Season 6, Episode 9 "Battle of the Bastards" Discussion Thread

[TheFuture]

i assume that bit is in the finale.. after [blackout] jon wins the battle, just because LF saves them doesn't necessarily make him the hero as Jon was fighting from the beginning for the Stark name. at least to the northerners it merits them respecting jon... If we are honest here, Robb had no business being King in the North either lol they gave him that title because Ned was killed... they give jon it for numerous reasons... a stark in their eyes, successor to robb (and thats true in the books as well), takes back winterfell... much of the north still remembers IMO and wants nothing to do with the southern king... so someone has to be king in the north, Jon is the best choice (although I really thought Sansa was going to be Queen in the North. [/blackout]

You're not expecting any skullduggery from LF? Maybe Gillen was genuine in that interview he gave where he said LF feels like he has to make amends.

 

[Reek]

with Sansa/Jon? Nah, I don't think he has any ill will towards either really... at least not during the battle... maybe once the KitN stuff happens... sure... but its a little late for more and more shenanigans like that with the end game coming...

 

[Pink Ranger]

My suspicion is that:

Spoiler

Jon and his ragtag army nobly throw themselves against Bolton lances, but they are defeated and must scatter and regroup into the woods. Meanwhile, Littlefinger and his knights attack the Boltons, but at Winterfell when most of the Bolton army is absent. Littlefinger takes the seat at Winterfell, giving him direct control of an actual kingdom, plus indirect control of another.

 

[Reek]

interesting theory... I'm glad there's a lot of different theories like that. littlefinger is a scandalous **** who should sit the iron throne

 

[Victarion]

If by sit you mean, impaled, yes he should.

 

[Matt]

I dont like it either.

Spoiler

What he does in the next episode is just D&D getting one more "**** you!" in before they have to kill him or lock him up. Subtlety and restraint just arent in D&D's toolbox. They havr to crank everything up to 20.

They didnt need to make him into a caricature of *****ey sadism, but they cant seem to resist. All he is missing is a mustache to twirl.

I don't get this complaint. The way you complain about D&D portraying Ramsay is exactly as he is in the books though. Its not like D&D took this complex, nuanced character and broke him down to the simplest common denominator. Ramsay is a pretty accurate translation. The difference is, here, by the merit of the change of medium, we get more of him. We are not just seeing him through the eyes of someone whom he tortured into submission. But its not like what we are seeing is inconsistent with his portrayal in the novels. Book Ramsay makes Theon walk around LITERALLY covered in feces in the books. If anything, show Ramsay has been toned down.

But yeah, this is not exactly a character written with a lot of "subtlety and restraint" to begin with. The way you guys are acting, you'd think book Ramsay is a character as complex as Holden Caulfield. Fact is, Ramsay is pretty much a caricature in the books as well.

 

[godisawesome]

Eh, I think Book Ramsay is just a tad bit more of a pure mad dog; show Ramsay displays more tactical cunning and intelligence, while book Ramsay is clearly nowhere near his father's level in any way, with even his constant companions working for his father under his nose. The show's even given him a slightly more psychological edge what with him basically using Pavlov to make a horn blast cause Theon to crap himself.

D&D have made him a more formidable adversary in the show, which I actually don't mind, but some of his latest victories have been a bit more handed down and perfunctory, and some of his crimes in this season strike as wastes of time. He killed Osha; big whoop, the sequence contained no surprises and didn't benefit either character, and could have been just covered with a quick shot of her corpse or a sequence where he interrogates her and Rickon to flesh out some more character work. He stabs his dad when he is embraced; poetic, but also kind of pathetic considering Roose should know not to approach the psychopath that way.

It's not really about screwing up the character, it's about kind of repeatedly under-shooting the high marks the show has for these characters and this world from previous seasons. Just like Arya having a painfully straight forward resolution to her Braavos story that runs off action movie logic instead of more realistic drama, having Ramsay get easy wins just feels kind of lacking compared to the previous work they've done.

 

[Matt]

Eh, I think Book Ramsay is just a tad bit more of a pure mad dog; show Ramsay displays more tactical cunning and intelligence, while book Ramsay is clearly nowhere near his father's level in any way, with even his constant companions working for his father under his nose. The show's even given him a slightly more psychological edge what with him basically using Pavlov to make a horn blast cause Theon to crap himself.

