Civil War Scarlett Johansson is back - The Official Black Widow / Natasha Romanoff Thread

[Webfoot Hero]

Can't believe people are still talking only about relationships in here and the Sharon Carter thread. Seems the only thing women characters are good for in discussing these films are their relationship status and pairing compatibility with other team members.

 

[TeeKay]

Reading the last couple of pages felt like it was leading up to this..

 

[Webfoot Hero]

Reading the last couple of pages felt like it was leading up to this..

Sure has. It's basically been the same people arguing the same issue over multiple threads, which has made posting the last week or so a non-priority for me until something else pops up that's newsworthy.

 

[Suzanne78]

Has it been said how many weeks Scarlett's filming?

 

[crapcom]

Sure has. It's basically been the same people arguing the same issue over multiple threads, which has made posting the last week or so a non-priority for me until something else pops up that's newsworthy.

Nothing is newsworthy right now unless news confirm that Black Widow will be on Tony's side.

 

[TalismanRing]

Has it been said how many weeks Scarlett's filming?

No, but she's been there over 3 weeks already and I haven't read anything about it being a limited shoot for as with Renner and Olsen.

 

[Minxie]

Has it been said how many weeks Scarlett's filming?

I remember trying to get someone to ask her that question during the aou press tour via twitter but with no success. I'd love to know for sure how substantial her part is. I like to think that the fact the Russos brought up her name so quickly when talking about who would be in the movie, back in January, means it's not a small role.

 

[Hellrider]

Just here to chime in and give my poke to the beaten to death horse that is BruTasha. I personally didn't have a problem with their relationship; I personally didn't think their relationship was ever a love relationship. By that I mean, there was more of a flirtation element and along the lines of wanting to connect with someone who was a kindred spirit; it was more about that longing for connection than the connection itself. I believe Joss used this more as a means to exploring their internal issues more than giving the movie a love story element.

Using this faux-love story, we find that Natasha has a haunted past and truly wants to find some semblance of normality and feels like she can find that in someone who also seeks the same thing; she values a man who doesn't value his power because she's always been around men and woman (including herself) who've abused it and her tragic past is just an indication of that. We also find, though most fans who've watched TIH would know, that Bruce also seeks some semblance of normality and will never find it because he's haunted by his inner green demon; he also can't be with anyone he loves because if he truly loved them, he knows he'd only do them harm.

This is why I think Joss chose Bruce/Natasha over Clint/Natasha; we get far more character seep out of the interaction of Bruce and Natasha that really lends to their development and character exploration of each of them in Age of Ultron. I don't think it'll be a love interest that'll be a through-line in the MCU.

 

[RedRose]

Just here to chime in and give my poke to the beaten to death horse that is BruTasha. I personally didn't have a problem with their relationship; I personally didn't think their relationship was ever a love relationship. By that I mean, there was more of a flirtation element and along the lines of wanting to connect with someone who was a kindred spirit; it was more about that longing for connection than the connection itself. I believe Joss used this more as a means to exploring their internal issues more than giving the movie a love story element.

Using this faux-love story, we find that Natasha has a haunted past and truly wants to find some semblance of normality and feels like she can find that in someone who also seeks the same thing; she values a man who doesn't value his power because she's always been around men and woman (including herself) who've abused it and her tragic past is just an indication of that. We also find, though most fans who've watched TIH would know, that Bruce also seeks some semblance of normality and will never find it because he's haunted by his inner green demon; he also can't be with anyone he loves because if he truly loved them, he knows he'd only do them harm.

This is why I think Joss chose Bruce/Natasha over Clint/Natasha; we get far more character seep out of the interaction of Bruce and Natasha that really lends to their development and character exploration of each of them in Age of Ultron. I don't think it'll be a love interest that'll be a through-line in the MCU.

I agree with this. It wasn't love- it was more the hope of it.

 

[Shikamaru]

As I stated before, conceptually there was nothing wrong with the idea. The problem was the execution. It seems most arguments in favor of it argue more in defense of the idea rather than in defense of how it was handled.

Also, to play devil's advocate, the same argument Hellrider listed could have almost been applied just as much to MCU's Clint.

 

[hafizbat]

^Agreed.

