Safe Haven for Those Who Demand More

[Herr Logan]

Something along the lines of going through a crime scene and using multiples choices on the clues to construct a sequence of events (possibly acted out by "ghosts" of the suspects/victims). For example, Batman could come across a broken vase and have a series of choices like "She knocked it over trying to get away from the killer," "She used it to try and attack the killer," "It was shattered by a gunshot," etc. Alfred could consult and point out holes in your theory if you got it wrong. When the puzzle is solved, a flashback activates that shows you how it happened. Then you move on to hunting the perp down or whatever.

That, plus you could take hair fibers and other clues back to the mobile crime lab in the Batmobile for analysis (if you found them with your cool high-tech goggles and such).

And have you read my Spider-Man fic? I'd be interested to hear what you think of Venom's characterization, seeing as you're something of a criminologist.

Just to let you know, Zev, I've read a good chunk of your story. I haven't read the whole thing and I haven't responded yet because I've been swampedd with unpleasant tasks of late.

You may or may not want my response to be delivered via PM.

 

[Zev]

I'd prefer you not use PM. That way my thread gets a bump.

Birds of Prey/Nightwing Double Feature

I'd love for this to be a sorta-but-not-kinda crossover, like Hamlet and Rosencrantz & Guildenstein Are Dead. Basically, at some point the movies intersect and have Barbara/Dick OTP (say, the date from Birds of Prey 8). Because, honestly... you can't NOT have it. It'd be like Wild Things without the threesome.

Nightwing is easy. Dick Grayson, new in Bludhaven, decides to clean up the town. He used to be a superhero (don't know if they'll be able to mention Batman or not, but let's play it safe and be all subtexty. Besides, it'd probably be less confusing to audiences. "But in Batman Begins, Batman doesn't have a partner, so he gets one and then they break up and... I'm confused!"), but now he's unhappy with the vigilante lifestyle and joins the police force. He and his Training Officer, Amy Rorsbach, ferret out corruption under the leadership of Dick's other mentor, Inspector Soames, who's working for crimelord Blockbuster. Eventually, Dick is forced to take up the mantle of Nightwing, Soames gets his neck twisted for failing Blockbuster (but survives), and we've got an origin story.

Birds of Prey is a similarly easy concept. Women who like to put boot to ass travel the world righting wrongs. We'll have them fight an international crime cartel, let's say Kobra and his Cobra Cult. Black Canary (and maybe Huntress) travel the world in a private jet, putting boot to... oh, I mentioned that already? Anyway, things come to a head when leader Oracle (you don't have to mention the whole "Joker shot me" thing, just establish that the loss of her legs motivated her to become a computer whiz. And why not give her a Mysterious Past while you're at it? There! Now don't you want to spend a few sequels finding out the mysteries of Barbara's past? And watch her get revenge on whoever crippled her? Of course you do!) is kidnapped by Kobra (or other terrorist/criminal mastermind). Black Canary (and possibly Huntress) are on their own and have to rescue her. The film ends with Kobra meeting an ironic but deadly fate (possibly with sexy results) and our heroine(s) meeting Oracle in person for the first time.

Also, this needs to keep the subtext. Yes, we all know it's unfair that strong women (such as Barbara and Dinah) can't have a friendship in fiction without immediately being stereotyped as lesbians. But it's also totally hot. And let's just remember how manly man creator Chuck Dixon wrote their first meeting.

Be honest... you're surprised that they DIDN'T start making out. Grayson who? Ollie what? Feels were definitely being copped there. Experiments were taking place and NOT in the Bat-Crime Lab.

Subtext: It worked for Xena and it can work for BOP.

 

[Abaddon]

I was surprised.

 

[kame-sennin]

Herr Logan, nice Batman game write-up. I like most of it, but there are two areas that I'd like to add/modify.

Training mode - I love training modes in games, and I like what you've done with them, but they shouldn't be mandatory. There are some people who really hate to train, and would prefer to muddle through the game on their own. A lot of my favorite games have training modes, and I like the idea of Batman reminding himself to train, but forcing players to train before a mission would probably just lead to frustration. The only time you can get away with mandatory training is at the very start of the game. Perhaps in the training, you can play 3 mini-games as young Bruce. Each one takes place in different country where you learn a different skill. One for combat, one for thrown weapons, and the last could either teach you detective work or how to use the glider (depending on how intuitive the glider function is). Or, maybe the last training stage takes place in the Batcave and is similar to the other in-game training modes that follow. This final stage is an overview of all the gadgets available, what they're best for, and how to use them.

Utility Belt - I think you really covered all the bases for the utility belt, I just have an idea for adding to a challenge to the game. I think Batman should have access to everything you listed, but he can only carry a small portion of those items. Basically, before a mission inside the batcave, the player has to decide -based on that mission- which tools he'll need most. Going into the pause menu and equiping whatever you want is too easy and it reminds the player that they are playing a video game. Having to choose what you can carry ahead of time creates a more interesting challenge, and forces you to think much more like the Batman probably would. I like the idea of having extra stock in the Batmobile, so long as the Batmobile's capacity is also limited (but still holds much more than the belt). More importantly, depending on where you've hid the car, the Batmobile may not arrive in time to provide you with what you need before you get whooped. Of course, the remote control for the car will be a standard belt item that won't take up any space.

One more thing - I remebered this while I was typing, the fighting engine for the game should be based on the Xbox Ninja Gaiden games. I totally agree that Splinter Cell should be used as a model for stealth, and Spider-man 2 should be used for accessability, but for actually combat with thugs and bosses, the Ninja scroll engine is the most appropriate. The SP2 engine is too repetitive and generic for a Batman game considering his skills, but Ninja Gaiden has a really fun combat enging that incorporates martial arts, thrown weapons, and melee weapons, which is perfect for Batman. If you've ever played the game, then you know that some of the agility is a bit much for Batman, but other than that, it's well suited to the character.

