World SPIDER-MAN: Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

DACrowe said:
I also would like to say organic webbing....I think it works better for the movies, not because it was in the movies but selling that an 18 year-old made them with no money is....well I just think organic webbing would save time and logic for a film. Then again I am being biased as at the same time I would like the costume (though I am not a director or costume designer so my say would be nigh) to look cool. Raised webbing or not I don't want it to be done with a magic marker. I know he reality he would but it just would be so cheesy if for 4 out of 5 films (or in the real franchise, 2 out of 3) for him to be wearing something that looks like would be in the bargain bin of costumes at Target.

Do not ever make statements like these in any Safe Haven thread again. This argument has been made countless times in countless threads and is unequivocally in opposition to the concept of "faithfulness." You are not allowed to make the argument that Spider-Man has not possessed mechanical webshooters for the majority of his existence in various media, since that is a lie and an insult on those who know better. Therefore, mechanical webshooters must be deemed faithful, and you have written off that aspect of the mythos. That is not allowed in here, period. No discussion, no argument, just acknowledge and act accordingly.
It is a valid point to raise about the costume meshing with the web-shooters, but getting rid of the web-shooters is never the right solution if it is to be a faithful.

The only way I would even consider tolerating this (and that may never be the case anyway) is if you had devoted an even larger amount of text to truly criticizing something signficant in the Spider-Man movies (visual/audio gags don't cut it... not nearly), and I don't see that. Granted, I haven't the focus needed to carefully read your entire story layout, and I will do so as soon as I'm up to it.

Anyway, bottom line, you will minimize-- if not leave out completely-- all statements that describe long-standing elements of the source material as "cheesy," "unrealistic," and so forth. That's not a request. We have clearance to be here and be free of such offensive propaganda in this and all other Safe Haven threads.
Do not bother criticizing me or this thread simply because you don't adhere to its philosophy, as that is trolling and I haven't made any personal attacks on you yet. I apologize to everyone if this sounds unreasonable, but I've been given ample reason by several posters to be more defensive and less open to the whims of those who don't "get it." It's Zero Tolerance, kids. Love it or leave it. You say "faithful" is a subjective term? Sure is, but we're not debating it here. Read the rules again and pay close attention to the part that says "you either belong here or you don't." This is the "uncool kids" table. If that's not your kind of scene, go eat lunch with the "cool kids."

DACrowe, I honestly do appreciate the time you put into the rest of your post and will review it soon-- barring any other conflicts that come up between us in the meantime.

:wolverine
 
DACrowe said:
I suppose an interesting thread.
You can "suppose" less condescendingly than that. You can. I believe in you.

I myself enjoy Raimi's films immensely and think he has made an overall quite ogod adaptation to the screen, however they are not without their flaws as films (certain visual gags sound....distracting, for example like GG saying "Oh" before getting impaled or Aunt May catching herself on an Angel statue with her umbrella) and in story (how many ****ing times is MJ gonna' get kidnapped?) but overall I enjoy them.

As for faithfulness, well that is a very subjective subject now ain't it? ;)
As I said, we're not going to argue or discuss the meaning of "faithfulness." There are very, very few people I'd debate that with in here, and nobody should expect it.

I myself would have done it differently and probably more faithful to the overall comic book but I think some changes I would not have made benefitted Raimi's movies greatly, while others felt like a bit of a lazy decision on David Koepp's part (making MJ more homely and modest). But for discussion's sake my general outline for the franchise would've been a deeply more expanded version of what we got in many respects:

Spider-Man 1:
Pete is 18 in high school gets the power and the origin would've played a lot to how it did in the film (I love it being a hijacking instead of a burglary, makes more sense, but I admit I probably wouldn't have thought of that). He gets his powers on a field trip to Columbia from a radioactive spider. Yadda, yadda. However, there are two women he is attracted to. One being Gwen Stacy, the reluctant girlfriend of high school jock and bully Flash Thompson, and the girl next door that Aunt May sets Pete up with halfway through the origin, MJ (whose roll is far more over the top and senual and fun. She kinda' convinces Pete to embrace his more selfish sides helping lead to his confidence and anger of letting the thieve go).

[Inappropriate Content-- we've covered this, we need never speak of it again]

The villain would be Doc Ock whose main goal would be the same but it is his ambition and cruelty that makes him wish to do it. He is ultimately a monster who wants to be recognized. Molian is pitch perfect but he is far less likeable and at the end he is tricked into helping save the city when he goes after to save his work from being destroyed. Despite MJ and Peter getting along she is flirting with Pete's only real friend Harry too and at the end he begins his courtship of Gwen Stacy. He is starting to date her, while still being on again/off again with the flirtatous (thoug she should never seem like a ***** or a ****, just a fun-loving girl) MJ.

All the while Harry's father Norman is in the background abusing Harry and obsessed with his work. He would also have been Otto's employer and drove Otto to such desperate circumstnaces that led to his accident.

Sounds much more faithful with regard to Mary Jane's character and Doc Ock. Good work.

Spider-Man 2: This would be Peter finally making things work and be really half a love story between him and Gwen as he finally chooses Gwen over MJ. MJ becames flaky and mean to Peter for this and dates Harry to get to Peter. At the same time, we have Norman do his experiment and gets the power he needs (again very much like in the first movie) but goes insane.

The Goblin costume for the record would be prosthetics instead of robo-mask though.

At first I would like a mirror conversation but as the story progresses the two personalities would merge. And by the third act he is no longer split but one twisted mother****er. He does offer Spider-Man a choice to join him but when it is turned down he merely figures out who Spidey is and is hurt (as he shows admiration for Peter while abusing Harry mentally) and wants revenge. He does put Aunt May in the hospital but downright injures her.

At the end the GG reveals his identity while at a formal birthday party for Harry (one that starts going bad when MJ breaks up with Harry and gets his anguish and she also gets Peter's disrespect) he subtely reveals he knows who Spidey is. The two end up duking it out before Norman can reveal it to to everyone at the Osborn Mansion and Peter is dragged along in the famous aSM #39 shot. It ends with Peter escaping and Norman says he has followed the wooman Pete loves for sometime and it is now he is going to finish what he started.

Peter runs to Aunt May in the hospital thinking he means her but Goblin doesn't show. A phone call comes for Peter and it is the line in the first movie followed by Gwen screaming (at this point Pete is all but engaged to Gwen). Peter goes to the Brooklyn Bridge and aSM #121 plays out and I rather like the brutal climax used in SM1 but much darker after Gwen's death. At the end MJ comforts Pete despite his anger and outbursts ala #122 and she takes him to Gwen's grave after having the bigger funeral for Harry's father, Norman. MJ is there for Pete (no love yet though) but he still walks away alone in a more negative ending.
Still going strong with MJ's characterization and Peter's typical reactions to her often umseemly behavior. Green Goblin seems like one nasty sum'b1tch in this.

Questions about the Green Goblin:
  1. Does the Goblin have a specific plan or plans for which he'd actually require or warrant taking Spider-Man on as an ally?
  2. How does the Goblin figure out who Spider-Man really is?
Additional question:
  1. Does Captain George Stacy play any significant part in this movie?
Good stuff. :up:

Spider-Man 3:
I'm going to save time and just say that this is the Spider-Man: No More storyline (and yes more like in the movie) as he and MJ get close but because of Gwen and Spidey he pushes her away. All the while his professor has turned into a monster. Pete doesn't realize it until as Parker he finds out from Martha and Billy Conners what is going on (even after sparring with the Lizard before quitting a few times). This way his origin is done in flashback though we see Doc Conners in the first act of the movie. And he will be the first sympathetic villain really. Octavious is an obsessed fanatic if you will and Osborn was an ******* before donning the costume. Conners is truly sad as he was once a healer until Vietnam took his arm before he could begin his career and he had become cynical of man and Lizard is his dark side and view of humanity formed.

He realizes that Conners (after attacking his own family and scarring Billy to get a blood sample) is trying to cure himself but will kill himself instead. In the first he had to save the city from Ock, in the second his friends from GG and in the third though he is having to save a villain from himself. Between this and the Aunt May subplot he can't pursue the relationship he has started with a deeper and now more developed MJ. She keeps pushing him though because after the first act there is love even with Gwen gone, between them.