D&D have made him a more formidable adversary in the show, which I actually don't mind, but some of his latest victories have been a bit more handed down and perfunctory, and some of his crimes in this season strike as wastes of time. He killed Osha; big whoop, the sequence contained no surprises and didn't benefit either character, and could have been just covered with a quick shot of her corpse or a sequence where he interrogates her and Rickon to flesh out some more character work. He stabs his dad when he is embraced; poetic, but also kind of pathetic considering Roose should know not to approach the psychopath that way.

It's not really about screwing up the character, it's about kind of repeatedly under-shooting the high marks the show has for these characters and this world from previous seasons. Just like Arya having a painfully straight forward resolution to her Braavos story that runs off action movie logic instead of more realistic drama, having Ramsay get easy wins just feels kind of lacking compared to the previous work they've done.

I think a big part of that is necessity of adapting. In the books, we don't see Ramsay's point of view. All we really see is Theon's perspective on it. In the book, a character like Ramsay could get a victory and the reader may never see it. They may only learn of it through dialogue from another character on the other side of the world. Its actually a pretty clever device by Martin to get around writing resolutions to some of his characters, more complex plots, etc. The show doesn't have that luxury. Being a visual medium, they have to show the audience. Therefore, straight forward solutions are needed to advance the plot to where Martin is taking it.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Sophie Turner ‏@SophieT Jun 14

Guys not going to lie.... Saw episode 9. It's UNbelievable.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

HBO photos for "Battle of the Bastards":

Spoiler

 

[Kane52630]

#gethyped

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

So we've seen our heroes charging headlong into volleys of arrows, shieldwalls with spears or pikes, Jon on foot engaging mounted cavalry...(((sigh)))

They lack the numbers and a disciplined, cohesive army, so shouldn't they being playing this a little smarter and setting traps or ambushes on the field in some way and making Ramsay come to them? Seems the good guys here may lack a tactician like William Wallace!

I guess we'll find out for sure in a few days!

 

[BatmanBeyond]

I don't get this complaint. The way you complain about D&D portraying Ramsay is exactly as he is in the books though. Its not like D&D took this complex, nuanced character and broke him down to the simplest common denominator. Ramsay is a pretty accurate translation. The difference is, here, by the merit of the change of medium, we get more of him. We are not just seeing him through the eyes of someone whom he tortured into submission. But its not like what we are seeing is inconsistent with his portrayal in the novels. Book Ramsay makes Theon walk around LITERALLY covered in feces in the books. If anything, show Ramsay has been toned down.

But yeah, this is not exactly a character written with a lot of "subtlety and restraint" to begin with. The way you guys are acting, you'd think book Ramsay is a character as complex as Holden Caulfield. Fact is, Ramsay is pretty much a caricature in the books as well.

Someone with a lot more time on their hands than I have currently made quite a compelling case for Ramsay Bolton being a multi-faceted character in his own right in the books.

The one thing which has annoyed me about the way they've adapted the character in the show is that they've turned him into a bit of a Gary Stu, what with his infamous Ser Twenty of House Goodmen and his impressive shirtless combat skills. But it's not really a dealbreaker at the end of the day.

 

[Victarion]

In the books I just treated Ramsay like a symptom of a broken system. That's pretty much what I'm seeing from DnD. My critique of his material isn't the viciousness, just their mishandling of other parts of Ramsay's plot that better communicate my interpretation of the character.

I did find it fascinating that, shocking as Ramsay's ritual with women was in the books, it was him playing out the circumstances leading up to his conception. Except in Ramsay's interpretation there's no bastard born from it - the mother's killed.

 

[godisawesome]

I think a big part of that is necessity of adapting. In the books, we don't see Ramsay's point of view. All we really see is Theon's perspective on it. In the book, a character like Ramsay could get a victory and the reader may never see it. They may only learn of it through dialogue from another character on the other side of the world. Its actually a pretty clever device by Martin to get around writing resolutions to some of his characters, more complex plots, etc. The show doesn't have that luxury. Being a visual medium, they have to show the audience. Therefore, straight forward solutions are needed to advance the plot to where Martin is taking it.

I'm not arguing against the necessity of showing it in a visual medium; I'm arguing that the quality of the "straight forward" writing has decreased compared to its former standards. Ramsay Being a more intimidating villain is a good thing, but there's got to be more exciting or intriguing ways to get from point a to point b in the same amount of time.

Osha's death should either be done for proper drama or dealt with efficiently so we don't waste out time with what wrestling fans call predictable booking. You want the actress to say goodbye? Have an interrogation setting and not just a retread of her trick with Theon. Roose being a complete idiot and hugging the psychopath isn't needed if you want to have Ramsay copy the stance used to kill Robb; just have Roose turn his back on Ramsay for a moment, and when he turns back around, bam!, he's stabbed, and Ramsay congratulates him on having a son as he's dying.