The romance seriously hurt the movie, and severely handicapped two very compelling Avengers. That's not to say that exploring love and passion isn't a viable way to develop these characters, but IMO it just wasn't done well.

Both Widow and Hulk were very, very downgraded from their previously excellent characterizations. At least we got some great material with Nat in TWS, but I was very excited to see where they would take Ruffalo's Banner and was seriously disappointed.

Again, great idea but poor execution.

 

[Spitfire]

As I stated before, conceptually there was nothing wrong with the idea. The problem was the execution. It seems most arguments in favor of it argue more in defense of the idea rather than in defense of how it was handled.

I think the idea was flawed as well. Introducing romance, close friendships etc. isn't a problem when you chose the right characters to pair up. These two just don't belong together - if a writer needs to notably change previous characterisations to make a relationship work then the concept is flawed imo. Add in the poor execution and its a recipe for problems.

 

[Mike5575]

I saw this on Reddit. Poor Scarlett.

[YT]OGjnqIaKh2A[/YT]

 

[Knight_SV]

Widow is popular, thanks to ScarJo. However she is too overexposed now. And i really don't how she played the main female back in TWS. I have read Caps comic about winter soldier's saga and Sharon plays very large role to it and TWS had Widow replace Sharon's role.

 

[Mike5575]

Widow is popular, thanks to ScarJo. However she is too overexposed now. And i really don't how she played the main female back in TWS. I have read Caps comic about winter soldier's saga and Sharon plays very large role to it and TWS had Widow replace Sharon's role.

And why do you think that is? Scarjo is a top billing actress. The movies are of course different than the comics. Was Sharon an established character in the comics before TWS comic? If so, that may explain why she had a bigger role in the comic book storyline. This probably expains why she had such a small role in TWS. Cap had no clue who she was yet.

 

[Voltron]

Do you guys think Scarjo was a top billing actress before Black Widow? Or just a bigger, and recognisable name?

 

[Spitfire]

And why do you think that is? Scarjo is a top billing actress. The movies are of course different than the comics. Was Sharon an established character in the comics before TWS comic? If so, that may explain why she had a bigger role in the comic book storyline. This probably expains why she had such a small role in TWS. Cap had no clue who she was yet.

The only problem with this argument is Falcon. This character got introduced in TWS and the Russo's did a great job establishing Sam as Cap's friend. They could have done the same with Sharon. Whatever the reason for giving BW such a large role, not being able to introduce a new character wasn't one of them.

Do you guys think Scarjo was a top billing actress before Black Widow? Or just a bigger, and recognisable name?

Scarjo was just another Hollywood actress before the Avengers which transformed her career. But, Ruffalo and Renner were just indie movie actors and Marvel transformed RDJs, Hemsworths and Evans careers as well.

I understand that studios exist to make money but casting the big name doesn't always make for the best movie. Fans see characters and stories differently to Marvel.

 

[Voltron]

Scarjo was just another Hollywood actress before the Avengers which transformed her career. But, Ruffalo and Renner were just indie movie actors and Marvel transformed RDJs, Hemsworths and Evans careers as well.

I understand that studios exist to make money but casting the big name doesn't always make for the best movie. Fans see characters and stories differently to Marvel.

I think BW boosted her career, and popularity and the same goes with the other Avengers actors. Like what was said in the Sharon thread, it helped that BW was the first and only female Avenger. Since they introduced Olsen's Scarlet Witch, it made me realise even more that the characterisation of MCU BW is somewhat lacking.

 

[Stevie2020]

The only problem with this argument is Falcon. This character got introduced in TWS and the Russo's did a great job establishing Sam as Cap's friend. They could have done the same with Sharon. Whatever the reason for giving BW such a large role, not being able to introduce a new character wasn't one of them.



Scarjo was just another Hollywood actress before the Avengers which transformed her career. But, Ruffalo and Renner were just indie movie actors and Marvel transformed RDJs, Hemsworths and Evans careers as well.

I understand that studios exist to make money but casting the big name doesn't always make for the best movie. Fans see characters and stories differently to Marvel.

Big names (A listers?) would probably not have been cost-effective for these movies. Marvel went with competent actors with some history, if not marquee value. I guess they also wanted character to come before celebrity.