Spidey inevitably goes to the sewers to face the Lizard's machines and savagry. Que what I think shoud be the equivalent of ASM #367. Spider-Man tries to reason with Lizard to save him and instead Lizard buries him under a trainstation. He has to lift it (a la ASM #33) and dislocates his arm doing it. He makes a web-sling for himself in his last ditch ever to save Liz from going into the machine....but he FAILS. Conners has ruined his family though and maybe should die at the end anyway (a stray from the comics) but showing the burden of pursuing your interests and having love can do. Seeing the Conners family ruined, destroys Pete. At the end Pete breaks up whatever was starting with MJ and this time she is the one left in tears.
You really do have a lot of comics knowledge. :up:

Nice set-up of the themes and plot surrounding the Lizard's part in the movie. Very nice.

Lizard questions:
  1. How different is the Lizard persona from Connors' regular personality? Is he merely a more aggressive and unstable version of himself? Does the Lizard speak, and if so, does he address himself as a separate entity from Conners?
  2. Does the Lizard persona have a particular goal for himself, or is he trying to turn himself normal as soon as he realizes what's happened to him?
Additional questions:
  1. What Aunt May subplot? You mentioned it offhand, but there's nothing else that addresses it.
  2. Will Spider-Man suffer a stress-induced, psychosomatic power loss, or will he simply refrain from Spidey action when he "quits"?
Spider-Man 4:

Harry Osborn goes mad and hires Sandman to kill Peter Parker. Sandman and Spidey do battle and so on. We also have Pete and MJ's relationship going sour as she moves on to get married. She ends up confronting him about their relationship but he won't make a move. Meanwhile, Sandman helps Harry unmask Peter and after knowing the truth he finds his father's lair the same way. Sandman seems like a careless thug in this one who escapes as we hurddle into the third act. Harry meanwhile goes insane and takes the formula. SM2's story with MJ finding out plays similar but much darker as it is brother vs. brother, MJ is engaged and Peter tries to talk her out of it but can't offer a good enough alternative. Harry then leaves an exploding Spider-Man in MJ's bed freaking her out and Peter finds Harry (after sparring with Harry and barely surviving at the beginning of the third act) helping Aunt May with her laundry. At the end Harry kidnaps MJ and will kill her to punish them for betraying him as friends. However in a fight in the burning Osborn Mansion (the past burns down) MJ is going to be crushed and Peter breaks his "momentous climax" which Harry has engineered to soothe the Norman spirit in his head (he acts more as if this is a movie than himself). Harry comes to his senses and sees that Peter can't hold it alone and his only friends will be crushed. Harry dies a hero saving MJ and Peter holding up a collapsing building for them to get out from under it and letting himself get buried in the rubble. The last few scenes should play similar to how they did in SM2, all though I'm not too keen about MJ leaving loverboy standing up at the alter, however JJ's line in that would be perfect.
Sounds good. I would your version of Green Goblin Jr. would have a real Goblin costume, not what we've seen is in store for our viewing displeasure come... whenever that damn movie is out.

Spider-Man 5:

Peter and MJ get engaged. Relationship problems abound. Pete gets symbiote. He is fighting Sandman still who got away from the last film. Sandman is revealed to hate his powers as they have given him cancer (again a stray) and he just wants the pain to end and he becomes a greier character in this movie. As symbiote Spidey he really can tear into Sandman but goes too far and the symbiote kills Sandman without Pete's approval. This is around the time Peter is a complete ******* to MJ and Spidey is cruel and the Bugle claims it was right all along. He gets rid of it and get Venom like his origin story but more stalking. He captures Peter Parker when his senses aren't going off and basically scares Parker ****less. Instead of standing his ground Peter runs. Venom catches him and says he would never rip Peter apart, he'll do that to MJ. He then beats a frantic Spidey to MJ and as Brock shares a cab and a tense scene of slowly ****ing with her head and scaring her before the symbikote comes out and Venom grabs her and jumps off before Spidey gets there. He just scares her to the point of near death and tells her to give Spidey a message to meet him at an old abandoned beach mill.

MJ tells Pete in horror trying to convince him to let the police handle it but Pete feels responsible for Venom and sees himself in the monster and has to take responsibility (something he hasn't done all film) for his messes and reconnects with MJ as he goes off to his "death." Big dramatic battle. Venom dies. Yeah I said it, just to close the door and a void Carnage.

Pete stands in front of Uncle Ben's grave at the end next to May's now and comments how he has so many friends buried her over the years (and enemies), he could find his place around her in the dark. And he laments his life but shows resilence and hope for the future because their lessons have made him into a good man and he will always have great power and great responsibility. He walks away but not alone this time but to MJ and then we cut as his monologue continues to his marriag eof MJ and finally....happiness.

As I said it is just really a more expanded (Gwen, Lizard, etc) version though.
I'm assuming that Venom's threatening to kill MJ was just a bluff and that he knew just how far to push her so she'd still be alive. He may be a ruthless son of a b1tch, but Brock hardly even kills innocents, and a young, law-abiding woman without even a gun, much less superpowers, certainly qualifies as innocent. One of the best features of Venom's personality is his twisted "moral high ground" and ultimate hypocrisy.

Questions:
  1. How did Aunt May die?

As for cast I would probably make some changes but cast very similar to the real movies:

Spider-Man: Tobey Maguire

Mary Jane Watson: I dunno....this is a hard one. I don't care about hair color, dying always works but I am blanking on younger American actresses who I think have the chops to do it. Perhaps Reese Witherspoon as she was not famous back in 2001 and if they contracted her then....

Gwen Stacy: Only two filmns but she would be the primary love interest in them and I think Kirsten Dunst (who looks much better as a blonde by the way) would be just fine as her.

Green Goblin/Norman Osborn: Willem Dafoe

Doc Ock: Alfred Molina

Harry Osborn/The Green Goblin: James Franco

Dr. Conners: William H. Macy (he would be amazing and Lizard could be a CGI creation from acting like Davy Jones or Gollum or King Kong)

Sandman: Thomas Hayden Church still works fine for me.

Venom: I dunno....I think Topher Grace will be great for Sam Raimi's vision in SM3, but in all honesty I just don't think I'd cast him if I could choose. Nor would I go for the stupid cliche of getting a wrestler to play the part. Someone of average build who was over 6 feet could do it. I like the idea of Heath Ledger (even before he was the Joker), but I dunno.

Just my little what if. But as I said, though I would've done some things differently (mostly fewer cheese moments and more one liners, sassier MJ, etc.) I really am quite happy with what Raimi ihas done though.
I'd probably have chosen all the same cast members, except for the women (I haven't made up my mind about that) and Venom.
I wouldn't even consider casting Topher Grace as Eddie Brock, nor someone who was merely a wrestler. Eddie Brock is well over 6' tall and weighs over 300 lbs, so he has to be huge, no question, but there shouldn't be any real problem finding a competent actor who fits the physical profile. No more than there is finding any other actor for a role when the casting director isn't simply dialing up "who comes to mind."

William H. Macy sounds like a really good choice for Dr. Connors.

If Nicolas Brendan (Xander from 'Buffy') could still pull off the look of a teenager, he'd be my #1 choice, no question. He's absolutely perfect physically (when he keeps in shape) and in terms of his acting resume. But yeah, no chance of that happening. He could barely pass for a teen on 'Buffy,' much less now.



Thanks for posting, DACrowe. I enjoyed your treatments very much. On the condition that you heed what I said before, welcome to the Haven. :up:

:wolverine
 
Thanks. I do think for a film the [banned material] works but if you don't want it mentioned fine.

Oh and I was just pouring my thoughts out and didn't clear some things up (obviously).

Well Green Goblin's original plan is to kill everyone one-by-one who has harmed Osborn's name and he rpetty much succeeds (ticking Spider-Man off) but when Spidey stops him from assassinating JJJ and everyone in the Bugle for writing bad things about Oscorp he becomes intrigued. And when Spidey refuses to join him he decides he should destroy him for not acceptinig his wonderful gift. That is when he throws a drug bomb at Peter at the scene where Spidey declines so when Gobby follows Peter is very tired and doesn't realize his spider-sense isn't working and unmasks himself right in front of GG.

Lizard is kind of a reverse GG in some respects. He starts out as a seperate entity whose a savage monster who just wants to kill humans (though I don't want him creating Lizard men) and can speak. He has the hiss and the lisp, but he can speak, but not good english. He should speak in half-sentences. But after Peter confronts him when he is stealing equipment (for some unbeknownst purpose....plot hole? perhaps) at ESu about him having a family he shows conflict.

Then when he attacks the Conners house at the build up to the climax and takes Billy's blood he should seem more in control and speaking more coherently. And Peter figures out as he goes into the sewers that Conners has come back into play and the two are battling for the body. He tries to reason with Conners but gets a Lizard tail in his face instead.

