Season 6, Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" Discussion Thread

[Matt]

They went to the houses. They weren't listening. They had to attack before the snow made it impossible. Sansa knows she did something wrong, it is apparent when Brienne points it out to her.

Littlefinger is playing on the idea that Sansa sees her brother as nothing but a bastard, but somehow sees him as something more. That will be his downfall. He is underestimating Sansa, he is underestimating Jon.

You actually think Jon isn't going to be in control of the North when Dany shows up? You think Littlefinger is going to be bossing? Why?

Because narratively it makes more sense. We have probably 14-18 episodes left. Dany isn't going to fly into Westeros and say, "Okay, we're all united now, lets have a bunch of epic battles and fight off the White Walkers until we get our happily ever after." There is still plenty of scheming and plotting to be had.


Littlefinger may not control the North, but he will likely be the puppet master. Much as Tyrion is serving as advisor to Dany (who is in over her heard politically), he will likely start to do the same with Jon. Remember, we as the audience see him as sinister and creepy because we have seen his worst moments. To most people in Westeros, he is a funny, charming, smart, person who presents no threat. That is why he was able to scheme his way into as much power as he has. He's not going to say "SANSA MARRIES ME OR I KILL YOU ALL!" He is going to play the cards that are dealt, whatever they may be. He may very well simply ride back south and start accumulating power there (remember, Baelish loves a power vacuum and if Cersei's plan is what everyone suspects and the results are Tommen's death, there will be a huge vacuum).

My guess is, he basically weasels his way into an advisory role for Sansa and Jon (much like Tyrion is to Dany) and uses that to consolidate a bit more power.

Beyond that, from a narrative perspective, Littlefinger isn't going to just be swatted off of Sansa's shoulder like a pesky bug. It is important to remember, Baelish is the person who started EVERYTHING by killing Jon Arynn. He is the guy who, either directly or indirectly, orchestrated every conflict in the narrative, aside from the White Walkers and the stuff going on in Essos. If there is a big bad other than the Night King, it is Baelish. EVERYTHING that has happened in Westeros is part of a long and intricate scheme he has been running, from before the time the first book even began. It would be supremely disappointing, narratively, for that to be thwarted before we ever see the end game or his plan coming to fruition. He should be stopped at the height of his power, not while he is still accumulating it.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

It is important to remember this: Sansa is her mother's daughter. Sansa never liked Jon very much, at least in terms of the narrative in the book. The two were never close, the least close of the Stark children. That is why the first thing Sansa does, upon seeing Jon again, is apologize for how she treated him. She, like Cat, viewed him as a sign of shame. He was a bastard who had no business living in Winterfell (remember, it is rare for a lord to bring up a bastard in his house, amongst his natural children). Moreover, like Cat, she viewed him (and treated him) like an outsider. That is why Petyr's "your half-brother" line is so important. It sows seeds of doubt that had been planted in Sansa years ago.

Then consider Jon's plan. He was rejecting her idea to reach out to other houses for help, instead relying almost entirely on a Wildling army. Sansa is no exception to Northern culture. The Wildlings are the boogeymen that Northerners tell their children about as scary bed time stories. The Wildlings raid Northern villages, pillaging and plundering, killing their men and raping their women. Jon's thumbs his nose at the great houses of the North and instead relies on these savage rapists and murders. A proper lady like Sansa would not be fond of that idea.

Basically, everything Jon has done this season, since reuniting with his sister, has kind of reinforced the negative view that she already had of him. Everyone is assuming that it is now Jon and Sansa vs Littlefinger, but I wouldn't be surprised if the conflict between Jon and Sansa is just beginning. Remember, Littlefinger is a master at playing two sides against the middle. I am sure he will be doing it here.

I wouldn't go so far as to say she saw him the same way Cat did or that she didn't like him. He was still her blood. Cat on the other hand had no relation to him.

Also, this Sansa is no longer "a proper lady". The writers in fact said something to that effect about this episode.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

Because narratively it makes more sense. We have probably 14-18 episodes left. Dany isn't going to fly into Westeros and say, "Okay, we're all united now, lets have a bunch of epic battles and fight off the White Walkers until we get our happily ever after." There is still plenty of scheming and plotting to be had.


Littlefinger may not control the North, but he will likely be the puppet master. Much as Tyrion is serving as advisor to Dany (who is in over her heard politically), he will likely start to do the same with Jon. Remember, we as the audience see him as sinister and creepy because we have seen his worst moments. To most people in Westeros, he is a funny, charming, smart, person who presents no threat. That is why he was able to scheme his way into as much power as he has. He's not going to say "SANSA MARRIES ME OR I KILL YOU ALL!" He is going to play the cards that are dealt, whatever they may be. He may very well simply ride back south and start accumulating power there (remember, Baelish loves a power vacuum and if Cersei's plan is what everyone suspects and the results are Tommen's death, there will be a huge vacuum).

