesn’t say a word, just storms out of the house, gets in his car, and drives. Lois knows better than to go after him.

Meanwhile, Brainiac disguises himself as one "Milton Fine" and walks the Earth doing creepy and villainous things so we don't forget about him and his thanatotic obsession, gauging the world's feelings towards Superman. Although some are suspicious, most accept that he's exactly who he appears to be.

Downloading the sum of the world's knowledge into his Skullship, Brainiac watches scenes of devastation, murder, genocide, and war on his viewscreen. He takes in the horrific violence with blank curiosity.

BRAINIAC: Alone among all the creatures in the cosmos, these humans seem determined to wipe themselves out without my intervention. How fascinating.

KOKO: Don't underestimate them. There must be a reason Jor-El chose this planet for his only son.

That pisses Brainiac off something fierce, for reasons we'll see later. He stimulates the neural circuitry (similar to Brainiac's three-circuit symbol) on Koko's head, causing him to hallucinate that he's being boiled in acid. Brainiac asks if Koko would accept death to stop the pain and, as always, Koko refuses.

KOKO: Life is the most important thing there is. No amount of pain can take its flavor away from me.

Brainiac stops the torture and turns back to the viewscreen, where he watches stock footage of a nuclear explosion.

BRAINIAC: "I am become Death, Destroyer of Worlds." I think that shall be this world's epithet in my database.

For the purposes of continuity, let's amend the "a few years after Superman Returns" to "a few months." Lex Luthor is more of an overnight success story and Clark and Lois are investigating him, trying to prove he's using underhanded means to gain his super-fortune.

Lois gets a meeting with Superman. Tells him that the amnesia kiss is wearing off, bits and pieces of her memory are returning to her. She knows he didn’t date-rape her, she doesn’t know who he is... not yet anyway. Superman says he has no right to be a part of her life, no right to be part of Jason’s life.

That, then, is our romantic subplot. The last temptation of Superman. The love he thought lost forever is waiting for him, staring him in the face, and all he has to do to get it is sell out a good man.

But the next building over, we see Mercy Graves with one of those Veronica Mars long-range recorders. She's taped the whole conversation. Lex airs a recut version which makes it seem as if Superman did rape Lois. Although both Lois and Superman deny it, just the news of a human-Kryptonian hybrid sends shockwaves. Lex whips the latent xenophobia of the masses into a quasi-nationalistic frenzy, a twisted mirror version of the "American way" that Superman fights for.

A group of bullies pick a fight with Jason, who is severely beaten before he jumps away... one of those “tall buildings in a single bound” jumps. He lands on someone’s car, totalling it. All around him, people back away from the small, bruised child shivering in the middle of a car wreck.

Lex schedules a political rally to capitalize on the "Super-scandal" and annouce his candidacy for governor. Mercy says that although Superman's taken a downturn in the polls, he'll bounce back up soon. The majority still supports him despite their muck-raking spin. Lex picks up a red telephone in his office

In his Skullship, Brainiac indulges Luthor. He walks to a vault of embryonic lifeforms, shrunken down to fit inside miniture wombs by a neutrino ray (remember, that's "time goes backwards" particles). In a nod to the comics, Koko sarcastically calls it "the Bottle City of Kandor."

BRAINIAC: (picking up an egg with a pair of tongs) This Kryptonian Droth Beast, upon maturing from its larval stage and being exposed to the yellow sun of Earth, will gain the same powers enjoyed by Kal-El.

KOKO: Only more so, because it's natural form is stronger than a Kryptonian!

BRAINIAC: Precisely.

Placing the egg in a birthing matrix, Brainiac launches the monster to Earth. In the middle of Metropolis, citizens gather around the strange crater that's land in the equivalent of Time Square. The egg, exposed to the yellow sun, rapidly goes through its gestation phase and hatches, unleashing an elephant-sized monster that looks like a cross between a tick and a hyena.

TITANO: SUPERMANNNNNNN!

Superman fights the massive beast in a brawl through the city. It's like one of us trying to wrestle a bear. All the while, Lex makes a "breaking news" bulletin, saying that Superman attracts these kinds of menaces to Metropolis as sort of a challenge. Enemies will come from all over the universe to take a shot at the Man of Steel.