And no, I wouldn't have him lose his powers. I liked it in SM2 and can site something similar happening in Annual Spider-Man #1, but with the different circumstances of his relationship with MJ in this oen and all, I think it would be easier to just avoid it.

The subplot I forgot to specify would be the one from SM2. I really like Peter telling Aunt May that he was responsible for Ben's death. I can't believe no writer touched that into the comics until JMS unvieled him to her recently. It would also tie into what I am going to do with her in SM5 if she gives him a cheery rising speech about heroes after he reveals what he knows.

And no Harry would not be wearing only military and snowboarding gear. He would be the Green Goblin II, though I would expect him only to wear a mask really in their first fight (as I have them fight twice) as in the second it would be more personal that it is both Pete and Harry with no masks on.

And as I forgot to mention when Peter is in his darkest and between that and not being there for MJ at a near assassination at a publicity show for a play she is doing off-Broadway (I hate soap operas) MJ and Pete temporarily broke up. Pete is living with Aunt May again and she reveals how disappointed she is in him losing his responsibility like Ben. She was so proud recently of seeing him soar through the skies she wanted to be there with him. Peter realizes she knwos and ASM #400 plays out and he takes her swinging. She is later hospitialized and dies and as Peter weeps MJ comes in and they just look at each other and she lets him cling to her and without words they are back together.

That is why after he ditches the costume for killing Sandman he hears Aunt May's words and rids himself of it. Brock would work for the Bugle to save time and his stories would be ruined by a dark Spider-Man and Peter Parker helps. He goes to church to kill himself and pray for forgivness and for God to essientially smyte Spider-Man and Peter Parker who ganged up on him when the symbiote comes to him.

And I tried to make it clear, no he was just ****ing with Pete. He just scares MJ in the cab and when he grabs her but WILL NOT actually do a single bit of physical harm. Just to get under her's and Pete's skin to weaken him. He should say I suppose before they fight that he would never hurt the innocent pretty redhead, all "THEY" want is Spider-Man's....head. And then the fight would commence.

Hope that clears it up then.
 
Oh and I really like Reese Withersppon as MJ now that I think aobut it. See Walk the Line and imagine red hair and get rid of the accent. Now that is not EXACTLY how I would have her play it but she has got that spunk though.
 
DACrowe said:
Thanks. I do think for a film the [banned material] works but if you don't want it mentioned fine.

Oh and I was just pouring my thoughts out and didn't clear some things up (obviously).

Well Green Goblin's original plan is to kill everyone one-by-one who has harmed Osborn's name and he rpetty much succeeds (ticking Spider-Man off) but when Spidey stops him from assassinating JJJ and everyone in the Bugle for writing bad things about Oscorp he becomes intrigued. And when Spidey refuses to join him he decides he should destroy him for not acceptinig his wonderful gift. That is when he throws a drug bomb at Peter at the scene where Spidey declines so when Gobby follows Peter is very tired and doesn't realize his spider-sense isn't working and unmasks himself right in front of GG.

Lizard is kind of a reverse GG in some respects. He starts out as a seperate entity whose a savage monster who just wants to kill humans (though I don't want him creating Lizard men) and can speak. He has the hiss and the lisp, but he can speak, but not good english. He should speak in half-sentences. But after Peter confronts him when he is stealing equipment (for some unbeknownst purpose....plot hole? perhaps) at ESu about him having a family he shows conflict.

Then when he attacks the Conners house at the build up to the climax and takes Billy's blood he should seem more in control and speaking more coherently. And Peter figures out as he goes into the sewers that Conners has come back into play and the two are battling for the body. He tries to reason with Conners but gets a Lizard tail in his face instead.

And no, I wouldn't have him lose his powers. I liked it in SM2 and can site something similar happening in Annual Spider-Man #1, but with the different circumstances of his relationship with MJ in this oen and all, I think it would be easier to just avoid it.

The subplot I forgot to specify would be the one from SM2. I really like Peter telling Aunt May that he was responsible for Ben's death. I can't believe no writer touched that into the comics until JMS unvieled him to her recently. It would also tie into what I am going to do with her in SM5 if she gives him a cheery rising speech about heroes after he reveals what he knows.

And no Harry would not be wearing only military and snowboarding gear. He would be the Green Goblin II, though I would expect him only to wear a mask really in their first fight (as I have them fight twice) as in the second it would be more personal that it is both Pete and Harry with no masks on.

And as I forgot to mention when Peter is in his darkest and between that and not being there for MJ at a near assassination at a publicity show for a play she is doing off-Broadway (I hate soap operas) MJ and Pete temporarily broke up. Pete is living with Aunt May again and she reveals how disappointed she is in him losing his responsibility like Ben. She was so proud recently of seeing him soar through the skies she wanted to be there with him. Peter realizes she knwos and ASM #400 plays out and he takes her swinging. She is later hospitialized and dies and as Peter weeps MJ comes in and they just look at each other and she lets him cling to her and without words they are back together.

That is why after he ditches the costume for killing Sandman he hears Aunt May's words and rids himself of it. Brock would work for the Bugle to save time and his stories would be ruined by a dark Spider-Man and Peter Parker helps. He goes to church to kill himself and pray for forgivness and for God to essientially smyte Spider-Man and Peter Parker who ganged up on him when the symbiote comes to him.

And I tried to make it clear, no he was just ****ing with Pete. He just scares MJ in the cab and when he grabs her but WILL NOT actually do a single bit of physical harm. Just to get under her's and Pete's skin to weaken him. He should say I suppose before they fight that he would never hurt the innocent pretty redhead, all "THEY" want is Spider-Man's....head. And then the fight would commence.

Hope that clears it up then.

God damnit... I wrote a somewhat more lengthy response to this (positive feedback) and I accidentally deleted the window before my slow-ass computer fully sent the post. Feckin' machine...

Okay, the bottom line is, good stuff.

Two questions:
  1. What's in it for Spider-Man if he helps the Goblin kill his enemies? Is he meant to be paid?
  2. Does Peter earn back some good will with Aunt May before she died, or does he merely try and fail?
:wolverine
 
Abaddon said:
It would definitely have to be someone who respects the comics,and has the imagination and ambition(though not too much) to pull it off.

Any director who is actually talented in his/her field could pull off making a fantatastic spidey movie, granted, they actually have the ambition to respect and appreciate the source material and thats something Raimi lacks, the ambition to appreciate the source material in its entirety.
I know this topic I'm about to mention has been done to death, revived and been killed again but its a glaring example that showcases Raimi's unwillingness to be ambitious enough to bring spider-man alive, properly in all his glory.
The issue of web shooters. The excuse of Peter not having the funding and being so young to create such devices has my throat in a death-inducing choak hold. Had Raimi done his job properly and involved writers who were fundamentally knowledgable in spider-man could have written and characterised Parker's character realisticly and effectively, showcasing Peter's cerebral scientific mind and resourcefulness but no. What we got was a brief encounter of Peter's facination with spiders and large telescopes, something he could have easily looked up and learnt in the space of 15minutes on wikipedia.:rolleyes:

The spider-man movies are flawed and focus more on taking short cuts to please the masses so that they in turn can rob them of their hard cash, while fans who actually know what spider-man is about are left with pathetic attempts of being appeased.
What we need is a focused director who understands the sort of movie spider-man is and should be.
 
Tangled Web said:
That man know his comics. Well, maybe he could help write and then we'd get Peter Jackson to direct.

If ever there was a movie based on secret wars, Jackson would definately be someone I'd consider to bring it to life but there are far more important projects that need to be dealt with to even consider a SW mvie right now. Saying that, I think the antman movie and magneto iare also unecessary right about now. Antman before captain America? Hmm, something's not right.
 
James"007"Bond said:
Any director who is actually talented in his/her field could pull off making a fantatastic spidey movie, granted, they actually have the ambition to respect and appreciate the source material and thats something Raimi lacks, the ambition to appreciate the source material in its entirety.
I know this topic I'm about to mention has been done to death, revived and been killed again but its a glaring example that showcases Raimi's unwillingness to be ambitious enough to bring spider-man alive, properly in all his glory.
The issue of web shooters. The excuse of Peter not having the funding and being so young to create such devices has my throat in a death-inducing choak hold. Had Raimi done his job properly and involved writers who were fundamentally knowledgable in spider-man could have written and characterised Parker's character realisticly and effectively, showcasing Peter's cerebral scientific mind and resourcefulness but no. What we got was a brief encounter of Peter's facination with spiders and large telescopes, something he could have easily looked up and learnt in the space of 15minutes on wikipedia.:rolleyes:

The spider-man movies are flawed and focus more on taking short cuts to please the masses so that they in turn can rob them of their hard cash, while fans who actually know what spider-man is about are left with pathetic attempts of being appeased.
What we need is a focused director who understands the sort of movie spider-man is and should be.
Well... um... I agree. I agree wholeheartedly and completely, in fact. What I do not want is an ongoing debate about this going on in here, so I'd appreciate if we could leave this issue aside for a while. I just feel there are people who are tempted to respond with counter-arguments, and that's where the banishing begins, and I don't want to have to resort to that. In any case, Welcome to the Haven, Jide.