Overall, you're game idea is pretty awsome, especially the detective stuff. I figured I'd throw some ideas your way and see what you think. I'm not sure why most Batman games to date have been so horrible (I haven't played Begins though). The new spider-man games do suggest that some people can make a decent super hero game though, here's hoping.

 

[Head>On<Collider]

Here's a FF2 idea that came to mind this morning: Intro:
A wooden coat gets unloaded from the ship when it docks onto "Latverian Soil"....
a hand donning a metal glove pries open the container that's preserving the man audiences throughout the world have known to be Victor Von Doom...... the other hand sporting a metal glove reaches in and pulls this guy out by his neck...... we first get a close up of his feet hanging off the ground, then a close up to his face.... next, the one who pulled him out BACKHANDS HIM out of righteous indignation, throws him back into the container, and then sends the casket on its way into the ocean......
He says, "No one represents Dr. Doom in such a worthless and weak manner...." and then goes back to business as usual ...

Too bad it'll never happen

 

[Zev]

Utility Belt - I think you really covered all the bases for the utility belt, I just have an idea for adding to a challenge to the game. I think Batman should have access to everything you listed, but he can only carry a small portion of those items. Basically, before a mission inside the batcave, the player has to decide -based on that mission- which tools he'll need most. Going into the pause menu and equiping whatever you want is too easy and it reminds the player that they are playing a video game. Having to choose what you can carry ahead of time creates a more interesting challenge, and forces you to think much more like the Batman probably would. I like the idea of having extra stock in the Batmobile, so long as the Batmobile's capacity is also limited (but still holds much more than the belt). More importantly, depending on where you've hid the car, the Batmobile may not arrive in time to provide you with what you need before you get whooped. Of course, the remote control for the car will be a standard belt item that won't take up any space.

It'd also be nice if what you took in your utility belt determined how you went through the level. For instant, if didn't bring your lockpick, you might have to use your nightvision goggles to get through a dark area.

 

[Herr Logan]

Here's a FF2 idea that came to mind this morning: Intro:
A wooden coat gets unloaded from the ship when it docks onto &quot;Latverian Soil&quot;....
a hand donning a metal glove pries open the container that's preserving the man audiences throughout the world have known to be Victor Von Doom...... the other hand sporting a metal glove reaches in and pulls this guy out by his neck...... we first get a close up of his feet hanging off the ground, then a close up to his face.... next, the one who pulled him out BACKHANDS HIM out of righteous indignation, throws him back into the container, and then sends the casket on its way into the ocean......
He says, &quot;No one represents Dr. Doom in such a worthless and weak manner....&quot; and then goes back to business as usual ...

Too bad it'll never happen

Awesome.

The one thing I want to make sure is that Doom did in fact purposefully send the robot in his place. What I suggested earlier either in this thread or somewhere else is that the weak-ass villain in the first movie be an extremely advanced robot on the level of a Terminator playing the part of the real Victor Von Doom, but its exposure to cosmic radiation altered it so that its artificial flesh gave way to its true nature and its programming (which was originally set so he didn't know he had robot superpowers) malfunctioned so it seemed as if it has just gained ablities and it didn't know how to handle it. The creature was supposed to be triggered by the real Doom at a strategic moment so it would know once again that it was a powerful servant of Doom, but before it was ever triggered, it was damaged so that it kept the belief that it was in fact Victor Von Doom and was supposed to be a normal human even though its true power was now revealing itself. The whole thing went unstable and it got its ass kicked by the Fantastic Four, because it was never supposed to be able to stand up to that kind of power in the first place.

The real Doom did not expect any of this to happen, so he resolves to use a different kind of robot, not intended to blend in with humans and not meant to impersonate Doom for long periods of time without Doom standing by to personally intervene should something go wrong. He would use less advanced Doombots as stand-ins during physical confrontations and as soldiers in military coups and defense maneuvers (not dressed in Doom's own garb in this capacity).

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr Logan, nice Batman game write-up. I like most of it, but there are two areas that I'd like to add/modify.

God damn... I haven't replied to this yet! I'm very sorry, kame-sennin. I thought I had, but I actually haven't even completed the response I was working on.

Here's what I have so far:

Training mode - I love training modes in games, and I like what you've done with them, but they shouldn't be mandatory. There are some people who really hate to train, and would prefer to muddle through the game on their own. A lot of my favorite games have training modes, and I like the idea of Batman reminding himself to train, but forcing players to train before a mission would probably just lead to frustration. The only time you can get away with mandatory training is at the very start of the game. Perhaps in the training, you can play 3 mini-games as young Bruce. Each one takes place in different country where you learn a different skill. One for combat, one for thrown weapons, and the last could either teach you detective work or how to use the glider (depending on how intuitive the glider function is). Or, maybe the last training stage takes place in the Batcave and is similar to the other in-game training modes that follow. This final stage is an overview of all the gadgets available, what they're best for, and how to use them.

Thank you so much for commenting.

I think perhaps you're right about the training. My biggest motive for setting it up that way is that I really wanted all or at the very least most of the Batman's moves to be available from the beginning. I hate how they insist on making you start from scratch. I think you've got the right idea, though, because if you're actually starting from the beginning, then it's okay.

I'm thinking that perhaps they could make it a current game with gradually accessible moves if they make them flashback sequences, but only if they're interspersed between with mostly exploratory/explanatory and FMV sequences towards the beginning. I don't want Rookie Batman hitting the streets in a fight without his moves, but I also wanted the game to start with the Batman as a seasoned detective and fighter with some incentive for upgrading.