Superman tries to get some distance from Titano, but it leaps after him and bares him down on the ground. On the Metropolis Jumbotron, Lex Luthor opens his buttondown shirt, Superman style, to reveal his platform... a Superman S-Shield with a slash through it. "Ban the S."

Extending a probocis, Titano pierces Superman's no-longer-unbreakable skin and begins to drain his blood. Just then, Maggie Sawyer and the Metropolis SCU comes onto the scene in Lexcorp-brand weapon suit (purple and green, natch). They shoot Titano down, killing it. Flabbergasted, Superman allows his wounds to be bandaged by EMTs and asks how their weapons were able to affect it. Almost apologetically, Maggie reveals a laser-scope like attachment on her rifle which shines red sun radiation on whatever it targets. It was developed in case Superman ever went rogue.

Things go from bad to worse. Brainiac infected Titano with a bioweapon before he unleashed it, Superman has caught tthe Kryptonian equivalent of bird flu, the Kryptonian Plague. As the carrier, he’s immune, but everyone he touches gets sick. And the first one to fall ill is Jason.

Lexcorp makes millions selling vaccines and treatments for the Plague. Superman resolves to exile himself when Luthor’s men (using Brainiac equipment) find evidence of Kryptonian technology readings in Kansas. The spaceship hidden on the Kent farm. Lex refuses to believe that Superman could possibly have a human disguise (anyone remember what his post-Crisis reasoning on this way, because I know the general details but not the specifics).

Brainiac doesn't share his concern. As Milton Fine, he goes to Kansas and stalks Martha Kent, pretending to be a stranded motorist until she figures out his game. Martha tries to call Superman, but Fine is too fast. He drops the human disguise and grabs her by the throat, asking her the same question he's asked Koko so many times.

BRAINIAC: Are you afraid to die?

Superman gets there just in time to see Brainiac absorb his spaceship.

BRAINIAC: Indeed, this is Kryptonian technology. That would make you... the Last Son of Krypton. But the crystals have been removed, all the information in the archives... where is it!?

SUPERMAN: Where's Martha Kent?

BRAINIAC: Cease your feeble attempts to maintain this pretense of humanity, Kal-El... or should I say Clark Kent? Your deception may work on these primates you associate with, but I am the Pride of Colu, a twelfth-level intelligence.

SUPERMAN: Where is she!?

BRAINIAC: Halfway between here and the next world by now.

Enraged, Superman tries to attack Brainiac, who abandons his humanform body to download his consciousness back into his proper android form. As Superman rushes to save Martha, we see a chunk of RED KRYPTONITE in the remains of Milton Fine's body...

By the way, any thoughts on who should play Brainiac/Fine or Mercy Graves?
 
Faithfulness to the comics aside, did any of you two think Superman Returns was a good MOVIE?
 
Zev said:
By the way, any thoughts on who should play Brainiac/Fine or Mercy Graves?
Rutger Hauer and Linda Hamilton.
 
Jakomus said:
Faithfulness to the comics aside, did any of you two think Superman Returns was a good MOVIE?

I thought it was great. Aside from a few quibbles, it's right up there with the greats in the genre as well as the Donner films.
 
Zev said:
Right, Herr, I know the whole Richard White thing isn't your favorite plot point in the world (that would be organic webbing), it's too big to drop and besides, I liked it. So, on the chick flick side of things, Richard finally gets Lois to give in and set a date. She says she’s been dreading this moment, because she swore she wouldn’t let them get married without telling him the truth.

She tells him about Jason.

Richard just shuts down. Doesn’t say a word, just storms out of the house, gets in his car, and drives. Lois knows better than to go after him.

So, you are keeping Richard White and Jason. From this segment, am I to take it that you're having Richard exit, never to come back?

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
So, you are keeping Richard White and Jason. From this segment, am I to take it that you're having Richard exit, never to come back?