Anyone who even thinks of arguing this above post will be absolutely required to post their own criticism of any or all of Sam Raimi's Spider-Man movies, of equal size and equal vitriolic tone. That's in line with the rules, so there's no argument to be had about that.


You've reminded me, Jide, that I would definitely plan on putting a solid emphasis on Peter Parker's aptitude and ambitions with regard to bio-chemistry. I would have Norman Osborn offer him a lab assistant job, just like in the comics, and have him decline for the same reasons (he can't be relied upon and can't hold a job with set hours). Sam Raimi's poor imitation of Spider-Man never knew what he wanted. He basically said as much. The real Spider-Man pretty much always knew what he wanted back in the day, he just could never have it. That's the difference between an intelligent, well-written character who is frustrated and a badly-written character who is angst personified and whose only trait is "frustrated." Yeah, it's frustrating to be a useless little punk who never speaks up for himself with any conviction and can't even answer the simplest questions about himself. But that's not interesting, and it's certainly not worthy of intelligent viewers who paid good money to see a character well-known for his strong personality, razor-sharp wit and endless charm. Too bad we got barely any of that in those movies, but that's where reality lets us down and we have to take matters into our own hands, even if it's only in our imaginations and internet forums. None of what we write here will probably end up on a movie screen, but that's still a dream worth having.

I've actually gotten to the point where I imagine myself giving interviews about the upcoming films I'm producing and so forth, doling out clues and such, without being a smug or smarmy little roach like Avi Arad. Yep, that's how sad my life is, and that's how sad the state of superhero movies are. I'm gonna go have myself a quick cry for now, for the state of comics, and other, more pressing concerns.

Make Mine the REAL Marvel, dammit!

:wolverine
 
Abaddon said:
Rough outline for Spider-man movie:

Origin story.
Pete goes to high school with Harry,Flash,and Liz.
Gets bitten by spider
Learns of his powers,lets it get to his head
Exploits his abilities for money.
Ben dies,he learns responsibility lesson.
Becomes a hero
Meets Gwen Stacy in college.
Norman makes a brief cameo
Captain Stacy is introduced
Meets Doc Ock.
Doc Ock has his accident.Begins to set some plan into motion which endangers the lives of many.
Parallel established between Doc Ock letting his hubris get to him,and Pete learning responsibility.
Gwen tries to get close to Peter.Pete's still reluctant because of his secret.
Doc Ock fights Spidey.Captain Stacy dies.
Spidey's villainized.
Pete wants to reveal his feelings to Gwen but she voices her hatred of Spidey.
Spidey defeats Doc Ock and saves a bunch of people.
Movie ends on a high note somehow,with Spidey saving somebody or something.

Bada-Bing Bada-Boom.:cool:

I look at this and feel a great sense of overwhelming dismay. To anyone who understands the core of spider-man and his origins, its easy to see just how excellent spider-man 1 could have been whilst simultaneously impresing and satisfying fans and the general audience collectively.

I like that it doesn't waste time and doesn't add clutter scenes to carry things foward and most importantly allows the film to have direction taking the story foward that closely mirrors the major events that took place in the comics.
In fact its so blatantly easy to list acts to conclude a sequal.

Oh and thanks, Logan for the welcome, great thread you got here.:up: :spidey:
 
DACrowe said:
Hey, I was just skimming through the first 5 pages or so and I think you have a lot of valid points and am not trying to argue or anything, but I just wanted to know herr, you called the Spider-Man costumes from the first two movies disgraceful to the comic books and I was curious if you would elaborate. I know you support the magic marker version but is there any other reason to despise those costumes so?
I really said that? About the costumes? That's weird. I don't remember, and I'm too lazy to go back and look, but I'll take your word for it.

I know I still believe the Green Goblin costume was disgraceful, simply because it's just as silly looking as a picture-perfect copy of the comics version, but it's not faithful enough. I believe a scary, "tough" looking version of the original costume could be made, and somewhere out there there's a concept art piece of the mask/helmet that proves it. Dr. Octopus' costume was arguably excellent but also "so-so," depending on whether you're just talking about the harness or if you count the fact that he should have been wearing decent clothes over it (yes, you can cut out the back of a white Armani suit and still look good).

Well, the first Movie!Spidey costume had the wrong color webbing. It's not an improvement to make it silver, it's just wrong. Wasn't a huge deal to me, personally, as I thought the costume still looked pretty damn good. The costume for 'Spider-Man 2' was excellent. Yes, I do support what you refer to as the "magic marker" model, because yes, even I do expect a reasonable amount of believability when it comes to the mundane aspects of these movies. What I mean is, you can give people any powers you want, and a genius kid can cobble together a web-shooter from scrap metal if he has to, but don't tell me that a kid with a poor-to-average ability to sew and no money can make that fancy, rubberized costume by his God damn self. The web-shooters are a hell of a lot more believable than that. Now, as the movies go on, maybe even in just the second, Spider-Man can find a way to fancy up his costume with rubber webbing, but his first real Spider-Man costume will merely have black lines. It would be said that he uses marker, but it would be professionally and impeccably done in real life. I can suspend my belief that Parker could draw the lines perfectly, and I wouldn't entertain arguments otherwise. The costume should look perfect, but it doesn't need to look over-the-top expensive to make. Simplicity is best in general, although I've got a head for details, so I'm certainly always thinking about improvements and add-ons to various things, if it's appropriate.

You mentioned you wanted the sleek look of the arms for a Movie!Spider-Man costume. I'd love that to, but I'm absolutely unwilling to leave out the real web-shooters for any reason, so either we "cheat" like they do in the comics and just pretend they're there, or we paint the devices red, or we cover it up with red cloth outside of the costume so it blends in better. He'll also have a red utility belt with extra web cartridges, his miniature camera, and a compact, ultra-bright, long-range, red LED flashlight to use as he used in the comics (to alert police to tied up criminals or to crimes in progress that he can't deal with, or to manipulate the movement of wary criminals or Flash Thompson looking for his hero).

The hero's costume should almost always look like it stepped right out of the comics page. I can make exceptions for costumes like Wolverine's original uniform, but my only change to that would be (as seen in the X-Men: Safe Haven thread) to change the yellow to orange and blue to black, and no change at all to the brown and tan except to make the tan darker). In general, I think darker colors work better of film, but that doesn't mean you change the colors completely in most cases, it means you simply darken the tone of the colors. That's the case with the Batman costume's gray bodysuit (as seen in the Batman: Safe Haven thread). As our friend Bathead said, "Any talented filmmaker worth his salt would be able to stick close to the source material and still make an excellent film." That includes costumes. All it takes is a tiny bit of creativity, imagination and respect for the source material.

If Spider-Man upgrades his costume in my movies and then tears it, he'll go back to the old one, temporarily maybe, since he'll keep at least one "magic marker" version as a back-up.


Wait....
...brain... burning.... world... spinning.... idea forming.... AAARRRGGHHH!

Okay, alternatively, here's how he could wear the 'Spider-Man 2' costume right from the beginning:

He shows up to the wrestling ring in a cheap, last-minute costume like in 'Spider-Man,' but is NOT there to get money to impress Mary Jane (they haven't even met, and even if they had, he's doing this for Uncle Ben and Aunt May and himself, like in the comics) does NOT get his ass kicked for even one second in the ring, does NOT use web-shooters even once (for lack of having finished building them yet), does NOT take his mask off in front of strangers for any reason even once throughout the entire film series, does NOT get cheated by the fight promoter/manager or encounter Uncle Ben's killer backstage at the fight arena, but DOES meet an agent who wants to manage his new career as a super-stunt man. As a show of good faith and massive interest in this young man, this agent has several expensive (but we downplay the actual price) custom Spider-Man costumes made for the future career of the Amazing Spider-Man (the film title). That means he has the fancy suit that looks so good but doesn't make me feel dirty by saying "I made it." No Hal Sparks in the elevator scene, dammit, when Spider-Man talks to a citizen, he's on a wall, ceiling or webline and he has a snappy comeback to all questions. I don't even have to mention that the real Spider-Man wisecracks non-stop, and therefore would in my movies. I also don't have to say that there's no argument against that. Anyway, bottom line, I figured out a way to still have the 'Spider-Man 2' costume without bull$hitting the audience about Parker's skills and resources. See? Just a little imagination and respect is all it takes. Much more worthy than the cut corners and bull$hit excuses the studios keep getting away with to do mediocre or terrible jobs.