Utility Belt - I think you really covered all the bases for the utility belt, I just have an idea for adding to a challenge to the game. I think Batman should have access to everything you listed, but he can only carry a small portion of those items. Basically, before a mission inside the batcave, the player has to decide -based on that mission- which tools he'll need most. Going into the pause menu and equiping whatever you want is too easy and it reminds the player that they are playing a video game. Having to choose what you can carry ahead of time creates a more interesting challenge, and forces you to think much more like the Batman probably would. I like the idea of having extra stock in the Batmobile, so long as the Batmobile's capacity is also limited (but still holds much more than the belt). More importantly, depending on where you've hid the car, the Batmobile may not arrive in time to provide you with what you need before you get whooped. Of course, the remote control for the car will be a standard belt item that won't take up any space.

The utility belt I have in mind-- the one diagrammed in 'Batman: the Ultimate Guide to the Dark Knight' which I actually haven't been able to find in months-- can actually hold most of what I listed, but perhaps not as many of each item at once. The grenades, bugs and bolas would be the thing to cut down on, I think. I really want all of the items I listed to be available while the Batman is on patrol/mission, but I could stand to see the player prompted to distribute the various grenades, tracing/listening devices, explosive charges and bolas to fit a limited space. I want to keep the Batarangs at the same capacity, though, since the high-tech utility belt I'm referencing has a special compartment for those in which they fold up and spring out. The shuriken also should have a set compartment, since they shouldn't take up too much space in general.

When I imagine the player/game interface for the belt, I see it two different ways that could both be used:
1) One thing I thought would be really cool for a pause menu inventory screen would be a close-up view of a huge 3-D Batman, similar to what was in 'Metal Gear Solid 3.' As you scroll through the different items you could choose, the screen moves swiftly to different places on the belt or cowl (and gloves, boots and/or trunks in the parts where you're captured and bound without your belt). Basically, your view would rotate around the utility belt and the Batman would

What you said about the car is true; it may not arrive in time to give you what you need in a certain scenario. You may have to retreat on foot (or by cape or cable). I'm assuming most of the time-- but not all of the time-- you need to reload, you'd be in the thick of battle or about to be, since you should always have the requisite entry/exit tools and communication/navigation devices for the other work he does (unless it's taken away from you by bad guys, which should be a few times in the game so you can make use of the different mini-tools at your disposal). The car is a mobile base of operations that you have to either return to or bring to you to so you can regroup.

The car would have about two or three times as much gear as the numbers I gave for the expendable items I listed, although it would have infinite med-kit supplies. Possibly also infinite Batarangs and smoke bombs, too. Batarangs allow you to make your own grappling hook in lieu of lost or possibly destroyed automatic grapnels, since you already have infinite Bat-line and a rope cutter that can sever it. Using this makeshift climbing/swinging line isn't as easy or fast as using a grapnel, though, since you have to climb up or down manually, you have less accuracy with a manually thrown batarang than you do a CO2-propelled projectile. In addition, the automatic grapnel can actually bite into solid surfaces and hold in place, unlike the Batarang. The Batarang is also reusable a lot of the time if it can be retrieved.


I'll keep working on completing this, and thanks again for your input.

 

[Herr Logan]

It'd also be nice if what you took in your utility belt determined how you went through the level. For instant, if didn't bring your lockpick, you might have to use your nightvision goggles to get through a dark area.

I like the way you think here, although the specifics of this idea wouldn't work quite the same.

The way I see it, you would never, ever be without a lockpick in the game as long as you were out wearing the Batsuit. I'd plan for you to be captured several times and some of those times have your utility belt taken away from you, but the Batman has lockpicks stored in his gloves, boots, his shorts-harness (in my game it would be a harness, because I'm still damn proud of that idea), etc. He'd also have miniature tools hidden in his costume. The difference would be if the Batman was trapped in a room or area with no visible locks, then he might have to use a screwdriver, but since someone mentioned that the smart thing to do would be to not have the hinges of the door facing inward where the Batman can mess with them (even if they are dumb enough to leave him with his cowl on instead of revelaing his identity while they have the chance-- something I could rationally justify if I had to), there might be something even more complicated you have to do. Also, there may be no visible screws or bolts anywhere for which your mini-tools would be effective. Just like the detective aspets of this game ida need to be fleshed out a lot, so do the "McGuyver" aspects (although I think the detective aspects take precedence, since they'll be more pervasive).

The stuff you carry in your utility belt will mostly be the same every time you leave the cave. The biggest changes would be which and how many of each type of grenade you want. However, the concept of "what are my options, which is the best tool" is exactly what I want to imbue a Batman game with. There are differences in every set of tools that accomplish the same feats (Batarang vs. shuriken, grapnel gun vs. the Batline/Batarang combo, cape-glide descent vs. jumpline descent, the flashlight vs. nightvision, smoke pellets vs. tear gas vs. flashbangs, Bat-cuffs vs. Batline makeshift restraints, diamond-edged rope cutter vs. bolt cutter, Batmobile vs. Batcycle, Batman persona intimidation vs. alternate ID reconnaissance, etc.)

Either way, there will always be lockpicks and there will always be screwdrivers. As long as he has his cowl, he'll also have nightvision available, but nightvision isn't always the best tool to use when searching in the dark. Only in uniformly dark areas is nightvision the best idea, so the Batman also has his finger-mounted high-powered flashlight. The flashlight indicates his presence, however, so if you were in a very dark area with other people you were stalking or were searching for you (just like in Splinter Cell games), you'd use your nightvision, possibly taking out remaining lights with batarangs or shuriken to increase your advantage while also trading the element of surprise for an increased fear factor.