It's not that their decisions aren't justified; it's that their execution has been consistently lower than normal. These guys have gone off Martin's script to produce good differences, or two pick a still intriguing shortcut. Taking the easy way out that even mainstream fans can find issues with isn't Game of Thrones style; or at least, it shouldn't be.

 

[Victarion]

To be fair - Roose had legitimized Ramsay and more or less was giving him free run of the North, and reminded Ramsay that he'd stopped short of killing him as an infant. He didn't have any reason to suspect Ramsay would turn on him.

 

[Ms. Marvel]

To be fair - Roose had legitimized Ramsay and more or less was giving him free run of the North, and reminded Ramsay that he'd stopped short of killing him as an infant. He didn't have any reason to suspect Ramsay would turn on him.

Interesting how that's seen as paternal in that world.

 

[TJByrum]

This is a good episode to kill some characters involved in the Northern plot. We have like 4 plots (Brienne/Pod, Sansa/LF, Jon, and Ramsay) combining.

 

[BestGirl]

All these spoilers are making me nervous. I thought we were in for a straightforward Stark victory, but maybe we're not? I don't dare read them.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

They are horribly outnumbered so there's really not much hope of victory and certainly no guarantee of one -not by their own means which are:

2000 wildlings + 1 giant
200 Hornwoods
143 Mazins
62 Mormonts (x10 per Lyanna Mormont)

I'm hoping the Manderlys and Reeds show up in the 11th hour just before or mid battle ([BLACKOUT]there was a rumored casting call for Lord Manderly I believe[/BLACKOUT]) but even their addition of maybe 1-2k more men won't match Ramsay's 5000 plus whatever the Karstarks and Umbers are adding -maybe 7-8K men total?

Jon's insistence on openly marching against those odds is fairly insane.

I hate the idea that Littlefinger and the Rohirrim must save them -ugh! And I suppose there's an outside chance the BwoB can teleport into this fray too...

 

[TJByrum]

They are horribly outnumbered so there's really not much hope of victory and certainly no guarantee of one.

2000 wildlings + 1 giant
200 Hornwoods
143 Mazins
62 Mormonts (x10 per Lyanna Mormont)

I'm hoping the Manderlys and Reeds show up in the 11th hour just before or mid battle ([BLACKOUT]there was a rumored casting call for Lord Manderly I believe[/BLACKOUT]) but even their addition of maybe 1-2k more men won't match Ramsay's 5000 plus whatever the Karstarks and Umbers are adding -maybe 7-8K men total?

Jon's insistence on openly marching against those odds is fairly insane.

And I hate the idea that Littlefinger and the Rohirrim must save them -ugh! And I suppose there's an outside chance the BwoB can teleport into this fray too...

Yeah and I believe the Wildling army is no match for the Bolton's. They're outmatched in weapons, armor, and perhaps morale.

And as much as I'd love to see the Brotherhood pop up here, with Clegane in tow, I don't see it.

I don't like the idea that Littlefinger is gonna be the hero (probably) but I do like the idea of the Knights of the Vale charging the Boltons. The name 'Knights of the Vale' just sounds awesome to me.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Unofficial, fan-made Game of Thrones: Ep. 9 Extended Trailer "Battle of the Bastards"
[YT]rHlN3ur8ilg[/YT]

 

[Victarion]

It helps that Bronze Yohn will be there, probably. I like him.

 

[Fist of Khonshu]

Oh yes and Jon's side has 1 Red Priestess/Sorceress -forgot to list that, but does Mel have anything left to offer?

 

[TJByrum]

Oh yes and Jon's side has 1 Red Priestess/Sorceress -forgot to list that, but does Mel have anything left to offer?

I've been a little disappointed that Jon hasn't consulted her further on anything. Like... she's the reason he's back. Beyond that, it was the Lord of Light's magic that brought him back. R'hllor is the reason he is alive, and he is the reason that Jon can help retake Winterfell, and he is the reason that Jon can try to defeat the White Walkers. But so far Jon hasn't consulted R'hllor's Red Priestess on... anything!

But Davos will probably be pissed at her anyway, since she convinced Stannis to burn Shireen. I don't know if she'll survive this episode, or maybe she will flee.

EDIT: I'm just saying, if Mel is capable of doing what she has done, and we've seen the proof of her doing it, then why doesn't anybody want more out of her?