Rant time over... for now. Thanks for posting, DACrowe, and for bringing up a point that led to an idea I don't think I mentioned before. By the way, I'm going to repost this in the Spider-Man Safe Haven thread, since that's where we discuss Spider-Man now that the Safe Havens have "gone national." We can continue discussing this there. Again, thanks. :up:

:wolverine
 
James"007"Bond said:
Oh and thanks, Logan for the welcome, great thread you got here.:up: :spidey:
Thanks, Jide. :up:

Feel free to check out the other Safe Haven threads, the list of which can be found in this post. Make sure you've read the rules before posting (they're the same in every thread, except for the 'Ultimate Marvel' stipulation in the Marvel ones). Don't worry, I say that to everybody out of necessity. :up:

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
As a show of good faith and massive interest in this young man, this agent has several expensive (but we downplay the actual price) custom Spider-Man costumes made for the future career of the Amazing Spider-Man (the film title). That means he has the fancy suit that looks so good but doesn't make me feel dirty by saying "I made it."
:wolverine

Hate to bring this up, but this explanation was also used in Ultimate Spider-man. Now, whether you like the ultimate line or despise it, I think it's still a pretty good explanation.

Herr Logan said:
I've actually gotten to the point where I imagine myself giving interviews about the upcoming films I'm producing and so forth, doling out clues and such, without being a smug or smarmy little roach like Avi Arad.

Lol, I've done that before.
 
kame-sennin said:
Hate to bring this up, but this explanation was also used in Ultimate Spider-man. Now, whether you like the ultimate line or despise it, I think it's still a pretty good explanation.

Dammit. I honestly, seriously did not remember that. It just seemed a logical possibility. It's also possible that I subconsciously remembered it. Feh, I don't know.

One big difference here is that I would only consider using that idea if the costume had rubber webbing or any other highly expensive and complex ornamental features. If he wears a smooth suit with drawn on (in the story, not necessarily behind the scenes) web patterns, then he'll make the entire thing himself, including using cut-out pieces of one-way mirror screen. Hell, he can get most of this stuff from his high school in the costume bins in the drama department.


Lol, I've done that before.

Then the weeping in shame I do is for us both. :(

;)

:wolverine
 
Copied from the Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (Temporary Shelter)

Herr Logan said:
This one's for Ock:


Doc, I'm assuming you've read my proposals for 'The Amazing Spider-Man 2' and have seen that I'm considering having Adrian Toomes (aka the Vulture, who appeared and fought in all his glory in the first movie) sprung from the Vault by the Green Goblin. If this happens, it makes for an easier way to explain how Dr. Octopus escaped, as he could either make a break for it right then and there when the security systems were assaulted, or he could do something more complicated, messing with the mechanical restraints that bind his tentacles in some way the guards and technicians won't easily detect when the system is back in top shape and they check. Otherwise, Ock can also do it on his own somehow. I know you're in favor of Ock doing everything himself, but I wonder if you think it's a better idea to tie his situation in with that of the other villains, making a beautiful cause and effect chain of events that is actually running through each of the movies. I've found ways to connect most of the villains in the entire series (Scorpion wears a harness that's based on Dr. Octopus', for example, for his cybernetic tail) to each other in ways that don't cheapen anything. Octavius won't be working for anyone but himself once he becomes bonded to his tentacles.


Should Ock use his technical wits throughout and take advantage of a manlfunction, or should he trick a Guardsman (the guards with powered armor, designed by Tony Stark, that work at the Vault) into getting too close, use his own human reflexes to force him to break one of his restraints with his power blaster, and hold him hostage, forcing the rest to let him go? The former is more mysterious, the latter is more risky and dramatic.

Either way, we've agreed he'll be sending e-mails to high-end mercenaries under the address Master_Planner in the beginning of 'Amazing Spider-Man 3' and making phone calls scrambled by a voice modifier. To actually keep some pretense of mystery, his breakout should either happen in ASM2 or in a flashback after you find out in ASM3. What do you think, on both the issue of how he breaks out and when the breakout is shown?
Copied from the Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More (Temporary Shelter)

Ock said:
Oh right. My bad.



It shows better intelligence for Octavius if he escapes himself, rather than by lucky chance.

So the hostage taking sounds good. Although whenever he did escape from prison in the comics he never needed to take hostages. He just smashed his way right out of there.



Have it revealed in flashback in part 3.

Therefore it is more of a surprise when he is revealed as the Master Planner. I means he's going to boast to Spider-Man about how he did it anyway. Better to show it then in flashback.

Herr Logan said:
Damn right! :angry:



It would still be him doing most of the work even if he caught a lucky break, but yeah, it's fine for him to start from scratch.



That's because they often put him in a regular prison in the early days. No way that works for me in my movies.

Remember I'd have his tentacles locked into very strong magnetic restraints in the ceiling. I want there to be some kind of negating effect for his tentacles, maybe. He can try to move them, but the force running through them from the machinery of the cell makes them go limp. Through this, they can also electrically shock Otto if they need to.
I'd have him "flex" his tentacles constantly (not just the claws), and while the guards were concerned at first, he insisted it was, if not involuntary, a nevous habit. Some people flex their extremities constantly out of habit. I know I personally do that with my feet when they're in boots, etc. It's kind of like that. Anyway, him doing this constantly has built up a kind of tolerance for the negating effect, although he lets the negation field do its job. It means that if he strained himself, he could keep it up for several seconds.

I'd have him befriend one of the Guardsmen that regularly guard his cell and bring him food. I'd have him pull a Hannibal Lecter on him, basically. The Guardsmen are completely encased in Iron Man type armor (not as advanced and strong, but it's still a strength-enhancing exoskeleton and very tough) and carry advanced weapons that can range from stunning prisoners to killing them if absolutely necessary. They are forboding, scary looking people, and you'd never think to actually become too familiar with them, right? Octavius fears no one, and is smart enough to get past that shell and make a connection to the person underneath. He is a model prisoner, and more. He is courteous, amiable, considerate, and ever so gradually shows an interest in the Guardsman's life. We'll call him Officer Mark (get it?) for now. He becomes relatively familiar with Officer Mark's character, asking after his family, etc. He even reccommends books. He even makes jokes once in a while about his convict status. What a nice, personable, normal man, that Otto Octavius. Mark starts getting too comfortable around Octavius. One day, he gets so comfortable, he actually takes his gun (which they usually lock into secure, code-locked panels in the walls before entering a cell) into the cell when collecting two books that Otto read that day. He takes him books, you see, because Otto had been such a good prisoner. He even has a poster with the Periodic Element Chart on his wall. Oh yeah, that was a good idea, right? Anyway, Mark walks in with his gun, thinking nothing of it. Sure, Otto is a big guy, but he's a Guardsman, and it'll only take a second. What's there to worry about?
All of a sudden, Otto flexes one of his upper tentacles, rippling it in and bowing it forward so the curve knocks poor Officer Mark in his armored face plate, knocking him back. Otto has the power rifle in his hands and switches it to full power, pointing it up at the devices on the ceiling that hold his tentacles and blasting several times unil one is free. He uses the other tentacle to gather up Officer Mark, wrapping around him to keep him powerless, and holds the gun at his head, knowing that another Guardsman is on his way right then. When he gets to the cell, he aims at Otto with his blaster (which can be held with one hand if you're a Guardsman) and has his other hand on the control panel for the cell. He's thinking of shocking Otto through his tentacles. Otto knows this, and is ready. He says that if he is shocked, it will force his hand to contract, pulling the trigger and blowing Mark's head off. If the other Guardsman doesn't release the other three tentacles right now, Ock will slowly crush Mark in his own armor, breaking each bone in his body, one by one. It's essentially torture. Horrified by Ock's cruelty and out of compassion for his teammate, the Guardsmen does as he's told and gets slapped around real hard for it. Ock let's Mark live. He doesn't actually kill anyone, but he uses two of the Guardsmen as both shields and cudgels to break out. Dr. Octopus is free, and he feels no remorse for what he did to get out.