Just like in the Splinter Cell games, there would be varying levels of alert for the people in your immediate vicinity, but unlike in those games, the more they're scared (most of them, anyway), the more mistakes they make and/or the more likely they are to run or surrender or curl up into a fetal positon and beg for mercy.

Unlike in 'Batman Begins,' the video game, crooks will not drop their guns and then not pick them up just because you do something noisy. You'll have infinitely more ways to scare unsuspecting crooks and they will most likely hold onto their guns even tighter, but their aim will be worse and they might actually drop it out of fear-induced clumsiness and the scramble to pick it up. They might also run away, right smack into a wall or other obstacle. With an advanced enough program, the possibilities are endless.

Anyway, bottom-line, you've got a good mind for this sort of thing, Zev, and I welcome any further ideas on this.

I'm still thinking about what you said about how the Batman could see "ghostly flashbacks" of what he thinks happened in a case he thinks he's solved. It reminded me of 'The Suffering' (an incredible game you all should play), and I think I would want to use that to an extent. I would also want to use those types of scenes to bring up painful memories for the Batman. His parents' murders, major failures in his career (Robin II getting killed, etc.), tragedies for his friends (Harvey Dent getting scarred, Barbara Gordon getting crippled, Sarah Essen murdered, etc.) as well as current in-game story cases could play out like ghostly (with literally translucent, bluish figures) reenactments that happen right in front of the Batman as the events of the story prompt emotional reactions and memories from him

I was talking with a friend of mine about how I'd want the story FMVs to happen, since ideally you would not have a third-person observer's view of anything outside of the Batman, Alfred, Robin and maybe Nightwing, to preserve the detective theme and tone. In an episode or comic book story, you'd see the villains and supporting cast doing their thing without the Batman knowing what's going on. If you're expected to figure things out for yourself (with the help of informants, allies and your extremely comprehensive database, of course), then you can't know how the story is unfolding outside of the fields of your own senses. Conversations can be recorded through planted bugs even when you're not listening in at the time, but you won't be able to process the information until you play the recordings. While you listen, you figure out what's going on bit by bit, and whatever the player him/herself may or may not pick up, the player interface notes everything the Batman realistically would glean from the intel and enters it into the Batcomputer and his current case log (the notes regarding a current, unsolved case or ongoing investigation). When the Batman recognizes a voice, he'll mention it, and after the recorded conversation is over, he'll comment on the whole thing, and the facts will be noted in the log. Here's the thing, though-- each piece of the puzzle that warrants an FMV will have possibly several pieces to itself, in which case an FMV will actually play in place of a recorded conversation or a retrieved letter or log when all the necessary facts are collected so that the Batman can imagine for the most part what exactly the criminals he's tracking are up to. Basically, if he figures out the intent or history suggested by the evidence, the stylistic and "non-essential" content of the event or exchange is filled in for the sake of the player. For example, if the Batman collects several pieces of evidence that point to the Joker having a meeting with his underlings and discussing a heist or planned hit or whatnot and all the essential facts are known, then the jokes and exact dialogue and so forth will be filled in by the shown FMV for the player's entertainment. Facts alone don't make for good Batman stories, since the characters have very colorful personalities. I'm not sure if I'm making sense or not, here, but I'll be happy to fill in the blanks if anyone wants me to clear it up or elaborate. Again, feel free to keep suggesting ideas, everybody.

 

[Zev]

To get a degree of progression without a "rookie Batman," here's my idea. Lucius Fox gets new "toys" for Bruce Wayne. Better armor, new Batarangs, what have you. For example, you go from the "shuriken" metal Batarangs in the movie to the more advanced, "boomerang" Batarangs. Or you go from heatvision goggles to nightvision goggles. You could even have a bit of RPG in it by having Lucius unable to move an unlimited amount of equipment without raising suspicion, so Batman has to pick and choose which items he's going to "purchase."

Maybe if you interrogate a thug who has no information, you can unlock Easter eggs. Sort of like the system in The Punisher, only based on fear instead of threats. After all, no one's afraid that Frank Castle is going to drink their blood.

Also, I'm still waiting for your thoughts on the fic. Must... have... feedback!

 

[Herr Logan]

To get a degree of progression without a "rookie Batman," here's my idea. Lucius Fox gets new "toys" for Bruce Wayne. Better armor, new Batarangs, what have you. For example, you go from the "shuriken" metal Batarangs in the movie to the more advanced, "boomerang" Batarangs. Or you go from heatvision goggles to nightvision goggles. You could even have a bit of RPG in it by having Lucius unable to move an unlimited amount of equipment without raising suspicion, so Batman has to pick and choose which items he's going to "purchase."

Maybe if you interrogate a thug who has no information, you can unlock Easter eggs. Sort of like the system in The Punisher, only based on fear instead of threats. After all, no one's afraid that Frank Castle is going to drink their blood.

Also, I'm still waiting for your thoughts on the fic. Must... have... feedback!

I'm still confused about the context for which you want me to comment on your fic. You said you wanted the feedback in another thread, not this one, right? If I commented here, I'd have to say outright that I thought it wasn't a faithful representation of Spider-Man. You had Peter Parker acting like a cold-blooded, murderous bastard (both in how he spoke to Harry Osborn in one scene and what he did to Eddie Brock in another) instead of a friendly neighborhood Spider-Man.

Now, if you wanted me to comment on it NOT based on the criteria for this thread (faithfulness), I'd still have the same problem. The reason I created this thread is the same reason I criticize movies and other products in these forums: I want faithful and well-made adaptations. I generally avoid fan fic threads and discussions because there's no universal rule for the intended faithfulness of a fan fic, and it's up to each writer what their intent is. If someone writes something that clearly does not accurately and adequately represent the source material (like almost every recent superhero movie), and claims it should be marketed as an official representation of those characters, then I say thee nay. If it's just for sh1ts and giggles and a personal form of expression that isn't meant as a statement regarding what should be done in a movie, then there's no need to denounce it, but I should refrain from critiquing it anyway, since I'm pretty literal-minded in general. If a story uses characters with the names of well-established and widely-known characters but they don't match up closely enough, I have trouble reconciling that, as many people here have seen.