:wolverine

No. Because you remember in the old Superman 3, when they had Lois and Lex disappear and suddenly we had Lana Lang and that guy who's name I can't even remember, but he was played by Robert Vaughn? Remember how much that sucked, because you're wondering "Hey, where's Lois? And where's Lex Luthor? I don't want Richard Pryor, I mean he's a good comedian, but what's he doing in a Superman movie? What's with all these painfully unfunny jokes? When is Lex Luthor going to try to destroy Superman? Why is Clark making kissy-faces at Lana when he just said he can never have a normal life with a woman? Oh, wait, now Superman's evil, that's pretty cool... wait, now it's sucking again. Sigh."

What was my point? Oh yeah. That would be the second laziest way to resolve a love triangle, the first laziest being to kill one of the angles of the love triangle, leaving the remaining angles to get together. Unless it's the sole man or the sole woman, in which case it's kinda edgy and hip. Or if Daredevil was in a love triangle with Karen Page and Elektra and he died and then Karen and Elektra got together, that would be pretty novel. I mean, it would suck, but it would have lesbians too, so it couldn't be all that bad.

In conclusion, I totally want to see Karen Page and Elektra get it on in a Daredevil movie.
 
Zev said:
No. Because you remember in the old Superman 3, when they had Lois and Lex disappear and suddenly we had Lana Lang and that guy who's name I can't even remember, but he was played by Robert Vaughn? Remember how much that sucked, because you're wondering "Hey, where's Lois? And where's Lex Luthor? I don't want Richard Pryor, I mean he's a good comedian, but what's he doing in a Superman movie? What's with all these painfully unfunny jokes? When is Lex Luthor going to try to destroy Superman? Why is Clark making kissy-faces at Lana when he just said he can never have a normal life with a woman? Oh, wait, now Superman's evil, that's pretty cool... wait, now it's sucking again. Sigh."

What was my point? Oh yeah. That would be the second laziest way to resolve a love triangle, the first laziest being to kill one of the angles of the love triangle, leaving the remaining angles to get together. Unless it's the sole man or the sole woman, in which case it's kinda edgy and hip. Or if Daredevil was in a love triangle with Karen Page and Elektra and he died and then Karen and Elektra got together, that would be pretty novel. I mean, it would suck, but it would have lesbians too, so it couldn't be all that bad.

In conclusion, I totally want to see Karen Page and Elektra get it on in a Daredevil movie.

Gotta preserve the completely superfluous and completely absent from the comics love triangle, do you?

*sigh*

Have at it then. Just when I was starting to care about this place again...

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Gotta preserve the completely superfluous and completely absent from the comics love triangle, do you?

*sigh*

Have at it then. Just when I was starting to care about this place again...

:wolverine

Oh, you can't even pretend to care? Now I know I have a heart, 'cause you done gone and broke it!

As I've explained, characters, powers, even Kryponite have been added by other multimedia adaptations. Can you imagine anyone calling Jimmy Olsen or Perry White "completely superfluous and completely absent from the comics Daily Planet" back when the radio serial came out?
 
Thse threads are advertised as being safe havens who demand more, but right now it just looks like they are safe havens for people who want movies that are 100% adaptions, in which case it's pretty pointless for other people to come up with their own plots, because they will all be the same.
 
Zev said:
Oh, you can't even pretend to care? Now I know I have a heart, 'cause you done gone and broke it!

As I've explained, characters, powers, even Kryponite have been added by other multimedia adaptations. Can you imagine anyone calling Jimmy Olsen or Perry White "completely superfluous and completely absent from the comics Daily Planet" back when the radio serial came out?
Jimmy and Perry have now been in the comics (you know, the medium in which Superman started out and has consistently been published from the very beginning, whereas there hasn't been a TV show, movie franchise or radio serial that has consistently continued since then? Also, the medium which I defined at the top of each Safe Haven as the medium by which "faithful" is defined? You need time to go back and read, 'cuz I can wait!) for decades now. Well, I guess they could add a Super-Bastard named Baby Jason to the comics... oh wait, Superman and Lois are married, so I guess he wouldn't be a Super-Bastard! Unless someone pulled a J. Michael Straczinsky and made Lois an unfaithful ****e just to attract the grocery check-out aisle magazine-reading demographic (which is always a possibility, God help us), there's no room in legitimate current canon for a child borne by Lois that may or may not be someone else's. If they had a movie where Lois and Superman got married and had a baby, that would probably be a stupid, sappy movie (especially if Brian "this is my first chick flick" Singer is directing it), but at least that element of it couldn't (specific circumstances notwithstanding) be called "completely unfaithful and out of synch with the comics." And don't pull any pre-Crisis excuses on me, because unless you can point out a specific issue that isn't a flat-out Elseworld's throwaway tale where Lois had a baby that she thought was someone's other than Superman's, that ain't gonna fly. I'm pretty sure Pre-Crisis canon has Superman and Lois having a baby, so that would be fine, but there probably isn't an idiotic, lowest-common-denominator love triangle there. Superman and Lois having a child is within the realm of the reasonable. Lois thinking she had someone else's child while Superman recklessly abandoned all he swore to protect is not. Not in the least.