The earlier part of that is hard to get across in one scene, but there are ways. It could be at Officer Mark's debriefing, or we see little snippets, distributing the flashback across the latter half of the movie. I think it's really important to show the seductive power of Dr. Octopus and the lengths to which he'll go to get what he wants. He may be impatient on the outside (i.e., out of prison) a lot of the time, especially in terms of dealing with people, but he was able to get control of himself and exercised perfect discipline while in prison. He ranted and raved a bit at first and then calmed down gradually, making the guards on staff believe it was a temporary madness and him dealing with the accident and not being a respectable scientist afterward. Doesn't mean they'll let him out, but it means they let their guard down just a bit, and that was all he needed.

I figured this take on Ock is right up your alley.




Good idea. I said earlier how I thought it should be done.

Thanks for the feedback, Ock.
 
I really like the escape plan idea. It reminds me of how he manipulated the photographer Jeffrey Haight in 'Negative Exposure'. Ock is alot like Hannibal Lecter in that respect. He's a charmer and a manipulator. And that would be a great way to show it.

Regarding a time frame. It would have to be at least 6-8 months after Ock escaped. Because he has to set up his base, recruit his mercenaries etc.
 
Doc Ock said:
I really like the escape plan idea. It reminds me of how he manipulated the photographer Jeffrey Haight in 'Negative Exposure'. Ock is alot like Hannibal Lecter in that respect. He's a charmer and a manipulator. And that would be a great way to show it.

Exactly. I was indeed thinking of 'Negative Exposure' when I came up with this. Also his skill at this sort of thing in general.

It's one thing to con a sweet old woman who believes the best of people (even though she constantly worries about everything else... weird how that works), but this is supposed to be a supposedly skilled and trained man who joined the most elite corrections officer unit in history. Ock still gets it done, though.

Regarding a time frame. It would have to be at least 6-8 months after Ock escaped. Because he has to set up his base, recruit his mercenaries etc.

Yeah, I was planning on having him break out somewhere during the timeframe of the second movie, basically. I sort of wanted the movies to each represent a year in Peter Parker's life. I guess it's sort of like the Harry Potter books in that way.

You know, it's probably a long-shot to have the Green Goblin's breakout of the Vulture (if I still use that, and I probably will) affect Octavius. Even though Toomes is clearly dangerous and is very strong for a man of his years (much stronger in the flight suit, though), he still probably doesn't warrant the Vault. I guess I should have him in a maximum security or super-max at most. The Vault is another level altogether, imprisoning the likes of Dr. Octopus, Unus the Untouchable, the Toad, the Ani-Men, etc. Toomes may get a residual strength boost from the flight suit, but the law doesn't necessarily have to know that.

What do you think, should there be a movie with the Sinister Six?

It would be perfect, marketing-wise, to have the Sinister Six in the 6th movie, right? In order to do that, I'd need to get Captain Stacy's death, Gwen's death, the Scorpion, the Chameleon and Kraven the Hunter out of the way beforehand.


My original concept was this (not complete):

Amazing Spider-Man
High school, senior year
Origin
Intro to Daily Bugle
Betty Brant love interest
Vulture and Dr. Octopus as villlains

Amazing Spider-Man 2
College, freshman year
Intro to Gwen, Cap. Stacy, Harry, Norman Osborn, and Mary Jane
Green Goblin as main villain, Enforcers as backup
GG finds out Spider-Man's secret and then loses memory
Peter and Gwen start dating

Amazing Spider-Man 3
College, sophomore year
Master Planner story arc, with Aunt May sick
Dr. Octopus kills Cap. Stacy by accident (but loses no sleep over it)

Amazing Spider-Man 4
College, junior year
Green Goblin recovers memory, kills Gwen

Amazing Spider-Man 5
College, senior year
Chameleon and Kraven the Hunter as villains
Peter is dating Mary Jane


Amazing Spider-Man 6
Grad school
Jameson pays scientists to create the Scorpion and Spider Slayers

Amazing Spider-Man 7
Grad school
Peter proposes to Mary Jane
Symbiote and Eddie Brock-- Venom
Peter and MJ get married. 'Nuff said.


I don't know if I could have it line up with the sixth movie, but I'd like it to.

One thing I really don't want is to have the Green Goblin kill Gwen Stacy in the same movie where he debuts as a villian. That's too much like Raimi's mediocre attempt at a Spider-Man story. I want him to lose his memory and have that suspense hanging over Peter for at least one movie. The other thing I'd really hate to do is kill Captain Stacy off before getting to know him. I also don't want to end the second movie with both Peter being terrified that Norman Osborn will regain his memory AND have Captain Stacy die and Gwen devastated.

I want Kraven and the Chamelon and the Scorpion to have their time to shine before the Sinister Six get together if they're going to be members (which would make it Dr. Octopus, Kraven, Chameleon or Mysterio, Scorpion, Electro and the Sandman). I don't think it's plausible to have the main story with the Chameleon and Kraven in the same movie as the Green Goblin kills Gwen or the Master Planner story, and I also don't know if the latter two stories should be told in the same movie.

Thoughts on keeping it spread at a good pace, but still getting the Six into Movie Six?

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
Exactly. I was indeed thinking of 'Negative Exposure' when I came up with this. Also his skill at this sort of thing in general.
It's one thing to con a sweet old woman who believes the best of people (even though she constantly worries about everything else... weird how that works), but this is supposed to be a supposedly skilled and trained man who joined the most elite corrections officer unit in history. Ock still gets it done, though.

Indeed. How many super villains has he manipulated and betrayed over the course of his career too. A prison guard would be easy for him.

You know, it's probably a long-shot to have the Green Goblin's breakout of the Vulture (if I still use that, and I probably will) affect Octavius. Even though Toomes is clearly dangerous and is very strong for a man of his years (much stronger in the flight suit, though), he still probably doesn't warrant the Vault. I guess I should have him in a maximum security or super-max at most. The Vault is another level altogether, imprisoning the likes of Dr. Octopus, Unus the Untouchable, the Toad, the Ani-Men, etc. Toomes may get a residual strength boost from the flight suit, but the law doesn't necessarily have to know that.

Yeah, I don't think the Vulture's ever served time in the Vault. I've seen him in Rykers, but never in the Vault. It's not like he can mentally control his Vulture suit or anything. He doesn't warrant Vault security.

Heck they shoved him in an old folks home once where he made friends with May's fiancee Nathan Lubensky.

What do you think, should there be a movie with the Sinister Six?

It would be perfect, marketing-wise, to have the Sinister Six in the 6th movie, right? In order to do that, I'd need to get Captain Stacy's death, Gwen's death, the Scorpion, the Chameleon and Kraven the Hunter out of the way beforehand.

I would LOVE to see the Six on screen. And it would be even sweeter if Octavius betrayed them after using them. Just to show that part of his personality again. That he'll use and betray anyone.


My original concept was this (not complete):

Amazing Spider-Man
High school, senior year
Origin
Intro to Daily Bugle
Betty Brant love interest
Vulture and Dr. Octopus as villlains

Amazing Spider-Man 2
College, freshman year
Intro to Gwen, Cap. Stacy, Harry, Norman Osborn, and Mary Jane
Green Goblin as main villain, Enforcers as backup
GG finds out Spider-Man's secret and then loses memory
Peter and Gwen start dating

Amazing Spider-Man 3
College, sophomore year
Master Planner story arc, with Aunt May sick
Dr. Octopus kills Cap. Stacy by accident (but loses no sleep over it)

Amazing Spider-Man 4
College, junior year
Green Goblin recovers memory, kills Gwen

Amazing Spider-Man 5
College, senior year
Chameleon and Kraven the Hunter as villains
Peter is dating Mary Jane


Amazing Spider-Man 6
Grad school
Jameson pays scientists to create the Scorpion and Spider Slayers

Amazing Spider-Man 7
Grad school
Peter proposes to Mary Jane
Symbiote and Eddie Brock-- Venom
Peter and MJ get married. 'Nuff said.

Movie 4 looks a bit iffy. The Goblin killing Gwen is fine, but I'd have another villain in there for variety. After already seeing the Goblin in movie 2, it would be a bit of a let down if he was the only villain in movie 4. We need to see some other new villain in there. Even as just a side/cameo villain.

As for movie 5, Kraven and Chameleon wouldn't offer much in the way of spectacular fight scenes. You gotta remember the public wants to see some spectacular fights.