 

[Zev]

Well, I was hoping you'd comment in the thread the fic was written in. And it was more of the sh1ts and giggles breed of story (sorta like an Elseworlds or AU).

 

[Herr Logan]

Well, I was hoping you'd comment in the thread the fic was written in. And it was more of the sh1ts and giggles breed of story (sorta like an Elseworlds or AU).

I haven't actually finished the story yet (I think I'm about halfway through), but I've been jotting down some notes ("notes" being primarily of the critical variety, to be perfectly honest... like I said, I could just PM them to you) and could post the ones I have so far. Did you want me to finish the whole thing first or post what I've written already?

 

[Zev]

Ah, wait til you finish.

Expanding on the idea of "levelling up" Batman's equipment in the hypothetical game, let's say he starts out with a cape that can merely be used as a parachute and advances to having the memory-cloth glider. With each addition, new realms of gameplay are opened up. Now he no longer has to run and jump and use his Bat-grapple, he can glide from rooftop to rooftop. And you go from having only the Batmobile to having a Batwing and Batboat and all that cool stuff.

Basically going from Batman: Year One to the Scary Batgod of the JLA titles.

As for plot, I'd love to see a gang war (kinda like War Games, only without the GIRLS BEING TORTURED BY POWER DRILLS! Yeah, that's still a little raw...), perhaps started by Ra's Al Ghul to destroy Gotham or distract Batman from his master plan. The Joker could basically be a wild card (he's not really the mastermind type) and the final level would have Batman racing to stop Ra's's('s's's's) plot while the Joker causes havoc.

 

[Herr Logan]

Ah, wait til you finish.

Expanding on the idea of "levelling up" Batman's equipment in the hypothetical game, let's say he starts out with a cape that can merely be used as a parachute and advances to having the memory-cloth glider. With each addition, new realms of gameplay are opened up. Now he no longer has to run and jump and use his Bat-grapple, he can glide from rooftop to rooftop. And you go from having only the Batmobile to having a Batwing and Batboat and all that cool stuff.

Basically going from Batman: Year One to the Scary Batgod of the JLA titles.

As for plot, I'd love to see a gang war (kinda like War Games, only without the GIRLS BEING TORTURED BY POWER DRILLS! Yeah, that's still a little raw...), perhaps started by Ra's Al Ghul to destroy Gotham or distract Batman from his master plan. The Joker could basically be a wild card (he's not really the mastermind type) and the final level would have Batman racing to stop Ra's's('s's's's) plot while the Joker causes havoc.

I just wanted to let you know that I'm not ignoring this post, I'm just taking longer because I have a lot to say in my response (that's a shock, right?).

 

[Head>On<Collider]

Awesome.

The one thing I want to make sure is that Doom did in fact purposefully send the robot in his place. What I suggested earlier either in this thread or somewhere else is that the weak-ass villain in the first movie be an extremely advanced robot on the level of a Terminator playing the part of the real Victor Von Doom, but its exposure to cosmic radiation altered it so that its artificial flesh gave way to its true nature and its programming (which was originally set so he didn't know he had robot superpowers) malfunctioned so it seemed as if it has just gained ablities and it didn't know how to handle it. The creature was supposed to be triggered by the real Doom at a strategic moment so it would know once again that it was a powerful servant of Doom, but before it was ever triggered, it was damaged so that it kept the belief that it was in fact Victor Von Doom and was supposed to be a normal human even though its true power was now revealing itself. The whole thing went unstable and it got its ass kicked by the Fantastic Four, because it was never supposed to be able to stand up to that kind of power in the first place.

The real Doom did not expect any of this to happen, so he resolves to use a different kind of robot, not intended to blend in with humans and not meant to impersonate Doom for long periods of time without Doom standing by to personally intervene should something go wrong. He would use less advanced Doombots as stand-ins during physical confrontations and as soldiers in military coups and defense maneuvers (not dressed in Doom's own garb in this capacity).

heh...

Well to be perfectly honest, it won't matter how kick a$$ of an idea this or anyone else's ideas may be to clean up after FF1... 'Cuz the damage is pretty much done and irreparable.
Moving on...

 

[Herr Logan]

Ah, wait til you finish.

Expanding on the idea of "levelling up" Batman's equipment in the hypothetical game, let's say he starts out with a cape that can merely be used as a parachute and advances to having the memory-cloth glider. With each addition, new realms of gameplay are opened up. Now he no longer has to run and jump and use his Bat-grapple, he can glide from rooftop to rooftop. And you go from having only the Batmobile to having a Batwing and Batboat and all that cool stuff.

Basically going from Batman: Year One to the Scary Batgod of the JLA titles.

As for plot, I'd love to see a gang war (kinda like War Games, only without the GIRLS BEING TORTURED BY POWER DRILLS! Yeah, that's still a little raw...), perhaps started by Ra's Al Ghul to destroy Gotham or distract Batman from his master plan. The Joker could basically be a wild card (he's not really the mastermind type) and the final level would have Batman racing to stop Ra's's('s's's's) plot while the Joker causes havoc.

I guess there should be some degree of leveling up in the game, although I would definitely have that be a minor aspect fo the game as I would rather the player be able to do whatever the Batman does without having to start fof as a rookie. A few flashback training sequences (spread out but clustered within the first act of the game... the first of a hell of a lot of acts, if the game is what it should be) should have you all set to continue to use all the Batman's moves, gadgets and detective skills throughout the game.