My guess is, he basically weasels his way into an advisory role for Sansa and Jon (much like Tyrion is to Dany) and uses that to consolidate a bit more power.

Everything that has happened in Westeros below the Wall has been a side story. They have ripped Westeros apart, leaving them vunerable to both Dany and the Whiter Walkers. Which is exactly why

Beyond that, from a narrative perspective, Littlefinger isn't going to just be swatted off of Sansa's shoulder like a pesky bug. It is important to remember, Baelish is the person who started EVERYTHING by killing Jon Arynn. He is the guy who, either directly or indirectly, orchestrated every conflict in the narrative, aside from the White Walkers and the stuff going on in Essos. If there is a big bad other than the Night King, it is Baelish. EVERYTHING that has happened in Westeros is part of a long and intricate scheme he has been running, from before the time the first book even began. It would be supremely disappointing, narratively, for that to be thwarted before we ever see the end game or his plan coming to fruition. He should be stopped at the height of his power, not while he is still accumulating it.

He will be stopped by those he thought below him (Starks) and the one thing he cares about (Cat/Sansa). Petyr is irrelevant. All this squabbling done by those in the South has been irrelevant. Which is why he will die irrelevant.

 

[Matt]

I wouldn't go so far as to say she saw him the same way Cat did or that she didn't like him. He was still her blood. Cat on the other hand had no relation to him.

Also, this Sansa is no longer "a proper lady". The writers in fact said something to that effect about this episode.

I wouldn't say that she disliked him. But she certainly was not fond of him. She nothinged him. She say him as a sign of Ned's shame who should've been working as a blacksmith somewhere rather than being raised as a Stark child.

And even if she isn't a proper lady, those notions from her childhood remain and are all that is needed for Petyr to sow just a little bit of doubt in her. Hell, I don't even know why this is a discussion. Petyr's plan already worked. That is why she did not tell Jon about him to begin with.

 

[Matt]

He will be stopped by those he thought below him (Starks) and the one thing he cares about (Cat/Sansa). Petyr is irrelevant. All this squabbling done by those in the South has been irrelevant. Which is why he will die irrelevant.

He is far from irrelevant. He is the most important character from a narrative perspective. None of the events of the show happen without him. To write him off in such an anti-climactic manner would be a disservice to the audience.

Also, you have to keep in mind, although the show has strayed from the book, it is following the same general outline that Martin gave the producers. Sansa has even less reason to hate Baelish in the books as he never gave her to Ramsay. To book Sansa, Baelish is basically her savior and her mentor. He is to her what Jon Arynn was to Ned (well, not exactly, but you get the point). Her turning on him so suddenly makes even less sense in that context. My point is this: Sansa has no reason to betray Baelish. She is home. That is really all she wants. She has no reason to kill him and take his army. Even she has need of it, he is already her ally. It just doesn't fit with her motivations.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

I wouldn't say that she disliked him. But she certainly was not fond of him. She nothinged him. She say him as a sign of Ned's shame who should've been working as a blacksmith somewhere rather than being raised as a Stark child.

Well that's a matter of interpretation since she never actually said any of that in the books.

 

[Matt]

Well that's a matter of interpretation since she never actually said any of that in the books.

There are certainly suggestions of it.

1) We know how Cat viewed him (and its exactly as I described it) and as we have been told, Sansa is more like Cat than any of her children.

2) There is this line from A Game of Thrones:

"He missed the girls too, even Sansa, who never called him anything but “my half brother” since she was old enough to understand what bastard meant."

That certainly implies a patronizing relationship between the two.

3) I can't find the exact likne, but there is a POV chapter in A Game of Thrones in which Sansa thinks how she would prefer it if Arya were a bastard like "her half-brother" whom she reminds Sansa of. There is then a bit of internal dialogue about how Jon's mother was "common" (like Arya behaves). It is basically designed to show how Sansa looks down upon those whom she perceives as beneath her (and she includes Jon in that group).

 

[DarthSkywalker]

He is far from irrelevant. He is the most important character from a narrative perspective. None of the events of the show happen without him. To write him off in such an anti-climactic manner would be a disservice to the audience.

Also, you have to keep in mind, although the show has strayed from the book, it is following the same general outline that Martin gave the producers. Sansa has even less reason to hate Baelish in the books as he never gave her to Ramsay. To book Sansa, Baelish is basically her savior and her mentor. He is to her what Jon Arynn was to Ned (well, not exactly, but you get the point). Her turning on him so suddenly makes even less sense in that context. My point is this: Sansa has no reason to betray Baelish. She is home. That is really all she wants. She has no reason to kill him and take his army. Even she has need of it, he is already her ally. It just doesn't fit with her motivations.