Chameleon is useless against Spidey physically. As for Kraven, well Spidey fighting tigers and dodging spears is not exactly eye popping stuff for a superhero movie if you know what I mean.

The rest of your movies look fine. You've tied all the important events in there.

One thing I really don't want is to have the Green Goblin kill Gwen Stacy in the same movie where he debuts as a villian. That's too much like Raimi's mediocre attempt at a Spider-Man story. I want him to lose his memory and have that suspense hanging over Peter for at least one movie. The other thing I'd really hate to do is kill Captain Stacy off before getting to know him. I also don't want to end the second movie with both Peter being terrified that Norman Osborn will regain his memory AND have Captain Stacy die and Gwen devastated.

I agree.

Establish Ock and GG as villains in seperate movies, then have them involved in the Stacy family deaths, again in seperate movies. Obviously Captain Stacy dying first.

I want Kraven and the Chamelon and the Scorpion to have their time to shine before the Sinister Six get together if they're going to be members (which would make it Dr. Octopus, Kraven, Chameleon or Mysterio, Scorpion, Electro and the Sandman). I don't think it's plausible to have the main story with the Chameleon and Kraven in the same movie as the Green Goblin kills Gwen or the Master Planner story, and I also don't know if the latter two stories should be told in the same movie.

Thoughts on keeping it spread at a good pace, but still getting the Six into Movie Six?

:wolverine

Well, villains like the Sandman, Mysterio and Electro don't need huge intros. I might even introduce a couple in the Sinister Six movie. Maybe Ock hears about a Sandman going on a crime spree in New York, and tracks him down and recruits him. Same with Electro. Both are petty criminals really who use their powers to steal.

Have Ock track a few of them down, similar to how he did it in the Return of the Sinister Six.
 
Doc Ock said:
Indeed. How many super villains has he manipulated and betrayed over the course of his career too. A prison guard would be easy for him.

Exactly.

Yeah, I don't think the Vulture's ever served time in the Vault. I've seen him in Rykers, but never in the Vault. It's not like he can mentally control his Vulture suit or anything. He doesn't warrant Vault security.

Heck they shoved him in an old folks home once where he made friends with May's fiancee Nathan Lubensky.

I think it was pretty implausible, them putting Toomes in a regular nursing home. I mean, even if he was fragile, he's still an antisocial, sociopathic criminal, and a genius to boot. I mean, even if he didn't have the ability to make a flight harness out of a TV set, it's just bad judgement to let him near normal people.

I would LOVE to see the Six on screen. And it would be even sweeter if Octavius betrayed them after using them. Just to show that part of his personality again. That he'll use and betray anyone.

Indeed.

Movie 4 looks a bit iffy. The Goblin killing Gwen is fine, but I'd have another villain in there for variety. After already seeing the Goblin in movie 2, it would be a bi of a let down if he was the only villain in movie 4. We need to see some other new villain in there. Even as just a side/cameo villain.

I know. As I said, it's not complete. One of my biggest problems with this is filling in the space in that one. There definitely need to be other villains. I just don't know what to put there that won't overshadow the Goblin.

As for movie 5, Kraven and Chameleon wouldn't offer much in the way of spectacular fight scenes. You gotta remember the public wants to see some spectacular fights.

Kraven can offer plenty of good fighting. He'll be taking a derivative of the Goblin Formula. It's based on one of the prototype samples that were stored in the OsCorp lab that Dr. Octopus and his goons raided in ASM1. The goon who snatched it on his way out sold it, and it got around. Sergei Kravinoff got tired of taking conventional steroids and looked for something more powerful. Now that we've got superhumans running around (his new idea of prey, since he ran out of animals to hunt), there must be a way to harness that power for himself, right? So yeah, he eventually gets this stuff and it makes him superhumanly strong, fast and tough, and gives him superhuman senses. No claws or any of that Ultimate bullsh1t. He's a match for Spider-Man, and he's got tons of hunting equipment and weaponry to use. He's one of the few villains Spider-Man has in the movie series so far who not only can but does fight him hand-to-hand (I think the Scorpion and maybe some robots are the only ones, aside from a possible Rhino cameo). The Green Goblin can fight, but he does only a little hand-to-hand fighting. He's not an expert like in the movies and video game. He stays on his glider when he can, but yeah, there'll be some hardcore punching at times. Anyway, Kraven's a badass fighter.

It's possible I'll have the the Enforcers' strength artificially enhanced for some street fighting with Spider-Man.

Chameleon is useless against Spidey physically. As for Kraven, well Spidey fighting tigers and dodging spears is not exactly eye popping stuff for a superhero movie if you know what I mean.

Grrr... it'll be more than dodging spears. There will be a lot of arrows flying at him, yes, but there's other traps and tricks in Kraven's arsenal.

Another thing is, I'm thinking of having the Lizard's story in the same movie as Chameleon and Kraven. That would be a big bonus prey for Kraven, wouldn't it?

The rest of your movies look fine. You've tied all the important events in there.

Cool. I really appreciate your input. :up:

I agree.

Establish Ock and GG as villains in seperate movies, then have them involved in the Stacy family deaths, again in seperate movies. Obviously Captain Stacy dying first.



Well, villains like the Sandman, Mysterio and Electro don't need huge intros. I might even introduce a couple in the Sinister Six movie. Maybe Ock hears about a Sandman going on a crime spree in New York, and tracks him down and recruits him. Same with Electro. Both are petty criminals really who use their powers to steal.

Have Ock track a few of them down, similar to how he did it in the Return of the Sinister Six.

Electro will probably be introduced already as a fight/cameo villain in the second, third or fourth movie. The Sandman and Mysterio need real character introductions, I think. Symbiotica would smack me for this, but I don't consider Electro big on character content in a movie, but someone with sand powers probably needs a little more intro time. I mean, that's more unique, right?

Mysterio is one of the greatest villains, so he'll need proper respect paid.

:wolverine
 
Herr Logan said:
I think it was pretty implausible, them putting Toomes in a regular nursing home. I mean, even if he was fragile, he's still an antisocial, sociopathic criminal, and a genius to boot. I mean, even if he didn't have the ability to make a flight harness out of a TV set, it's just bad judgement to let him near normal people.

Indeed. How easily they forgot that he is an engineer.

I know. As I said, it's not complete. One of my biggest problems with this is filling in the space in that one. There definitely need to be other villains. I just don't know what to put there that won't overshadow the Goblin.

Use Electro.

Kraven can offer plenty of good fighting. He'll be taking a derivative of the Goblin Formula. It's based on one of the prototype samples that were stored in the OsCorp lab that Dr. Octopus and his goons raided in ASM1. The goon who snatched it on his way out sold it, and it got around. Sergei Kravinoff got tired of taking conventional steroids and looked for something more powerful. Now that we've got superhumans running around (his new idea of prey, since he ran out of animals to hunt), there must be a way to harness that power for himself, right? So yeah, he eventually gets this stuff and it makes him superhumanly strong, fast and tough, and gives him superhuman senses. No claws or any of that Ultimate bullsh1t. He's a match for Spider-Man, and he's got tons of hunting equipment and weaponry to use. He's one of the few villains Spider-Man has in the movie series so far who not only can but does fight him hand-to-hand (I think the Scorpion and maybe some robots are the only ones, aside from a possible Rhino cameo). The Green Goblin can fight, but he does only a little hand-to-hand fighting. He's not an expert like in the movies and video game. He stays on his glider when he can, but yeah, there'll be some hardcore punching at times. Anyway, Kraven's a badass fighter.

Yeah, I'm sure it will be good. But still it won't offer eye popping action, explosions, and big dazzling effects etc.

And every superhero movie needs a villain that can offer something like that.

Another thing is, I'm thinking of having the Lizard's story in the same movie as Chameleon and Kraven. That would be a big bonus prey for Kraven, wouldn't it?

Yes, that would be great. And the Lizard can certainly offer some neat fight scenes too. Especially in the creepy sewers.

Electro will probably be introduced already as a fight/cameo villain in the second, third or fourth movie. The Sandman and Mysterio need real character introductions, I think. Symbiotica would smack me for this, but I don't consider Electro big on character content in a movie, but someone with sand powers probably needs a little more intro time. I mean, that's more unique, right?

Mysterio is one of the greatest villains, so he'll need proper respect paid.

:wolverine

I don't think Sandman needs a big intro. There's not alot of depth to him. Yes his powers are unique. But they don't take a whole lot of explaining as to how he got them.

I agree about Mysterio though. Beck needs a proper intro. He's a genius in his field, and we need to see how he ended up turning to crime.
 