The cape-glider could be something you receive somewhere between the first act and the middle of the game. The comic book version has been without it thus far and my concept of 'Batman: Dark Knight Detective' is supposed to happen somewhere just before Commissioner Gordon retires, Robin quits the Batman's team and Leslie Thompkins ignored her Hippocratic Oath.
The Batman would still use his Bat-grapnel very often after he acquires the cape-glider, since it's still his quickest method of getting on top of rooftops and high objects. The cape-glider is good for descending from heights while also moving a good distance from the initial point of descent. Its advantages over the original cape would be the distance traveled, a softer landing with less risk of the Batman's feet, ankles and legs upon touchdown, and it can circumvent the need to use a jump line for high falls. Using a jump line for high falls requires a little bit of extra time and a makeshift batarang/ grapple (for if you’ve lost possession of both grapnel guns) takes even more time.

Using the Bat-grapnel entails the following: drawing the grapnel gun, aiming and firing, waiting for the grapnel to hit and anchor itself to an object or surface, waiting for the grapnel to retract all the slack (and gradually stop his descent if he's using it during a high fall, very similarly to how anti-lock brakes gradually but quickly stop a car and reduce the shock when you floor the brake pedal), and either retracting the cable to raise the Batman to a height or slowly descend from a height. To be sure, all of this would happen quickly, since the device was made specifically for convenience and versatility, and the Batman is well trained in using it. Still, during the kind of activities the Batman engages in, fractions of seconds make all the difference between success, failure and death.

That’s all for this line of thought, for now. I’m definitely not done with this as a concept, though. This is my new obsession, and you’re all incredibly lucky to bear witness to it.

 

[Zev]

Leslie Thompkins ignored her Hippocratic Oath.

Herr, you know how you are about organic webbing? I'm kinda like that about... well, anything Bill Willingham has ever done on Batman. Ever. At all.

 

[Herr Logan]

Herr, you know how you are about organic webbing? I'm kinda like that about... well, anything Bill Willingham has ever done on Batman. Ever. At all.

You mean like they'd have to pry your fervent, obsessive disapproval from your cold, dead hands?

Yeah, I know how that is.

 

[Sarge 2.0]

Herr, you know how you are about organic webbing? I'm kinda like that about... well, anything Bill Willingham has ever done on Batman. Ever. At all.

Heh, stay away from Leauger then.

 

[Herr Logan]

Should I open up a new thread in the games forum for a comprehensive exposition and discussion of my 'Batman: Dark Knight Detective' game idea? There's more to say and more to hear from my adoring fans, especially regarding the plot but also the features.

It seems that barely anyone posts here anymore unless I nag, so this is as good a place as any, but just in case someone other than myself wanted to talk about other media in which faithful superhero adaptations could be presented and wanted to put my latest obsession in its own little place, I could do that. I'd quote all posts regarding this game concept in the beginning.

What say ye?

 

[GL1]

Dude... the whole bluish ghostly memories for emotional content, or maybe Sepia images overlayed into the environment for the old times feel...

The FMVs that unlock based on what peices of the relevant case you've unlocked is ALSO quite awesome...

But I think I read something about no third person view? I can definitely feel that for the grapple, bataranging or for detective walkthroughs or even interrogation, but fighting from first person is... I can't quite conceive of a way for it to work because First-person doesn't give you the peripheral vision necessary to be an effective hand to hand fighter... nor cool karate moves to look at... would you consider a OTShoulder cameras for hand to hand combat situations, much like MGS?

 

[Herr Logan]

God dammit...

I just realized that my response to Zev's post about the cape glider wasn't as complete as I though I'd written out. I must have lost a more complete version of it and then just copied and pasted the document the last time I opened it. Feh!

One thing I know I wanted to say about that is that the Batman will only be allowed continued use of any upgrade/special items if he can use them competently. For example, if the Batman gains access to the memory cloth cape glider, takes a leap off a tall building and glides straight into something hard enough so that even if there was a ledge to grab onto, he's going too fast to make a graceful transition, that's "strike one" (if he can deploy the glider again in time to save himself from the fall he'd immediately experience. Three strikes and the cape glider is "out." He gets an automatic "out" if he attempts to use the cape glider and ends up taking a long fall that in any way injures him enough to slow him down on foot.

An "out" means that the Batman will decide to stop using the glider, since he's not an idiot and he's not too proud to admit (at least to himself, that is) that he's not ready to use the glider, since he's likely to get himself killed using it. The automatic penalty is that you can't use the cape glider the next night after you failed to use it properly. Keep in mind, although I haven't figured out exactly how the time ratio would be, it sure as hell wouldn't be 1 minute for 1 hour like it is in 'Spider-Man 2' and 'The Sims.' If you screw up with the glider badly enough, you may have to go home right away, which will leave less time to wait, but even if you screwed up at the very end of your night shift, you've got about 36 hours (within the game, and there are chunks of time that are overridden by the story, so it's not literally 36 hours for the player) before you can use the glider again. You have to train with it in the Cave (during the day is best, since you still have work to do out at night, even if you can't use your newest toy) until the Batman deems himself fit for using it. In the meantime, his original complement of equipment is certainly useful enough and he should be fun to play right from the moment you step out in full costume towards the beginning of the game, so it's not a huge deal.

GL1: I'm still working on my response to your post, so don't think I forgot you.

 

[Herr Logan]

Dude... the whole bluish ghostly memories for emotional content, or maybe Sepia images overlayed into the environment for the old times feel...

The FMVs that unlock based on what peices of the relevant case you've unlocked is ALSO quite awesome...