As you probably saw in the original Safe Haven thread, I may have to give up my Kingdom to someone else, possibly you if you win a vote. If that happens, then you can butcher this thread franchise into whatever you want and take a leak on my grave while doing so, but until then, or if there isn't a "then," stop defending choices that aren't faithful to the comics!

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Jimmy and Perry have now been in the comics (you know, the medium in which Superman started out and has consistently been published from the very beginning, whereas there hasn't been a TV show, movie franchise or radio serial that has consistently continued since then? Also, the medium which I defined at the top of each Safe Haven as the medium by which "faithful" is defined? You need time to go back and read, 'cuz I can wait!) for decades now. Well, I guess they could add a Super-Bastard named Baby Jason to the comics... oh wait, Superman and Lois are married, so I guess he wouldn't be a Super-Bastard! Unless someone pulled a J. Michael Straczinsky and made Lois an unfaithful ****e just to attract the grocery check-out aisle magazine-reading demographic (which is always a possibility, God help us), there's no room in legitimate current canon for a child borne by Lois that may or may not be someone else's. If they had a movie where Lois and Superman got married and had a baby, that would probably be a stupid, sappy movie (especially if Brian "this is my first chick flick" Singer is directing it), but at least that element of it couldn't (specific circumstances notwithstanding) be called "completely unfaithful and out of synch with the comics." And don't pull any pre-Crisis excuses on me, because unless you can point out a specific issue that isn't a flat-out Elseworld's throwaway tale where Lois had a baby that she thought was someone's other than Superman's, that ain't gonna fly. I'm pretty sure Pre-Crisis canon has Superman and Lois having a baby, so that would be fine, but there probably isn't an idiotic, lowest-common-denominator love triangle there. Superman and Lois having a child is within the realm of the reasonable. Lois thinking she had someone else's child while Superman recklessly abandoned all he swore to protect is not. Not in the least.

As you probably saw in the original Safe Haven thread, I may have to give up my Kingdom to someone else, possibly you if you win a vote. If that happens, then you can butcher this thread franchise into whatever you want and take a leak on my grave while doing so, but until then, or if there isn't a "then," stop defending choices that aren't faithful to the comics!

:wolverine

Bold, italics, and underlines? You're serious about this, aren't you?
 
Zev said:
Bold, italics, and underlines? You're serious about this, aren't you?

Aw, shucks... you noticed. :O



EDIT: I meant to say somewhere in my earlier post "Adding love triangles where none need be is one of the most cheap, uncreative, insipid and most low-brow writing maneuvers a screenwriter could pull!!"

I'm serious about that, but not hyped up about it enough to give it extra formatting.

:wolverine
 
But, uh... isn't the entire Superman franchise the love triangle between Clark Kent, Lois Lane, and Clark Kent?

Not to mention the love triangle between Lex, Lois, and Kal-El they had in the comics. That would've been weird to see in a sequel to the Donner pics.

But, if it makes you feel any better, just mentally CTRL-H Richard White with Jimmy Olsen, Lois' platonic photographer buddy, and Jason White with... ummm... Kara Kent. Assume she came around between movies. There, now it's completely faithful to the comics.

Next time, I'll show you how Superman gets a new costume and becomes Superman Blue. And Clark gets a mullet.

Which is also faithful to the comics.

And people wonder why Batman is more popular than Superman...
 

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