Doc Ock said:
Indeed. How easily they forgot that he is an engineer.

It's shameful. I would also hope that they never allow the Shocker anywhere near a prison workshop after the first time he escaped and became a supervillain.

Use Electro.

Done.

Yeah, I'm sure it will be good. But still it won't offer eye popping action, explosions, and big dazzling effects etc.

And every superhero movie needs a villain that can offer something like that.

You may be right about the explosions. There's always a way to make explosions occur, but there's times when it could appear forced. I'll think of something, eventually.

Yes, that would be great. And the Lizard can certainly offer some neat fight scenes too. Especially in the creepy sewers.

This is also going to be the old school Lizard who talks and rants. He won't rant too much, but when Spider-Man finally gets him going on what he's up to, he'll say he wants to create an army of lizard people and conquer humanity. Spider-Man will either burst out laughing or barely refrain from it, and taunt the hell out of him.

I don't think Sandman needs a big intro. There's not alot of depth to him. Yes his powers are unique. But they don't take a whole lot of explaining as to how he got them.

Fair enough. I don't think there's much to him, either (but more than there is to Electro, since he's got a conscience buried somewhere and he gave better dialogue in his early appearances).

I think I want to have the Enforcers working for the Sandman, and have Spider-Man take them out and foil Sandman's plot. After that, he'll join the Sinister Six.

I agree about Mysterio though. Beck needs a proper intro. He's a genius in his field, and we need to see how he ended up turning to crime.

Seriously. If he had grander vision and a mind for strategy, he could be a second-rate Dr. Doom instead of what he actually is. He's exactly what you said, and more. He's apparently a genius in several fields. I'd keep that under control and have much of his resources' origins clouded in mystery (if he uses robots), except for the special effects.

I'm so glad to know someone who really knows his villains. :up:

:wolverine
 
ANNOUNCEMENT:

I've got about three days left where I know I'll have easy access to the Internet for a little while. I'm moving on Friday to a house that doesn't yet have cable internet hooked up and I'm having my current modem taken back by the cable company on Thursday morning. If there's anything you know you want me to read any time soon, try to post it before Thursday.
I'm going to try and get hooked up as soon as possible in my new place, but I don't know when that will be. I'll probably be able to check in from the campus library in a few days either way.

:wolverine
 
I wholeheartedly agree with the purists' position on the revised order of the villains in the film versions. Doc Ock should have been first, and then Green Goblin. No doubt.

However, I don't think I would have had Ock's and GG's story arcs play out over two films like Herr Logan suggests in post #66 above. Doc Ock could get his origin story and kill Capt Stacy in the same film, thus creating a bond for Peter and Gwen right off the bat - losing loved ones. True, this kind of takes the dramatic punch out of Capt Stacy revealing that he knows Pete is Spidey (which could still happen in the same film), but it still gives Ock his big impact on Pete's life by creating the situation where Pete can't tell Gwen he's Spidey.

Same thing with GG killing Gwen in the hypothetical second film. By this time, Pete and Gwen are close, so her death would still have high shock value for the general public. A Goblin origin story along with Pete's interactions with Harry and Gwen, plus the intro of MJ at the end after Gwen's death (so the film won't end on a total downer) would have made a very nice framework for SM2.

The nature of the beast that is feature film is limited by the 2-3 year production period between movies, so each villain getting one film to himself with a definite ending is still the way to go. Despite the sequential nature of the Spidey comic stories, viewers have certain expectations with feature films, and a more tidy wrap-up is needed, as well as the avoidance of anything resembling repetition between two different Spidey movies.

Which brings me to a tricky question that I now pose to Those Who Demand More, because as a moderate critic of the Spidey films, I'm not sure how I feel about it myself.

That question is -- would the third Spidey villain in this hypothetical franchise still need to be Venom?

Since Venom is arguably # 3 on the "top Spidey villains" totem pole, with whoever might be # 4 (Hobgoblin? Mysterio? Electro?) quite a bit behind, is this enough to ensure that even a purist's hypothetical third Spidey movie should feature a plot to accomodate his appearance no matter what?
 
The Lizard said:
I wholeheartedly agree with the purists' position on the revised order of the villains in the film versions. Doc Ock should have been first, and then Green Goblin. No doubt.

However, I don't think I would have had Ock's and GG's story arcs play out over two films like Herr Logan suggests in post #66 above. Doc Ock could get his origin story and kill Capt Stacy in the same film, thus creating a bond for Peter and Gwen right off the bat - losing loved ones. True, this kind of takes the dramatic punch out of Capt Stacy revealing that he knows Pete is Spidey (which could still happen in the same film), but it still gives Ock his big impact on Pete's life by creating the situation where Pete can't tell Gwen he's Spidey.

Same thing with GG killing Gwen in the hypothetical second film. By this time, Pete and Gwen are close, so her death would still have high shock value for the general public. A Goblin origin story along with Pete's interactions with Harry and Gwen, plus the intro of MJ at the end after Gwen's death (so the film won't end on a total downer) would have made a very nice framework for SM2.

The nature of the beast that is feature film is limited by the 2-3 year production period between movies, so each villain getting one film to himself with a definite ending is still the way to go. Despite the sequential nature of the Spidey comic stories, viewers have certain expectations with feature films, and a more tidy wrap-up is needed, as well as the avoidance of anything resembling repetition between two different Spidey movies.

You make a very good argument, Liz, and I thank you for posting. I'm still on the fence about my franchise concept line-up, but this is what got me that far, so I'm taking it under consideration.

My biggest problem with this is that I really do want to stick with Betty Brant as the love interest for the first movie, and I want her to be Dr. Octopus' hostage for reasons mostly unrelated to Peter Parker. I would find an ending where Peter is given an ultimatum to quit action crime photography or lose Betty as the perfect substitution over the melodramatic drek in Raimi's 'Spider-Man.' It's faithful to the source material, and I think her relationship with Peter and the reasons why it ended are an important milestone for the mythos and it established the first reason why a superhero won't have an easy love life: girls don't like having their boyfriends get killed and don't want to worry all the time.

It does strike me that having a Stacy die at the end of both the first and second movie would be repetitive, but obviously not as repetitive as if the Green Goblin and Dr. Octopus both did those killings in different movies than the ones in which they were introduced.

Which brings me to a tricky question that I now pose to Those Who Demand More, because as a moderate critic of the Spidey films, I'm not sure how I feel about it myself.

That question is -- would the third Spidey villain in this hypothetical franchise still need to be Venom?

Since Venom is arguably # 3 on the "top Spidey villains" totem pole, with whoever might be # 4 (Hobgoblin? Mysterio? Electro?) quite a bit behind, is this enough to ensure that even a purist's hypothetical third Spidey movie should feature a plot to accomodate his appearance no matter what?

Unless I was given only three movies to work with, I certainly wouldn't put Venom in the third one. I'd want him last; not because I don't like him, but because I think he's the bookend for the great, classic Spider-Man era. My intention would to have Venom in the last movie and have Spider-Man get married to MJ at the very end.

In between, I think the Lizard, Kraven and the Chameleon, and the Scorpion at least should get their chance in major plots.

Also, Venom would never be just a tacked-on villain, and Eddie Brock wouldn't have any personal beef with Peter Parker whatsoever. They'd never even know each other, just like in the comics, which is what makes it all the more scary and unreasonable for Venom to attack Parker and make his life hell. A guy waging war on another guy over a girl? That happens all the time. A guy blaming someone else for his own problems with no foundation for argument but lots of private information? Now that's a criminal mind worth exploring.



As much as I like the original Hobgoblin, I'd only use him in an ongoing serial format like a TV show, since it would require it to really do the entire Goblin Legacy real justice. What I'd love is an animated series, written maturely, intelligently and as close to the original comics in terms of storyline as possible while putting it in a contemporary setting. That doesn't mean "make it modern" like Brian Michael Bendis tries to or making a lot of unnecessary changes. It would mean changing things that depended solely on the time period, such as the Cold War stuff and Vietnam stuff. The slang would be updated, but not overused (Aunt May doesn't like too much slang, after all). Basically, it would be similar to the 90's animated series, but real guns would be used, as well as words like "kill," "death," and "blood" instead of only "destroy," "oblivion" (not that you wouldn't hear those words here and there) and "plasma." And Spider-Man can punch people, God dammit!


Thanks again for posting, Lizard. :up:
I wish I had more coherent things to say in response, but I've taken my sleeping pills already.

:wolverine
 

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