But I think I read something about no third person view? I can definitely feel that for the grapple, bataranging or for detective walkthroughs or even interrogation, but fighting from first person is... I can't quite conceive of a way for it to work because First-person doesn't give you the peripheral vision necessary to be an effective hand to hand fighter... nor cool karate moves to look at... would you consider a OTShoulder cameras for hand to hand combat situations, much like MGS?

Thanks for speaking up, GL1.

I must have misspoke (mistyped) before when I said that, because I certainly didn't mean that your actual on-screen view would be first-person. That would be the most idiotic thing you could ever do with a Batman video game. I mean really! That's one thing that was extremely wrong with most James Bond games; the fact that a fully functional action hero who jumps, falls, and fights hand-to-hand was stuck in a first person shooter format. You could never get away with that with a Batman game and still call yourself a rational human being. The Batman should be seen in all his glory.

What I actually meant was that in terms of story progression, you would only see story content that was reasonably accessible to the character you're playing. The only points of view you see from are the Batman, Alfred, Robin, possibly Nightwing and possibly other characters on the side of "good" (like Commissioner Gordon, Sgt. Harvey Bullock or Detective Montoya). You wouldn't see the villains plotting in secret like you would while watching the TV show, a movie or reading the comics. You would see those elements once you'd gathered enough clues or been given enough information that you could reasonably estimate what's going on behind the scenes. That is, the stylistic elements of the scenes will be basically the villains being villains (entertaining and extremely eccentric), but what they say they’re doing, going to do or have already done depends on how much the Batman has learned, so that’s why you’d have to wait.

Hey, I just got another idea!
My concept has been that, as you gather clues and receive information through any source, you see FMVs and/or memory and image flashes that demonstrate the parties responsible for the problem being investigated and the exchanges and actions that are taking place, have taken place recently or will soon take place.
Now I'm thinking that maybe you could see multiple versions of these scenarios, signifying the Batman considering his options and extrapolating according to what he knows about crime in Gotham. If a crime or suspicious act has been committed that seems bizarre or indicative of involvement by a member of the Batman's rogues gallery and concrete proof isn't readily available, several consecutive FMVs featuring different suspects could play with accompanying narration by the Batman. This could happen automatically or it could be prompted by a list of suspects generated by the Batman, with each one showing a different villain performing essentially the same act via different means.

As more evidence and hearsay is observed, the FMVs will become replay with more detail and content and the current case log (an information menu under the umbrella menu of the Batman's personal memory) will change in accordance with the facts. The most direct fact-to-FMV progression would be if the Batman records conversations and/or video recordings with his surveillance equipment. I had forgotten I wanted to use something similar to ‘Splinter Cell’s’ sticky cameras, so I forgot to list those in addition to listening devices and tracking devices. I’m thinking that there would be a very limited supply of those, though. I’d prefer the player observe exchanges personally with binoculars and the directional microphones in his cowl and use listening devices from which he can hear the audio feed while he’s moving around at night or during the day while he’s in the Cave or operating as Bruce Wayne. As much as I was absolutely blown away with the sticky camera idea when I got into the ‘Splinter Cell’ games, I have to concede that the Batman doesn’t use that very often. Perhaps they can be special items that are available at a certain point in the game, like the cape glider.

Other things you could do to gather information without directly involving yourself in a verbal exchange to is hack computers for e-mails and documents and also confiscate hard-copy letters, memos and documents and/or scan them with a miniature camera. By scanning incriminating documents, you gain the information without necessarily arousing suspicion by the suspects that you’re on their trail (I say “necessarily” because there are many other ways to leave evidence that you’re meddling in their affairs). One of the downsides to that is that there’s a chance you’ll never see the hard copy again, which means you can give it to the police as incriminating evidence pursuant to a conviction. I’m not entirely clear on what will or will not hold up in court if delivered by an “anonymous informant,” but for the time being, I’m assuming that the hard copy of a document is worth more than a digital picture of it (which could have been fabricated). That doesn’t mean it would work that way, necessarily.
You can also disguise yourself as a civilian (usually a lowlife) and listen in on people, sometimes even joining in a conversation. This is a risky situation, but not only can it be very rewarding, but also you would be required to do it several times in the game.
Hearsay is not hard evidence, though, so merely listening in or being told information does not seal the deal for a conviction in court.

As you might guess from the previous section, securing convictions is one of the goals of the game. The Batman can beat up crooks all day and still have to do it again the following week. He works with the law to keep criminals behind bars if he can. The primary goal is to prevent the bad guys from hurting people, but preventing a crime in the first place is a priority as well as making sure the perps get locked up after they do it. There should be a set of guidelines in the Bat-computer database (in the game) describing criminal investigations procedures and the law. Obviously, you’re not expected to follow procedure like the police are, but the evidence you give them has to be useable in court, or else your detective skills can only get you so far. The Batman does his own investigating so he’ll know who did what, but after he gets that far and then confronts the criminal, he has to do something with them. Usually, the suspect is stupid or crazy enough to try to defeat you with force, and after you put them down, you can’t simply leave them tied up for the police and expect that to be the end of it.
Merely stopping a crime and defeating a criminal earns you credit as an urban legend (the thing you’re constantly trying to maintain), but it is not as effective as securing a conviction on top of that and it also won’t earn you any points with the police, as they’ll just be frustrated that they can’t keep the criminal locked up.

Fortunately, for many crooks, you don’t have to go the distance and gather overwhelming amounts of evidence for the police to charge them and for the D.A. to present in court. A large portion of the enemies you will encounter will be:
a. Wanted felons with outstanding warrants who will be charged on one or more counts independently of whatever you caught them doing, and/or
b) Part of the “superstitious and cowardly lot” that, with the proper encouragement, will be scared to death of you and will actually turn themselves in if you ask them “nicely,” rather than face more of your wrath, and/or
c) Parolees who need precious little incriminating evidence to throw back in prison if they are caught consorting with known felons, in possession of a firearm, or otherwise involved in illegal activity. Many of the people you’ll be facing will have a prior record, which means they’re on parole at best or at least in the Bat-computer database (which means you have information on them to work with).