Of the original 6, the only actor I hadn't ever heard of and whose work I had never seen was Evans; Hemsworth has a shorter US filmography but I remember him vividly from the Star Trek reboot.

 

[MbJ]

Whatever the reason for giving BW such a large role, not being able to introduce a new character wasn't one of them.

They worked her into the plot because she was the Avenger with the most logical reason to be there, seeing as she's also a SHIELD agent with ties to Fury and Steve. They tried to include Hawkeye as well in a smaller capacity but Jeremy Renner couldn't make it.

As for Sharon, it's understandable that they gave her such a small role. Besides having to now introduce another new supporting hero alongside Sam, you suddenly have to find a satisfactory way to delve into all that stuff about Peggy being her relative and stuff like that. The creative team probably felt that wasn't worth slowing down the movie for.

However she is too overexposed now.

I roll my eyes whenever this statement comes up. This is the third Captain America movie (fifth appearance over all) and Iron Man's sixth. A whole mess of returning Avengers and supporting characters are returning as well. But somehow Widow is the one who is overexposed for this appearance.

 

[Spitfire]

Big names (A listers?) would probably not have been cost-effective for these movies. Marvel went with competent actors with some history, if not marquee value. I guess they also wanted character to come before celebrity.

You can appreciate that during phase 1 Marvel would not want to pay A - lister salaries. ScarJo wasn't their first choice for BW though, and I recall they wanted Emily Blunt? But they did hire Norton over Ruffalo for TIH based on the former having a higher profile so star power isn't everything.

They worked her into the plot because she was the Avenger with the most logical reason to be there, seeing as she's also a SHIELD agent with ties to Fury and Steve. They tried to include Hawkeye as well in a smaller capacity but Jeremy Renner couldn't make it.

As for Sharon, it's understandable that they gave her such a small role. Besides having to now introduce another new supporting hero alongside Sam, you suddenly have to find a satisfactory way to delve into all that stuff about Peggy being her relative and stuff like that. The creative team probably felt that wasn't worth slowing down the movie for.

I like to think that M/M base all of their writing decisions on the effectiveness of the script, but who knows? Hawkeye would have been a great alternative and I'm sure Renner would have made time for a bigger role. But Whedon stated he requested Hawkeye be absent from any major stories in phase 2 (same for Banner) so I think AoU is the likely reason for BW getting such a prominent role in TWS. Which is ironic when you consider that Whedon ignored so much from TWS!

I roll my eyes whenever this statement comes up. This is the third Captain America movie (fifth appearance over all) and Iron Man's sixth. A whole mess of returning Avengers and supporting characters are returning as well. But somehow Widow is the one who is overexposed for this appearance.

BW has received more exposure than Hawkeye and Ruffalo's Banner though. Cap, IM, and Thor understandably get the most exposure but if anyone needs more screentime in phase 3 its Hawkeye, Banner (not going to happen until IW ) and the new characters. After CW the MCU would benefit from focusing on other characters.

 

[Mike5575]

I roll my eyes whenever this statement comes up. This is the third Captain America movie (fifth appearance over all) and Iron Man's sixth. A whole mess of returning Avengers and supporting characters are returning as well. But somehow Widow is the one who is overexposed for this appearance.

Yeah, but they are more popular, and instead of getting a Black Widow movie, Marvel opts to spread her throughout the MCU instead of making a solo film. She's the only Avenger that has been in both a Captain America and Iron Man film. TBH, I'm getting a little tired of Cap and IM as well. That's why Marvel is introducing newer characters in phase 3.

 

[Shikamaru]

Having BW in the role she had in TWS made more sense than using Sharon IMO. I didn't mind, but I think Sharon should have more and more of a presence as we go forward.

 

[MbJ]

Yeah, but they are more popular...

And if she were the only returning character in the film maybe I'd see some merit to that argument, but she's not.

 

[Voltron]

In a way BW is overexposed compared to other characters without their own MCU franchise. She was basically the co-main lead with Cap in TWS. It didn't help that the Hulktasha storyline was the weakest in that movie and felt like it was done only so characters without a franchise had more screen time.