The reason all of this is important is because it has prepared the Starks for the battle. But outside of that, it is irrelevant. As these squabbles mean nothing. Who ends up on the Iron Throne means nothing. What matters is the army of the dead.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

@Matt: It still doesn't exactly suggest that she saw him "as a sign of Ned's shame who should've been working as a blacksmith somewhere rather than being raised as a Stark child." She may not have been as fond of him as she was of her other siblings but she probably cared more for him than she cared for someone like say Theon Greyjoy or Hodor.

Also Jon's view of her (missing her) strongly suggests that she at least treated him a lot better than Cat did. He really did not like Cat at all.

 

[TJByrum]

The reason all of this is important is because it has prepared the Starks for the battle. But outside of that, it is irrelevant. As these squabbles mean nothing. Who ends up on the Iron Throne means nothing. What matters is the army of the dead.

And when that army of the dead is gone, people will return to their original ways.

Someone is going to sit on that throne, whether or not the dead come.

EDIT: Also worth mentioning, any army commanded by a Stark has never lost in the series. They have multiple victories and no losses.
EDIT2: Red Wedding wasn't exactly a battle, so I would not count that.

 

[DarthSkywalker]

And when that army of the dead is gone, people will return to their original ways.

Someone is going to sit on that throne, whether or not the dead come.

EDIT: Also worth mentioning, any army commanded by a Stark has never lost in the series. They have multiple victories and no losses.
EDIT2: Red Wedding wasn't exactly a battle, so I would not count that.

There will be no original ways of life if they do not defeat the dead. They will simply be apart of the dead.

And I did not realize that stat on Starks. Nice.

 

[Effehello]

Completely off topic , but do any of you guys have a better quality version of this shot ?

Spoiler

Thanks.

 

[Boom]

So I imagine the Freys are going to take a collective **** when they find out the Stark's have retaken the North.

 

[Kane52630]

Completely off topic , but do any of you guys have a better quality version of this shot ?

Spoiler

Thanks.

Spoiler

 

[Lencho01]

...

This prediction made me laugh...

"Run Jon! Run!"
"Run! Run!"
"Wun wun!"
"Wun-Wun! Wun-Wun!"

 

[AVEITWITHJAMON]

Holy crap what a freaking episode! Best of the season and possibly best of the series, I really thought Tormund and maybe even Jon were going to die, it was so ****ing tense!

And the battle itself, wow, I thought they left it a little late for it to have an impact, boy was I wrong! Amazing stuff, I can't wait for the fall out of all of this.

 

[mr. peasant]

So I imagine the Freys are going to take a collective **** when they find out the Stark's have retaken the North.

Something worth pondering...

Yes, the Starks retook Winterfell. But both armies got decimated; meaning there's probably not much of a native army remaining in the North.

 

[InCali]

We know who Jon's mother is and have actually met her on the show.

"We" do? Did it say and I missed it or are you privy to some inside info?

 

[InCali]

Something worth pondering...

Yes, the Starks retook Winterfell. But both armies got decimated; meaning there's probably not much of a native army remaining in the North.

I wonder if the other families will change their minds now that dog food is dead and support the Starks.

 

[Roose Bolton]

Anyone who's read the books would have figured out who Jon's mother is, but in the show it's hasn't been brought up too much. We've seen her specifically this season and we'll get semi-confirmation next episode about his parentage.

 

[Reek]

Rooser! That's enough of your bile! Away with you!

 

[Havok83]

I just watched and bursted laughing as Ramsey's hounds ate him. That was a boss move by Sansa

Too bad about Rickon Stark but it seemed obvious. He never really served much purpose and I had a feeling Ramsey would kill him in front of Jon

 

[InCali]

Anyone who's read the books would have figured out who Jon's mother is, but in the show it's hasn't been brought up too much. We've seen her specifically this season and we'll get semi-confirmation next episode about his parentage.

I read the books, but that was years ago and I must have missed it.

 

[Roose Bolton]

I read the books, but that was years ago and I must have missed it.

Who do you think his mother is?

 

[InCali]

Who do you think his mother is?

I always wonder about Jon Snow's mother. Ned refused to discuss much about her. I wondered if she was a Targaryen or a Baratheon or.....

I think Jon's mother will probably end up being quite important as houses and families are such a big deal.

So, I figure he's from House Stark and Targaryen. It makes the most sense because he's clearly an important character and is clearly in some way tied to Daenerys.