There are other options for those low-level crooks as well. However, there are many criminals out there, insane or not, who do not fear the Batman enough to simply fold under pressure, even after a beating. His rogue’s gallery is pretty much all composed of people who need to be beaten into submission or otherwise incapacitated as well as incriminated by evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. There are exceptions, though. The Ventriloquist would be a good example. If you successfully destroy the dummy (which would require you to take out all his goons and traps first), you’re just left with Arnold Wesker, a criminally insane person who has a weak will without Scarface and would likely be either on parole or an escaped fugitive. To balance out the ease with which you could send Wesker right back to Arkham Asylum, the mystery and physical labors challenge up to his capture would have to be substantial. The Ventriloquist’s alternate personality is a criminal genius, after all.

 

[Zev]

My blueprint for a Black Panther movie.

For one thing, I'd like to go in a very real-world feeling. The only obvious sci-fi elements would be Black Panther's suit (which would be very Tom Clancy, "just around the corner" kind of stuff. No laser beams or teleport beams) and vibranium. And none of this inferiority complex Hudlin bull either. Wakanda is basically a very prosperous and rich nation (the jewel of Africa, say) but not a utopia.

Second, start out with the Black Panther well into his career. T'Chaka has already freed his people from their former oppressors and set up Wakanda as a formidable entity, the equal of America or Russia. Most of its economy is based on vibranium, which among its many uses can be turned into (say it with me now) a weapon who's user is invincible. So let's say that our Black Panther, a Wesley Snipes/Djimon Hounsou type, is experienced, lethal, a mastermind... generally someone you don't want to mess with. But with a character so inscrutable you need an "in," a character the audience can relate to (so when the main character goes "We can't do that!" someone in the movie can say "Why?" so the main character can say "Because..." and then the audience says "Ah" and all is right with the world). Think Wolverine and Rogue in X-Men or Watson in the Sherlock Holmes mythos.

In this case, it'll be Luke Charles. Orphan. His mother died a few years ago. He never knew his father. Luke Charles is studying for the bar in the Greater New York area. A brilliant legal mind, he nevertheless has a flaw that will have thematic similarity in T'Chaka and in Wakanda as a whole. Isolationism. He keeps to himself, is unwilling to fight for anything as long as his life is not in direct danger. This being the movies, he'll of course get an attitude adjustment as things go on. But first, let's illustrate the problem. On a quiet evening, he sees two racist cops harassing another black man. He could speak up but... he doesn't.

That night, a team of Marines suddenly deploys in his campus. He's quickly "extracted" from his dorm and loaded onto a Black Hawk helicopter, opposite U.S. Ambassador Everett K. Ross. Ross is ambassador to Wakanda, and since Wakanda wants nothing to do with... well, anyone, it's pretty much a do-nothing job. He got it because his father is a powerful Washington insider. He spends his days practicing his golf stroke... until one day, out of the blue, the Wakandan embassy issued a simple threat/request. Bring Luke Charles to us... or else.

Needless to say, Ross hopped to. In short order it turns out that Luke Charles is in reality T'Challa... T'Chaka's bastard son by an aide worker who visited Wakanda. T'Chaka allowed T'Challa to be raised in America to be protected from his political enemies (such as Erik Killmonger, the next in line for the throne... until T'Challa's existence was revealed) and to get the best education possible (like I said, Wakanda wasn't always the powerhouse it is now).

On the way to Wakanda, T'Challa's flight has a stopover in a wartorn neighboring country. An ethnic cleansing campaign is underway. T'Challa is shocked at the brutal conditions... and even more shocked when he sees the pristine, high-tech world of Wakanda. There, T'Challa begins training with the father he never knew he had, while trying to manuever through the political intrigue of the kingdom. He has to deal with assassins and Killmonger, who isn't happy about having his lust for power denied. Finally, it comes to light that Killmonger has been stealing weapons from the royal armory and smuggling them to the regime in the neighboring country. Killmonger isn't particular about which country he rules. He's using his weapons to take control of a neighboring country... and extermining all the dissidents with his shock troops.

T'Chaka's reaction is... nothing. His responsibility is to Wakanda and this doesn't affect Wakanda. Why should he care? Because they're people, T'Challa argues. After a inspiring speech from the changed T'Challa, T'Chaka agrees to fight against Killmonger.

The Wakandan army clashes with Killmonger's troops in a huge action setpiece. As T'Chaka directs the action from his command center, T'Challa is on the front lines... in the uniform of the Black Panther. He and Killmonger meet on the battlefield (that's how these things usually work).

"I ALWAYS should have been the Black Panther, outsider. You're nothing but a pretender to the throne and the mask," he hisses. "You're going to die today and for what? A people who are not even your own."

"All men are my people."

Followed by Black Panther doing something stupendously clever which sends Killmonger to his grave. Wakanda defeats the enemy army.

At the victory celebration, T'Chaka tells T'Challa he's proud of him. And now... he's going on a well-deserved vacation. Over T'Challa's protests, T'Chaka tells him that it's his country now... don't screw it up.

"But don't worry, I'll check in now and then to make sure you're not in over your head."

The next day brings a new leadership. Wakanda's borders are open. Doctors and other relief workers swamp the neighboring countries, bringing humanitarian relief. Moreover, T'Challa has opened up preliminary trade agreements with the rest of the world, loaning amounts of vibranium to other countries for scientific research. One batch of vibranium finds its way to a secret base, where a metal hand caresses it. Klaw has begun to draw his plans against Wakanda..